I have an 88.5 zuk with coils all the way around (shafer's kit ).
150 springs.
lockers front and back . 4.16 t/case and 5.38 diff gears.
lots or other mods. My question is why does the zuk seem so unstable on the road. I hope the springs are just to lite.
any help would be greatfully app. thanks

What shocks are you running? Adjustable?

Coils will require a higer rate shock than leafs since there is little to no dampning in the springs.

The 150's may be light up front.

What 'instability' are you experiencing? Body roll, nose dive, turn under effect???

What tires. I know when I switched back to bias my handling went back to sh!t. With the TSL radials, my coils handled like a car, but the TSL bias wonder all over the place....

Originally posted by METOR
I have an 88.5 zuk with coils all the way around (shafer's kit ).
150 springs.
lockers front and back . 4.16 t/case and 5.38 diff gears.
lots or other mods. My question is why does the zuk seem so unstable on the road. I hope the springs are just to lite.
any help would be greatfully app. thanks

From your web site it looks as though you went from a stock Samurai to a lifted coiled Samurai. That kit is great but it's not as tight as a stocker. My buddy'e Samurai has the kit and you just got to get used to it thats all. keep driving it and you'll be fine.


BTW Are you in the service(I see a sticker on your windshield)? I'm at North Island:D

In addition to stiffer shocks, adding a sway bar in the front will make a big difference too. You'd want to make up some quick disconnects for it though.

Would be a shame to have a flexy suspension like that and end up taking all the flex out with a permanently mounted sway bar.

r@m

:eek:

Z-Link! (http://members.cox.net/metor98/id41.htm)

Man, how much lift do you have there?
That drag link isn't going to effect your stability issue, but I bet you got some Killer bump-steer. :(

interesting design......had to link the pic.....

The ultra-mega-super-duper-delux z-bar? :confused:
http://members.cox.net/metor98/0e06cd10.jpg

Originally posted by 0ILBURNER
:eek:



I´d have to agree with Oily on that one...:eek: However, not because of bumpsteer, but because of the radical design of that Z-link, that´s not at all necessary. Allow me to explain.....

When you´re running a panhard on a coily, what´s important for minimizing bumpsteer is that the drag link be parallel to the panhard. In this way, when the panhard swings thru its arc under flex, the lateral shifting of the axle is accompanied by a corresponding movement of the drag link, thereby not transmitting any violent motion to the steering wheel.

Now, this does not mean that you can run the panhard / drag link setup at wildly steep angles relative to the tie rod, as big angles will translate into big lateral shifting of the entire axle housing relative to the chassis. This can be most disconserting going over a rise at high speed when the entire axle is unloade of the chassis´ weight. When is comes back down, the axle shifts sideways abruptly. What a ride!!!:p :eek:

Metor, based on the above pic, if it were me, I´d do three things on your rig...

1) I´d dump that z-link in favor of a straight drag link, possibly bent at each end only as necessary to eliminate binding of the tie rod ends.

2) I´d find a way to minimize the angle of both the drag link and panhard realative to the axle, keeping in mind that these two links must be parallel to one another.

3) I´d move those front springs further outboard. This will dramatically improve the stability of the rig......

HTH

Man, that is one crazy z-link!!!!!! :eek: I'll bet you my zuk that if you switch to an upgraded steering system you will eliminate all of that unstability. Also, what shocks are you running? That makes a difference too!

Here are some choices:
RRO (http://www.rocky-road.com/ottsteer.html)
Trail Tough (http://www.trailtough.com/steering_components.htm)
Petroworks (http://www.petroworks.com/miscsuspension.htm#Higher Heights Z-bar Eliminator Kit)
Spidertrax (http://www.spidertrax.com/suspension_cos.htm)
Breeze (http://www.northcoastoffroad.com/samurai/steering_components.htm)
Sky Manufacturing (http://www.sky-manufacturing.com/steering.htm)

That should be enough to find one that you like

Originally posted by NC Zuk
I'll bet you my zuk that if you switch to an upgraded steering system you will eliminate all of that unstability.

I´d take that bet!!!:flipoff2: :D

IMO, the main problem is that his front springs are too close together...... :p

not knocking the kit seems to be alot of people happy with it but what do you actually get for all that money? looks like a bootie fab job...IMHO. and i'm not talking about the draglink...

Originally posted by Pook
not knocking the kit seems to be alot of people happy with it but what do you actually get for all that money? looks like a bootie fab job...IMHO. and i'm not talking about the draglink...

I thought the same thing... Although the fab quality of the individual parts doesn´t seem too bad, there are IMO some glaring design errors which need to be addressed.......

