I was up this past weekend, as were many others, and I couldn't help but notice that the log blockade has been gone around at the top and completely knocked down at the bottom. And it's not like only one or two rigs have gone around at the top, it is obviously the preferred route.

I mean WTF is wrong with people when there is a clear stack of logs blocking the trail and a sign showing the new direction and they still plow on through? :mad3:

On my way out Saturday afternoon there was even a pretty much stock old Toyota FJ40 parked on the wrong side of the log dam. :shaking:

I was there and it did not seem well marked at all going from bottom up.. there were signs saying "fordyce trail" at the bottom but no direction indication and placed in kind of a neutral spot to the different ways to go so unless you have experience with fordyce you would possibly not know which way to go, and once up there to the top I can't imagine anybody trying to turn around for the upper blockade.. As far as the first few who blew through it well that would have been a different story..

BTW Fordyce was a awesome place to be this weekend with the rain!! And this is the first time I have been up since the Bypass to the mudhole.. A lot of new trail, Fordyce sure did give my little toyota a work out this weekend

Yeah, I understand your point, but if the logs were still in place it would be crystal clear.

I don't know why this is bothering me so much because this isn't the first time I have seen people go around a "gate" of some kind.

Even up on the trail I watched a member of a well known club driving well off the trail. :shaking:

Yea, the first few folks knew what they were doing for sure.. I have to admit though lately with all the poor decision making by whoever is in charge with "our" trails it is getting old.. It is no excuse but I think it might be getting to where people are just plane fed up with with BS.. Kinda on a different rant I guess... But your right, folks have no respect for anything anymore it seems

Noticed MANY driving around the weekend of Sept.25th-26th. I will admit that after having a rig roll going down to the crossing and thinking the engine was done, I was seriously dreading a dead tow through the re-route. In our case we got the engine cleared without incident, but I would guess the flow out that Sunday was 50% re-route, 50% old way.

it was easier to get through the new route than winch 2. it looks nasty but there are other parts of the trail to really work to get a dead rig out. Let's stay on the new trail.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=909319&highlight=

Keep in mind that the committee reroute was done at the request on the land owner. (PG&E) The reroute was not constructed to be an “easier” way out. It was constructed to avoid a deteriorating section of trail. It is imperative that the old section of trail not be used. I find it frustrating as hell having people remove an obvious blockade. I don’t know the exact reasons why it was done but I would guess it had to do with someone looking for the easiest possible way out without thinking of ANY possible consequences or the bigger picture. Like I said…just a guess.

I do have a question. Who has firsthand experience with towing a dead rig out through the new section. I would like to hear how it went. What parts were troublesome and if you had any recommendations on what could be improved.

Thank you
Jeff

I don't know why this is bothering me so much because this isn't the first time I have seen people go around a "gate" of some kind.

I hear you :mad3:

I'd bet somebody on here knows who did it. About time to step up and say something. The forest service will never maintain this place with anything but a gate on both ends but when some of the users step up and try to fix things and keep it open this is what happens. Not surprised.

I think it will take some time for everybody to get used to the "change."
Eventually the "new" trail will just become "the" trail.

The same things happened on the Rubicon in certain areas for a while until people got used to it, but now its not really an issue. Just keep rebuilding, signing, and educating, and eventually people will get it. And the sooner the barriers can be fixed the better, to show people that what they're doing is noticed and that they can't just do what they want...

Honestly a sign posted at both ends of the reroute might be helpful, something like......

This section of the trail has been moved to the east to prevent erosion and runoff problems as requested by the land owner. Please respect the closing of the old section and and use only the rerouted trail from this point forward. 10-5-2010

That and some big arrows pointing to the new path.

Yep, good sign for sure

I will agree that signage could be improved upon

With all the crap going on about the "paving" of the Rubicon, I find it Ironic that people are complaining about the difficulty of a reroute of the trail.

When was the last time anyone has heard of a new section of trail opening up?
Let alone challenging?

If folks keep this up, PG&E will imitate the FS or a County Officials & simply close access to the public.

With all the crap going on about the "paving" of the Rubicon, I find it Ironic that people are complaining about the difficulty of a reroute of the trail.

When was the last time anyone has heard of a new section of trail opening up?
Let alone challenging?

If folks keep this up, PG&E will imitate the FS or a County Officials & simply close access to the public.

My only concern with the difficulty is for the extraction of a broken rig with that particular exit being the most popular and centrally located. Otherwise I welcome the challenge and enjoyed the new section of trail.

Yeah, I get that, but....

What if you broke at Buck Island or the Sluice?

Should there be an "easy way out" for those locations?

People are very creative & work things out.
If the CC exit is hard, people will find a way to make it work...

Either by fixing it or dragging it out.

With all the crap going on about the "paving" of the Rubicon, I find it Ironic that people are complaining about the difficulty of a reroute of the trail.

When was the last time anyone has heard of a new section of trail opening up?
Let alone challenging?

