alright jackasses, how does it work I know that the box routes hydro pressure does it do it all the time? how does it know right from left? someone explain this to me.. I's just curious..

oh yeah

:flipoff2:

No It only does it when it wants to... :flipoff2:
How does it know right from left??? It doesn't... it turns wherever it feels like it, whenever it feels like it, but it's so much fun people pay $$$ for that new element of danger. :flipoff2:

Yes. All the time. One hose gets pressure=it goes one way. The other hose gets pressure=it goes the other way. You are the one that is supposed to know right from left.
:D

Thanks..

JAckass!

Guess I gotta be Specific or you guys will go on all night...

when does the Ram get excited? thatis is it always appling pressure or kicks in when the steer bawx cant take it anymore?

Hydraulic lines are tapped into each side of the pressure circuit that already exists in the pwr steering box. The input from the steering shaft ( your steering shaft ) twists a little torsion rod in there if steering forces are high - applying pressure to an assist piston in the box, on the side you are steering towards. The Rock Ram splits off some on that pressure (and flow) to the ram on the axle. This helps in a several ways:
One it increases the surface area pressure is being applied to ( the piston in the box plus the piston in the ram )
Two the ram has a better leverage than the steering box does
Three it takes a lot of the stress off the pitman arm/steering box/frame - theoreticly you could "boost" the power steering system already in place, but it would then tend to tear steering boxes off the frame or bend steering components.

Now, there is a pop-off valve in the system, that the swoosh noise as pressure is bypassed when you turn the wheels against steering lock (or a big rock). I would love a system that used that pressure to supply the rock-ram, and only used the directional pressure to operate a diverter valve to send the bypass pressure to one side of the valve or the other. This would make the ram "passive" in normal hiway use, sort of making the ram just a damper. The advantage would be to have the ram not steal volume away from the normal assist in "normal" conditions. I have heard ram assist can be rather slow to respond due to the extra volume of fluid required, causing it to be hard to get the wheel to turn fast enough for a tight country road, for instance.

I could prolly' have explained that better, but that is the basics.
Erik:)

so then where exactly would be the best place to tap into a steering box. I have seen both lines come off of the top and have seen lines coming out of the end cap and all kinds of crazy mess. How do i know which way is best for me?
:confused:

It depends on the steering gear Box that you run.
That is the factor in where you will drill and tap.

Sarcastro said:

when does the Ram get excited?

When the Ewes go in heat! :flipoff2: Wow, gota teach the Birds and te Bees here now :eek:


LOL, just another smart ass comment. :flipoff2:
You set yourself up for that one, couldnt resist. :D

But really, isn't a Saginaw steering box better to do this with than the others? I dont know how the Celica and Kick steering boxes hold up.
The other question I think would be ; Whats the best Pump for this application? How much preasure is best to make the Ram work efficiently?

Originally posted by Orionn
Sarcastro said:
But really, isn't a Saginaw steering box better to do this with than the others? I dont know how the Celica and Kick steering boxes hold up.
The other question I think would be ; Whats the best Pump for this application? How much preasure is best to make the Ram work efficiently?

The Saginaw box is the most popular because it has a removable valve assembly. It's very easy to tell where the L-R high pressure outputs from the valve assembly is and tap thru the housing at those points. All this can be done without any major disassembly of the steering box.

On any power steering box, there is a piston which assists in moving the sector shaft. The far end of that piston (opposite the valve) is fed with a passage that runs from the valve to the end of the box (near the cap). If you tap the cap, than that passage has to feed the box and the ram. It's a flow restriction.

I've has several people look at a Sag box that I've tapped and notice that the hole I drill is under 1/4". They don't understand why I don't drill it any larger for more flow to the ram. What they don't realize is that inside a Saginaw valve the high pressure outputs come thru four 1/16" holes! That's right, all the flow to the box and the ram goes thu the equivalent of 1/80th of a sqin or the same area as a 1/8" drill! The valve was designed to feed the volume of the box, never the box and a ram. That's the reason behind the slow steering response and why I don't run a power steering box, just the ram.

Also, Eric noted the pressure bypass in the system. Something to remember is this pressure bypass is located inside the pump. When the pressure rises above a safe level, fluid is bypassed from the HP output back to the input. Effectively short circuiting the pump. The important thing to remember is, when this happens there is no flow THRU the pump, thus little new fluid coming in to COOL the pump! If it stays in this condition very long, it will cook the fluid and fry the pump!