Case in point: The front axle connection bushings are too close together in the vertical plane...

I second the motion of moving the front springs out. that way you probably can retain those coils but they'd have less leverage acting on them. should help out a lot..pretty easy to make some perches.

Opinions are great, but just remember who designed this kit and what he has accomplished. I don't think there is a single one of us that can match it. :D My kit will be on by the end of the month (if Uncle Sam cooperates!) and I'll be able to give some feedback based on my own Zuk. I guess I'll just have to wait and see. ;)

I would say if everyone goes back to the pic and looks real hard you'll see there are no front shocks... Hmmmm, ya thats the ticket :D might help to have something up there???

I've been running Mike's kit now for over a year. I run Rancho 9000's and on the road I set them at 5, and run 33" Boggers and it works great. If you move the coils outboard like other's suggested you will lose some articulation and you will mess up the kits design. Mike put alot of work into the kit, and it works great as is. Going from stock to coils is a major change, so it will take awhile to get used to. I do however agree with what everyone is saying about the drag link, it definately needs fixed!!

Originally posted by NC Zuk
Opinions are great, but just remember who designed this kit and what he has accomplished. I don't think there is a single one of us that can match it. :D My kit will be on by the end of the month (if Uncle Sam cooperates!) and I'll be able to give some feedback based on my own Zuk. I guess I'll just have to wait and see. ;)


Opinions are what it´s all about when it comes to design projects. There are many, many ways to achieve determined goals, each with positive and negative aspects. It depends mostly on what the end user wants and is willing to trade off, both technically and financially.

I don´t know who designed the kit, but that knowledge wouldn´t prevent me from saying that there are glaring machine design errors in the package. I´ve been designing industrial production machinery for 20 plus years, so I can back up what I´m saying.

Not to diminish what the designer has accomplished, but yes, I´m confident that I could, if pressed, match it...:flipoff2: :D

EDIT: As far as Rockrat´s comments on the shocks, I guess i just "ass"umed that the posted pic was taken in-progress and that the finished rig now has shocks.....;)

Originally posted by NC Zuk
Opinions are great, but just remember who designed this kit and what he has accomplished. I don't think there is a single one of us that can match it. :D My kit will be on by the end of the month (if Uncle Sam cooperates!) and I'll be able to give some feedback based on my own Zuk. I guess I'll just have to wait and see. ;)

Spoken like someone that has bought. Just becasue you have the kit coming doesn't mean it is the best. Sorry if this sounds harsh, just get tired of this attitiude after a while. Maybe you aren't thinking that way; that is the way it appeared in your post.

Doesn't matter who made the kit, it is still open to constructive analysis.

Mike may have valid reasons for making the choices he made in the design of the kit, but that doesn't mean it is the end all be all of suspensions.

There is no such thing as a perfect suspension. Case in point, the coil spring location being discussed. Inboard like that is great for articulation, not the best for on highway maneuvres. I think it would be prudent to sell the kit with a sway bar kit of some sort (optional?) to protect the manufacturer from liability. Due diligence and all that rot..

$0.02

r@m

Originally posted by Pook
I second the motion of moving the front springs out. that way you probably can retain those coils but they'd have less leverage acting on them. should help out a lot..pretty easy to make some perches.

You can't easily move the front springs out board. The Radius arms/coil mounts/and panhard bar are all tied into each other. If you want to outboard the springs, you might as well make a custom jobber............

I just bought the stage 2 over the top fron Rocky Road. and 2) 175 lb springs for the front. as I am not light myself. Iam still kicking around the question of moving the coils outboard. I have a mig welder but not a cutting tourch.

Are you kidding? Your running "inboarded" coils, no sway bar, and NO SHOCKS, and you're wondering why it's all over the place?

Some peoples kids... :shaking:

If it were me, I'd add a sway bar (disconnectable for trail use) and a good set of rancho 9000s or doetsch tech shocks, and see where that put me. If you're still not happy, it's time to put the springs out where they belong.

The pic that you see is when I was still building my zook

Originally posted by Bill4rest


You can't easily move the front springs out board. The Radius arms/coil mounts/and panhard bar are all tied into each other. If you want to outboard the springs, you might as well make a custom jobber............

I meant that if you have the skills to weld it all up I'm sure you could easily move the springs outboard a little plate a few gussets and away you go.

IMHO... I think the overall kit is a good idea just the fabbing looks like what you'd build just using a chop saw and a welder...not a production built kit. main example is the rear brace and upper mount...ever hear of laser cutting,shears and presses...

it works and gets the job done but not what I'd expect ordering a kit...from a professional.

just my opinion so :flipoff2: no offence to the people who buy this stuff...

