OK, there's a discussion going on on another forum about this topic, and a few points have been brought up. I wanted to get your opinions.

One thought is you should have a long line so if you have to double-line, you still have enough line available. However, this means you have to spool out alot of line to get good pulling power from your winch.

The other thought is to have a short length on your winch (approx. 60') and keep the rest of the line as an extension for longer pulls. That way, you only have one or two layers on your drum, so you get better pulling power.

I have an 8274 and it holds 150', which is a pain in the ass. You guys have any comments, thoughts, or suggestions?

And if I do decide to shorten my line (steel cable), how or where should this be done? I mean, how do you finish the end off?

Hey Greg,

Yeah I read that thread too. I especially liked that prick who said he should be wiping his ass with his finger to save on toilet paper.

Does he get it or what?

Anyway.....on to your question.

I have removed 25 feet from all of my winch wire ropes and made extensions out of them. BTW this is common practice among the employees at WARN, and recommended by the service techs. How much wire rope you can 'fit' on your winch is marketing hype. *Trust* me.

I get this done at a rigging shop that specializes in cranes and heavy lifting equipment.

Basically the best thing you can do is to get the end swaged and have a thimble eye put in there so that you can run a shackle or a larger hook if you wanted. When the swage the end they unbraid the end that is cut flush, turn it back onitself, rebraid it with a loop eye and then compress a sleeve fitting under about 50 tons of compression force. It basically fuses the wires together and crimps it all at the same time. Let me take a pic of what I've had done and I'll post it later this morning.

Those guys that were talking about using the lower wraps of the wire to gain mechanical advantage were right on. The guy with his finger up his ass....well...you know what I think of that.

Oh, and another thing, electric winches aren't crap, and a 9000 lb. winch isn't 'small'.

Another thing you can do which is quite trick, is to make the drum longer. If you are running an 8274 you can make the drum as long as you want, space permitting, and then run a very long stretch of wire rope along that first wrap, gaining even more mechanical advantage.

This is really the only way that you can have both a very long wire rope on the drum *and* have the pulling power of the inner wraps. It's pretty cool actually.

I'll take some pics if you want 'em.

Originally posted by Greg Davis
One thought is you should have a long line so if you have to double-line, you still have enough line available. However, this means you have to spool out alot of line to get good pulling power from your winch.

The other thought is to have a short length on your winch (approx. 60') and keep the rest of the line as an extension for longer pulls. That way, you only have one or two layers on your drum, so you get better pulling power.

It depends on where you wheel. Here in the upper midwest you're always within 20' of an anchor point (unless you're stuck in a corn field, which I have been :rolleyes: ). Out west, you may have to spool out 100+' to find a hold fast.

So, being in the midwest, I'm a big fan of short winch lines - mine is 80' - so I can snatch block from up to ~40' away or single pull to ~80'. If I need more, out comes the extenson.

And if I do decide to shorten my line (steel cable), how or where should this be done? I mean, how do you finish the end off?

Depends on what you have available. You can saddle clamp it with hand tools (remember, never saddle a dead horse...) or swage it with a Nicopress tool or equiv if you can find one to borrow, which is the best way since the Nicopress fittings are proven to be stronger then the cable. Always use a good quality thimble where the cable bends through the hook.

keith the cable rigger
:usa:

That's the type of feedback I wanted. Thanks.

And yes Mike, I'd love to see some pics. Also, any other tricks for the 8274 that the Warn folks know of?

Yeah.

In Australia they take TWO motors for the 8274 and run them in-line.

Like an extra LOOOOONG motor.

Also, they have water jets that squirt on the motor during heavy pulls. Kind of a liquid cooled winch, if you will.

Which version of the 8274 do you have?

8274-50. 'Bout a year and a half old.

Damn, posted too soon.

So, excuse my ignorance here, but what does having two motors do? Increase the pulling power, or duty cycle?

I run about 175' of amsteel line on my 8274. In California, I've used almost the full length and then my extension also on several occasions. If I don't have enough strength to use just a single line on a short pull, I go ahead and double line. I even have enough for a triple line pull if absolutely necessary. I haven't run into a situation yet where I couldn't generate enough force to get out of the problem.

-John

Originally posted by Rover Addiction
I haven't run into a situation yet where I couldn't generate enough force to get out of the problem.

-John

Sounds like you have a new sig!

The dual motors on the 8274 increase both the pulling force and reduce stress on the motors generally. I'm not sure exactly what goes on with 2 motors being used, but it works and definitely looks cool.

Here's a pic of my 8274 and winch hook.