The most common pump to use is a Saginaw TC pump. It's readily available (many junk yard cars, and also race car shops), it's small, easy to mount, and usually used with a remote reservoir. They are capable of 1400 psi, and decent flow. A quick and simple modification is usually used to help the flow for systems that have too much volume...

So,Okcrawler, is it possible to do the system as a bypass acitivated circuit? Can the bypass be tapped as an activator to a circuit to operate the ram, or does it even matter. Is the main issue the volume required to fill both pistons? So maybe not a top psi issue but a volume issue, so a much bigger pump? Dual pumps? I just think the power steering should be able to keep up with as fast as you can spin the wheel, not act like the engine has died when you turn faster than it can react.
Ideas?

Originally posted by Erik Dossett
So,Okcrawler, is it possible to do the system as a bypass acitivated circuit? Can the bypass be tapped as an activator to a circuit to operate the ram, or does it even matter. Is the main issue the volume required to fill both pistons? So maybe not a top psi issue but a volume issue, so a much bigger pump? Dual pumps? I just think the power steering should be able to keep up with as fast as you can spin the wheel, not act like the engine has died when you turn faster than it can react.
Ideas?

The TC pump's I've had apart, the bypass is imbedded w/in the casting. No real way to tap it, or direct it to the ram (no LR direction).

You can help the speed, by modifying the pump. It does help, but the valve design will be the ultimate limit. I've not seen anyone try to modify/enlarge the passage in the valve because that would change it's timing and basically screw the whole thing up. I'm not saying it's not possible, just complicated.

My personal belief is to do away with the PS box. Let a ram do all the work. Basically a full hydro setup, with mechanical backup and feedback (thus DOT legal). The valve can feed a PS box or a Ram, just not both! Several race car manufacturers make stand alone valve bodies that can be mounted in front of the mechanical steering box. That feeds the ram.

IMO the Ram should do all the work for several reasons. It puts the load on the axle, not on the frame. You always have full turning (lock to lock) regardless of articulation of the axle (drag link angle due to drop changes leverage of the PS box). If the ram is placed on the tie rod, it reduces stress on the knuckle by sharing the load from tire to tire. One knuckle never supports more than it's own load.

The main draw back being, protecting the ram and the hydro lines. Both easily dealt with, and spares can also be carried.

so sort of like the old 70's Fords, which had a manual box, and a spool valve in the drag link, which directed flow the ram on the axle. Too bad those are completely un-rebuildable/no parts available units - I could get one by converting my buddies '75 F250 to normal pwr steering. He'd love to be free of it, leaky old piece of crap that it is.
Erik

erik here are the p#'s for the ford parts 1971-1974 E series:
pump seal kit 7-148
ball stud mounting kit 7-160
piston end mtg kit 7-159
ball stud mtg kit 7-220
all these p#'s are NAPA #'s and are good as of today
F series here:
1973-1974
pump seal kit w/spool valve#spa-ab,aj 7-148
major seal kit 7-147
completye seal kit 7-325
lower seal kit 7-212
adjustable seal plug kit 7-218
by the way these are the same p#s for the thunderbird,country squire,c.vic,galaxie,ltd
except for the pump seal kit which is 7-148 1965-1974 with a few exceptions(429 eng etc...)[SI
so get it awn!!l8tr,scott

Now yer talking! so ford this type of system in production? wow! I definetly have to goto the junk yahd now!!


this is interesting, but back to the saginaw steering setup

does anyone know of a sag box that fits on the inside of the frame, just like the Zuki box? what does it come off of?

Originally posted by Orionn
Sarcastro said:



When the Ewes go in heat! :flipoff2: Wow, gota teach the Birds and te Bees here now :eek:


LOL, just another smart ass comment. :flipoff2:
You set yourself up for that one, couldnt resist. :D

But really, isn't a Saginaw steering box better to do this with than the others? I dont know how the Celica and Kick steering boxes hold up.
The other question I think would be ; Whats the best Pump for this application? How much preasure is best to make the Ram work efficiently?



Yeah I walked into that one..

Mark (OK) explained well enough on the operation one thing to keep in mind is if you are running less then 44's stay with a ram with a 1-1/2 bore that will have better responce then a 2" bore ram. If you do a search in the general 4x4 disc. theres alot of info on hydro assist and full hydro.

I know most of the Zuk guys run Celica stuff if they run toyots steering, but if you have an IFS box in your zuk, and want hydro assist cheap, run a search in the toy forum... there have been a couple of excellent threads on this in the past.

Or E-mail scott ellinger (tech@rockstomper.com I think) and he should be able to tell you. He's done it before.