I am building my first jeep and want to build it right. My plans are a 53CJ3A tub on a 76 Cj5 frame from MAtkins, 4.3 litter Vortec V-6 from a 96 S-10. I am also going to be running a 4l60 tranny and a Atlas 3.8-1 X-case. I will have 2.5 SOA and running Danna 44 front and Ford Nine inch rear. I am also thinking of 35 or 38 tires not sure what will fit. My main concern is if I need to run a high pinion rear end and or if I should go with no lift on the springs. I would appreciate any info on any of these components.
Thanks

Needs more length, and less height. If you are gonna run a HP in the rear, it should be a 60, IMO.

Thanks for the help I will consider a HP 60.

yeah what the lame guy said. if you move the rear axle back some you will gain to things: a longer wheel base(good) and a longer driveline hence a better angle(great). That way you will less likely have to run a high pinion rear axle, and your departure angle will be awesome. If you are going to run 38's you will need to do this anyway. Then just cut the shit out of the tub so you can clear the big tires with little lift and your center of gravity will be low. I would stick with the 9 inch for ground clearance reasons. they can be set up to be almost as strong as a 60 they just have a smaller ring gear. running the V6 you shouldn't really need the bulk of a 60 unless you like mashing the skinny pedal. Move the front axle out as well. then you will be just about to CJ7 length, and be closer to having a real jeep :flipoff2:

Joe

SKIP THE FRAME TO MUCH $ BUY A BROKE DOWN 83-85 TOY 4X4 AND USE ITS FRAME AND AXLES PLENTY STRONG AND HAVE NEW BODY MOUNTS MADE THATS WHAT I AM DOING EAISY TO MOD AND UGET BETTER SPRINGS ALLREADY SPRUNG OVER!!! IF IT IS TOO LONG JUST SHORTEN IT IN THE REAR MY 2 CENTS

Unless you've already bought a bunch of parts, I'd take a close look at Jeep dilema (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=90442)

Sounds like a great starting place considering what you want...

I'm with Beatin It... If I was to build a flatty I'd use the entire drivetrain from a toyota mini-truck. The stock 4 banger is light little and plenty strong with good gearing. Oh and speaking of gearing, you cann't beat a Toyota when is comes to that, low gear transfer sets in the 4.7 range and doublers:eek: The axles are plenty strong for 35's. Keep it small and light, just add some wheelbase to make it climb better:D

Hey thanks for all the feed back keep it coming. The only problem is that I have the frame got it cheap from a buddy 300 bucks, I have the engine and tranny got them free a guy at work toatled the S-10.

You do anything with a Matkins frame and you will be working your @ss off. Been there and done that one.

F the toy frame.

Flatties are straight frame rails. Plenty easy to fab up, but he already has one. Maybe $100 in material.

all sounds good, but really tall for 35's maybe alright with 38x14.50's or bigger and the wheelbase will be really short!

Originally posted by BEAT IT
BUY A BROKE DOWN 83-85 TOY 4X4 AND USE ITS FRAME AND AXLES PLENTY STRONG


Great idea, someone has to start using all of those POS front axles that the Toyota guys have been dumping for Dana's over the last 5 years.
Just what Im looking forward to hearing from a Jeep possibly running JackHammer, "Damn it, I busted another Birfield".
Also Toyota T cases cant be twin sticked, thats something to look forward to, once you realize how beneficial cutting brakes are.

Dont get me wrong, I have nothing against Toyotas, but this guy sounds like he wants to build something a lot more capable than a stock Toyota.

Toyota's can be twin sticked, check the tech here on it, plus the front axles are plenty strong with smaller engines, just add some Longfields. I'd use them if I had them, plus like you said the Toy guys are jumpimg on the Dana's so you can buy them already set-up for cheap most of the time. Great choice for a light weight buggy.

Originally posted by Jayrockn7
Toyota's can be twin sticked

Bullshit, if you can disconnect the rear driveshaft, so that it can be used to cut with the brakes, then someone should tell Marlin, because he is supposed to be working on solving that problem.

The guy comes on the board and asks how a 4.3 with an Atlass will work as a drivetrain, to possibly run 38" tires, and you think a stock Toyota drivetrain is an equivelant,...what the fawk are you smokin, because I want some for the next time I have to drive a rental car and i want it to seem like a Farrari.

