Has anyone seen this on ECR's site:

Ultra Duty CV joints and half shaft for your ABS equipped Rover!!
Range Rover 1993-1995
Discovery I 1994-1999
Defender 90 1994-1997


At long last a simple to install, yet tough as nails, CV joint and axle combination for your Range Rover, Discovery I or Defender is now available. The stock axle in your Disco or Defender is only 1.030" thick. These new heavy duty axles are 1.161" thick, and that's nearly as thick as some of the heavy duty American truck axles! These set ups also get rid of the way too small 32 spline inner star in the CV joint that is prone to failure, and replace it with a much larger 27 tooth set up for durability. The CV joints are made from cryogenically stabilized aviation grade alloy steel. The internals are heat treated and made from a material called 300M that is also heat treated to be even tougher.
The best news is that, unlike our 1 ton set up, these pieces will drop right into your Rover without making any modifications or adding other costly parts, and you can use them with your alloy wheel if you like!

HD 24 spline/ 27 spline axle and CV joint LH assembly $550.
HD 24 spline/ 27 spline axle and CV joint RH assembly $550.

This sounds like a custom made setup (like the CV's Bill at GBR is having made up), but I know Bill is using 23/24 spline axles (not 27/24 spline like these).

Bill R.

Originally posted by FrankenRover
These new heavy duty axles are 1.161" thick, and that's nearly as thick as some of the heavy duty American truck axles!

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

like WHAT?!?! a Dana 27??? LOL!!!

way too big of bucks for me. id rather take a set of warn 30 spline axleshafts (which are 1.31" thick) and CTMs (also 300M).

why drop $1100 on a pair of CVs and still have to buy upgraded axleshafts when for a little more you could have full warns and CTMs that you will not break? oh and not to mention lifetime warrenty on the shafts and joints.

ECR is great for the deep pocketed, bolt on kinda people, but for real wheelers who understand breakage they are a ripoff.

Adam I couldn't of said it better myself! :D

Not defending them Adam, but the price includes the axle shafts. Total for the front setup is $1100.

And what do you think it would cost for your D44 axles splined for the rover diff, what hubs would you use, etc, etc. Thats a bit more than most want to do.

Plus these are ABS friendly. So if you have a 97 or newer Rover you will throw check engine lights left and right with your proposed setup.

Anyway, I agree that ECR is usually overpriced, but I would like to have more info on this setup. It is way cheaper than the GBR 110 CV 23/24 spline Maxi setup.

Your dismissal of this is interesting though, open your mind brotha!

Billster

my mind is plenty open, my wallet isnt!!! :D

drive flanges are easy, call up McNamara in AU and have them ship you a set of 30 spline drive flanges. either that or make your own.

i find it very hard to believe that that price includes inner AND outer axleshafts. look at what GBR charges for their full front kit, 1299 for inner axleshafts, a HD star and cage, and outer axleshafts. what makes you think you could get a inner axleshaft, complete custom 300M CV joint, and outer axleshaft for 1100? wont happen.

once again, my mind is open. but once i evaluate somethings usefullness and it fails (miserably in this case), my mind closes to it and moves on :D

not bashing you just voicing my opinion.

edit- the ABS issue. ABS SUCKS!!! at least here in the northeast, ABS hinders you offroad because instead of locking up the wheels and allowing them to grab a root or rock, they roll over them and keep on going. this is a very bad situation when you are sliding downhill towards a small lake!

Originally posted by FrankenRover

Plus these are ABS friendly. So if you have a 97 or newer Rover you will throw check engine lights left and right with your proposed setup.


Billster

ABS sucks offroad and it's the first fuse I pull when I go wheeling.

How about reading the website info Adam:

HD 24 spline/ 27 spline "AXLE" and CV joint LH assembly $550.
HD 24 spline/ 27 spline "AXLE" and CV joint RH assembly $550.

Its right on their website. Now, will they honor that price? I do not see why not. Why would they post those number then?

BTW. Unless you are talking about the old Rangie 3 piece outer axle, CV, inner axle (which are pretty good anyway with upgraded inner axles), then there is no such thing as an outer axle on these modern Rovers. As this is an integral part of the CV itself.

ABS sucks offroad - I agree, but all of the '97 D90's and all of the '97+ Disco 1's have ABS rings on the CV's and sensors (even though the D90 does not have ABS) and will throw check engine lights if you put in non-abs ring equipped CV's. Maybe not a problem for some of you that don't live in an emission savy county. But that is an instant inspection failure here in Houston.