If folks keep this up, PG&E will imitate the FS or a County Officials & simply close access to the public.

So true.

My only concern with the difficulty is for the extraction of a broken rig with that particular exit being the most popular and centrally located.

Just part of the challenge/risk of running a trail like this and it should be taken into consideration before running it, and while on the trail. Maybe its not so wise to beat your rig to death or go unprepared if its going to be a huge PITA to extract it. Oh wait, that might require common sense and personal accountability. Can't have that...

We definitely need a government bailout trail to help out those who get in over their heads. Bring in the asphalt and the bridges. Its better for the environment! Spare no expense! :laughing:

I do have a question. Who has firsthand experience with towing a dead rig out through the new section. I would like to hear how it went. What parts were troublesome and if you had any recommendations on what could be improved.

Thank you
Jeff

Anyone??

Jeff, I know we towed a few vehicles out that way during Sierra Trek, but IIRC, most were able to help in 2WD to some extent. I'll try to get some names and phone numbers for you for specific comments.

Randii

Jeff, I know we towed a few vehicles out that way during Sierra Trek, but IIRC, most were able to help in 2WD to some extent. I'll try to get some names and phone numbers for you for specific comments.

Randii

Thanks Randii

So true.



Just part of the challenge/risk of running a trail like this and it should be taken into consideration before running it, and while on the trail. Maybe its not so wise to beat your rig to death or go unprepared if its going to be a huge PITA to extract it. Oh wait, that might require common sense and personal accountability. Can't have that...

We definitely need a government bailout trail to help out those who get in over their heads. Bring in the asphalt and the bridges. Its better for the environment! Spare no expense! :laughing:


Erik,

I know you are smarter than this and not the elitist that this comment makes you appear to be and to some degree I am playing the devil's advocate. Bottom line is that shit happens on this trail or any other. Even the most prepared can have something bad enough go wrong, that they couldn't have possibly prepared for it. The reality is that tows and dead tows are common place on this particular trail. People either misjudge or have another issue with the water crossings or other parts of the trail, it happens.

My only concern with the difficulty is for the extraction of a broken rig with that particular exit being the most popular and centrally located. Otherwise I welcome the challenge and enjoyed the new section of trail.


Everyone keeps talking about it being easier to extract on the old trail.
Just imagine extracting a broke rig out either end of the trail if it got closed? We need to stay on the new trail, close the old trail, and stay off of it or risk loosing it all together.

Erik,

I know you are smarter than this and not the elitist that this comment makes you appear to be and to some degree I am playing the devil's advocate. Bottom line is that shit happens on this trail or any other. Even the most prepared can have something bad enough go wrong, that they couldn't have possibly prepared for it. The reality is that tows and dead tows are common place on this particular trail. People either misjudge or have another issue with the water crossings or other parts of the trail, it happens.

I don't think that section was ever meant to be easy to tow people out. It is just another route on the trail. It can be a shorter way in/out to the main trail. It still is. No trail is designed to make towing easy.

This (or these) reroute(s) didn't make any obstacle harder or keep any vehicles from being able to run the trail. All they do is keep the trail on the rocks and out of the mud, and make it a little longer and windier in the process. More rock crawling! Nobody is being excluded.

I find it VERY ironic and frustrating that people would complain that the trail might be getting a little bit longer and therefore a little bit harder. Especially considering everything that's going on with with the Rubicon. I really do think people need to take it into consideration. Its common sense.

(as for McKinstry on Rubicon- I don't view it as a bailout but as just another trail. Variety. It just happened to work as a bailout, if needed, but that wasn't its purpose)

Yes stuff happens, but one of the cool things about this community is that people are generally pretty willing to help each other out, even though it can be difficult. I don't think anybody is any more likely to be left out there because of these reroutes.

I don't think we should be building easy bailouts, which also become easy access for the under prepared and ill informed (think Bassi Falls). This is about the only hard trail in the TNF. There are other trails to run if this one is too hard. I don't think having ONE hard trail is elitist at all. It offers variety.

I think the only reason that it continues to be mentioned is because that particular section of trail is an entrance/ exit. It's not along the way unless you are coming from or going to Cisco Grove. If this was the historical route, I doubt there would be any mention either. Until the old route is permanently blocked and forgotten, I see two very likely causes for someone to bypass the way and use the old route.

1. Towing a broken rig out
2. To avoid a huge traffic jam from someone being towed out.

Just want to quote something that Jeff pointed out and expand on it a bit

Keep in mind that the committee reroute was done at the request on the land owner. (PG&E) The reroute was not constructed to be an “easier” way out. It was constructed to avoid a deteriorating section of trail. It is imperative that the old section of trail not be used.

The land owner came to us a few years ago with a request to move the route to more sustainable ground. The old route is all dirt, very steep/straight up the hill, was eroding badly. They could have just as easily closed the route and been done with it, but they have chosen to continue to allow us access.

