Please come support the off road community and keep our trails open.

BLM Announces Open House Scheduled for Havasu Travel Management Planning

The Bureau of Land Management (BLM) Lake Havasu Field Office has just announced a public open house for August 18, 2010, from 5:00 to 8:00 pm. The open house will be held at the Lake Havasu City Parks and Recreation Department Aquatic Center, 100 Park Avenue, to discuss the Havasu Travel Management Plan. Residents and interested parties are encouraged to attend.

The open house will be informal with BLM staff specialists on hand to answer questions. There will be maps of the study area and comment forms as well.

The Havasu Travel Management Planning area generally includes public lands in the Lake Havasu Field Office south of Interstate 40 (both sides of the Colorado River), extending to five to seven miles north of the Bill Williams River. The Havasu Unit is the second of six Units contained in the Lake Havasu Field Office.

The open house will also mark the start of the public scoping period for the Havasu Travel Management Plan and Environmental Assessment. The Assessment will evaluate all of the motorized and non-motorized routes of travel and their affected resources in the current inventory of existing routes in the study area. The Assessment will have three transportation route network alternatives designating each route as open, limited or closed. Written comments for consideration during the Assessment preparation must be received by BLM by close of business on Friday, September 17, 2010. Comments may also be faxed to (928) 505-1208 or emailed to lake_havasu@blm.gov.

Copies of the maps will be available for review online on August 15, 2010, at the Lake Havasu Field Office website at http://www.blm.gov/az/st/en/fo/lake_havasu_field.html or by contacting Myron McCoy, Outdoor Recreation Planner at the BLM Lake Havasu Field Office, 2610 Sweetwater, Lake Havasu City, AZ 86406; Telephone (928) 505-1216.

For more information about the open house, contact Myron McCoy at (928) 505-1216.

Just wanted to give you guys an update on tonights meeting. Local clubs Sidewinders, Havasu 4 Wheelers, Parker 4 Wheelers and Bullhead 4 Wheelers all showed up to support keeping our trails open.

First lets back up to about 3-4 years ago..... BLM contacted all the clubs and requested that we "assist" them by driving all the trails in Havasu and give them the GPS coordinates so they could "Help us keep our trails open." The clubs happily assisted BLM with this.

Fast forward to today.....BLM had several maps that showed four different land closure possibilities. They took all the trails that the clubs helped with and showed closing most of them off. We asked lots of questions and they gave little answers which leads us to believe that they already have their minds made up about closing lots of areas.

They gave us 30 days to tell them why they shouldn't close certain trails. Here is the deal the trails are on a un-readable topo map with no GPS lats and longs, there is no way to tell where exactly that trail is at without them giving us lats and longs. How do you justify to keep trails open when you can't find them? Then they would not explain to us why that certain trail is being closed. Here is the kicker they told us that we had to put in a request for all that info and they would get to it as soon as they could. Seriously we only have 30 days to do this with no GPS and this is the hottest time of the year for us to go exploring.

We are currently filing for an extension on that 30 day open forum to justify keeping our trails open. My advice to you would be to get involved in your local clubs and join the fight to keep your trails open.

More to follow when BLM post up on their web site

Easy Rick pointed this to me tonight. For future reference, please do not post this kind of stuff in the regional forums. Land closures effect ALL of us. In the past we only fought for our own backyards. We can't do that anymore. We all need to have each others backs and fight together as one.

We have a group of land-use folks on this board that have experience fighting this kind of stuff, and we are going to help. Many of us have even taken classes on how to address this and know the NEPA process forward and back.

I agree an extention needs to be demanded. I will fire up the Pirate4x4 letter generator for that purpose tomorrow. Then we will rally the troops. After that, we will do another letter campagin dinging them on process errors and arguing for individual trails. If there is anyone local on the groung fighting this, can you PLEASE PM me a number to give you a call and talk more in depth?

I will copy this thread to the land-use forum tomorrow and get the LU crowd here on it.

Kurt.

Pirate4x4.com Land-use editor.

Hopefully my IT guy will get the generator up today or tomorrow.

I am going to need help pushing it out to get comments asking for an extention..

it is imperative that we do this as soon as possible!!! The BLM is playing dirty and they need to see how strong this community can be!!!

I agree an extention needs to be demanded. I will fire up the Pirate4x4 letter generator for that purpose tomorrow. Then we will rally the troops. After that, we will do another letter campagin dinging them on process errors and arguing for individual trails. If there is anyone local on the groung fighting this, can you PLEASE PM me a number to give you a call and talk more in depth?

I have been on the phone and email all morning long, it sounds like the clubs will get together and work on this as a united group to keep our trails open. Havasu 4 Wheelers already have been working on some maps of trails to keep open. I am currently trying to find ways to let the local hunters and all off road enthusiast know what is going on. Thanks for the guidance and support.

Shane

Letter generator is up!!

http://www.pirate4x4.com/letters/


Please e-mail and facebook the hell out of it!!


Kurt

Thanks Kurt I will call you this afternoon! Shane, glad I wasn't standing there alone, and it was nice to meet you. Guess the gloves have to come off fellas. Offroaders are a threat to a new endangered species in the Southwest, a spineless breed of "beurocratic snakes in the grass".

Rick.

This has been posted in Chit-chat and in General 4x4 here on Pirate. Those forums get a LOT of views.

PLEASE help out by forwarding this link via e-mail, facebook etc:

www.pirate4x4.com/letters

this is bs. i didnt find out about this until about an hour ago and that was just by chance. how is it that we have to give them a reason to keep it open, it should be them explaining to us why they should close it. after all they're planning on closing it to motorized vehicles which means 4 wheelers are the only ones affected. isn't the government supposed to be for the people by the people? i mean it's a lot like theyre declaring a person guilty until proven innocent. the burden of proof should be on whoever is trying to take away our freedoms and make things stricter. also it would be nice if there were some sort of regional alert system that would p.m. people automatically when something like this comes up in there area. sure it's a nationwide issue but flesh and blood in the room makes a big impact too

Chris How did you find out?

As for how they justify closing the trails, it depends on who your talking to in what office. But the Jist of it is that they can close whatever they want without specific reason, but they have general guidelines to follow from precedents set in other states, and laws formed from those. So they were trying to stop trail proliferation in yellowstone, and needed laws to give them authority, they got them no problem. Now they are applying those laws to our open desert, as if it were yellowstone, they are general guidelines used. That is just a hypothetical example as I can't quote exactly how the laws were formed, but thats probably pretty close. There were a 100 reasons to close trails and only a few to keep them open,"legally". The kicker is that in their infinite wisdom while writing these laws, they left out the oversight where they would have to explain why they were closing a trail, basically, cause they don't want anyone doublechecking their work. Its good to be king huh.

The only hope we really have is that alot of the laws don't apply here, like the endangered species, and the cultural preservation. Much like JV this was a firing range for the Military Many decades ago, and we don't have Milk weed or the magic tortoise here. And the only place the indians lived is now at the bottom of the lake, what used to be a little river. So they are pretty much relying on the "route" plan. Basically, a route connects two points, anything else is "excess" and "unecessary" so they close it just to appease the greenies. Then try and sneak it by in the middle of the summer as quietly as possible.

While talking to the "officers" at the meeting, they stated that they need to be able to legally explain why a trail is open!!:eek: Because the Greenies will sue them and they are already tied up in court for other closures that weren't strict/thorough enough.:shaking: My thought is if they know they are going to get sued anyway, why not have some sack and leave all the trails open, and let the greenies sue to remove each one independently?? I know it is a silly notion, but so is what they are doing now.

Please help us spread awareness to everyone!

Rick.

also it would be nice if there were some sort of regional alert system that would p.m. people automatically when something like this comes up in there area. sure it's a nationwide issue but flesh and blood in the room makes a big impact too

There is. Well, a National alert system.

Through Blue Ribbon.

Sign up here:

https://www.sharetrails.org/secure/lists/?p=subscribe&id=2

This is happening on public lands EVERYWHERE. Been sayin that for 4 years but no one believes me until it happens to them.

Shit.

The Enviromental Impact Statement went down in 2007! :eek:

I wish we woulda known this back THEN! :mad3:

Not many people made comments to it...

Here's the list of everyone's name that commented:

http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm/az/pdfs/nepa/library/resource_management/lhfo_FEIS/letters.Par.47451.File.dat/index_name.pdf

Ok...

here's the four maps:

Map "A" is the no-action map. The "Status quo"

http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm/az/pdfs/travel_mgmt/lhfo.Par.22393.File.dat/HavasuTMP_Map_A.pdf

Map "B" is the Anti's map :shaking: (They call it the "protection" alternative)

http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm/az/pdfs/travel_mgmt/lhfo.Par.33241.File.dat/HavasuTMP_Map_B.pdf

Map "C" Is what the BLM is proposing

http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm/az/pdfs/travel_mgmt/lhfo.Par.64615.File.dat/HavasuTMP_Map_C.pdf

Map "D" is the so called "access" alternative

http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm/az/pdfs/travel_mgmt/lhfo.Par.88613.File.dat/HavasuTMP_Map_D.pdf


Normally on things like this, they go with the proposed map, but add and subtract routes after getting public comments..

my point is that the government shouldnt be allowed to take away any right or privilege without a damn good reason. this is supposed to be a free country after all. the burden of proof should always be on those trying to take things away from us.

my point is that the government shouldnt be allowed to take away any right or privilege without a damn good reason. this is supposed to be a free country after all. the burden of proof should always be on those trying to take things away from us.