A bolt in set of axles that is an upgrade from the stock setup, that is somewhat reasonable (by Rover aftermarket standards) would sell like hotcakes.

Would you care to explain what exactly would be involved with your Warn axle answer? I think this is a "hardcore" option for those of us that want to run really big tires (and is currently being worked on as we speak).

How about addressing the drive flanges? Sure you can get the right spline count, but what about the other specs (like diameter and spline depth and such). Does MaxiDrive have these on the shelf? If not I doubt they would custom make them for you unless you ordered a bunch or they saw a large market for them (which there is not).

How about addressing the interface between the stub axle and the outer axle shaft for us? Anyone, anyone? Will you machine out the stub axle for a roller bearing that will exactly fit the Warn outer axle, or use a bushing? How about axle seals?

How about the Warn axles? How you gonna get um? They are certainly not off the shelf parts. I know Mike S. had some made up and fitted. But the cost was significant.

You could just scrap the whole front axle for a non-LR setup like Adam Way. But that is beyond 99% of even dedicated LR enthusiast offroaders.

Anyway, dismiss away - it may be your loss.

Billster

Originally posted by FrankenRover


ABS sucks offroad - I agree, but all of the '97 D90's and all of the '97+ Disco 1's have ABS rings on the CV's and sensors (even though the D90 does not have ABS) and will throw check engine lights if you put in non-abs ring equipped CV's.

Billster

My 96 has ABS and ABS rings on my Cv's and when I pull the fuse under the hood I have no problems with codes or lights . I do have the Alex Pepper OBDII scanner so if it was a problem with the CEL a quick reset is 5 minutes away.

comments follow-

"HD 24 spline/ 27 spline "AXLE" and CV joint LH assembly $550.
HD 24 spline/ 27 spline "AXLE" and CV joint RH assembly $550.

Its right on their website. Now, will they honor that price? I do not see why not. Why would they post those number then?

BTW. Unless you are talking about the old Rangie 3 piece outer axle, CV, inner axle (which are pretty good anyway with upgraded inner axles), then there is no such thing as an outer axle on these modern Rovers. As this is an integral part of the CV itself."

i believe that they are indeed referring to the outer axle because most CV kits are for the earlier CVs which are separate, as you state. they have to clarify.

"ABS sucks offroad - I agree, but all of the '97 D90's and all of the '97+ Disco 1's have ABS rings on the CV's and sensors (even though the D90 does not have ABS) and will throw check engine lights if you put in non-abs ring equipped CV's. Maybe not a problem for some of you that don't live in an emission savy county. But that is an instant inspection failure here in Houston."

solution A- pull the check engine light bulb.
solution B- make freinds with the inspection guy (i chose B :D )

"A bolt in set of axles that is an upgrade from the stock setup, that is somewhat reasonable (by Rover aftermarket standards) would sell like hotcakes."

i am not debating this fact. it should prove to be a great mod for the bolt on guys.

"Would you care to explain what exactly would be involved with your Warn axle answer? I think this is a "hardcore" option for those of us that want to run really big tires (and is currently being worked on as we speak)."

30 spline ARB, warn axleshafts cut to length (call Timm), CTM u joints ($125/ea), 30 spline drive flanges from mcnamara (off the shelf item).

"How about addressing the drive flanges? Sure you can get the right spline count, but what about the other specs (like diameter and spline depth and such). Does MaxiDrive have these on the shelf? If not I doubt they would custom make them for you unless you ordered a bunch or they saw a large market for them (which there is not)."

addressed above, macnamara has 1.31" 30 spline drive flanges for use with rear axle kits, they will work on the front with a 1.31" warn alloy axle.

"How about addressing the interface between the stub axle and the outer axle shaft for us? Anyone, anyone? Will you machine out the stub axle for a roller bearing that will exactly fit the Warn outer axle, or use a bushing? How about axle seals?"

it is addressed exactly the same way that going full 30 spline on the rear is. machine the spindles.

"How about the Warn axles? How you gonna get um? They are certainly not off the shelf parts. I know Mike S. had some made up and fitted. But the cost was significant."

off the shelf? no, but you just have to buy a set that are longer than what you need and send them to someone like moser who can cut and respline them.

"You could just scrap the whole front axle for a non-LR setup like Adam Way. But that is beyond 99% of even dedicated LR enthusiast offroaders."

once again i am not debating this fact, it should be a great mod for the bolt on guys.

