TELLICO UPDATE- AUGUST 24, 2010

From: Greg Mumm
Executive Director
BlueRibbon Coalition

These days, we are often asked one or both of the following questions, 1) “What is going on with the Tellico lawsuit?” and 2) Why bother with the fight there when the trails are being obliterated before the courts can decide anything?”

For those who aren’t familiar with the issues surrounding Tellico, it’s appropriate to start with a brief history. Mind you, there is more to it than what we share here—much more—but that is an emotionally charged discussion for another time.

For all intent and purpose, the Forest Service, under outside pressure of a threatened lawsuit, began the process of closing the trail system in Tellico in late 2007. It began with an emergency closure order. Following that, and arguably as a result of pressure from a legal action of our own, the Forest Service conducted formal planning that predictably resulted in a decision to permanently close the system and “rehabilitate” most of the trails.

We don’t agree with that decision. The partnership of Southern, BRC and United filed an administrative appeal, as did others, all of which were denied by the appeals deciding officer. Faced with the outcome of either quietly accepting the decision of the Forest Service to close Tellico or take legal action, we opted for the latter, and the partner groups filed the necessary 60 day notice of intent to sue under the Clean Water Act.

Ironically, as we did so, the Forest Service quickly began the process of obliterating the trails. That action on the part of the Forest Service necessitated the step of the partnership groups formally filing a separate legal action in May of 2010.

Cases like this are not simple to litigate. Nor are they quick. In fact, the proposed litigation schedule on the current case stretches into mid-July of 2011. Meantime, through their contractor, the Forest Service is continuing to obliterate the trails and the bottom line is there are only two ways to get a quicker answer from the courts: 1) a preliminary injunction, or 2) seek a solution through mediation. We debated both options and, under the advice of legal counsel, the partner groups decided to seek a solution through mediation, and with good reason.

Contrary to what many assert, obtaining an injunction is very challenging to achieve. The courts give broad deference to agency actions as long as the agency isn’t acting irrationally.

Many would rightly argue that it is the lack of rational thought in all of the Forest Service actions in Tellico that is at the core of the whole issue here. However, it is another thing altogether to convince a federal judge that, under the law, the recreation groups have or will suffer “irreparable harm.” Especially since the counter argument is simply that anything being done in Tellico now can just as easily be undone later should the judge ultimately rule in our favor.

On the other hand, choosing the mediation route, as we have, allows for “out of the box” solutions to come into play, and the potential for long-term solutions is only limited by the resolve and the creativity brought to the table. If no solution is reached, mediation also leaves the door open to put it back in the hands of the judge to decide on the merits of the case.

So, the answer to the first question is that we are going to mediation, the first session of which is scheduled for mid-September.

Which brings up the second question regarding what is there to gain through mediation or the lawsuit in Tellico, particularly once “all the trails are gone.” The fact is there is not only much to be gained, but so much more to avoid losing.

There are three primary goals that we have always had and will continue to have for the Tellico legal action:

1) Turn the corner on advocacy encouraging the Forest Service to manage FOR this type of recreation instead of FROM it
2) Establish meaningful and well managed trails in Tellico and beyond
3) Ensure confidence in the validity of the public process and agency partnerships

What is happening in Tellico won’t stay in Tellico. Frankly, we have seen this ongoing saga everywhere across the country. If we don’t draw the line here, what is going to happen with the next planning process… and the one after that? Whether you want to define it as the Agency lacking the necessary skill-sets to manage for recreation, or whether you want to call it a fear of being sued by the extreme anti-access crowd, or even just a negative OHV attitude, something has to change or we are going to continue to be steamrolled into oblivion. It is time to send a very clear message that the Forest Service can no longer play “dumb” and ignore their Congressional mandate to take an active role in managing for recreation.