I agree 100% but that isn't the way it works in this case.:mad3: I wish it were.

How did you find out about the meeting?

Rick.

Letter sent. Our club travels there every Thanksgiving and we don't want to see it closed!

Tim
Inland Empire 4 Wheelrs

Letter sent. Our club travels there every Thanksgiving and we don't want to see it closed!

Tim
Inland Empire 4 Wheelrs

Tim,

I sent your president a few emails could you ensure it gets sent to all your members? Thanks for your support.

Shane

I have seen the BLM and USFS use the same tactics down here in Tucson. You can figure that they will close the trails despite public comment! They havealready made up their mnds and nothing short of a full blown rebellion will stop them!

I hate to sound so negative, but that's what has happened around here.
Only 5% of Coronado Natl. Forest is open to vehiclular access now and they are shutting most of that down and trying to make all of it wilderness areas.

And they wonder why the areas that are open have such heavy usage!!!

I have seen the BLM and USFS use the same tactics down here in Tucson. You can figure that they will close the trails despite public comment! They havealready made up their mnds and nothing short of a full blown rebellion will stop them!

I hate to sound so negative, but that's what has happened around here.
Only 5% of Coronado Natl. Forest is open to vehiclular access now and they are shutting most of that down and trying to make all of it wilderness areas.

And they wonder why the areas that are open have such heavy usage!!!

Wait a minute how can that be????? They were there assuring folks that it was all good, and any comment would be considered, to help THEM make the tough choices???????????????????????? I asked lots of questions at the meeting, and pissed a few of them off, but they were lying to us as you just said!! But said I was just crazy, in not so many words. I know whats coming, roughly, and am willing to fight it to the end. I know its bleak, but I would think by now that people here know I am passionate, and commited, I will stand when others can't or won't, Just glad I don't have to do it by myself this time!!!!!

We are gaining, and making powerful allies, but we still need EVERYONES help, even if AZ is not where you live.

Everyone!!

Rick.

PS. check the general tech thread for more updates.:)

I agree 100% but that isn't the way it works in this case.:mad3: I wish it were.

How did you find out about the meeting?

Rick.

i got bored with the expedition, ford, tow rig, and general 4x4 areas and strayed down the list when i saw something about az land closures next to general chit chat

I have seen the BLM and USFS use the same tactics down here in Tucson. You can figure that they will close the trails despite public comment! !

Sorry. But I am not just gunna throw in the towel and bend over and take it.

We will not be able to save everything, but we will fight for every inch of trail. Plus in the NEPA process, the BLM HAS to read and respond to every letter. It's MANDATED. But there is a certain way to write these letters.. You can't just say "Keep it open"

Just ONE letter sent in by WLDWUN on this board literally saved 300 MILES of routes in Eldorado National Forest. So no one tell me that writing letters does not work.

Just fYI if it hasn't been mentioned. The tucson BLM a-holes will not read form letters or mass letters. They through them away. They will only read emails written by individuals with individual wording so you might also try and get people to write letters that way too. I don't know if the Havasu office has the same policies or not.

Harley

Just fYI if it hasn't been mentioned. The tucson BLM a-holes will not read form letters or mass letters. They through them away. They will only read emails written by individuals with individual wording so you might also try and get people to write letters that way too. I don't know if the Havasu office has the same policies or not.

Harley


So far we are up to 320 emails and need more. Remember to keep the emails in your own words and pass the info to everyone you know.

Shane

Larry and I arrived in Havasu Thursday night and by breakfast Friday morning we heard the news of the meeting by wheeling friends who live there full time. For those who are part time residents or for those who visit there recreationally, they may not know unless we all help get the word out. We made it a point to tell people we were next to on the river, people we were dinning next to at restaurants and even a real estate agent we met while touring an open house. No one had a clue!!! I think the local businesses need to know the fate of the city if a huge portion of the recreational draw is removed. Havasu was a town built with recreation in mind. For a town that is already hurting with the economy this will certainly be a blow! I will make it a point to tell everyone I know. Anyone who uses the dirt for fun, needs to at least have the knowledge so their voice will be heard.

Rick, since you are a business owner and live there full time, do you have a voice in the business community? Does the Chamber of Commerce know what the BLM is proposing?

I will work on my letter tomorrow with the letter generater provided. Thanks for all your hard work to all those involved in the good fight.

I'm just finding out about this. This is not good. Some of us don't just live here for the lake. My main focus of recreation is wheelin. I will be sending letters and letting anyone I know to get letters in.

:mad3::mad3::mad3::mad3::mad3:

Someone find out from the Havasu BLM office if they are reading letters or e-mails? I sent letters, but can also do e-mails if that is all they are reading/recording!:D

Someone find out from the Havasu BLM office if they are reading letters or e-mails? I sent letters, but can also do e-mails if that is all they are reading/recording!:D

Again. They are REQUIRED by the Nepa process to read and respond to every public comment.

"Form" letters are listed as "Insignificant" and placed aside. (Still kept, not thrown out...but placed aside.

That is why you must word the letter generator IN YOUR OWN WORDS.

Larry and I arrived in Havasu Thursday night and by breakfast Friday morning we heard the news of the meeting by wheeling friends who live there full time. For those who are part time residents or for those who visit there recreationally, they may not know unless we all help get the word out. We made it a point to tell people we were next to on the river, people we were dinning next to at restaurants and even a real estate agent we met while touring an open house. No one had a clue!!! I think the local businesses need to know the fate of the city if a huge portion of the recreational draw is removed. Havasu was a town built with recreation in mind. For a town that is already hurting with the economy this will certainly be a blow! I will make it a point to tell everyone I know. Anyone who uses the dirt for fun, needs to at least have the knowledge so their voice will be heard.

Rick, since you are a business owner and live there full time, do you have a voice in the business community? Does the Chamber of Commerce know what the BLM is proposing?

I will work on my letter tomorrow with the letter generater provided. Thanks for all your hard work to all those involved in the good fight.

Cheri, I am getting the word out in everyway I can think of, my wife is going to drop flyers off at every motorports oriented shop in town, I think we need all the dirt bikers and rhino owners to get up in arms, as they outnumber us probably 5 to 1 here. We meet with the local paper tommorrow, and we got a CC from the letter the Mayor sent to BLM this morning!! Plus all the work people are doing now that they know, only a hermit won't know by next week.:)

your help is greatly appreciated as well.:smokin:

Rick.

Cheri, I am getting the word out in everyway I can think of, my wife is going to drop flyers off at every motorports oriented shop in town, I think we need all the dirt bikers and rhino owners to get up in arms, as they outnumber us probably 5 to 1 here. We meet with the local paper tommorrow, and we got a CC from the letter the Mayor sent to BLM this morning!! Plus all the work people are doing now that they know, only a hermit won't know by next week.:)

your help is greatly appreciated as well.:smokin:

Rick.

Rick,

Not one of the restaurants we went to was aware either.:eek:

Julio

FYI,

Rick and I had a meeting with BLM this morning: Yes they are reading every letter and they are "overwhelmed" with the letters and their is only two people processing the e-mails.

I just talked to and sent an email to one of the equestrian folks out here and she is going to get it out to their club.

I also emailed Mohave County Sportsman club and are awaiting their reply.

While we were having a meeting with BLM a local motorcycle shop owner showed up and is going to spread the word.

Yes we are going to work the restaurants too.

We should be hearing something on Friday.....stay tuned....

Thanks for everyones help keep the letters coming.

Please remember to put it in your own words so BLM doesn't think we are spamming them.

Thanks guys for your time in dealing with this issue. Please keep this thread updated with any info as it comes in, or meetings that are coming up that we need to attend. As I get the information I'm passing it on to people I know, here and in other areas.

Here's a list of AZ clubs that we may be able to contact and ask for help with comments:

http://www.asa4wdc.org/roster/memberClubInfo.cfm

Here's a list of AZ clubs that we may be able to contact and ask for help with comments:

http://www.asa4wdc.org/roster/memberClubInfo.cfm

Finally I am one step ahead of you!!! Did it a few days ago. :smokin:

I wish I would have found this thread earlier.

After reading this thread the BLM is NOT being honest with the people they serve here is an example.

Below is a email I sent to the Lake Havasu BLM office ASOWEB_AZ@blm.gov on 7-25-2010
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Hi
While out riding the Standard Wash area I ran across markers like see in the attached picture do you have a map that shows all these trails and roads?

I have some of your "BLM Special Edition 1998 Surface Managment Status Desert Access Guide" Map PARKER but it does not show these numbered trails, roads or routes.

Thanks in advance.
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Here is the reply I received on 7-26-2010

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Dear sir, or madam,

I received your email looking for a map of the Standard Wash area for OHV
purposes.
I have researched it all day and I have no map.

There is a $4.00 map for the area just south of there called Cactus Plain.
But it does not have route numbers either.
BLM is working on a series of OHV maps with route numbers, but not one for
that area.

I have a $12.50 map (custom, runs on my plotter) for Black Mountain,
Hualapai Mountains and Poachie Mountains.

I am sorry, I do not know when BLM maps with route numbers will become
available.

Phyllis
Phyllis Ralley
Information Specialist
Bureau of Land Management
Outdoor Information Center
602-417-9300
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Now I come here and see the local off road clubs have been supplying them with GPS files of all the trails.