I love the mod. Thanks for posting the information Bill. The reason I say this is that, competition drives prices down. Usually a smart company will check out the demand for products before introducing them. So it looks like the market for heavier duty axles is still high. Maybe, this will set a small trend and show vendors that having something less expensive (slightly) that is still a decent mod will be a big hit.

Way

P.S. Not saying this because I hate Bill Davis at GBR (even though I do....:D ) but just like to see more options out there. :flipoff2:

A few more points.

I disagree with your thinking that the they are offering "3 piece" front setups (an outer axle, a seperate CV with splined input and outputs on either end, and an inner axle) and not telling you the price of the inner axles. Seems a stretch from the supplied text on the page.

You state "most CV kits are for the earlier CVs which are separate". What you been smokin man, show me a single CV kit with a seperate outer axle (besides the KAM kit that has never actually been sold), or the stuff some of the Aussie guys have used.

As for the front hub part. Unlike the rear stub axle, the front has a bearing/bushing on the inside surface. Your thoughts about using the 30 spline rear drive flanges in the front is allright, but machining out the stub axles is not going to address this lack of support for the spining and turning CV or U-jointed assembly.

Be ready to do some major repairs when your Warn axle ujoint assembly is tumbling around inside the swivel ball/stub axle with no support in the stub axle (just machining out the stub axle will not address the bearing/bushing issue). This bearing (bushing on the early 110 hubs) supports the rotation of the CV and is necessary to keep the stuff from banging against the sides of the stub axle.

In theory your Warn axle setup with CTM's and Mac flanges sounds pretty good. But you have to really look at the details.

Is anyone actually running this setup? How did they handle the stub axle bearing issue? Will the warn axle outer's splined end actually fit inside a Mac 30 spline flange (do you know for a fact?). Are the Warn axle outers the right length for all this to work and put the ujoint in the center of the swivel assembly? If not then you have 4 axles to cut and weld to custom length (not that I would want to run on a cut and resplined or welded axle shaft anyway).

And what about the axle seals?

Would Warn warranty axles that have been modified? Prolly not.

How much will all of this stuff cost? 30 spline ARB, gear setup on this ARB, machined stub axles with new support bearings, Warn axles with the inner and outer axles cut to custom length and rewelded or resplined (assuming Timm could fit you in to his schedule), new flanges? I would guess way over $2000 before you got finished. Not to mention all the extra time doing it (if you can setup gears and change out axles).

Check engine light - the inspectors here make sure it lights up when you turn on the key. Not to mention, alot of folks would prolly like to have ABS on the street.

Adam, you are doing what alot of guys do on topics like this. You have alot (and I mean alot) of info about the topic, facts, and figures , websites and such. But no practical experience with the thing you are talking about. Have I seen any picts of you wheelin (other than your avatar picts) or fixin broken stuff, or workin' on your project rigs, or anything practical? NO. Please enlighten us with your custom axle practical experience?

I am not trying to ruffle your feathers, but I can't stand know-it-alls that offer advice that is not based on their own experience. I do however appreciate your input at times, so keep it coming.


Billster

:flipoff2:

Originally posted by Old Scout


My 96 has ABS and ABS rings on my Cv's and when I pull the fuse under the hood I have no problems with codes or lights . I do have the Alex Pepper OBDII scanner so if it was a problem with the CEL a quick reset is 5 minutes away.

You are missing the point here Old Scout. If you change to non-abs CV's or ujointed axles, you will run a CEL all the time every day (at least my D90 did when running the AEU 2522 CV's which have no abs ring). If you are okay with running a CEL all the time (which some people are, and some aren't) then that is okay.

Are you going to hook up your scanner every day to make sure it is not something else going on? I reset mine a few times and it always came right back on. I would not have been able to reset the light anywhere but right in the parking lot of the inspection station and not have a CEL illuminate before I got there.

Billster

Originally posted by FrankenRover


You are missing the point here Old Scout. If you change to non-abs CV's or ujointed axles, you will run a CEL all the time every day (at least my D90 did when running the AEU 2522 CV's which have no abs ring). If you are okay with running a CEL all the time (which some people are, and some aren't) then that is okay.

Are you going to hook up your scanner every day to make sure it is not something else going on? I reset mine a few times and it always came right back on. I would not have been able to reset the light anywhere but right in the parking lot of the inspection station and not have a CEL illuminate before I got there.