Yes, we are hopeful of re-establishing meaningful and sustainable, vehicle-based, trails in Tellico and/or other areas of the Nantahala National Forest. More importantly, this case has broader national implications. There is no question that recreational access is under attack. Issues like Tellico provide an opportunity to demonstrate the resolve, effectiveness, and creativity of our advocacy effort.

We need your continued support and ask that you not listen to those who throw up their arms and walk away saying, “What’s the point? The Forest Service is going to do whatever they want anyway.” We cannot give up. Please donate to Rescue Tellico today to help protect the trails where you are. You can give that tax deductible donation quickly and securely online at www.sharetrails.org/rescue-tellico.

I went out there today to take a little look around and the road crew has turned Trail #4 into a muddy mess with springs popping up everywhere. I would love to see the place with a heavy rain, there is no way the can stop the mud slide from getting away from that road. I made another observation as well, Upper#2 is now a logging road. So by my accounts, Trails Upper#2, Lower#2, #4, #5 and not to mention #1 are graded/paved into oblivion and the dozers running full bore. Not a whole lot left!:mad3:

#7 (Peckerwood), #9 (Slickrock), #11 (Guardrail & Helicopter Pad) and #12 (Schoolbus). Not to mention pinch rock and v-notch. I still think there's some left ;)

I've been riding motorcycles in Tellico since back in the '70s and it's a sad sight to watch the demise of these trails. Unfortunately, our government seems to be quite good at removing people from land, when they want to.
Just ask a Cherokee Indian.
The legislators that have control over the folks in the forest service are the key to turning this trend around. IMHO

Best quote I have seen to date.... and too sad, but as we showed the Brits, we can fight as well. Unfortunately, our government seems to be quite good at removing people from land, when they want to.
Just ask a Cherokee Indian.
The legislators that have control over the folks in the forest service are the key to turning this trend around. IMHO

SO they plan to try and talk them out of Obliteration? That would be intresting. :D

I find it unfathomable that the government allows companies to tear the top off mountains is search of coal, but then cant provide a little acreage for OHV use.

I find it unfathomable that the government allows companies to tear the top off mountains is search of coal, but then cant provide a little acreage for OHV use.

I dont. stripping woodlands for walmarts, and stripping mountaintops for coal all generate a shit-ton of jobs, and money.

OHV activity, by comparison doesnt amount to a pile of shit.

but im with ya :mad3:

y2knole, bottom line your an idiot. if you dont have anything positive to say keep your mouth shut

I dont. stripping woodlands for walmarts, and stripping mountaintops for coal all generate a shit-ton of jobs, and money.

OHV activity, by comparison doesnt amount to a pile of shit.

but im with ya :mad3:

Apparently you haven't read any of the economic studies that put a $ amount on economic impact and activity generated by OHV use - it was even shown in the USFS report to be MUCH more than that of the fishermen.

The statement above makes no sense at all. Its just gibberish with a plea for $$$ at the end.

So has the SWFDA actually filed a REAL lawsuit or is the plan to just ask the FS nicely to not close the trails that have already been bulldozed?


Im perfectly fine with the FS eliminating the existing trails if they would allow new ones to be built further away from the river so the fish huggers and tree huggers would be happy. But Ive not seen this option mentioned anywhere.

Plus tree huggers never seem to have any trouble getting immediate emergency injunctions whenever they want them.

So has the SWFDA actually filed a REAL lawsuit or is the plan to just ask the FS nicely to not close the trails that have already been bulldozed?




chirp chirp.... it sure gets quiet when people ask about the law suit being filed :( Any updates??

So has the SWFDA actually filed a REAL lawsuit or is the plan to just ask the FS nicely to not close the trails that have already been bulldozed?

chirp chirp.... it sure gets quiet when people ask about the law suit being filed :( Any updates??

...we opted for the latter, and the partner groups filed the necessary 60 day notice of intent to sue under the Clean Water Act.

edit: there's a meeting on the 24th with the Forest Service to discuss "options"

...we opted for the latter, and the partner groups filed the necessary 60 day notice of intent to sue under the Clean Water Act.

edit: there's a meeting on the 24th with the Forest Service to discuss "options"

When and where?

it's on the 24th of this month (Sept) but I don't know where at this point. if I find out, they may not want me to share that information but I'll try to share what I can.