When I first heard about this BLM meeting I made a post about it on the RZR board http://www.rzrforums.net/public-lands-advocacy/33447-blm-announces-open-house-scheduled-havasu-travel-management-planning.html

I downloaded the 4 maps from the BLM site and it looks like Phyllis Ralley flat out lied to me the 4 maps are proof of this, if someone has proof they gave them GPS files thats even more proof.

Is the BLM suppose to be lying to the general public when making inquiries like this?

I am very upset by this if I didnt live 1800 miles away I would be in their office having a fact to face and would be trying to figure out who is the supervisor over the Lake Havasu field office this dishonesty needs to STOP.

Has anybody contacted any of the local media, news papers and made any of these proposed closures public? I think their dishonesty needs make public also, I am planning to return to the Lake Havasu area just as soon as weather permits and do more riding, my FIRST stop will be the BLM office to have a face to face with some if not all of the employees of that office, my next stop will be with the local media to tell them my story about the office telling lies to me and denying me maps I requested

dosent the BLM work for us, it looks like its time to change the people working at this office.

I wish I would have found this thread this morning before I sent another email to the Lake Havasu BLM office, below is the email I sent to them.

.................................................. .
Hi
I was just on your website and reading your second Travel Management Plan of the Lake Havasu Field Office.
http://www.blm.gov/az/st/en/prog/travel_mgmt/lhfo/hav-tmp.html

I have a few questions can I get the contact info of the "officers and representatives of the Havasu, Bullhead and Parker 4-Wheelers, and other user groups" I would like to talk to these people and become more involved.

Also you list 4 maps for download showing the trails in question do you have GPS data of all these trails so I can load them in my GPS to facilitate inspecting these trails before making any comments and suggestions to the BLM?

Thanks in advance.
.................................................. ...........................

I will post their reply here soon as I get it, my next reply to them was to inquire about extending the comment period because its too hot to inspect the trails they want me to comment on.

I want to know why they timed this comment period when its 100+ daily? Its the BLM that keeps advising BLM land users NOT to go into the desert during the summer months.

Very upset over this I just found this riding are in 2007 and now it looks like they are trying to close it.

How can I help keeping in mind I am 1800 miles away, I wanted to go to that BLM meeting in the worst way on August 18 but just could not justify the cost.

Suggestion for the next BLM meeting at their office run a ad in the local news papers and announce on the radio FREE hot dogs and hamburgers at the BLM office then take up a collection to fund it, get as many local OHVers to the meeting as possible, I will donate for the FOOD and if I can be their will help cook or what ever.

After seeing the trails in the Havasu Parker area I have to assume their are quite a few OHV owners in the area.

Sorry to ramble on
Thanks

The comment period has been extended to October 31st. :smokin:

Great job everyone..

The NEXT step is to argue for indiviual trails and make sure that they follow the NEPA process correctly. If they don't do that: :smokin: We got 'em!

Save Havasu OHV facebook page:

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=102908713102446#!/group.php?gid=102908713102446


PLEASE pass it on!

The comment period has been extended to October 31st. :smokin:

Great job everyone..

The NEXT step is to argue for indiviual trails and make sure that they follow the NEPA process correctly. If they don't do that: :smokin: We got 'em!

SWEET!

Where is the procedure for NEPA please I want to study it.

On a side note while on the Havasu BLM site I have been finding all kinds of problems with the site so keep sending emails asking for help for example on this page http://www.blm.gov/az/st/en/prog/travel_mgmt/lhfo/rmp_connect.htm#desired_future their is a bunch of broken links for the documents they want us to read, their is also a whole bunch of acronyms I have no idea what they mean so I am sending emails asking for clarification:)

You guys see broken links or something you dont understand you need to ask them they are providing us the tools for this land grab we better make sure we understand them.

Here is the contact info I been sending my inquires too.

For more information about the Public Open House and the Havasu TMP, contact Myron McCoy at (928) 505-1216, or myron_mccoy@blm.gov or leave a message toll free by Phone: 1-888-213-2582, or Email: Lake_Havasu@blm.gov

Thanks

SWEET!

Where is the procedure for NEPA please I want to study it.

On a side note while on the Havasu BLM site I have been finding all kinds of problems with the site so keep sending emails asking for help for example on this page http://www.blm.gov/az/st/en/prog/travel_mgmt/lhfo/rmp_connect.htm#desired_future their is a bunch of broken links for the documents they want us to read, their is also a whole bunch of acronyms I have no idea what they mean so I am sending emails asking for clarification:)

You guys see broken links or something you dont understand you need to ask them they are providing us the tools for this land grab we better make sure we understand them.

Here is the contact info I been sending my inquires too.

For more information about the Public Open House and the Havasu TMP, contact Myron McCoy at (928) 505-1216, or myron_mccoy@blm.gov or leave a message toll free by Phone: 1-888-213-2582, or Email: Lake_Havasu@blm.gov

Thanks

oh, that's one hell of a lot of studying...

I suggest you search here on Pirate for how to deal with travel management/route designation..

We fought hard for Eldorado national Forest (home to the rubicon trail) on this board...

I will post up some links for you in a few.. hold on

I will have the Pirate4x4.com letter generator up again next week for round two :evil:

The next step is to argue for particlaur routes..

But you CAN'T just send a letter saying "Keep it open!" While the BLM HAS to read and respond to every single public comment (as per NEPA) Only ONE type of letter is considered significant..

Please read here for how to write letters:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=720764

Here's examples of comment for Eldo:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=607421

One thing: Some of those comments are WAY too long.

Instead of having 1 letter with 5 points in it, it's better to send FIVE letters, one for each point..

The NEPA basics:

http://www.4x4voice.com/index.php/civics-101/34-nepa/103-nepa-explained

Here's examples of comment for Eldo:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=607421

One thing: Some of those comments are WAY too long.

Instead of having 1 letter with 5 points in it, it's better to send FIVE letters, one for each point..


Thats what I been doing with the broken links and the questions I been finding on their web page I send one email for each one as I find them, actually I am sending the same email to BOTH email addresses they list.

Not looking forward to fighting for each trail, I have a problem with this, currently I cant print any of the maps when you zoom in, that is one of the complaints I sent them by email, it will only let me print the whole page and that is worthless.

If someone wants to feed me the info to send to them thats cool too I also can post it on my website and have my members kick in, I already have them sending the letter you gave a link to earlier in this thread but I will tell them to stop until your ready for the next one.

Thanks so much for the material and links and what you do.

pm me your email and I will send you the pdf forms and where to go to get them printed up.

Sorry I missed the meeting with the clubs, found out after the fact.

Can someone post up all the routes so that comments can be sent in for each one?. So that we are all on the same page. Thanks.

Sorry I missed the meeting with the clubs, found out after the fact.

Can someone post up all the routes so that comments can be sent in for each one?. So that we are all on the same page. Thanks.

Problem I am having is with their crappy maps trying to figure out what trails I have already rode on and havent hard for me to comment on trails I have never been on.

If they had a GPS file with all the trails I could load it then load my GPS files and over lay theirs and tell exactly what trails I have been on.

While on the subject does anybody have GPS files they wish to share so when I return I have better trail data on my GPS?

Thanks.

I wish the interview could have been alot less impromptu, but hopefully it helps spread the word locally, even if the heading is less than provocative!http://www.havasunews.com/articles/2010/08/27/news/doc4c774d4266c1e303208031.txt#blogcomments

Problem I am having is with their crappy maps trying to figure out what trails I have already rode on and havent hard for me to comment on trails I have never been on.

If they had a GPS file with all the trails I could load it then load my GPS files and over lay theirs and tell exactly what trails I have been on.

While on the subject does anybody have GPS files they wish to share so when I return I have better trail data on my GPS?

Thanks.

There is no easy answer for this unfortunately. We now have breakdowns of the large maps, with topo. Its a bit easier to read, and source the trails out in the wild probably, but does nothing for our GPS'. I am going to print off some copies and try to disperse them to groups when they contact us, as thats the only way I can figure to do it.

All ears if anyone has a better method, please.

Rick.

There is no easy answer for this unfortunately. We now have breakdowns of the large maps, with topo. Its a bit easier to read, and source the trails out in the wild probably, but does nothing for our GPS'. I am going to print off some copies and try to disperse them to groups when they contact us, as thats the only way I can figure to do it.

All ears if anyone has a better method, please.

Rick.


http://www.blm.gov/az/st/en/prog/travel_mgmt/lhfo/inventory.html

The following tools and procedures were used for the inventory: aerial photography, ground and data collection with global positioning system (GPS) equipment, and documentation of route conditions. Routes identified in the inventory were later evaluated to identify designation alternatives for developing the comprehensive travel management plan.

Why are we not allowed access to the GPS data they have?

This quote was taken from the BullheadTMP_FINAL.pdf document I was reading, the document is off their website, they make mention of GPS many times on their site, they have the data then give us maps you cant even use, are the maps they are given us even up to normal standards, looking at the paper maps I have purchased from the BLM in the past I would say no.

D. Decision to be Made
The EA analyzes the trails identified in the RMP and whether they should be designated as “open”, “closed”, and “limited” to motorized and/or non-motorized travel. The RMP designates motorized use as “limited” to existing roads and trails to the field route inventories by BLM staff and contractors using GPS between 1990 and 2004. Additional routes were added in 2006 to complete the route inventory in the RMP. The Proposed Action addresses the main issue in the planning process by designating routes of travel for motorized and non-motorized use. The TMP implements the decision of this EA.