I have yet to re-spool the winch from doing Upper Helldorado last month! :flipoff2:

Here's another view, kind of a better shot of how the swage works.

In this pic you can plainly see that I actually *do* know how to spool on a wire rope! :flipoff2:

John, 175' of Amsteel! :eek: Nice thing is, with that line, no worries about how it is spooled.

Mike, any pictures of the dual motored 8274's? Now you've piqued my curiosity!

There are plenty of tricks for the 8274

- strengthening (bracing between the two spools)
- air pressurisation/cooling of the motor and gearbox
- water cooling (via water filled copper tubing wrapped around motor)
- oil drain and filler plugs fitted
- brake modifications
- drum swapped with a smaller diameter one from a Warn lowmount (like an XD9000) to give greater pull
- better seals

There's some photos at:
http://home.off-road.com/~landy/winchmods.htm
and
http://home.off-road.com/~bodgerover/bodgewinch.htm
and
http://www.offroad.au.com/tricks/WarnWinchMods.cfm

But the coolest modification is the Maxidrive 8274 hydraulic conversion. He puts a PTO driven continuously driven hydraulic pump on , then puts a hydraulic motor on instead of the POS electric that Warn uses. You end up with a variable drive lever (like an auto) that will pull 8000 pounds at maximum line speed of 73 fps or so. (which is normally the no weight line speed) - but as he says "it may shorten the winch life" :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

We are running an 8274 in the winch challenge and have modded it some, when you pull them apart they really are a POS. It would be good if Warn made a heavy duty version.

ct

I don't have any pics of the dual-8274. Sorry!

CT,

Those are some nice links to some sweet mods. We had been thinking of some kind of a guard to keep the line from wrapping outside the drum, but we hadn't gone as far in our thinking as you guys have actually done. The two threaded rods allowing you to square up the end plates is a really good idea. I like it so much I might have to rip it off!

There are several mods on those pages that are really good ideas.

You cannot imagine how many times I've tried to get the people that I know (pretty influential at Warn actually) to include some of the features found on the Series winches and the hydraulic winches on their RV winches.

Little known fact that there actually is a hydraulic motor from Warn that will fit on any of the 10-12K winches, and also I believe it will also fit on the 8274.

There are a lot of the commercial accesories/features that have been left out of the RV winch line on purpose. Price to the 'average' consumer will get too high. Remember, Warn is in it to make money and survive. IMO they (and other major manufacturers) plan on users like *you* to make the mods to whatever product X is to make it just what you want/need.

Watch what comes from Warn at the SEMA show. They are finally putting some of the commercial winch ideas into practice on the RV side. That's all I can say (but it is pretty trick).

Let's hear of some more cool mods from 'down under' that we usually don't see!

Keep 'em coming from out in your shed man!

Hi Michael

I'll see if I can dig out the pics and info on the maxidrive hydraulic 8274 tonight - it's one sweet piece of kit.

I know Warn have to build to a price - but I have seen so many knackered Warn recreational winches that haven't lasted long that I suspect there may be a market for something with a heavier duty build - particularly on the 8274 which is already twice the price of the lowmounts.

An aussie mag showed a picture of a knackered winch that had never been used! The owner had got water in it somehow (probably from wading or being at the beach) and then it sat on the truck for a year until he tried to use it. Rusted solid. Dow!

The thermal indicator on the new 9500 is a start - it will tell you when you are cooking it (which doesn't take much) but some decent seals, oil drain and filler plugs would be good. Guess we'll just keep tinkering with them - or another manufacturer will have a go. Over here the PTO and Hydraulics are getting more common - the heavier duty cycles are the main attraction.

ct

CT, thanks for all of the info.

See what happens when you ask a simple question? :)

Over here in the UK, 150' of cable is pretty much the norm. it's usefull as our terrain is pretty muddy, and usually in nice green pastures with trees about every 160'!! (well, it feels like it!)
most hardcore wheelers carry ground anchors, so we just bang in wherever we want to winch from.

someone here had an electric/hydraulic 8274. he runs a hydraulic company and rigged this thing up, he also made a split drum, where he welded 1 and a half drums together, with the 'end plate' thing about 1/3 of the way across the drum with a slot cut in it. that way he could have nice length of cable, but it was held in 2 spools (if that makes sense?) so one side was always fully wound, but the cable went through the gap in the middle and then wound on again, so there wasn't dozens of feet of cable reducing the line pull.

also some people run an air line (like off of the ARB tank) into the winch motor, via an axle breather tube, to pressurise the motor (only slightly more than atmospheric, using a regulator) to keep the water and nasties out. or just use the breather to vent to atmosphere like the camel tropheys do.