Any updates??

Any updates??

x2 It's the 29th.

Apparently you haven't read any of the economic studies that put a $ amount on economic impact and activity generated by OHV use - it was even shown in the USFS report to be MUCH more than that of the fishermen.

I have read them.

but the point I replied to was not comparing OHV activity to fishermen. it was comparing energy mining and walmarts to OHV activity.

those are both multi-billion dollar industries... compared to coal mining of walmarts, OHVers dont amt to much when it comes to getting our way...

no where did I say I thought that was 'right'... it just is what it is, and I dislike it as much as anyone else who cares enough to be here...

Long Gone

I have read them.

but the point I replied to was not comparing OHV activity to fishermen. it was comparing energy mining and walmarts to OHV activity.

those are both multi-billion dollar industries... compared to coal mining of walmarts, OHVers dont amt to much when it comes to getting our way...

no where did I say I thought that was 'right'... it just is what it is, and I dislike it as much as anyone else who cares enough to be here...

Gotcha.

I did get a chuckle when you said "compared to coal mining of walmarts" :D

I've heard what the talks brought to the table. It's not much. However, I'll let JC or someone else in Southern give the official notification of what was discussed.

so r they talkin new trails or what. is there any talk of keepin the orv up there at all.
just like the gov. to screw up a good thing

I've heard what the talks brought to the table. It's not much. However, I'll let JC or someone else in Southern give the official notification of what was discussed.


Any idea on how long it will take them to announce the news here?

I wouldnt expect anything in the next few days with everyone from SFWDA at Dixie Run...

they're announcing the news at Dixie Run this weekend on Saturday. Gregg Mum is showing up to talk about it. Cool on one hand but from my understanding they didn't tell anyone he was showing. I think it's supposed to be a surprise. I have no problem telling everyone now because if you're reading this you're probably not at the event and it doesn't matter. There's supposed to be a press release coming shortly.

I have no problem telling everyone now because if you're reading this you're probably not at the event and it doesn't matter. There's supposed to be a press release coming shortly.

Well??

On a side note, if you haven't noticed the new CRAWL has an article about Tellico, refering to it as our "Alamo". I really hope it can be that for us and we actually win this amazing piece of 4wheeling back!

Violins??

well?

All right assholes here's the news but first a small tidbit.

This morning I got canned from SFWDA as the newsletter guy. It probably won't be long before I get kicked from the super secret SFWDA Board of Directors section on the Southern board so I'll share what I know.

We met with a mediator and the USFS (Marisue Hilliard and lawyer) at Charlotte, NC. The FS's initial offer was the same BS we heard before, drop the lawsuit and we will help you work with the state of NC and try to find a new area. We suggested rebuilding the trails at Tellico to meet current standards of engineering etc., Marisue's response was they will not even consider reopening Tellico. We proposed adding full size trails to the Roy A. Taylor ATV area (the area is about 40,000 acres), they replied that they are in the process of closing that area.
We left the meeting with the proposal that we would submit a list of potential sites for a new or improved OHV areas, when they reject these we will continue on with the lawsuit.
The FS did exactly what I expected at the meeting and yes it probably was a waste of time, but we have now checked off one more step in the legal process.

that's all I got about the meeting on the 24th. I'm sick and tired of not being able to tell you guys more. I honestly think Southern has dropped the ball from day one. There's a hundered things they could tell you but they don't. Why? I have no clue. I guess they figure if they keep you guys in the dark long enough you'll just go along with whatever they say since you don't know any better. I never voiced such opinion because I wasn't going to be that guy who never had anything positive to say and took away from the fight. I've done everything I know to try and help but in the end I pissed the wrong folks off and now I'm on the outs. I'll continue to help on land use issues because they are important to us as a community. However, the fight for Tellico is over.

