OK guy I need some help. I opened a can of worms in my speech and debate class that "We aren't destroying the environment and society anymore than any other sport" and that "People should be open minded about our sport" anybody know where I can find documented information in print that this is the case.

Thanks a Million
John

P.S. If I can't find the info to back this up I'll hafta admit I'm wrong and the ECO-NAZI's will win

chit chat, but here are a few links

now go do some homework :flipoff2:

http://www.sharetrails.org/scorecard.htm

http://www.crowley-offroad.com/

http://www.stu-offroad.com/misc/environment.htm

Your first mistake was to make a blanket statement that 4wheeling does not damage the environment more than any other sport. Pretty hard to defend against sports like ping-pong cow tipping. Next problem was making an assumption that people are close minded about wheeling. If they weren't before, you just encouraged them to be close minded now.

I guess if you need some examples of sports damaging the environment more than wheeling, I would point to golf, baseball, soccer and football for the outrageous amount of water used to keep the grass green, autoracing of all forms for the amount of hydrocarbons expelled into the atmosphere, and also bowling because of all the second hand cigarette smoke wafting out the door.

Click on the top link in my signature, there is more info in this and past months issues than you will ever need.:D

OK, the Eco Nazis aren't about facts, We all know that. Facts will not defeat them, no matter how well presented. The fact is that they, with help from the liberal press manipulate the political and popular mindset through irrational and generally untrue emotional appeals. As a result of this, your well-meaning defense of wheeling will not succede in winning over many current eco-nazis.
Given this basis, it is necessary to approach the issue from a different perspective. There are, in my mind two options to this:

1) Explain the philosophy behind our sport, its virtues and its weaknesses. Beginning form the question "Why do we wheel" will bring the audience to a better understanding of our sport. For me,. it is simple, wheeling is one of the most natural things for a person to do. When we wheel, we have an experience with the NATURAL world that the eco-nazis speak of that is unavailable in our ordinary lives. In this experience, we develop a reverence for the rocks, trees, and mud which test our minds, instincts and courage. As a result of this, we come to know and appreciate the world better than any yuppie suburban sheep ever could. Does this experience change both the person and the world, yes. Does it damage it? no. Naturally, the resopnse will be "Hiking provides a similar experience with less "Damage". Bullshit. The AMC (Appilacian Mountain Club) builds huge loges with heat and shit on hiking trails, do you see that kind of development on most wheelin trails? Many over-used hiking trails such as the MT. Washington one are far more littered and torn up than the local wheelin trails in my area. Wheeling is also a social sport, which brings together a diverse groups of people, to share a common chalenge, creating comradere SP? that is found in few other sports. I have met some of my best friends on the trails. I have met a few assholes too, but that is equally valuable. Wheeling with a person allows you to see who they really are, good or bad. The experience of truth is rapidly vanishing in modern life, and is certaily one of the most valuable in human experience. Wheeling is experience WITH the world, which reaffirms that we are in fact natural ourselves, not seporate in our serile, bland suburban hell.

2) Take the fawkers wheelin. IF they will go with an open mind, they will see for themselves. IF they are closed-minded, then there is nothing you can do.

Thats just how i see it , but i'm a dumb fawkin redneck from NH, so what do i know.
-Ryan

Originally posted by 82FB
I would point to golf, baseball, soccer and football for the outrageous amount of water used to keep the grass green, autoracing of all forms for the amount of hydrocarbons expelled into the atmosphere,

Yes to Golf, etc but not because of the water used. Not a big deal to someone in Kansas City with two major rivers colliding right there, so you'd lose that argument. Instead, talk about the environmental distruction that takes place when you CONSTRUCT a golf course, baseball field, etc.

Don't point to the hydrocarbons of autoracing either since it's too similar to 4-wheeling.

TEX

Someone a while back (YellowSub?) actually laid out the environmental impact of a rig, mountain bike, and a hiker in terms of average weight and contact pressure. Mathematically proved that a rig has less of a "footprint" than a hiker or a mountain bike. Lots of numbers and stuff, so it might be over the heads of your greenies.