Hey CT....

what oil seals are available to fit the drum? or do you have to cut a groove with a lathe and make the seal up? and what brake mods can be done?

cheers

Jamie

Diesel Jim,

As CT is currently out on a Boat in the Hauraki Gulf watching the Americas cup challengers race and drinking free:beer: I will reply - yes I am as bitter as all hell about it too...:flipoff2:

We have sealed the motor with sealant rather than cut gaskets - it was cheaper and quicker as we are running short on time - and we were using up lots of favours to get the jobs done - so didn't want to abuse the generosity... We got the idea from people who had done it properly in Aussie - but we have never seen them for real only heard about it. We have airlines in and out of the motor housing which we are going to push air through via a second compressor to help cool the motor and to give it some positive pressure against water intrusion - we haven't had much time to experiment with it but the theory is pretty sound - we will be able to report back after the comp on whether it was sucessful or not.

The water cooling that Michael might have been referring to we saw on Kim Boltons GQ Patrol when he was over here - Basically it was copper pipe wrapped around the outside of the winch motor housing and then covered with heatshrink. It was then connected up to an onboard water tank with a submersable pump which kept cool water running around the motor.

The Brake on the 8274 has been known to fly off under extreme use as they are only held on with a small circlip - the aussies thread the shaft and put a washer and lock nut on instead - we have done our own version of this.

Just for good measure we slapped an R pin through the clutch lever shaft so it can't accidentally pop out of gear...

I like the idea of using a shorter cable - hadn't thought of that - simple and cheap :D

Might have to talk CT into that - or I could surprise him - where are those bolt cutters:flipoff2:

howdy boys

it's me the finger puppet. seems you quoted me wrong

as far as i am concerened your logic is as reasonable as me saying

"i suggest you wipe your ass with your finger then wash it off, that way you don't have to fuck with all that pesky paper."

i'll simplify it for you. cutting the rope is terrible advice for a newbie.

lets go over a few reasons you guys like the short leash.

1) you have baby winch that cannot do the task you want it to without being on the first wrap around the drum.

2)you are too lazy to rectify the problem buy setting up a block.

3)it has a tendancy of bunching to one side.

now what if you could have a winch with 150ft of cable, capable of extracting what you want without having to worry about what wrap it is on??

how about also no need for riging up air lines or bending up your old copper dope pipe to supply the motor with coolant ?

anyone interested? no? go big or go home? warn me if i've gone too far...

rd

"electric winches aren't crap"

Spoken like a true warn rep :flipoff2:

I can't have less than 125 and usually have at least an extra 100 and usually an extra 250 of cable just in case.

Ron

Originally posted by evilfij
"electric winches aren't crap"

Spoken like a true warn rep :flipoff2:

I can't have less than 125 and usually have at least an extra 100 and usually an extra 250 of cable just in case.

Ron

hey ron can ya gimme a hand, im stuck out here in MA. just tie one end of the cable to a messenger pigeon and send him my way :D ill call you when i want you to spool in/out :flipoff2:

Hmmm, interesting RD now decides to show up and graciously give us some of his wisdom. Let's see how it stacks up.

"howdy boys it's me the finger puppet."

So, he acknowledges having his finger stuck up his ass.

"seems you quoted me wrong"


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
as far as i am concerened your logic is as reasonable as me saying

"i suggest you wipe your ass with your finger then wash it off, that way you don't have to fuck with all that pesky paper."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok, I'll admit, I quoted you wrong. BUT, I paraphrased you correctly.

"i'll simplify it for you. cutting the rope is terrible advice for a newbie. "

He criticizes the idea of cutting the rope, when we have never advocated 'cutting the rope'. I only stated that I 'remove' a length of rope from my winch, then go on to explain the proper way to re-swage the end. RD offers no such wisdom of why it's 'terrible advice for a newbie'. He implies that for someone who is NOT a newbie that it might not be a bad idea, but for a 'newbie' it is. Hmmmm, what are those reasons eh RD?

"lets go over a few reasons you guys like the short leash."

He then goes on to imply that he knows the reasons why we advocate shortening the wire rope.

"1) you have baby winch that cannot do the task you want it to without being on the first wrap around the drum."

Not true. I pulled my Serious One up the waterfall on UH on perhaps the 8th or 9th wrap. Additionally I have an M10, two Series 12 commercial winches as well as a 9000i. None of those would be considered a 'baby' winch (nice name calling BTW, sticks and stones....), and all of them have always done the task I've put to them, generally not being on the first wrap of the drum.

"2)you are too lazy to rectify the problem buy setting up a block."