Originally posted by Pook
IMHO... I think the overall kit is a good idea just the fabbing looks like what you'd build just using a chop saw and a welder...not a production built kit. main example is the rear brace and upper mount...ever hear of laser cutting,shears and presses...

it works and gets the job done but not what I'd expect ordering a kit...from a professional.

just my opinion so :flipoff2: no offence to the people who buy this stuff...


Well I guess all Mike has to do is slap another $1000 on the price like the Jeep bubba's do, maybe then you can have a "cleaner" looking kit:flipoff2:

not really ever here of designing stuff and getting some else to cut the parts out....I get alot of laser cutting done, high definition plasma cutting,shearing and forming...all very reasonable and you don't put any of your own labour into it...build a few jigs to weld it all up...he'd probably save money.

Originally posted by Bill4est
Well I guess all Mike has to do is slap another $1000 on the price like the Jeep bubba's do, maybe then you can have a "cleaner" looking kit
AMEN BRUTHA!!!!AMEN BRUTHA!!!!

I'll comment on the original question:

Yup that drag link looks to be causing a bunch

take a look at the kingpin angle, unless I'm mistaken hes got nearly no castor angle which will make the thing wander like nuts. It's hard to see but look at the pinion angle and compare.

Ken

Originally posted by NC Zuk

AMEN BRUTHA!!!!AMEN BRUTHA!!!!

if yours guys are happy paying and waiting for it...:) all the power to you

:beer:

I am installing one of his toyota axle kits. The front springs are out-boarded because of the bigger diff. Everything else was built to compensate for the outboarding. A longer panhard bar and the links were spread out so the geometry should be correct. He said you loose a little flex out boarding but the heavier axles help make up the for that.

Originally posted by samiguy
I am installing one of his toyota axle kits. The front springs are out-boarded because of the bigger diff. Everything else was built to compensate for the outboarding. A longer panhard bar and the links were spread out so the geometry should be correct. He said you loose a little flex out boarding but the heavier axles help make up the for that.

Not to mention the wider axle as well. I figure if the coils are not moved too much the flex would be the same.

I'm not sure what brackets you looked at that didn't meet your "professional, clean cut appearance" on Mike's kit?!? One of Mike's early problems with meeting deadlines and getting the kits shipped on time (or even remotely on time) was that he was having severe problems with the machine shop that was professionally cutting his brackets. All of my brackets were machine cut and the edges smoothed and they looked top quality to me.

Like others have said, his kit is good and I am very happy with it, but improvements can always be made. IE Mike is changing the rear Y-link mount on the axle. Also, a quick-disconnect sway bar would be cool too.

This is why I like this board. You learn about kits, home-made stuff, opinions, ideas, etc, etc. No one should take this stuff personally, its how we all learn and improve on existing and new ideas!!

Originally posted by sh996
This is why I like this board. You learn about kits, home-made stuff, opinions, ideas, etc, etc. No one should take this stuff personally, its how we all learn and improve on existing and new ideas!! [/B]


Yep me too..... :beer:

The main thing i don't like is the look of the rear upper diff mount...but like i said thats my opinion...I've got something similar right now on my buggy but its temporary while i set up all the links in there permanent positions. Nothing against him personally or anybody else...

Originally posted by sh996
Like others have said, his kit is good and I am very happy with it, but improvements can always be made. IE Mike is changing the rear Y-link mount on the axle. Also, a quick-disconnect sway bar would be cool too.


And plain and simple........The kit works, That's the only thing I care about. I remember you shooting up #1 on the 2nd day of the event......tires planted....little to no anti sqwat; I was sold on Mike's kit after that runhttp://www.rx7club.com/forum/images/smilies/biggthumpup.gif

Ahhhh, the memories from NWRCA....too bad they haven't been able to get things together enough to have some events this year. I was thrilled with the way the truck performed that whole weekend, just wish I hadn't rushed so much on the second day.





ps I like your PITA 2002 award Bill....

It dosent mattes who's kit or idea there is always room to inprove on it.

Originally posted by sh996
Ahhhh, the memories from NWRCA....too bad they haven't been able to get things together enough to have some events this year. I was thrilled with the way the truck performed that whole weekend, just wish I hadn't rushed so much on the second day.





ps I like your PITA 2002 award Bill....



Ah I know.....live and learn though;)

What is the degree of the front pinion suspost to be at.

King pin angle should be 9 degrees not sure what that actualy sets your pinion too.