I am with H8 on this one. 44 and a 9 are a great combo. It's funny we have a FJ40 that we compete in the legends class with. First we broke the stock birfields. Changed to Newfields, Broke those, Found a Warn birfield eliminater put CTM's- No problems
A 4.3 makes 190hp with a Atlas transfer case and even 35" tires witch we no will not stay:rolleyes: he will still brake birfields. Go Dana or go home

Originally posted by 53CJ3aFlattie
I would appreciate any info on any of these components.
Thanks
You fawkin comp funkies think you know everything:rolleyes: , I don't know if the twin stick set-up for the toyotas can independently run the front axle but I do know you can get 2-low rear, and for most wheelers that's enough:flipoff2: HE didn't ask if his set-up was perfect for rock-crawling comp's, if he did then your comments might have some backbone to them. All I was trying to say, like in my first post, was that for a flatfender jeep= small and light, you don't have to have super ultimate Dana alloy shafted CTM axles with lots of HP to push them:flipoff2: Get you ass back in the woods and do some real trail driving, this comp shit is going to everybodies head.

Originally posted by Jayrockn7

You fawkin comp funkies think you know everything:rolleyes: , I don't know if the twin stick set-up for the toyotas can independently run the front axle but I do know you can get 2-low rear, and for most wheelers that's enough:flipoff2: HE didn't ask if his set-up was perfect for rock-crawling comp's, if he did then your comments might have some backbone to them. All I was trying to say, like in my first post, was that for a flatfender jeep= small and light, you don't have to have super ultimate Dana alloy shafted CTM axles with lots of HP to push them:flipoff2: Get you ass back in the woods and do some real trail driving, this comp shit is going to everybodies head.


What works on the rocks in the comps, also works well on the trails. Get out onto some trails that are tougher than a dirt road with a few hills, and you will understand why we build our rigs to withstand punishment.:flipoff2:
Now pay attention, and try to follow me here, The guy is from Stockton Ca, where his local trails are gonna be the Rubicon, Fordyce, and quick runs down to the Hammers in Johnson Valley.
He said he wants to build it right the first time, which is why he is thinking about using the best T case on the market, along with a Fuel injected 6 that puts out 200 plus HP.
Now you jump in, on a Jeep Board and seem to think that a Stock Toyota drivetrain is gonna be better than his choice of drivetrain. You are wrong, and if you got out of the forest trails and onto the rocks, you would understand why.
1st: The carbuerated stock 22R that would be found on Toyotas with a straight axle, are not nearly good enough at running on angles to be considered a good swap.
2nd: the stock Toyota front axle, will not handle 38" tires as he has suggested he would consider
3rd, The Toyota drivetrain is not nearly as strong, and does not have the other performance advantages of an Atlass, (whish is his 1st choice.
4th: Putting Toyota drive train under a flatty would nearly be sacriledge (however i would still consider it, if it had any merrit,...but it doesnt).
Now try and get over the fact that your lack of experience on extreme trails, has left you without enough knowledge to know what does and doesnt work well when wheeling on them, and you may understand, why swapping stock Toyota drive gear under a flatty meant for west coast trails, has not been well recieved by every member of an extreme JEEP BOARD. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by 53CJ3aFlattie
I am also thinking of 35 or 38 tires not sure what will fit.

I don't know how you are going to make them fit, but if you can make it happen, I would say go with 38 tires so that you can have the same number of tires on each side.:p

Sean

I am also thinking of 35 or 38 tires not sure what will fit. I don't know how you are going to make them fit, but if you can make it happen, I would say go with 38 tires so that you can have the same number of tires on each side.

Have you spoken to Daniel about this?!?:eek:

What works on the rocks in the comps, also works well on the trails. Get out onto some trails that are tougher than a dirt road with a few hills, and you will understand why we build our rigs to withstand punishment.
U Da Man!!
H8mondays I saw you today at Shingle Springs Chevy. I work at Honda, and the Yellow cought my eye. You gotten pulled over yet? Mines on the verge of getting impounded!:(

Originally posted by bigblackjeep

U Da Man!!
H8mondays I saw you today at Shingle Springs Chevy. I work at Honda, and the Yellow cought my eye. You gotten pulled over yet? Mines on the verge of getting impounded!:(


I havent had any trouble with the local law yet,(Ive been living in Shingle Springs since June)
I have been stopped once in the last few months, and it was to discuss SOA suspension and stretching the wheel base.
My girlfriend drives it everyday, and she hasnt had any probs at all.
I will bolt some mud flaps and fender flares onto the rig today since winter is comming.
I put the soft top back on it yesterday.