All right assholes here's the news but first a small tidbit.

This morning I got canned from SFWDA as the newsletter guy. It probably won't be long before I get kicked from the super secret SFWDA Board of Directors section on the Southern board so I'll share what I know.

We met with a mediator and the USFS (Marisue Hilliard and lawyer) at Charlotte, NC. The FS's initial offer was the same BS we heard before, drop the lawsuit and we will help you work with the state of NC and try to find a new area. We suggested rebuilding the trails at Tellico to meet current standards of engineering etc., Marisue's response was they will not even consider reopening Tellico. We proposed adding full size trails to the Roy A. Taylor ATV area (the area is about 40,000 acres), they replied that they are in the process of closing that area.
We left the meeting with the proposal that we would submit a list of potential sites for a new or improved OHV areas, when they reject these we will continue on with the lawsuit.
The FS did exactly what I expected at the meeting and yes it probably was a waste of time, but we have now checked off one more step in the legal process.

that's all I got about the meeting on the 24th. I'm sick and tired of not being able to tell you guys more. I honestly think Southern has dropped the ball from day one. There's a hundered things they could tell you but they don't. Why? I have no clue. I guess they figure if they keep you guys in the dark long enough you'll just go along with whatever they say since you don't know any better. I never voiced such opinion because I wasn't going to be that guy who never had anything positive to say and took away from the fight. I've done everything I know to try and help but in the end I pissed the wrong folks off and now I'm on the outs. I'll continue to help on land use issues because they are important to us as a community. However, the fight for Tellico is over.

Nothing like keeping your constituents in the dark to rally the base :rolleyes: The only thing SWFDA has done right is put on a case study of how not to right a closure. The highlight of me not going to Dixie Run this year was that they didn't get any of my money.

On another note I'd love to hear the pissing someone off and getting canned story. Knowing you I bet it is good.

On another note I'd love to hear the pissing someone off and getting canned story. Knowing you I bet it is good.

I wish it was. Unfortunately, it's not :( Pretty much Roger and I don't like each other. I volunteered because I wanted to help Southern, not him. No one else would so he was stuck with me. He said some things and I wrote some articles about it. Just like what you're seeing out of Southern now, no one would come out and say, "I don't like what you're putting in the newsletter". Instead it was behind the scenes meetings where decisions were being made. One of those meetings was "Nick's out, this other dude is in." At least this is what I gather from it. He sent me the email this morning saying I had to turn over all materials to him as soon as the summer edition comes out.

LAME. But, sounds par for the course with those guys. Color me not surprised.

"Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?"
:flipoff2:

Damn it's hard to be positive right about now.........:shaking:

"Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?"
:flipoff2:

Damn it's hard to be positive right about now.........:shaking:

Hell I did or at least I thought I did. I actually thought I was doing good. I'm not an english major so maybe the punctuation wasn't there or I missed a semicolon but I thought the articles were decent. I also tried to put in as many pictures as I could for the slow folks :flipoff2:

McCracken- You are the main reason I donated a hundred bucks a few months ago. If the powers to be think they will get one more thin dime out of me while keeping me in the dark they are sadly mistaken.

If Southern doesn't step up with the PR and keep people informed they will wither up and blow away!!!

McCracken- You are the main reason I donated a hundred bucks a few months ago. If the powers to be think they will get of more thin dime out of me while keeping me in the dark they are sadly mistaken.

If Southern doesn't step up with the PR and keep people informed they will wither up and blow away!!!

Well, I appreciate it. That actually makes me feel pretty good. We (as in the people on here) gave a pretty good effort I thought. Our rally really opened eyes. We had discussions that were needed that maybe others didn't want to hear and we gave to a cause we thought was worth fighting for. I just hoped this whole ordeal hasn't put people off of land use. It's still needed and there's a lot of places that need help too.