Trying to put together a list of things I do and enjoy while using the open BLM lands and trails, things I am likely to see and do etc.

Thanks

as far as the maps available from the blm i've bought the ones for this area except the one i really want which i think is called the alamo lake map which they say they cant get. i also asked about a map of the trail numbers after seeing them in the alamo road area and they said they had nothing. now i suppose that could be true, after all they work for the government so if it makes no sense then they'll probably do it. i mean a normal person would not spend time and money putting a bunch of posts up with trail route numbers and not log them but i could see the government doing something like that. it's disappointing because i dont have the time to go exploring all the trails, it would be nice to have an idea whats on a trail so i can check out the most interesting sounding ones first

as far as the maps available from the blm i've bought the ones for this area except the one i really want which i think is called the alamo lake map which they say they cant get. i also asked about a map of the trail numbers after seeing them in the alamo road area and they said they had nothing. now i suppose that could be true, after all they work for the government so if it makes no sense then they'll probably do it. i mean a normal person would not spend time and money putting a bunch of posts up with trail route numbers and not log them but i could see the government doing something like that. it's disappointing because i dont have the time to go exploring all the trails, it would be nice to have an idea whats on a trail so i can check out the most interesting sounding ones first

They have them logged. Had too to make the map. The area we are dealing with now is probably 2000+ square miles so the GPS files are huge, especialy as tracks. They are not going to hand that out to anyone that wants it. We have asked, repeatedly! They are also not going to put a bunch of "Closed" posts/signs up. IMO it makes monetary sense all around not too, for them. If you have a thousand trails, and are going to close 65-70 percent of them, would you mark 700 trails? Or 300? Path of least resistance.

My point really is you don't have to explore all the trails, just find the trails you enjoy and use, and write in about them with fact based reasons why they should remain open. That is why I am pushing so hard to get everyone involved local, because I can't personaly fight for every trail, and I don't expect you too. Broken into groups we can fight for the majority of them if we unite in our application. Best example I can think of; In school we had "group assignments" and we had to work as a group for a grade, but we didn't all research every little thing for the project. Each person had a source to investigate, a small part if you will, and report back on. Then as a group the report was relayed to the powers that be, teachers/classmates. Yeah it was a mess then too, but never thought you would use it huh.:laughing:

Anyway, thats what we need to do, without it being assigned to you. Go out on your own and find the reasons you need to keep a certain trail open, and report back directly to the BLM. But Carbon Copy us, and we can pass that info on to others who couldn't see the exact trails you saw, but might agree with you.:) There are many folks out there that can't be here for the "investigation" part of this assignment, but will be here for the "Presentation" part.

Thats my opinion anyway, take it for what its worth.

Get to work class. Good luck,:smokin:

Rick.

Carbon copy to rickmooneyham@yahoo.com

Good news! Havasu Gold seekers club officer sent me an e-mail saying they knew nothing about this until the newspaper article last thursday. The club has 400 members! They own land here as prospectors, and said they pay 2800 a year to BLM for the right to use it. In the proposed maps, they say they would lose access to their properties. Something tells me this prospecting club will be a huge asset to our fight!:D

Rick.

Good news! Havasu Gold seekers club officer sent me an e-mail saying they knew nothing about this until the newspaper article last thursday. The club has 400 members! They own land here as prospectors, and said they pay 2800 a year to BLM for the right to use it. In the proposed maps, they say they would lose access to their properties. Something tells me this prospecting club will be a huge asset to our fight!:D

Rick.


Nice!

I dont know the area have all the area "Clubs" that use these lands been notified, jogging,hiking, hunting, fishing, ATV, OHV, gun, prospecting, etc.

I sent the http://www.havasugoldseekers.com/ a email.

We need to find out if you are in their club, do you have access to their placer claims. If you have a claim, you are allowed access to it even if routes are closed.

Good news! Havasu Gold seekers club officer sent me an e-mail saying they knew nothing about this until the newspaper article last thursday. !:D

Rick.

Good job reaching out.

Has someone contacted all the local area Off Road shops or any business for that matter, putting up fliers at all parts counters?

We need to find out if you are in their club, do you have access to their placer claims. If you have a claim, you are allowed access to it even if routes are closed.

are you sure? or do you have to file for a public right of way or something? i know about a mile or 2 east of the airport theres private property that is surrounded by blm land. the people who own those lots probably have no idea where thier properties are because unless you look at a property map like the mohave county assessors gis map it looks just like public land. i have no idea what the laws are as far as access to private property, mining claims, utility lines, and leases. i know theres some process for obtaining a right of way from the blm, i always assumed it was for people to get guarantied access to these.

are you sure? or do you have to file for a public right of way or something? i know about a mile or 2 east of the airport theres private property that is surrounded by blm land. the people who own those lots probably have no idea where thier properties are because unless you look at a property map like the mohave county assessors gis map it looks just like public land. i have no idea what the laws are as far as access to private property, mining claims, utility lines, and leases. i know theres some process for obtaining a right of way from the blm, i always assumed it was for people to get guarantied access to these.

AT least here in CA, if you have a mining claim on BLM or forest service property, you are allowed access to it. You don't own the land, you own the mineral rights to it. Even if a route is closed, you can drive down it to reach your claim.

You are also allowed to build structures I think...

are you sure? or do you have to file for a public right of way or something? i know about a mile or 2 east of the airport theres private property that is surrounded by blm land. the people who own those lots probably have no idea where thier properties are because unless you look at a property map like the mohave county assessors gis map it looks just like public land. i have no idea what the laws are as far as access to private property, mining claims, utility lines, and leases. i know theres some process for obtaining a right of way from the blm, i always assumed it was for people to get guarantied access to these.

Every area is probably going to be different, here in Illinois its state law you cant be land locked someone has to grant you access to your property like it or not the state will step in and force surrounding land owners to grant you a easement, if they wont then the state will condemn part of their property and give it to you for access, I have been told that in MI you can actually buy land that has no access and be stuck with it if land owners wont grant you access or sell you a strip of land to access it your screwed.

i suppose were getting a little off track but i know squatters rights can also come into play there, if you've been gaining access to your property a certain way long enough and someone claims it's theirs and tries to stop you you can claim squatters rights or something like that so that they have to allow you access.

We are currently working on a writing workshop for next thursday the 9th from 6 to about 8.

There is a SPECIFIC way to write public comments for something like this, and the workshop will teach you how to do just that. We need to make sure people are writing effective comments to keep trails open, and we will give you the tools to do just that.

I HIGHLY encourage as many people as possible in the Havasu area to attend this workshop.

Keep checking this thread for updates on the workshop.

Check out the maps now

http://www.blm.gov/az/st/en/prog/travel_mgmt/lhfo/hav-tmp/maps.html#alt_maps

Loaded the trails_HavasuTMP_AltC.gpx file in EasyGPS looks like their is 1141 trails on the map not sure how many of those 1141 trails we will have to comment on, 727.3 miles trails total

There are 186 trails that are over 1 mile in length.

http://www.easygps.com/

They are only showing the Alt C map Alt C is CLOSED TO ALL USES

Check out the maps now

http://www.blm.gov/az/st/en/prog/travel_mgmt/lhfo/hav-tmp/maps.html#alt_maps

Loaded the trails_HavasuTMP_AltC.gpx file in EasyGPS looks like their is 1141 trails on the map not sure how many of those 1141 trails we will have to comment on, 727.3 miles trails total

There are 186 trails that are over 1 mile in length.

http://www.easygps.com/

They are only showing the Alt C map Alt C is CLOSED TO ALL USES

Wow!

They listed reports on every route!

Sweet! now we have something to argue!

Check out the maps now

http://www.blm.gov/az/st/en/prog/travel_mgmt/lhfo/hav-tmp/maps.html#alt_maps

Loaded the trails_HavasuTMP_AltC.gpx file in EasyGPS looks like their is 1141 trails on the map not sure how many of those 1141 trails we will have to comment on, 727.3 miles trails total

There are 186 trails that are over 1 mile in length.

http://www.easygps.com/

They are only showing the Alt C map Alt C is CLOSED TO ALL USES

We will have to blow those up to be able to read them I think, and those maps are neato...........would be even neater if they showed all the trails!:confused:

We are working on complete maps to present to the BLM, for their consideration. We are also working on a Group trail cleanup/map working around the 9-10th of October out in our desert, where everyone would be invited to help get the BLM the input they are asking for!:D

Rick.

We will have to blow those up to be able to read them I think, and those maps are neato...........would be even neater if they showed all the trails!:confused:

We are working on complete maps to present to the BLM, for their consideration. We are also working on a Group trail cleanup/map working around the 9-10th of October out in our desert, where everyone would be invited to help get the BLM the input they are asking for!:D

Rick.

I have to say I am not happy with what I see on these maps, for example if you look at the 3 trails HN625 , HN443, HN591 three short trails bunched together maybe they are worthless trails that go nowhere and nobody would ride anyways what is the length of each trail they are going to close they look short on the map but do they in fact run for miles once you get out there and look at them in the field?

Their are all kinds of short trails (on the map) but if you look at them trails on google earth you can see they run on for miles, are they only closing off 500' of these trails so we dont have access to the rest of the trails?

IMO before we can comment on each trail you need to go view the trail before commenting if these short trails on the map are in fact miles long then we need a detailed explanation before they are allowed to close it I dont want to find out they closed 500' of trail that connects to 100 miles of trails that we no longer have access to.