Originally posted by H8monday



Get out onto some trails that are tougher than a dirt road with a few hills, and you will understand why we build our rigs to withstand punishment.:flipoff2:
. You are wrong, and if you got out of the forest trails and onto the rocks, you would understand why.
1st: The carbuerated stock 22R that would be found on Toyotas with a straight axle, are not nearly good enough at running on angles to be considered a good swap.
2nd: the stock Toyota front axle, will not handle 38" tires as he has suggested he would consider
3rd, The Toyota drivetrain is not nearly as strong, and does not have the other performance advantages of an Atlass, (whish is his 1st choice.
4th: Putting Toyota drive train under a flatty would nearly be sacriledge (however i would still consider it, if it had any merrit,...but it doesnt).
Now try and get over the fact that your lack of experience on extreme trails, has left you without enough knowledge to know what does and doesnt work well when wheeling on them, and you may understand, why swapping stock Toyota drive gear under a flatty meant for west coast trails, has not been well recieved by every member of an extreme JEEP BOARD. :rolleyes:

FAWK YOU BITCH, I LIVE 1-1/2 HOURS FROM TELLICO, IT'S PRACTICALLY MY BACKYARD, NOT TO MENTION PLACES LIKE MONTEAGLE, AND A LOCAL SECRET- WINDROCK. SO I HAVE PLENTY OF HARDCORE EXPERIENCE WITH ROCKS AND TERRAIN A HELL ALOT OF HARDER THEN YOU WEST COAST BITCHES DRIVE ON. WE GOT ROCKS JUST AS BIG AS ANYTHING THE FAMOUS RUBICON HAS BUT WITH INCHES OF SLIMY MUD COVERING IT, COME DOWN HERE AND SEE HOW MUCH OF YOUR COMP EXPERIENCE GETS YOU DOWN THE TRAIL. I KNOW PLENTY OF GUYS THAT RUN TOY'S JUST FINE WITH 35'S AND MAKE JEEP KNOW IT ALL'S LOOK STUPID, EFI CAN BE SWAPPED ON A 22R EASILY- 22RE ALSO NOT VERY HARD TO FIND. YEAH I GUESS YOU CONSIDER YOUR RIG STILL A JEEP WITH IT'S 5.0 AND CHEVY 14B REAREND:rolleyes: THIS LITTLE TOYOTA TREND STARTED BY PEOPLE LOOKING TO HAVE LIGHT WEIGHT RIGS TO RUN MOAB AND IT'S TAKEN OFF BECAUSE IT WORKS, OOH I GUESS YOUR COMP'S HAVEN'T TAUGHT YOU THAT YET, BUT THEN AS MUCH AS YOU ROLL YOU MUST KNOW EVERYTHING RIGHT, ALL HALE IT'S H8MONDAY KING OF THE JEEP ROLL-OVER :flipoff2:

Well you seem really addament about the Toyota drive train being the best way to go, and since you live 1 1/2 hours away from Telico, I dont feel that Im qualified to debate the matter with you any longer.
By the way, I have only rolled 4 times in 7 competitions over the last 1 1/2 years. At the last comp we had no rollovers, on a very tough course, and went on to the finals along with Mike Shaffer, Chris Durham, Walker Evans, Jason Bunch, John Hall, Terry Sheetz, and Troy Faber. There is a learning curve to competition rock crawling, and we are getting better with every event..

By the way, when we are able to get together on a trail somewhere, please feel free to greet me with "Fawk you Bitch".