McCracken,
I know what you were trying to do at Southern and I think if you could have done it,Southern would've been better off. The SFWDA is so outdated and the reason they dont tell people whats going on, is because they know people will quit giving money.

They're a joke for an organization and I'm ready to see them float belly up like Tellico.I will never support them!

I have respect for you Nick and at at least now your name wont be tarnished like thiers. Be glad you got forced out!

McCracken,
I know what you were trying to do at Southern and I think if you could have done it,Southern would've been better off. The SFWDA is so outdated and the reason they dont tell people whats going on, is because they know people will quit giving money.

They're a joke for an organization and I'm ready to see them float belly up like Tellico.I will never support them!

I have respect for you Nick and at at least now your name wont be tarnished like thiers. Be glad you got forced out!

the only way that organization will thrive in the future is to get people like us in there. it'll take a lot of folks shaking things up before any real change (shudder) will happen. It's like I said in my last article. The old folks are going to die out one day and who will be left? Us that's who. Too bad they don't want any new people in the organization. They just want to recycle what they have over and over again.

How is thier membership these days as far as numbers? Has it declined in recent years? I would expect it to hit rock bottom, if everyone who supports them would start asking questions, instead of writing a check for nothing.

and...I hate how they charge a club to be added to thier websites list of clubs and then uses that clubs efforts as thier own, when they do nothing.Bullshit!

Its funny how I have wheeled at all of the major areas and I have never met any of the officials for the SFWDA except you and you get canned. I guess that was too much visibilty for them, gotta stay elusive and mysterious!

How is thier membership these days as far as numbers? Has it declined in recent years? I would expect it to hit rock bottom, if everyone who supports them would start asking questions, instead of writing a check for nothing.

and...I hate how they charge a club to be added to thier websites list of clubs and then uses that clubs efforts as thier own, when they do nothing.Bullshit!

I think in their hay day they claimed they had 1500 members strong. Now, the last I heard was 325 plus or minus a few. It's funny you mention clubs because they have clubs on their website and in the Trail Mix that haven't paid their dues in a long time. In fact if I dug really hard I bet I could find the exact number of actual paying clubs. Point is the membership is on the decline. I tried, along with a few others, to promote the membership benefits and they actually got a few businesses on board. Their plan is to get more parks/businesses to join in to give Southern members a discount. I don't know the current status but it was in the works at some point.

Its funny how I have wheeled at all of the major areas and I have never met any of the officials for the SFWDA except you and you get canned. I guess that was too much visibilty for them, gotta stay elusive and mysterious!

guilty by association. thanks a lot Gary :flipoff2:

Its your own fault, I cant feel sorry for you! haha

but seriously, they really aren't that visible in the community, unless you go to one of thier events, otherwise they're non existent.

I think the south could benefit greatly from an organization like southern but it would have to be structured totally different, with people who are like minded and really care.

HELL, Ive never seen the big dogs of southern on here and this website is a pretty big deal in the offroading world, I couldnt imagine being into offroading of any type and not contributing here. especially if your the pres or VP of an organization like SFWDA. I would at least get on here and defend the organization I was involved with.

Its your own fault, I cant feel sorry for you! haha

but seriously, they really aren't that visible in the community, unless you go to one of thier events, otherwise they're non existent.

I think the south could benefit greatly from an organization like southern but it would have to be structured totally different, with people who are like minded and really care.

HELL, Ive never seen the big dogs of southern on here and this website is a pretty big deal in the offroading world, I couldnt imagine being into offroading of any type and not contributing here. especially if your the pres or VP of an organization like SFWDA. I would at least get on here and defend the organization I was involved with.

HAve you ever considered starting such an organization?

YES! The Southern Offroad Coalition...but its not an easy thing to do and its hardwork if its going to be worth anything and not end up with something like we already have.

First things first, I make myself laugh

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=922011

Its your own fault, I cant feel sorry for you! haha

but seriously, they really aren't that visible in the community, unless you go to one of thier events, otherwise they're non existent.