How does RD know I'm 'too lazy' or that I've never 'set up a block'? Additionally, how does he know that I've ever had a problem? Didn't know you were watching over my shoulder all those times RD. I sure could have used your ageless wisdom.

"3)it has a tendancy of bunching to one side."

The wire rope bunching up on one side of the drum or the other has no bearing on how long the wire is. Short or long, a rope on a drum will ALWAYS follow the path of least resistance.

"now what if you could have a winch with 150ft of cable, capable of extracting what you want without having to worry about what wrap it is on?? "

I'd say that I was the coolest kid on the block, could give everyone else that didn't have exactly what I had, or thought the way I thought, undue criticism, and that my name was Kyle. Which winch was it that you said you had RD?

"how about also no need for riging up air lines or bending up your old copper dope pipe to supply the motor with coolant ?"

Hmmmm, haven't done it yet, but that's not to say that modifying an existing product isn't a good idea. To criticize others for doing exactly what you have done yourself is hypocritical and ignorant. You running stock tires on that Disco? Woodhead shocks? Factory springs? What about even putting the winch on your truck in the first place? Isn't the truck supplied to you without one? Doesn't that tell you that it should be good enough without it? Man, your line of logic just doesn't follow true from conversation to conversation. Maybe if you subjected yourself to the same criteria and criticism you so easily spew onto others you'd start to think and act differently.

"anyone interested? no?"

What's the question again? You've asked so many good ones I have a hard time deciding which ones I am interested in and which ones I'm not.

"go big or go home?"

No, just go home. I liked you better when you had your thumb up your ass.

"warn me if i've gone too far... "

I don't think you've gone too far. Freedom of expression is a wonderful thing. I just don't think that I need to agree to what you've said.

I do appreciate the fact that you came here to post. Kyle can just stay on D-web and continue to think he's the big man on campus. Fine with me. I especially like how he started throwing expletives around. Man I wish he was as smart as he thinks he is. He'd be a really cool guy to have around.

I'm flattered you and Kyle think enough of me to bad mouth me. *blush*

Back to the topic...

Jamie - to do the seals is a machining job (good luck!) , the brake mods are just something to stop the circlip flying off under shock loading. Welding or tapping a bolt on will do it.

The specs on the maxidrive hydraulic are:
16cc displacement/rev pump (a Cross brand I think) direct coupled to the PTO putting out 21 hp (max continuous rating). Compare that to the standard 4.6hp Warn!

The pump on the winch is a Volvo F11-5 attached using a special adapter. A variable control means you can vary the speed in or out progressively giving a good degreeof control.

The speed is actually 15m/min at 3500 kg pull. (about 45 fpm at 8000 lb)

ct

I *think* the pump is a cross. I have one from GBR which is a cross, and I use to to feed 2 MM winches, one front, one rear. I've not measured the fpm but it's ok.

Merv.

Trying not to step on anyone's toes here, especially as I have next to no winching experinece, but lots of rigging experience and I've just recently lost my newbie status here. I'm also catching a cold and having a bad morning (damned real estate developers-glad I have good lawyers).

I really think that this is an issue of experience in mechanical advantage rigging, rather than an issue of how long one's winch line should be.

IMHO, the actual line atttached to the winch should only be as long as the least distance you will actually have to move the vehicle being recovered. I say this with some limited knowledge and experience of winching, and none of it good.

If an individual has some basic rigging knowledge, they can do wonders with short lengths of rope, wire rope, cable, chain, twisted pieces of bark, etc.

With this in mind, we only need enough cable (on the winch) to wrap the spool a single time, plus a vehicle length. Now, if one has this setup, they are almost always pulling on the highest mechanical advantage of the winch (single wrap, plus the additional vehicle length). Yes, this does require us to carry along a roll of auxiliary cable and rigging ancillaries, but we should have few limits on the amount of this we can carry.

While it may be time consuming to rig and re-rig for the short length of cable, have we not extended the life of our winch by only winching on the single wrap? Also, how often do we need to winch long distances, compared to when we need tremendous amounts of pulling power to extricate ourselves from a bog? I do understand that in some situations, it may be necessary to winch oneself up an obstacle, but I use my truck differently than most.

I am a huge fan of mechanical advantage. In my rescue training courses, I have stopped instructors in their tracks by the simple statement "If it requires less muscular force from me to extricate this victim, is it not to everyone's advantage"? Just recently, I needed to move a heavy structure onto my trailer for transport and thence to its final resting place. I could not budge it with no mechanical advantage. Afte rigging it with only two pulleys and three carabiners, my wife single-handedly righted the structure and drew it onto the trailer. The same can and should be done in vehicle recovery situations.