Originally posted by Jayrockn7


FAWK YOU BITCH, I LIVE 1-1/2 HOURS FROM TELLICO, IT'S PRACTICALLY MY BACKYARD, NOT TO MENTION PLACES LIKE MONTEAGLE, AND A LOCAL SECRET- WINDROCK. SO I HAVE PLENTY OF HARDCORE EXPERIENCE WITH ROCKS AND TERRAIN A HELL ALOT OF HARDER THEN YOU WEST COAST BITCHES DRIVE ON. WE GOT ROCKS JUST AS BIG AS ANYTHING THE FAMOUS RUBICON HAS BUT WITH INCHES OF SLIMY MUD COVERING IT, COME DOWN HERE AND SEE HOW MUCH OF YOUR COMP EXPERIENCE GETS YOU DOWN THE TRAIL. I KNOW PLENTY OF GUYS THAT RUN TOY'S JUST FINE WITH 35'S AND MAKE JEEP KNOW IT ALL'S LOOK STUPID, EFI CAN BE SWAPPED ON A 22R EASILY- 22RE ALSO NOT VERY HARD TO FIND. YEAH I GUESS YOU CONSIDER YOUR RIG STILL A JEEP WITH IT'S 5.0 AND CHEVY 14B REAREND:rolleyes: THIS LITTLE TOYOTA TREND STARTED BY PEOPLE LOOKING TO HAVE LIGHT WEIGHT RIGS TO RUN MOAB AND IT'S TAKEN OFF BECAUSE IT WORKS, OOH I GUESS YOUR COMP'S HAVEN'T TAUGHT YOU THAT YET, BUT THEN AS MUCH AS YOU ROLL YOU MUST KNOW EVERYTHING RIGHT, ALL HALE IT'S H8MONDAY KING OF THE JEEP ROLL-OVER :flipoff2: ...and with an attitude no less, what a fawken jackass you are :rolleyes: :flipoff2: :p no but :flipoff2:

Well it looks like there is a slight debate over the yota engine and the bow tie. Either way I am going with the bow tie cuase I have it in my garage. The other thing is I do want to build it right the first time. I do not want to waste my money starting with cheap crap then havig to buy new shit after I break it on the trail. I am going to run 35 or 38 inch tires or maybe something in between. I do appreciate all the in put and please keep the ideas and opinions coming. Thanks

JayRocken7, Let me ask you a ?
Do you think that the people the compete don't wheel as well?
Do you think that the locations that hold the comps arnt open to the public?
Do you think that maybe just maybe the people that compete learned a thing or two on the trails?
Do you compete? Have you seen or been to one?
Do you think that H8 only wheels his jeep in comp?
Let me tell you something, We as wheelers should be thankfull towards the people that do compete. Why you ask? Where do you think the idea of the CTM ujoint came from? My point is that in order for OUR sport to grow things must be tested and proven. What better place to do it than where things are tested to the Xtremes. I myself think that people arnt putting 60's under there rig just for fun. I know I didn't! We use what we need to wheel the trails that suround us. Where do you think Durham and Shupe learned to drive like they do? Tellico!! But because they now compete they must be a couple of no it alls. I don't think so.
So when you come on here and make a reply expect people to have other options. Hence why he asked. So he could get more than one opinion. So try and look at things with a open mind and remember that if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all. I don't think I or H8 have said "FAWK YOU BITCH"

JayRocken7, Let me ask you a ?
Do you think that the people the compete don't wheel as well?
Do you think that the locations that hold the comps arnt open to the public?
Do you think that maybe just maybe the people that compete learned a thing or two on the trails?
Do you compete? Have you seen or been to one?
Do you think that H8 only wheels his jeep in comp?
Let me tell you something, We as wheelers should be thankfull towards the people that do compete. Why you ask? Where do you think the idea of the CTM ujoint came from? My point is that in order for OUR sport to grow things must be tested and proven. What better place to do it than where things are tested to the Xtremes. I myself think that people arnt putting 60's under there rig just for fun. I know I didn't! We use what we need to wheel the trails that suround us. Where do you think Durham and Shupe learned to drive like they do? Tellico!! But because they now compete they must be a couple of no it alls. I don't think so.
So when you come on here and make a reply expect people to have other options. Hence why he asked. So he could get more than one opinion. So try and look at things with a open mind and remember that if you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all. I don't think I or H8 have said "FAWK YOU BITCH"