I think the south could benefit greatly from an organization like southern but it would have to be structured totally different, with people who are like minded and really care.

HELL, Ive never seen the big dogs of southern on here and this website is a pretty big deal in the offroading world, I couldnt imagine being into offroading of any type and not contributing here. especially if your the pres or VP of an organization like SFWDA. I would at least get on here and defend the organization I was involved with.

That's like asking your grandma to get on here and post up. They're old school and that's how they operate. This is how they will continue to operate until someone votes in someone new.

I'll tell you how you get it done and it will work. When they have elections, get the biggest group of members you can and show up. 20-30 ought to do it. When they ask for nominations tell them who you want. At that point have everyone in your group to raise their hands. You win.

I'm not being a smartass either. No one shows to these meetings. No one. On any given day you can have your nominee in office. Have the meeting in NC and you'll have one member be president. Have it TN the next day and you'll have another. It's not like the election of the POTUS. Nobody knows who's out there. They literally find out the day of the elections. It's all based on who shows up and nominates their buddy. If you planned it right, you could sweep the entire leadership out the door in an hour tops.

So with that I'll say if anyone wants to go that route next year. Give me a call because I'm down. You want to make a difference in how Southern will be run. Let's get organized for 1 day.

However, there is a downside to all of this. You may lose all connections, you might lose people who have helped for years, you might be left holding the check. Basically, you hit the reset button and see what happens. Even with that I'd be willing to give it a go.

First things first, I make myself laugh

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=922011

wow :laughing:

We spoke about that before and I wonder how that would turn out? Im down with that but I really dont want to become a member, eventhough, becoming a member to overturn the whole mess would be worth it. Im in

However, there is a downside to all of this. You may lose all connections, you might lose people who have helped for years, you might be left holding the check. Basically, you hit the reset button and see what happens. Even with that I'd be willing to give it a go.

i am not gonna say it cannot get any worse but it cannot get any worse as far as helping the trails

If I were the SFWDA and its defenders, I think I would quit bringing up Tellico, because Tellico was thier one main focus, the one area that they have countless man hours in, and it is a gigantic failure.

Its really unfortunate that it takes kicking a BOD/ joiurnalist guy out of the loop to find anything out. They want/ expect us to keep donating money blindly. I have written the letters and donated money ($400 to be exact) over the past two years, just like many others have, but the outcome is aways the same (Rich mountain/ Amicalola falls). Just keep us informed. That is all I ask.

McCracken. My hat is off to you. Thanks for speaking out/ whatever you did to piss them off enough to kick you off the "team". I've got some beers for you if we are ever sitting around a campfire at one of the wonderful OHV parks we have in the southeast.

Its really unfortunate that it takes kicking a BOD/ joiurnalist guy out of the loop to find anything out. They want/ expect us to keep donating money blindly. I have written the letters and donated money ($400 to be exact) over the past two years, just like many others have, but the outcome is aways the same (Rich mountain/ Amicalola falls). Just keep us informed. That is all I ask.

McCracken. My hat is off to you. Thanks for speaking out/ whatever you did to piss them off enough to kick you off the "team". I've got some beers for you if we are ever sitting around a campfire at one of the wonderful OHV parks we have in the southeast.

I'd hate to sit back and count up the money I've thrown down just for Tellico. If you counted the events along with the donations I'm probably close to the $1K mark :eek: but IMO it was for a good cause... at the time.

I appreciate the offer and I'll definitely take you up on it :beer:

it baffles me that I have donated money blindly to this organization for so long and I kept assuming they were helping.

I was up there for the last tellico cleanup and its true that is the only real evidence I ever saw of them doing anything but dixierun, but the fact is, the clubs were the ones doing the work and planning the cleanup.

Writing this got me thinking of the places that we have lost and its crazy that more wasnt heard about the other areas when they closed, only tellico...if they keep saying that "if tellico goes, its the doorway to others" why not concentrate on the others as well...