Flame suit on.

Paul

Originally posted by nosivad_bor


lets go over a few reasons you guys like the short leash.

1) you have baby winch that cannot do the task you want it to without being on the first wrap around the drum.

:laughing:

Yes, I freely admit I HAVE a girly winch :girly:
It's a StuporWinch X9000 :crybaby:

But, it's successfully pulled a 20,000 lb loaded flatbed out of frame deep mud without going :nuke: or :barf: or even getting too :mad3:

And with only 80' of Amsteel on the spool

I think one of the BIGGEST errors made by recreational winchers is using the useless power cable that vendors ship with the things. StuporWinch sends #2 AWG ! :rasta: :shaking:

Yank that small crap off and use at least 1/0. I'm using 2/0 welding cable (100's of strands) and get very little voltage drop at the winch motor. With #2, you're probably running under 10V on the motor during a hard pull - no wonder the damn motors :nuke:

keith
:usa:
...my day to use smilies

Originally posted by PTSchram

I am a huge fan of mechanical advantage.

Well said Paul.
Mechanical advantage rules.

keith
:usa:

I have always marveled at folks who have a pile of pulleys and miles of rope, yet they are content with 3 or 4:1 ratios when they can easily go to 7 or 10:1. Not having all of the upper body strength of some, I don't want to have to work any harder than I have to. Given the incredibly low cost of high quality pulleys (hell, I don't pay $20 for mine and they're rated at 9,000 lbs and if I'm rigging them together, no individual pulley sees more than a few thousand pounds applied to itself), note to self, avoid the aluminum sheaves, winch cables score them pretty good!

Shit, give me nice bear paw plate and a few pulleys and carabiners and a few healthy lads, we don't need no stinking winch! Oops, need beer for afterwards!

thanx Keith.

Paul
Waiting on the delivery of 60 meters of 1/2" static kern-mantle rope-yee ha!

Merv,

If you bought the Maxi-drive PTO and pump from GBR it is a Cross 40 series gear pump rated at 10 GPM flow max.

BTW, how is your setup holding up?

Busto

Yes, it's a series 40 pump. I got it all from Bill, and it's working fine. there are a few different series 40's (I think) and I figured mine is running up to 17gpm at 3000 rpm.

Someone else posted that you can only get 3.5 gpm through the MM spool valve, and I think that is correct so you do need to redo all the spool valves, and use 1/2" hoses. then it works a treat.

We were wheeling on Sunday and I managed to stall it. First time ever. I have the spool valve pressure releave valve set to 1800 psi, and am wondering about going up from there to 200psi. We used a pully block and it was fine, but I have never before had to use a pully block for strenght, I've only used them for managing awkward angles and the like.

Chris V was out with us, and his comment was that it pulled fine, but was ver difficult to use. Winching now involves putting the transfer case to N, selecting 5th gear, holding a few revs (hand throttle next mod), and using the spool valve to pull. AND you have 2 gear levers outside. As an electric winch guy he found it a lot of hastle.

Merv.

Thanks for the info Merv. I have a 7 gpm rod in my spool so I am flow limited, but my spool pressure relief valves are set to 2250psi - no stalls so far. I do dislike the MM valves, and am thinking hard about the Warn 8274 hydraulic modification.

I recommend you look at Morse controls vernier throttle control. It is basically a screw knob that lets you adjust engine speed with high precision, but it also has a large red button that can be used to release the hold speed instantly or to do coarse adjustments. An aquaintance actually set his up as a poor man's cruise control (just don't knod off!)

Have you ever blown a seal in the winch? 2250 seems high?

I have not blown any seals (yet), but I have not stalled or come close to stalling the winch motor so the system hasn't built to max pressure. My spool has a 2700 or 2800 psi working pressure. And I believe the pump and motor are rated to 3000 psi http://www.crossmfg.com/gearpump.html

Anyone running a straight mechincal winch or just hydro's?
I recently picked up a 10k Ramsey PTO from a tow truck and love it. It has a 12" wide drum so the first wrap holds 150% more line then my old Koenig.
I had thought about getting a hydro pump to run off a PTO, but found a 2 spd PTO and the winch real cheep :)
Pete

ill take a monster winch with a good amount of cable on it to save me the most amount of time, energy, and thought possible. huge PTO winch with 150' of cable and a 100' extension or two and im set.

I have a PTO koenig and a crank driven koenig. Actually there is a ramsey that we are trying to adapt to a koenig pto as well.

I want one for the wife's disco as well. PTO rules :)

Ron