Billster

If you pull the fuse you don't trip the light!

bill- how about this. i am going wheeling this coming weekend and i promise i will break a 10 spline for you so i can post some pics of me fixing it :flipoff2:

all my statements are based off of personal experiences i have read on this board (both LR and other). i like to try and collect all of the gathered information and make sense of it all in an application that will work for me (and maybe others).

as for the bearing/bushing support for the outer axle, well hopefully Mike will be able to clarify :D

Adam, you are doing what alot of guys do on topics like this. You have alot (and I mean alot) of info about the topic, facts, and figures , websites and such. But no practical experience with the thing you are talking about. Have I seen any picts of you wheelin (other than your avatar picts) or fixin broken stuff, or workin' on your project rigs, or anything practical? NO. Please enlighten us with your custom axle practical experience?

Adam Check...or Adam Way????

Originally posted by Old Scout


If you pull the fuse you don't trip the light!

Do you have non-abs ringed CV's in your truck? If not then are you sure that you will not get a CEL with the ABS fuse pulled while using a non-ABS ringed CV? Is there some connection between the sensors and the ECU that does not pass through the ABS brain?

The '97 D90 has abs rings and sensors, but no abs module or brake controller. And has no fuse to pull. The ABS sensors are used for wheel speed sensors in the 90 for some reason. Not sure why though.

Billster

Originally posted by Way


Adam Check...or Adam Way????

Adam Check

I agree with billster here.

Putting d44 axles into a rover housing would be a lot of work and if you got the ability to make that happen it would be a lot easier to swap in a complete d44 and save all the rooting around. Putting d44 knuckles on a rover housing and a toy centre would be in the same boat also (in both cases changing the stud pattern would have to be done)


Now if somebody affered a kit to put the d44axles in the rover housing then may be a possibility but I doubt that would be cheeper than $1100.

Sam

Originally posted by Way


Adam Check...or Adam Way????
Jeez. Did you really HAVE to ask? :rolleyes:



Billster.

Finally, something that would work for my truck? but it's only 93and up? I would think that it would be backwards (non-abs) compatible. Y'all know my weakness in axles so please flame/explain away.

j

Cool. Finally a topic I have REAL experience with (unlike the winching thing. I don't even own a winch!!!!! Electric winches suck!!!!):flipoff2:

Anyway.....

9V, I hate to burst your bubble, but the Warn axle thing was really just an experiment, we had 3 sets made up, one set is trashed/toasted/demolished beyond repair, one set is in Chicago and the third set is in the Serious One.

Timm will probably (in all likelihood) never have another set made up. In fact, if I destroy mine, I am already working on a better solution.

Hint: Save your pennies. Something stronger than any Rover CV GBR/ECR/Mac/anyone can dream up is on it's way. Trust me. WAY stronger (not Adam Way).

But, to answer some questions.

The Warn axles we had custom made had to have both the inner *and* outer shafts cut/extended/shortened/resplined etc.... to match the factory lengths. We are 24 spline on the inside, not 30. Read: expen$ive.

The stub axle has to be machined, and instead of a roller-type bearing we are using brass bushings that are also custom machined and press fit into the stub axles. Read: expen$ive.

We also had lower swivel pins custom made too. Probably didn't need to, but we did anyway. Read: unnecessarily expen$ive

Sam is right, it is much more than US$1100 to do all of the above. Even without the stub axles it is still way more.

Axle seals? Don't run them.

Warranty? Don't even ask. IF you had the axles made (unlikely), and IF you broke them (kind of likely I suppose, eventually), and IF you approached Warn with a warantee claim they will ask you to prove that they actually made the axles for you (which you couldn't). IOW, I'm fawked when they're toast.

Which is why I plan to transplant the crewcab's front axle into the Serious One if and when I ever break the UJ front axles.

What will I put into the crew cab???? Something beefy *and* LR. Think Dana 80 or 90-ish type strength. Bolt in? Well, kind of. Cheap? Hehe, no (I wish). Custom? Yep. Something worth waiting for? Definitely.

I am not in any kind of marketing agreement with either Timm or BCB OffRoad, so I'll let them tell everyone what it is they have up their sleeve.

But, if/when I get a little bird whispering sweet nothings into my ear then I like to give people the heads-up.

So, again, I hate to burst a bubble, but the Warn axle conversion for LR's is a dead end.

TRUST me I TRIED to get Warn excited about it, so did Timm, and we both approached different people on different teams about it. They STILL didn't get the idea that there was a worldwide marketing audience rather than just a few D90 cooks here in the states that would ante up for them.