Rich Mountain
Amicalola Falls
Cullowhee
Tellico...

all gone as we used to know them.

HELL, Ive never seen the big dogs of southern on here and this website is a pretty big deal in the offroading world, I couldnt imagine being into offroading of any type and not contributing here. especially if your the pres or VP of an organization like SFWDA. I would at least get on here and defend the organization I was involved with.

I would not. I feel I have to address this b/c Pirate has the reputation as being full of ass hats and jerks. As you can see I have very few posts. There is a reason for that. If the people on here were a little more friendly you might see other clubs that are getting bashed here come defend them. Until the Tellico closure came up I think I had maybe 4 or 5 posts on here I would search if I needed anything. Come to think of it I don't think I ever really used much form here at all. I'm sure I'll get flamed but I really don't care. You know I'm right.

I would not. I feel I have to address this b/c Pirate has the reputation as being full of ass hats and jerks. As you can see I have very few posts. There is a reason for that. If the people on here were a little more friendly you might see other clubs that are getting bashed here come defend them. Until the Tellico closure came up I think I had maybe 4 or 5 posts on here I would search if I needed anything. Come to think of it I don't think I ever really used much form here at all. I'm sure I'll get flamed but I really don't care. You know I'm right.


That explains a lot.

There's certainly no problem using the Pirate 4x4 forum to get the word out about an event or fundraiser souhern is having such as adopt a trout,etc....

Pirate 4x4 if utilized could be an awesome tool for the SFWDA.

I would not. I feel I have to address this b/c Pirate has the reputation as being full of ass hats and jerks. As you can see I have very few posts. There is a reason for that. If the people on here were a little more friendly you might see other clubs that are getting bashed here come defend them. Until the Tellico closure came up I think I had maybe 4 or 5 posts on here I would search if I needed anything. Come to think of it I don't think I ever really used much form here at all. I'm sure I'll get flamed but I really don't care. You know I'm right.

Yeah, that is an issue. Many many times I've seen where they say they don't want to deal with pirate because of the asshole factor. Problem is this is the largest, most productive group of wheelers on the internet, IMO. There are thousands upon thousands of users and from all walks of life. They're spread all over the southeast and the rest of the 50 states but they're all considered assholes by anyone outside the group and some inside the group. This is a difficult hurdle to overcome when you're pushing a family friendly environment within your organization.

To me I've gotten used to the back and forth between users and learned to grow my thick skin accordingly. However, being a noob doesn't help when you don't know how to take people. A bunch of old men looking to get on the that thar interweb and talk will be shocked. I can't say I don't blame them, in a way, but at the same time I think they should make an appearance. There are plenty of good people on here but you sometimes have to weed through the process to find them.

For example, JC is a great guy. He's very active in Southern and shows up on here from time to time to tell us what he can. I think if he had his druthers he wouldn't be here much at all but he sees the importance of spreading the information he can. This is one reason I wanted to get involved. I felt as if I had something to offer. I could help the association by bridging the gap so that we could find more members who might not know what SFWDA is about. Unfortunately, this cannot happen until we get rid of the current president and find someone more open-minded who's ready to try new things. Like I said before, even Gunnar Byrd the VP said this is the future. He knows he won't get on but he sees the importance.

edit: Gary's right. pirate is just about the best tool out there for an organization trying to help the 4-wheel drive community.

This is a difficult hurdle to overcome when you're pushing a family friendly environment within your organization.

Thats because it's not a family friendly enviroment anymore.Now a days it's all about goin out and raisin hell and then tiein one on back at camp.We talked about this before on NC in the resturant/kids thread.When I 1st started it was alot better,people watched their mouths,and minded their manners.Now if you dont like it tough shit deal with it.

Thats because it's not a family friendly enviroment anymore.Now a days it's all about goin out and raisin hell and then tiein one on back at camp.We talked about this before on NC in the resturant/kids thread.When I 1st started it was alot better,people watched their mouths,and minded their manners.Now if you dont like it tough shit deal with it.