Once they close these trails whats the chances of getting them opened again once we find out we got screwed?

Look at the next 10 day forecast http://www.weather.com/outlook/recreation/outdoors/tenday/USAZ0116

Were suppose to go verify all these trails in these temps?

Far as I am concerned since once these trails are closed they will most likely be closed for good we need much more time than they have allowed so far to verify the trails and confirm things like the actual length of the trail they are closing to ensure it does not block us from getting to other trail systems.

Their is no way I am driving 1800 miles to verify trails in this heat I will be staying in a RV (tin can) it will be 150 degrees inside lol.

What about the locals that want to verify the trails I have to assume most of them work full time and have family's its not like they can devote every free hour they have in 100+ degrees heat verifying hundreds of trails.

Thanks

Here is another example trail HN007 they list it as being 271 feet long, if you look at that trail in MapSource it looks like that trail is in a wash if you follow that wash it splits off into 2 washes then they both continue on, I am not savoy enough with MapSource to figure out how far they go.

It looks to me you could use that route to connect to HN027 I dont know the area so cant comment on what I would lose by losing those TWO trails, maybe its happy hunting grounds? Maybe its a great place for the rock hounds? Great camping spot?

I hate to see a real prime OHV area lost because they closed some insignificant looking trail on the map trail 271 feet long.

I dont like giving up trails like this without seeing whats being lost.

Edit.
The more I look at these trail the more of a mess I see, look at trail HN485 it says its 35.6 miles long if you zoom in then follow the track it looks like someone went back and forth on the same trail several times to accumulate the 35.6 miles it looks like they just ran up and down Mohave Wash a bunch of times, did the DNR just throw this thing all together from the office or did someone go into the field and evaluate and validate all these trails?

More Closed Than Open - Open the "trails" folder and you will see a LOT more red, orange and blue (Closures) than white! Too vast to count, it looks to me like way over half and more like 2/3 are marked for being closed to seniors and other riders.

Read it all here http://offroadinghome.blogspot.com/2010/09/new-havasu-blm-trail-closures.html


Thanks

Trails
HN40B .5 miles long
HN883 484 feet long
HN41B .2 miles long
These three trails are connected, they are also isolated HN41B looks like its connected to a wash that runs for miles, the wash that runs all the way back to RT95
What a mess these closures are going to make.

Trails
HN40B .5 miles long
HN883 484 feet long
HN41B .2 miles long
These three trails are connected, they are also isolated HN41B looks like its connected to a wash that runs for miles, the wash that runs all the way back to RT95
What a mess these closures are going to make.

I brought that up in a meeting I had with H4W yesterday, this could work in our favor. :D

I brought that up in a meeting I had with H4W yesterday, this could work in our favor. :D

Should I keep looking at the map and listing them then?

I have a huge list of email of OHV clubs I want to send out a letter to so they get on board but sure what to tell them or where to send them so they can learn whats going on.

Look at HN43B its out in the middle of no where its .2 miles long how did they get to that trail, where does it go we cant allow this trail to close without further investigation.


These two trails are listed as short trails but if you look on Google earth you can plainly see they run on for miles, one runs out
to Havasu Lake Road the other connects to washes closing off these two short trails could easily close off access to 50 miles of
trails.
HN50G 336 feet
HN26G 514 feet

Should I start sending these questions to the BLM office?

Havasu Closure Map - errors

DJ has found more map problems and the BLM is going to issue more maps for us to view read it all here
http://offroadinghome.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6&sid=c2bdd103b1d7675b0f183ee5d9b10d48

Sounds like we need a millionaire wheeler with a chopper to get the absolute facts here. This sucks. I'm going out to AZ again in a couple weeks looking for a house. We're moving out there after all the fawkin trails are being stolen.

Havasu Closure Map - Final

DJ has refined the BLM map again to make it more comprehensive give it a try in your FREE google earth.

http://offroadinghome.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=11&sid=4897f8a705aab60d1c4845cc880e28bb

I still have not received a reply from the BLM on my question "where is the ATV trails" has anybody else contacted them asking the same thing, after they finalize this trail thing does this mean ATV's will no longer be allowed on BLM lands in the Havasu area?

Looking at the maps it does look like they have about 4 miles of motorcycle trails.

Thanks


http://www.pilotodyssey.com/PO/download/file.php?id=26081&t=1

Sounds like we need a millionaire wheeler with a chopper to get the absolute facts here. This sucks. I'm going out to AZ again in a couple weeks looking for a house. We're moving out there after all the fawkin trails are being stolen.

Looking at the next 10 day forecast the average temps is still 104.7 degrees http://www.weather.com/outlook/recreation/outdoors/tenday/USAZ0116

I think the first order of business needs to be to extend this comment period to allow land users a reasonable amount of time to review the trails up for comment in a REASONABLE TEMPERATURE range, I purpose we petition the BLM to extend the comment period until at least March.

We need to investigate EVERY trail they have set for closure there are some trails that if you look at them on google earth will close off access to other trail systems if closed.

What is the status on all the trails running down to the river being closed off?

Thanks

i'm a little confused as to the google earth map. which color is what? obviously red is ones they want to shut down but i also see yellow orange and white. is the white just part of the google earth map or the over lay? if white is part of the map does that make yellow open trails or trails only for blm and their butt buddies? orange? what is the deal with the areas? is that just like saying there's too many trails in that area lets just combine them?

a friend just told me about national geographic topo! explorer maps. it requires you to create an account but it is free and shows "jeep" trails. i dont know if that will help at all

i'm a little confused as to the google earth map. which color is what? obviously red is ones they want to shut down but i also see yellow orange and white. is the white just part of the google earth map or the over lay? if white is part of the map does that make yellow open trails or trails only for blm and their butt buddies? orange? what is the deal with the areas? is that just like saying there's too many trails in that area lets just combine them?

red lines are trails which are "proposed" to be closed, especially to seniors to don't hike; but, notice all the orange lines? Those are the trails that the BLM doesn't want the "seniors and regular people" to see any more; however, they don't want to have to hike it themselves so are making it so that only Staff and Friends (special permission) can ride their vehicles on the trail. The blue lines are for "motorcycles only"

found this on offroadinghome.blogspot.com

ok, what about yellow and white? proposed open and/or seasonal?

i think i know why some trails are red for only short stretches. it seems that blm is only trying to shut down what they own. in other words if a trail goes through public and private property they cant shut down the sections that are private property. i've been comparing the mohave county assessors gis map to the google map and considering the variations or error factor the red seems to turn yellow at people property lines. thats not to say that all yellow is private land since most land is public but it seems that why there are only fragments of red in some places. i wish i could just overlay the two maps and see ifthey screwed up anywhere. also does anyone know if it's possible to put this map on a gps, say a garmin nuvi or a lowrance baja 540c?

i think i know why some trails are red for only short stretches. it seems that blm is only trying to shut down what they own. in other words if a trail goes through public and private property they cant shut down the sections that are private property. i've been comparing the mohave county assessors gis map to the google map and considering the variations or error factor the red seems to turn yellow at people property lines. thats not to say that all yellow is private land since most land is public but it seems that why there are only fragments of red in some places. i wish i could just overlay the two maps and see ifthey screwed up anywhere. also does anyone know if it's possible to put this map on a gps, say a garmin nuvi or a lowrance baja 540c?

We need to know for sure not "I think", dont get offended I am not taking a poke at you or giving you a hard time personally I feel things like this was done intentionally to create confusion they want you to look at their first release fuzzy maps and assume its a SHORT insignaficent trail then just blow it off and not comment then later find out that short leg on the map just closed access to 30 miles of trails, remember the BLM does this for a living they have the advantage, they know how to play the game well.

Since they are going to close trails that will have a HUGE impact on future land access I think its time for another letter writing campaign to further extend the comment period at least until next spring so every one of these trails can be verified, reviewed then commented on, HOW MANY trails are on the list to be closed has anybody counted? I would agree with the rubber stamped "30 day comment period" if they were closing say 12-15 trails, were talking a overwhelming amount of trails here that MUST be verified, reviewed then commented on.

When we comment we need to send a letter or email for EACH TRAIL not list 50 trails then comment, that will be counted as ONE not 50, follow me?

One thing we need is to be better organized, I am one of them guys that likes to "Plan your work, Work your plan, right now I am unsure what the plan is so simply cant work my plan, clocks ticking, weeks has went by since my last email to the BLM, each day I check my emails waiting for direction on how to write a meaningful letter to the BLM, I have complied a bunch of discrepancy I have found on the maps, I have compiled about 100 OHV club email addresses in AZ I want to send a well crafted email to but have no idea where to send them for the info they need to have so they too can comment.

One thing we need is to be better organized, I am one of them guys that likes to "Plan your work, Work your plan, right now I am unsure what the plan is so simply cant work my plan, clocks ticking, weeks has went by since my last email to the BLM, each day I check my emails waiting for direction on how to write a meaningful letter to the BLM, I have complied a bunch of discrepancy I have found on the maps, I have compiled about 100 OHV club email addresses in AZ I want to send a well crafted email to but have no idea where to send them for the info they need to have so they too can comment.

Direct them to our workshops being held in Havasu.

That's all we got right now, and it's the best way to explain to someone how to write an effective comment.

Here on Pirate4x4.com, we are not some "land-use organization". We are just the ground troops. There is NO ONE leading the charge here except for about 3-4 of us here on this board who are working our asses off. We are fighting this with NO money from anyone, and all on our personal time. A couple of us are bringing in knowledge from going thru this before in other areas.