Anyway, enough about Warn. You guys know that they make crappy winches don't you? :flipoff2:

It will be quite beneficaial to all of us consumers if indeed, ECR has come out with a product that competes directly with Bill and GBR. I myself, like many of you, have been struggling to find a decent front end CV replacement to fit into my abs housings. I was almost set on the early 110 cv's, but I was not too excited about the work involved to make them fit. At this point, however, it might be prudent to wait and see if a little competition brings Bill back to reality as far as his pricing is concerned. Also, regarding sir Slades proposal of a BCB alternative, if its what I think it is, it is indeed worth waiting for. The decisions could drive a sane man mad!;)

http://www.cvunlimited.com/form.html

they have a land rover cv joint and axle listed on their site. i don't know much about it. they have been making toy cv for some time.

Drew

I talked to them at MAR (cvunlimited) and they really didn't seem to know much about rovers but they did say that they were going to stand behind them 100% but they are 600 a piece!!!! Just for the cv!!! Don't really know what they expect you to run behind it but hey I guess we can just get Adam to get some Warn Cromo Shafts built for us and we'll be set. But their policy was you break it we give you a new one. Could be interresting to see. I don't know if the salesman was just unsure of his product but he said nothing about shafts and they also didn't have a sample because they said it wasn't going to be ready until the week after MAR (which was two weeks ago now) I guess someone needs to drop the dough and see what happens. Not going to be me though I'm still trying to get a stock cv. (By the way John if KC calls remind him about that cv and short shaft you have)

-ben

Very interesting...Looks like GBR has a machinest in his back pocket, because AFAIK NOBODY has a (or even has thought of) a 300M star and cage...And if he's goin that far, he might as well cut some axles that don't taper down as far as stock. I betcha' that this set-up is going to work very well...Especially with cryo'd 300M. I just don't see how he can do it so cheap...300M is some wild stuff and $$$$!


O'yea, I heard from a reputable source that Warn WILL NOT warranty their axles IF you use CTM's...Dunno' how they would ever know if you did or not, but that's what I hear.]

--D

Originally posted by RockRover
O'yea, I heard from a reputable source that Warn WILL NOT warranty their axles IF you use CTM's...Dunno' how they would ever know if you did or not, but that's what I hear.]

--D [/B]

That is true about the warantee, also true about the fact that they wouldn't know unless you told them.

Just thought I would throw my .02 in regarding ECR. If these "new" axles and CV's are Ashcroft, I would stay away from them. It seems the Ashcroft stuff breaks like matchsticks compared to my Maxi-Drive stuff. At the Rally this year an unnamed person broke 3 Ashcroft axles running the same trails as I with the same size tires. He apparently buys them directly from Ashcroft in bulk (no kidding). This says a lot about the durability of their stuff. Personally I don't really like working on my truck at the trail, maybe it's just me, I would rather spend a few extra bucks and not worry about it.

Of course Your Mileage may vary, just one man's thoughts.

BTW I realize thay Way doesn't really like Bill, but Maxi-drive is really good stuff.

All-in-all I am very happy with my set-up...... Now that it's paid for. It was damn expensive but I have the utmost confidense it will hold up for me. I still need to "Longfield" my CV's, but that's a winter project.

Bombproof humm, how about a salisbury out of a 101. CV looks like a giant grapefruit.

Naaaaaaaah those are hard to find :)

Ron

Bombproof humm, how about a salisbury out of a 101. CV looks like a giant grapefruit.

Naaaaaaaah those are hard to find just like the tractas in my series I (insaneighty-inch) :)

Wonder how strong the tractas are?

Ron

Originally posted by evilfij


Wonder how strong the tractas are?

Ron

REAAALLLLLYYYYY strong.

Like maybe Dana 80 or 90 strong.

;)

Originally posted by Serious One


REAAALLLLLYYYYY strong.

Like maybe Dana 80 or 90 strong.

;)

Hmmmmmmm....I'm gonna' reserve judgement on them until I hear about some real-world testing...However, keep in mind that the closed knuck D70 has Tracta joints too. And well....They are about as tough as a 297x. Okay, maybe not that whimpy :) but they sure don't live up to what the mind's eye say's a front Dana 70 should be.

--D

Originally posted by Serious One


REAAALLLLLYYYYY strong.

Like maybe Dana 80 or 90 strong.

;)

Hmmmmmmm....I'm gonna' reserve judgement on them until I hear about some real-world testing...However, keep in mind that the closed knuck D70 has Tracta joints too. And well....They are about as tough as a 297x. Okay, maybe not that whimpy :) but they sure don't live up to what the mind's eye say's a front Dana 70 should be.

--D