Sorry, I apologize to you H8, funny how stupid chit can piss a person off, I wasn't getting mad because of his opinion on the subject, I was getting pissed at the out right remark he made about me having no experience with what works and what doesn't. X-eng yes, Shupe and Durham play in Tellico alot but they also have been doing ARCA since it began, so they have plenty of west coast knowledge. If this thread began saying, " Hey I'm building a jeep for rock comp's", then I'd have a different opinion on the subject but that's not what it said ;) I respect H8 for running the comp's, they take a lot of effort. I watched all but 1 of the EROCC events this past season, just from that I can tell you that most of the hardcore trail drivers around here have awesome rigs but they wouldn't do worth a shit in a comp. Comp buggies and trail rigs are different, yeah a comp rig should be able to go anywhere a build trail rig can go but a trail rig won't go where buggies go. My rig is set-up for trail riding here, which is totally opposite of what you want for a buggy, but that's what works in the trails here, maybe in CA it's different. So FAWK ALL YOU BITCHES :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Originally posted by Jayrockn7
I was getting pissed at the out right remark he made about me having no experience with what works and what doesn't.


Apology accepted.

When you remarked that Toyotas had twin stick capabilities, and then eluded to the fact that the 2 wheel low capabilities was all that most wheelers needed, I only assumed you hadnt been to the advanced class on vehicle control.
Seeing as how the rest of the extreme wheeling population that cant "Full Twin Stick, is trying to find a way that they can "Full Twin Stick", I thought it was very important in the decision making process,(especially considering the original post, suggested an Atlass,...which can"Full Twin Stick").
I can only, explain the importance of being able to twin stick and cut your rig, both on comp courses and extreme trails, by saying, "once you try it, you will never look at line choices on an obstacle the same way". It is the most significant performance mod, I have fabbed for my rig since I installed my 1st locker 18 years ago.
If that means that you lack some experience with what works and what doesnt,.... well you decide.

As for the "Fawk you Bitch" part, all I can say, is that I try and treat people on this board excactly the way I would treat them in person. If when we meet in person, and you feel comfortable with addressing me as "Fawk you Bitch",... it should be an interesting get together. :D

For the originial question.

I wish I had found this board 2 years ago rather than a year ago, because I did not do it right the first time, I wasted a lot of money and a lot more time then I got in here and learned from experienced drivers, thats much easier than learning the hardway..so since I have gone through the flatty build up twice, I can share a few things of experience.

Wheelbase is everything, I extended it in the back and put some 38.5's on, wheeled it once parked it and extended the front and put on some 35's Im now just under 90 inches with 35/12.5/15 inch tires and it still gets scary sometimes. Its great that you got a good deal on the aftermarket frame, If it were me(its not) I would sell it and Fab my own straight rail frame, it depends on your fabrication skills, I would allow my self one full day and 150$ bucks to really do it right.

With the drivetrain...The 4.3 is a great option, I like the sound of my v8 but if I got a good deal on a 4.3 today I would buy one for my future...I would bolt and sm420 to a 4.3 bellhousing and go with the atlas, the 420 will be shorter than any auto..thats back to drivetrain length, I bought my sm 465 for 150$ and you should be able to sell the s-10 tranny if you already have it, the granny gear in your tranny and the atlas will make you low enough to avoid dumping money into the axle gear right away.

The dana 44 will be great for the front, I got mine out of a cherokee chief, the price is right for the 44 axle and with the weight of the flatty it will be all the beef you need, you can also get warn or moser shafts for it then use your stock shafts as back ups, also used lockers are often easily found.

I think you are 2 for 2 with the axles, the 9 inch is easliy upgaded and easily found, cant go wrong with it.

There are so many little things when building a flatty, I was looking under the hood of a YJ the other day and it looked liked it had twice the room as my 46..you will run into many tricky situations but just remember to do it right the first time and take your time...after 2 years I have a real capable rig that I still work on every weekend to improve.

I would give anything to know when I started what I know now so feel free to ask all the question you can think of, it would have saved me a few grand and about a year of garage time.

The 4.3L is a good start, should fit nicely in the smaller willy's frontend. If you need an auto, that's a good one. Otherwise, get yourself a SM420.
Get the Atlas.
Do a 44 front with Warn shafts and CTM's.
I'm not fond of the 9" rear as it's pinion isn't very high, you might consider a high-pinion rear D60 and shave it. I'm not sure of your fab skills, or pocketbook.

Go spring-over with Rancho 44044 or Waggy seven-leaf springs.