IMO, it's not up to US to set out some huge plan of action.

Contact your local orgs and ask what they are doing: http://asa4wdc.org

I have NO idea what they are doing. Cal4 has helped us out personally with the workshops that Shane is holding, and other AZ 4x4 clubs are working on stuff, but maily by themselves. BRC has also helped with the letter generator and guidence/advice, but they are a National Org that fights on a larger scale...



As for how to write effective comments...those threads are all over this board from other route dez and travel management fiascos.

Here's one for Tahoe NF on how to write letters:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=720764

Here's a TON of sample comments that were sent into Eldorado:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=607421

Here's a sample flyer that we sent out to people for Eldorado expaining what to do:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=593194

You want the powerpoint that we created? Ask Shane to e-mail it to you, but again....it will make little sence to anyone UNLESS it is explained by someone.

Direct them to our workshops being held in Havasu.

That's all we got right now, and it's the best way to explain to someone how to write an effective comment.

Here on Pirate4x4.com, we are not some "land-use organization". We are just the ground troops. There is NO ONE leading the charge here except for about 3-4 of us here on this board who are working our asses off. We are fighting this with NO money from anyone, and all on our personal time. A couple of us are bringing in knowledge from going thru this before in other areas.

IMO, it's not up to US to set out some huge plan of action.

Contact your local orgs and ask what they are doing: http://asa4wdc.org

I have NO idea what they are doing. Cal4 has helped us out personally with the workshops that Shane is holding, and other AZ 4x4 clubs are working on stuff, but maily by themselves. BRC has also helped with the letter generator and guidence/advice, but they are a National Org that fights on a larger scale...



As for how to write effective comments...those threads are all over this board from other route dez and travel management fiascos.

Here's one for Tahoe NF on how to write letters:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=720764

Here's a TON of sample comments that were sent into Eldorado:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=607421

Here's a sample flyer that we sent out to people for Eldorado expaining what to do:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=593194

You want the powerpoint that we created? Ask Shane to e-mail it to you, but again....it will make little sence to anyone UNLESS it is explained by someone.

Thanks for the reply, I have read those 3 links before they might as well be written in another language I simply dont understand them they are all written with a insiders knowledge of the whole land issues or land closure thing they are written in mostly acronyms they give me 0 guidance on writing a letter to the Havasu BLM concerning the Havasu land closure I am sure those links make sense to a seasoned veteran of land closures.

I have already spent a considerable amount of time on this Havasu closure mostly compiling contact info and studying the maps to help spread the word, not sure what to send them or where to send people to their is no single point of contact no organized effort, right now unlike weeks ago and like most others my free time is at a premium, with no organization or a single point of contact or place for ALL the info I think I am just going to walk away from this issue, I just can no longer try to chase down updates and try to piece together what the current status is my time is so tight for the next 4-5 weeks I will be lucky to have time to read my emails.

Thanks for all your help and for what you guys do I hope to meet all of on the trails sometime in the future.

it's hard to tell without an overlay and the mohave county gis map isn't really user friendly for this purpose. so far between trying to compare lat/longs and terrain features all the red trails i've compared the the gis map have ended at peoples property lines. there is private property out there that looks just like blm land. in fact the people that own it probably never saw it and don't realize they can only get to it with a 4x4 if that. my first thought was to find a red trail on someones property because they have no right to do that but so far i haven't found any that are blatantly obvious, maybe a hundred yards max considering gps and map variations
edit: by end i mean start, end, or change color

One thing we need is to be better organized, I am one of them guys that likes to "Plan your work, Work your plan, right now I am unsure what the plan is so simply cant work my plan, clocks ticking, weeks has went by since my last email to the BLM, each day I check my emails waiting for direction on how to write a meaningful letter to the BLM, I have complied a bunch of discrepancy I have found on the maps, I have compiled about 100 OHV club email addresses in AZ I want to send a well crafted email to but have no idea where to send them for the info they need to have so they too can comment.

Seriously? I have replied to your thread, sent you pms and emails to get a hold of me. All of my contact info has been sent to you, I can answer the questions you have about the comment letters and get you going in the direction you need. You have allot of great info and ideas for comment writing now lets get you on the right tract for writing those comments

Check your pms and email and call me.

Shane

also HoserRZR, i'm not saying your wrong. for example HN033 is an orange section in a yellow trail that appears to be going through a canyon which would prevent access to the rest of the trail going down to the river. being orange on yellow makes it difficult to spot

Here is some great info on the NEPA process. This should answer allot of questions. HoserRZR you have been wanting some information here you go.....:D

http://ceq.hss.doe.gov/nepa/Citizens_Guide_Dec07.pdf

Seriously? I have replied to your thread, sent you pms and emails to get a hold of me. All of my contact info has been sent to you, I can answer the questions you have about the comment letters and get you going in the direction you need. You have allot of great info and ideas for comment writing now lets get you on the right tract for writing those comments

Check your pms and email and call me.

Shane

Yes you keep telling me to call you I am not a phone guy as soon as I get on a phone my mind goes blank I also like things in writing so I can review them in the future rather than trying to play phone tag.

IMO EVERYTHING You want to tell me on the phone needs typed out here for EVERYBODY to see the info your going to give me is or should be the SAME info your going to give to anybody that wants to be involved?

Here is some great info on the NEPA process. This should answer allot of questions. HoserRZR you have been wanting some information here you go.....:D

http://ceq.hss.doe.gov/nepa/Citizens_Guide_Dec07.pdf


Thanks for the link I read the first 5 pages lost interest sorry not reading 55 pages of something I just dont understand.

I will just start sending emails and comment letters to the BLM if they are not effective thats just too bad a few weeks have gone by why I have been waiting for some examples of what others have been writing I see thats never going to happen so I will just shoot from the hip and let her fly :p

Anyone who is interested in what the BLM intends to do with the offroad trails in the Lake Havasu riding area, will definitely be interested in the compiled "closure" trail map available at: http://offroadinghome.djmed.net/forum/ - land use/havasu (http://offroadinghome.djmed.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=29)

The website Offroading Home has compiled all the current BLM mapping data into one Google Earth file which will let you easily spot trails that you frequent on the map and see what the BLM intends to do with them - UNLESS, you send in an email or letter!

The link above takes you to the Offroading Home forum page where you can download the map as well as click on a link which will let you easily send an email to the BLM Havasu Field Office.

REMEMBER - the deadline for submission of public comment is screaming down on us - OCT 30th 2010.

Perhaps I may be missing something in this thread - but based on looking at it I'm not sure how many, if any, actual letters are really getting sent to the BLM about this.

If anyone is sending or has sent a letter about a specific trail - there is a 'repository' of sorts for copies of your letters over at: http://offroadinghome.djmed.net/forum/ (http://offroadinghome.djmed.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=29).

If you've sent one, and would like to share, that's a great way to give stimulus to those who may be new to this.

-0-

I also see that there has been an occasional question voiced about the master closure map - it's colors, etc. - the forum to have your specific questions answered is over there (Offroading Home) - the compilers of the map. It's a forum designed specifically for offroaders in the western US - and has a forum specific to the Lake Havasu closures.

Perhaps I may be missing something in this thread - but based on looking at it I'm not sure how many, if any, actual letters are really getting sent to the BLM about this.

If anyone is sending or has sent a letter about a specific trail - there is a 'repository' of sorts for copies of your letters over at: http://offroadinghome.djmed.net/forum/ (http://offroadinghome.djmed.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=29).

If you've sent one, and would like to share, that's a great way to give stimulus to those who may be new to this.

-0-

I also see that there has been an occasional question voiced about the master closure map - it's colors, etc. - the forum to have your specific questions answered is over there (Offroading Home) - the compilers of the map. It's a forum designed specifically for offroaders in the western US - and has a forum specific to the Lake Havasu closures.

Little late to the dance amigo. We keep spreading folks out, and we will have no task force. From here will work as a central info point, but please feel free to add or link to answers. We need all the help we can get. I have read some of your articles, and they are good, but if people are carbon copying their letters to several different places, they will get tougher to track and compile. IMO

Thanks.


Rick.

@Easy Rick... Let's stay focused on the issue -

Offroading Home has been producing maps and been involved in this "Dance" for years - just not in THIS particular forum. I've already begun receiving copies of letters sent to the BLM, they are posted at http://offroadinghome.djmed.net/forum/. I am not trying to usurp any "task force" you may want to have here, merely provide a service that, forgive me, I don't see actually happening here. It's becoming a hard to follow, cluttered thread - so I started a new one strictly for BLM letters!

AND, my question still stands - IS/HAS anyone actually sent in a letter to the BLM about a specific trail? If not - please do so; If so - please share it publicly.
RICK, have you sent one in yet? (I assume so, how about sharing it)

Again, the consolidated Google Earth Map is loacted at: Lake Havasu Trail Closure Map (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/567495/specialty/HavasuTrailClosures.kmz) which contains all proposed closures with their "official names" that you should use in your comment submission letter. And a simple Email form at: http://offroadinghome.djmed.net/forum/ (http://offroadinghome.djmed.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=29) - BE SURE AND INCLUDE YOUR NAME, CONTACT INFO AND SPECIFIC TRAIL NUMBER with your comment!

AND, my question still stands - IS/HAS anyone actually sent in a letter to the BLM about a specific trail? If not - please do so; If so - please share it publicly.