Here is some of my take on this. The Eco's are more about banning things and stopping people from doing things than they are about saving and preserving. The Eco's goals of stopping us from wheeling, biking, and even horseback riding stem purely from Hate and stereotyping and has little to do with there message of "We are out to save the world". If in fact they were as concerned about saving the world as they claim why don't they set the example. Do they drive the most fuel efficient car they can, do they shop with resueable canvas shopping bags, do they take full advantage of solar power, do they commute on public transportation or even a motorcycle to save on fuel consumption. No. They buy a 2000 square foot home in the bay area, demolish it, send it to a LANDFILL, and then construct a 4500 squate foot home out of WOOD that requires much heating and cooling for the 2 of them. What is the biggest polluter......power generation. So I wonder when someone says they are out to save the world I ask what are they themselvs doing to save the world or are they only out to point the finger and stop others from doing something of whitch they now very little about. Eco's are nothing more than the sons and daughters of the old Biggets and Exclusionists from the country club days whos real goal is "I want to go here and I don't want to see you" and has nothing to do with saving the world. How much wood was cut and land was forever cleared for just one REI?

Originally posted by TEX


Yes to Golf, etc but not because of the water used. Not a big deal to someone in Kansas City with two major rivers colliding right there, so you'd lose that argument. Instead, talk about the environmental distruction that takes place when you CONSTRUCT a golf course, baseball field, etc.

Don't point to the hydrocarbons of autoracing either since it's too similar to 4-wheeling.

TEX

Water may not be a big deal in Kansas, but look at all of the precious water used out west to keep courses green. There is also a lot of chemicals used on those courses. But you are right, the amount of destruction that takes place to construct a course is the probably the biggest issue.

It was some time ago - I was watching a show about I can't remember what and they had an interview with Robert Redford.

He said "I love to get out and play golf and get back to nature."

I about fell out of my chair! That was the most ridiculous thing I had ever heard!

Originally posted by TEX


Yes to Golf, etc but not because of the water used.

TEX

I was of course speaking from my own little corner of the world. We have no rain to speak of from April through November each year. Things get kinda dry, reservoirs get really low, and forests start burning every summer.

Just tell them, "I will not debate with somebody as closed-minded as you." They can either sit their and admit they are closed minded (which they won't...'cuz they believe they believe in diversity which means only thinking the way they think because it is different than everybody elses way of thinking...but I digress), or they can prove they are "open minded" by seriously listening to your debate.

It doesn't hurt, as mentioned earlier, to consider their points of view on the negative effects of wheeling (because face it, there are negative effects), but this will also help you and give you leverage to point out the negative effects of their philosophies, which will expose their hypocracies (and by them not knowing what the disadvantages of their own philosophies/beliefs are, they are in turn admitting their own arrogance and self-righteousness).
In this manner, you should demonstrate and conduct a level-headed and logical debate, while exposing them for the fools they are (rather, their own side of the debate will do that...)

More golf courses are being built and are forever changing pristine plots of open land.

not only do they use an enourmous amount of water to maintain they are hogging up alot of land that could have been better off with a few 4x4 trails meandering through.
Intsead acres of trees are uprooted and non native grasses are planted planted.

have a look through some stuff at www.bb4wa.com

I personally feel that the greenies take on easy battles and really don't take on the issues that cause big damage. The biggest problem in any ecosystem is non-native species, which are imported for all kinds of reasons. You don't see them protesting at ports to turn back ships carrying possible contaminates because it is a tough public fight, but wheeling is an easy battle because the some in the general public see wheelers and beer drinking redneck in big trucks running over Bambi. But if you look at the big picture all the "bad" wheelers (i.e. the one who do cause destruction) put together will never even come close to causing the environmental damage of the zebra mussel, which is destroying the great lakes.

Or how often have they had to kill all the plants in and around a pond, then kill all the fish in the pond because of wheeling, like they recently did in Maryland. When the greenies start protesting in front of sushi restaurants and yacht clubs then they can claim they are protecting the environment.