Do a ladder bar in the rear.

Extend your wheelbase, both directions. Chop the tub out in the back, competition-style. Extend the front frame, or have a new frame fabbed up.

Get to know your pick-n-pull junkyards :)

Wheel it! Find out what works on the trail! Have fun!

I came across a set of waggy 44's. I was thinking of putting them under my project. I figure with stock yj springs SOA I should clear 35's nicely. I am also going to put a SM420 now and am working on a dana 300. Are there any pros or cons to the 300 and how is it compared to the atlas??

Originally posted by 53CJ3aFlattie
I came across a set of waggy 44's. I was thinking of putting them under my project. I figure with stock yj springs SOA I should clear 35's nicely. I am also going to put a SM420 now and am working on a dana 300. Are there any pros or cons to the 300 and how is it compared to the atlas??


About the only comparison is that they are both twin stick capable. I have watched a few dudes with the Atlas, and my 300 will be up for sale soon. The 44's should work nicely. When you put them in, though, go through them COMPLETELY. Having old shat sucks. Trust me.

Howdy Will, your on the right track. Don't go and contaminate your project with inferior toyota crap. Build a Jeep worthy of the name. Lengthen it to accomodate the driveline. Reinforce your frame to handle the punishment.

Shame on y'all who'd suggest muddling up an american icon, with jap hardware! :flipoff2:

he 300 work just fine with the Sm-420. Just remember to use the Novak adaptor as it shorter than the Advance Adapters adaptor.

Originally posted by DoubleBit
Howdy Will, your on the right track. Don't go and contaminate your project with inferior toyota crap. Build a Jeep worthy of the name. Lengthen it to accomodate the driveline. Reinforce your frame to handle the punishment.

Shame on y'all who'd suggest muddling up an american icon, with jap hardware! :flipoff2:


Amen to that!

Ok I picked up a Dana 300 for 50 bucks I am going to use this intead of the atlas. It is horter and cheaper, I plan on putting in a 4-1 kit. I need to know what is a good front axle pass drop. Come on let me have.

Sheesh!:rolleyes:
The lucky stiff already has practically nothing into a strong aftermarket frame and an injected 4.3L V-6!
And he's smart enough "to do it right the first time" and add on an Atlas.
And now this Jayrockn7 yo-yo sez to trash that setup and go full Yota?
Huh? :confused:
Get outta here!:rasta:

Originally posted by 53CJ3aFlattie
Ok I picked up a Dana 300 for 50 bucks I am going to use this intead of the atlas. It is horter and cheaper, I plan on putting in a 4-1 kit. ...

Woooah! And I just said you were smart!
Worse decision I ever made was to go with a Tera geared D300 ... TWO of them even.
And I still have those little OEM output shafts.
Been there, done that ...

Originally posted by 53CJ3aFlattie
Ok I picked up a Dana 300 for 50 bucks I am going to use this intead of the atlas. It is horter and cheaper, I plan on putting in a 4-1 kit. I need to know what is a good front axle pass drop. Come on let me have.

Why bother with the 4:1? that's for Street jeeps that can't run low axle gears. Stick with the stock D300 and get some nice 5.38's for your axles. D44's should be fine for 35's

IF there is no point to the 4-1 gear in a dana 300 then why bother with the 4.3-1 of an atlas?? I would like to be able to use my jeep around town once in a while. Hell maybe even drive it to work (two mile commute and all)

Originally posted by 53CJ3aFlattie
IF there is no point to the 4-1 gear in a dana 300 then why bother with the 4.3-1 of an atlas?? I would like to be able to use my jeep around town once in a while. Hell maybe even drive it to work (two mile commute and all)

I never suggested an atlas. At 85:1 low gear and 35's I've never wished for a lower gear.

I guess with a crawl ratio like that would not realy need to go much lower. seeing as how i have to put new gears in front and rear anyways may as well go low.

Originally posted by 53CJ3aFlattie
I guess with a crawl ratio like that would not realy need to go much lower. seeing as how i have to put new gears in front and rear anyways may as well go low.

Yours would be even lower than mine.

Mine t18(6.32)* D18(2.42) * 5.38 gears = 84:1
Yours sm420(7.4) * d300(2.62) * 5.38 gears = 104:1