My main goal right now is to educate people on how to write substantive comments and get the word out about this.

I will begin writing my comments in October after we get thru these workshops, and we will start a comment thread to post sent in comments right here on Pirate. This has been done many times before here for simular campaigns.

Rick... I know you meant well - BUT -

Offroading Home has been producing maps and been involved in this "Dance" for years - just not in THIS particular forum. I've already begun receiving copies of letters sent to the BLM, they are posted at http://offroadinghome.djmed.net/forum/

AND, my question still stands - IS/HAS anyone actually sent in a letter to the BLM about a specific trail? If not - please do so; If so - please share it publicly.

I was hoping it wasn't taken the wrong way. We need a central place for everyone to find, and this spot has been linked everywhere, so I think it should be the main spot, and link from here to other resources. The face book page is a good spot as well, but you have to be a facebook member to see it, so here is better.IMHO

The number one complaint I have heard about our lack of organization, is that there is no central point for information to refer too. This is it. People are writing letters about certain numbered trails, and we have been asking all along that they carbon copy Kurt ,Shane, or I and we will post them for everyone else to see. The handwritten letters are a little more complicated.

One of our club members set up a google earth map as well that we have started using. Its interactive, and a great tool to help us figure this all out, but its still a bunch of work. I followed your links, and looked all over your site, but did not find any maps. Do you have a link to it? Thanks for your help and dedication DJ.

Rick.

Edit: That link works, thank you.

@Easy Rick... not the owner of the thread, can't speak specifically about it's purpose, title is: "BLM Meeting" which is why it seems at least to me, to have become a bit unfocused from specific action - sorry.

Nearly every post I've made has contained links to the map, not sure why you haven't seen them: Lake Havasu Trail Closure Map (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/567495/specialty/HavasuTrailClosures.kmz).

Territoriality isn't my game - everything on my site is available to you all - including copies of any submitted letters. The thread at: http://offroadinghome.djmed.net/forum/ (http://offroadinghome.djmed.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=29) is open for uncluttered discussion of submitted letters about specific trails only.

RICK, have you sent one in yet? I assume so, how about sharing it!

No, I have not sent one yet. I am tasked with a whole other issue right this second. You see none of our trails are even on the map, so I am working on that issue now. But I am headed out on the 9th and 10th of October to search out some of these listed closures, so that I can write effective comments about the proposed trail closures. Want to join me? We have hundreds of trails to look at, and they are for the most part not even trails that I use. But I am going to go out there and do my part to help everyone else.

Do you know how to create a Lowrance GPS file with just the proposed closures on it? That would make my job alot easier.

Thanks again,
Rick.

@Kurtuleas ... Great! Many have begun sending letters already. My goal is to precipitate those who sometimes think "others are handling it" into easily having their voice count. And no time is too soon to start.

The thread at http://offroadinghome.djmed.net/forum/ (http://offroadinghome.djmed.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=29) has already started the process. Happy to share - probably a good reason to have them on the web early, if the goal is to "teach" people how to respond.

@EasyRick... Maps and trail logging is what I do, so yes I can probably help you with a "closed trails" map or maps. However, please join me on the thread at: http://offroadinghome.djmed.net/forum/ - Havasu Map Final (http://offroadinghome.djmed.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=11) to discuss what trails are still missing from the BLM plan when you say "NONE" of "our" trails - I have communicated directly with BLM IT and may be able to assist.

Back to topic, no judgement - just spur to action based upon my experience in other TMPs in other jurisdictions. As you know a person may send in more than one comment - AND - it's better to send in 5 letters about 1 trail each than to send in 1 letter about 5 trails, based upon the methodology historically used by the BLM in categorizing public responses. And, if you used the email link at http://offroadinghome.djmed.net/forum/ - Simple Comment Technique (http://offroadinghome.djmed.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=29) to comment on ONE trail the you did have concerns about - it could be posted (almost) simultaneously for others to see (not copy) and obtain ideas.

The thread at http://offroadinghome.djmed.net/forum/ (http://offroadinghome.djmed.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=29) has already started the process. Happy to share - probably a good reason to have them on the web early, if the goal is to "teach" people how to respond.

Would you mind me stealing some of that verbage for the Pirate4x4.com letter generator? When we use the generator, we CC all e-mails to several other land-use folks to keep track of.


Also, with 1.6 million hits a day on Pirate, the letter generator gets a lot of traffic...

@Kurtuleas... no problem - let me know what you'd like to accomplish and I'll wordsmith something specifically for you. Two things: First - I would like to be put on that auto cc-list (for western states issues); and Second - where are the specific letters posted? and Third - the Offroading Home network of site's hits aren't at 16k - but heading toward that for the western US. Certainly shared links could be beneficial.

@Kurtuleas... no problem - let me know what you'd like to accomplish and I'll wordsmith something specifically for you. Two things: First - I would like to be put on that auto cc-list (for western states issues); and Second - where are the specific letters posted? and Third - the Offroading Home network of site's hits aren't at 16k - but heading toward that for the western US. Certainly shared links could be beneficial.


1. No problem putting you on the CC list once we get the generator geared up for this next round of letters. We had nearly 1,000 sent in asking to extend the public comment period. I can write the prompt myself..(this is not my first rodeo dealing with stuff like this) but there were a few things that I like on how you worded stuff on your site.

2. We will NOT post up the e-mails sent in. Not only would that be too much work, but some people may not want their comments posted.

We will ask people to post their comments in a thread like what was done here for Eldo:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=607421

Thanks to Shane and Rick. The workshop was informative, and the time you both have put in is appreciated.

the map has a lot of discrepancies. i'm looking at lines on there that end but you see on google earth where the trail connects to another section. then there's other lines that keep going but if you try traveling them you hit a locked gate. the way i understand it they made the map from info provided by the 4x4 clubs a few years ago so i understand things may have changed slightly but then again i look at the date of the imagery and it's a few years old too.
edit: they even have trails on beaver island with no visible way to get there. what are people loading atv's and dirtbikes on boats and going out there? it's not even that big from the looks of it.

the map has a lot of discrepancies. i'm looking at lines on there that end but you see on google earth where the trail connects to another section. then there's other lines that keep going but if you try traveling them you hit a locked gate. the way i understand it they made the map from info provided by the 4x4 clubs a few years ago so i understand things may have changed slightly but then again i look at the date of the imagery and it's a few years old too.

IMO this is why every trail they have set for closure needs to be personally viewed and verified before someone comments, looking at the 1000 + trails? we were not given enough time to do this, if they wanted to close 25 trails I could see the time allotted being perfectly reasonable.

Once the trail is closed its closed for ever its not like 6 months later your going to go to the BLM office and say you didnt realize that closing 'this' trail was going to affect all 'these other trails' by time they are closed your screwed that is unless I have missed the "Undo" button at the BLM site?

what pisses me off is that it looks like they included hiking/mountain biking trails that have been closed to vehicles for a long time or that were inaccessible to vehicles to begin with. that mean a lot of wasted fuel trying to find trails that are hopeless to start. what they should have done is put the 4x4 trails that are closed already in a different color and leave hiking trails off or put them in the same color as the currently closed trails. i just drove around the south end of town going down all the dead ends and through sara park just to confirm that the area was already closed off. i was already pretty sure but i never had a map of the "trail system" before.
i'm sure that they didn't get those trails from the 4x4 clubs so why include them? yes i can see putting them on a final map but for our purposes it just adds clutter.

I am headed out this weekend with a bunch of friends to try and decipher this mess. We are staging in Standard wash, and We will have the large maps and Google earth on hand to bring data back and find out if its closed or not. Unfortunately, after countless hours of trying, we were unable to load the maps BLM provided into Lowrance, so me using my race car to go and track these closures is not going to happen but I think we will have Garmin maps for download. We are going to have to rely on the everyone to help. If you want help or to look at maps, or just come for a campfire beer, look for us down in standard wash from Thursday night through Sunday. My rig is a blue Dodge ram with a fifth wheel Weekend Warrior thats white with blue stripes.

Come say hi, :)

Rick.

I am headed out this weekend with a bunch of friends to try and decipher this mess. We are staging in Standard wash, and We will have the large maps and Google earth on hand to bring data back and find out if its closed or not. Unfortunately, after countless hours of trying, we were unable to load the maps BLM provided into Lowrance, so me using my race car to go and track these closures is not going to happen but I think we will have Garmin maps for download. We are going to have to rely on the everyone to help. If you want help or to look at maps, or just come for a campfire beer, look for us down in standard wash from Thursday night through Sunday. My rig is a blue Dodge ram with a fifth wheel Weekend Warrior thats white with blue stripes.

Come say hi, :)

Rick.

Cool, but could you be a little more specific as far as time and location? Standard wash is pretty large... Anyway i should be there. It's too bad about not being able to put it on lowrance but i have a garmin nuvi. what would i need to download maps for that? just an extra sd card?

Cool, but could you be a little more specific as far as time and location? Standard wash is pretty large... Anyway i should be there. It's too bad about not being able to put it on lowrance but i have a garmin nuvi. what would i need to download maps for that? just an extra sd card?

We will be between the kiosk and the scenic turnout. 75 foot of blue and white roling stock should be visible from any part of the highway as I'm not getting far from it! We may be able to convert too Nuvi. We will have maps, and a lap top, with SD cards and thumb drive, and if you have the cable that came with your GPS, bring it. We will help where we can.