This is the real problem with offroading today. There used to be a day where park rangers laughed at the antics, people picked up their trash and showed some respect for others.

I'm about to be thrown to the dogs for this one but to hell with it. From my experience the overall picture the public sees of "4 wheelers" is a bunch of drunk, outlaw, unruly, trash slinging, wildlife destroying idiots. They have NO experience of what wheeling is about so they form their opinion on what they see. We have been losing dirt to play on for years and it's getting more frequent that another area dies. The only solution will never happen because people are so damn stupid. The wheeling community as a whole will never be able to band together and fight the politics and the eco-pussies. It pretty much seems to me like we attempt to fight for land and we fail every time. We should be gaining places to ride not losing them. I really do want to know what will happen when all of our wheeling land is gone.

I'm about to be thrown to the dogs for this one but to hell with it. From my experience the overall picture the public sees of "4 wheelers" is a bunch of drunk, outlaw, unruly, trash slinging, wildlife destroying idiots. They have NO experience of what wheeling is about so they form their opinion on what they see. We have been losing dirt to play on for years and it's getting more frequent that another area dies. The only solution will never happen because people are so damn stupid. The wheeling community as a whole will never be able to band together and fight the politics and the eco-pussies. It pretty much seems to me like we attempt to fight for land and we fail every time. We should be gaining places to ride not losing them. I really do want to know what will happen when all of our wheeling land is gone.

100% agree... i have said it many times.

You'd be better off starting a corporation to buy/long term lease private property. Start a private park.

You'd be better off starting a corporation to buy/long term lease private property. Start a private park.

If this sport/hobby has any future, that's where it will be. Public wheeling land is a dying thing, like it or not.

If this sport/hobby has any future, that's where it will be. Public wheeling land is a dying thing, like it or not.

Unfortunately the argument they used to close Tellico could be used against any and all land in the US where there are streams nearby.

Unfortunately the argument they used to close Tellico could be used against any and all land in the US where there are streams nearby.

All need to read this, then read this again...and then you guessed it, read this again. Don't think for a second that other public, and then private land won't be in the cross hairs for closure.

I'm about to be thrown to the dogs for this one but to hell with it. From my experience the overall picture the public sees of "4 wheelers" is a bunch of drunk, outlaw, unruly, trash slinging, wildlife destroying idiots. They have NO experience of what wheeling is about so they form their opinion on what they see. We have been losing dirt to play on for years and it's getting more frequent that another area dies. The only solution will never happen because people are so damn stupid. The wheeling community as a whole will never be able to band together and fight the politics and the eco-pussies. It pretty much seems to me like we attempt to fight for land and we fail every time. We should be gaining places to ride not losing them. I really do want to know what will happen when all of our wheeling land is gone.

Correct, this is because all anybody hears about riding is "man i was giving it hell up this huge hill climb, i was drunk off my rocker by the way, and i broke this that and the other. but you know what, its all good because after i went and drunk a 16 pack and left all the cans on the trail". More and more every year it seems that this "wheeling hobby that drinks" becomes a "drinking hobby that wheels". i mean sad to say it but its not just once in a while this happens, its very frequent. Even in private parks. People leaving trash, not cleaning up, and tearing up land is what will lead to private park closings, not so much the streams and stuff.

All need to read this, then read this again...and then you guessed it, read this again. Don't think for a second that other public, and then private land won't be in the cross hairs for closure.

Totally agree! Closing Tellico was so to speak "testing the waters", no pun intended. If they can successfully close down the best wheelin land in the southeast, then LOOK OUT! All other government wheelin lands are next on the agenda. I tell people all the time that this is dying sport. Some of my best memories growing up was going out wheeling with my family, and we rode some of the best trails around. But, year by year, I have seen these trails get slowly get closed one right after the other. I am very diappointed cause now I know that my kids won't get to enjoy the same things as I did.