Rick.

9 am friday till noon Sunday

As you are heading out of town, set your odometer at the last signal wich is McCulloch (big orange ball is on left) and go just over 5 miles, there is a big quarry/cement plant on the left. As you pass it there is a break between the gaurd rails on the left, and a road that leads back to a flat area with some trees. The turn off is maybe 200 ft after the left turn lane for the plant. You can't miss it!

See you soon.

Rick.

ok, the campbell redimix place.

Dear fellow outdoor enthusiasts,


This past weekend the Sidewinders of Havasu, and Total Karnage Club of Las Vegas went out to try and map the red lines that are on the Propsed Closure map C. There were also many concerned citizens from the area that showed up with GPS' in hand to try and sort out what are essentially illegible maps. I drove around with my wife and chidren in tow for almost six hours on Saturday with the map we had created in Google Earth pointing the way. The map we made would allow some of the "red lines" from BLM's maps to be loaded into a GPS. There is just one problem with this, and it is that every GPS we had would only allow less than 100 tracks at a time. So we took a small section of only the red lines just East of the Highway in Standard Wash, and went out to find what they are closing. The closures in that area are almost all wide sandy washes. There were a couple that went over hills, and even some that rode off through the hills. The trails in the large sandy washes were what we were concerned with as they were wide enough for a fullsize truck, and accessed a large portion of land that would be all but inaccessible without them. The access alternative map D has these areas all open for that reason. What would the purpose be for closing all of this area? That area has the only trails in Standard wash for Quads, SideXsides, and Motorcycles to use where it is in a raised elevation with sights to see, away from crowded camping and parking areas. The area I am referring to is "Inset Map 5" on the Proposed map C. Closing that land would turn Standard wash into a wasteland in no time at all from over use. In my opinion in less than 5 years the BLM would have all the reason they need to close down the entire area from over use, if people were confined to such a small area.

As for our eperience with a BLM Ranger: Saturday evening around 8PM About 15 people were sitting around a fire pit talking about the day and what to do about the trails when a Ranger pulls up in an SUV. We could not see who he was till he had walked all the way into our camp near the firelight. We exchanged greetings, and then asked "what he wanted?" He said, "Oh nothing, I was just stopping by to see if you had heard anything about trails being closed in the area?" We answered with' "yes we have heard about it." The Ranger then says, "Well, I am just out letting everyone know that its no big deal, they are only closing like two trails." I then said, "Ohh, is that right?" While everyone else began asking him if he was serious, and who told him that, and what ever other questions they came up with in their total disbelief, I went and grabbed my laptop, and presented our BLM overlay map with only the red lines to this fine officer of the Bureau of land management. He was in total disbelief, and said, "What map is that? Thats not the right map, err thats not the map they showed me...." We then began to inform him of what was really going on, and he seemed very upset that he was sent out by the BLM officials to spread this propaganda. He swore that he had no idea they were closing down so much land, and said "he could never enforce all that". We had a lengthy discussion, and I do believe he genuinely felt bad for lying to all the people he had talked to up untill he met us, but you have to wonder how much apathy he created, and he is not the only Ranger, and there are a whole slew of BLM personell as well, possibly spreading the same propaganda as part of their daily encounters.

Think about how the BLM has done us ALL a total disservice. First they try and sneak a public hearing through in the middle of summer with an ambigous at best title and almost no press, after telling clubs earlier this year that they would wait untill November so that everyone could be there. As well they sent NO e-mails to their club or public contacts informing the Public about their Public input opportunity, on August 18th. They present large illegible maps with no refernce points, and a 30 day input period. The public and local gov't pressure for an extension, and force their hand to grant a 45 day extension for the public input period. They then hold other meetings quietly so that the public doesn't show up eg: Mohave county board of supervisors meeting in Kingman. They have a tedious and difficult input process for fighting for each individual trail, that seems like wasted effort, as there is no way of tracking results. They get on the radio weekly and tell the public its no big deal don't worry about it, and that "there are clubs spreading propaganda", so don't listen to them either. They have articles in the paper expressing the same thing. They tell everyone that they cannot enforce it, so don't worry about it. They are sending their officers out with a handshake and a smile to spread lies. The BLM has the gall to say WE are overreacting?

There are over 60 routes proposed closed in an existing riding area (Inset Map 5), while there are 10-15 to be left open. Thats in 16 square miles of a main OHV use area, and we are overreacting? Seriously?

This has to stop, public land needs to remain accessible to the public. They need to hear your voice!

Rick.

Is the BLM employees spreading misinformation even legal?

They flat out lied to me when I asked them for maps see this post in this thread http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11813686&postcount=35

I still have the email they sent me...

I thought the BLM worked for the tax payers? then they lie to us, IMO heads need to roll a investigation needs to be done and those responsible need removed from the BLM system let them go work for walmart.

Is the BLM employees spreading misinformation even legal?

They flat out lied to me when I asked them for maps see this post in this thread http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11813686&postcount=35

I still have the email they sent me...

I thought the BLM worked for the tax payers? then they lie to us, IMO heads need to roll a investigation needs to be done and those responsible need removed from the BLM system let them go work for walmart.

All govt works for themselves with occasional oversight due to public knowledge/ ending up in the lime light, therefore they must all lie to make the job of passing their agendas easy with as little resistance as possible.IMO



Here are some good links for writing leters, and more information on how to go about it.


http://havasu4wheelers.org/TMP_Comments.html



http://havasu4wheelers.org/

Here is the press release sent out yesterday. BLM has chosen to extend the comment period again until February 28th 2011. This will give our winter residence a chance to GPS their trails and get them into BLM. If you need help with maps or doing GPSing please feel free to contact me so we can get you pointed in the right direction.

Shane

Date: October 18, 2010
For More Information Contact:
Mike Brown, (928) 718-3756


BLM TRAVEL MANAGEMENT PLANNING COMMENT PERIOD EXTENDED AGAIN


Lake Havasu City, Ariz. - The public comment period for the Havasu Travel
Management Plan and Environmental Assessment has been extended an
additional four months to February 28, 2011.


“Since the public comment period started in August, we’ve received
over 1,200 comments for consideration when we prepare the Environmental
Assessment for the Havasu Travel Management Plan,” said Bureau of Land
Management Lake Havasu Field Manager Ramone McCoy.


“Many people requested we extend the deadline so that winter visitors
have a chance to comment and participate in the process as well,” McCoy
added. “The Mohave County Board of Supervisors and Lake Havasu City
elected officials also requested more time at recent meetings with BLM.”


McCoy concluded that the additional time will also allow BLM to look
at routes that people have commented about or feel that BLM missed during
the inventory process. Particular attention will be given to dry washes as
they must be inventoried and mapped to be included in the trails network.


The Environmental Assessment will evaluate all of the motorized and
non-motorized routes of travel and their affected resources in the current
inventory of existing routes in the study area. The Assessment will have
three transportation route network alternatives designating each route as
open, limited or closed. The Havasu Travel Management Planning area
generally includes public lands in the Lake Havasu Field Office south of
Interstate 40 (both sides of the Colorado River), extending to five to
seven miles north of the Bill Williams River.


Maps of the Havasu Unit can be reviewed online at
http://www.blm.gov/az/st/en/fo/lake_havasu_field.html or by contacting
Myron McCoy, Outdoor Recreation Planner at the BLM Lake Havasu Field
Office, 2610 Sweetwater, Lake Havasu City, AZ 86406; Telephone (928)
505-1216.


Public comments for consideration during the Environmental Assessment
preparation need to be postmarked by February 28, 2011. Comments may also
be faxed – (928) 505-1208 or emailed to lake_havasu@blm.gov.
-blm-

http://www.blm.gov/az/st/en/info/newsroom/2010/october/tmp-comments.html

That's good news, thanks for the heads up.

It will give me a chance to get out there and check it out. I'll help out any way I can.

Hi all, finally here I am ready to map trails for the BLM, is someone keeping track of all the GPS data and the trails they have mapped then submitted to the BLM so we know whats been mapped already?

I need to see whats already been mapped I dont want to duplicate work already done then end up NOT mapping some trails and them not being submitted to the BLM

I know DJ already has a map of what the BLM had back in late September but has it been updated or has people just been sending their GPS data to the BLM?

Here is the linkI have to the map DJ had refined using the data that the BLM had supplied to him http://offroadinghome.djmed.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=29

I havent had many updates on the Havasu closure issue can someone bring me up to date? Nothing new here and no updates n the facebook (click on "WALL" to see the 'discussions' on the land closure its not under "DISCUSSIONS" where you would normally "discuss" things) since 10/4/10.

Sorry for all the dumb questions just trying to help out where I can ride on!

Met a couple out on the trail today they were on foot hiking stopped to talk to them and asked if they had heard about the closure they said they had not heard a word but they were appalled at the idea of closing off one square foot of public lands said they were going to get involved, they said they seen nothing on the news nothing in the news paper, nothing posted at the RV park they are staying at in Havasu.

They are snow birds.

Thought better notification was being one locally maybe someone can distribute fliers to all the local businesses that attract snow birds and when they check in to the RV park have the workers give them a copy?

Try to send the guy to the facebook page thing he said "we dont facebook so wont be going there" they also were asking why their is not a "savehavasu.com" or similar webpage so they could get updates.

I sent them to the BLM office to see Myron McCoy they both were all fired up about the thought of restricting use of public lands hopefully they will follow through they wanted to see the maps.