The new route was constructed based on its sustainability as the number 1 priority, it just happens to be a little more difficult...in the end, it is what it is. The end goal of keeping the trsil open through all access points is the most important thing, now lets massage it into what we need it to be. If you see a corner that needs work, just let us know and we can work on it.

The old route is NOT an option and needs to be blocked asap and never used again.

The old route is NOT an option and needs to be blocked asap and never used again.


No one here is arguing that. So what has worked well in the past for blocking illegal bypasses? Everything that I've see has involved a fair amount of education to get people to do teh right thing unfortunately. Maybe beef up the block and provide more signage, perhaps with an explanation of why we need to stay on the "new" route. Eventually it will become the way.

No one here is arguing that. So what has worked well in the past for blocking illegal bypasses? Everything that I've see has involved a fair amount of education to get people to do teh right thing unfortunately. Maybe beef up the block and provide more signage, perhaps with an explanation of why we need to stay on the "new" route. Eventually it will become the way.


Number one is that we will be re-blocking the route this weekend.

Threads like this are a good start in getting the word out to users as to why the new route is there. Hopefully word of mouth....Signage will be coming but that usually does take time. We have some carsonites but have been trying to avoid using them as much as possible because it does put off the perception that things are being "closed".

Certainly open to other ideas

I don't think that section was ever meant to be easy to tow people out. It is just another route on the trail. It can be a shorter way in/out to the main trail. It still is. No trail is designed to make towing easy.





I agree 100%
It was a convenient escape route, but it was never by design.






now lets massage it into what we need it to be. If you see a corner that needs work, just let us know and we can work on it.
The old route is NOT an option and needs to be blocked asap and never used again.



It is a bit ruff right now but with use it will smooth out. I find the new Cisco to Eagle Lakes Rd trail, the reroute at the mud hole and the Committee reroute to be absolutely a blast. I mean how often do we get a chance to make new trails. I would hate to have tow a dead rig out the new route but I think we can massage it a bit more to help.

I think a simple sign printed out, in a large enough font to be read without getting out of the vehicle, and laminated placed right at the log dam would be a big help. If anything someone might feel a bit of guilt and think twice before plowing through the old route.

I do have a question. Who has firsthand experience with towing a dead rig out through the new section. I would like to hear how it went. What parts were troublesome and if you had any recommendations on what could be improved.

Thank you
Jeff

we did it and dragging a dead truck up winch 2 was way harder along with many other parts of the trail. Like others have said, people need to come prepared. Every extraction is different and if you make it easy to extract a short wheel base vehicle, the long wheelbase guy will complain and vice versa. I wouldn't change a thing. Recovery is part of the fun and if the trail is too difficult people need to run a trail that fits their style. Here is the extraction details in the link below.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...319&highlight=

I just towed a mostly dead rig out through the new section. It had front wheel drive and steer capabilities, so it made it much easier.

It wasnt bad. Just tugged with a tow strap (from the top of WH #2). The reroute was pretty easy except for one spot where we had to winch with 2 different pulls. It was the last little 'nasty' uphill section before you turn down to get to the old trail. the tow strap made it so he and I were both clawing for traction at the same time, preventing me from getting a good pull on him. Two quick tugs from the winch, and we were back in action.

The turns are a little tight in a couple spots that would make a DEAD rig much harder, but fix your shit before you leave so at least you can steer

Thanks for the info.

I just towed a mostly dead rig out through the new section. It had front wheel drive and steer capabilities, so it made it much easier.

It wasnt bad. Just tugged with a tow strap (from the top of WH #2). The reroute was pretty easy except for one spot where we had to winch with 2 different pulls. It was the last little 'nasty' uphill section before you turn down to get to the old trail. the tow strap made it so he and I were both clawing for traction at the same time, preventing me from getting a good pull on him. Two quick tugs from the winch, and we were back in action.

The turns are a little tight in a couple spots that would make a DEAD rig much harder, but fix your shit before you leave so at least you can steer

I was looking at that exact spot where there are those S turns that go up hill in that last little stretch and thinking to myself what a pita it would be to tow a dead rig out of there and was looking for winch points to get through it.

The new bypass is put together very well but the tight turns in those uphill sections toward the end make it so your pulling the rig your towing from a side angle depending on your distance apart. Its good to hear you were able to manage up the hill without too much trouble.

On another note it is really nice to see we are able to get a new little challenging section of trail.

I'm thinking the new Committee route is going to keep a lot of Dana 35 crowd out of Fordyce - not that I have a problem with that.

As Matt said, pulling a broken rig out would be an all-day event on the new trail. It would definitely be the shits to be stuck behind them as there are few places to get around a broken wheeler.

the new by pass is wonderful if you have 37 inch tires,long arm lift,full width axles and 120 inch wheel base. but not so good for everyone else yes it is difficult. yes i see the reason for the by pass. however I do think it needs a lot of improvement. and in the future dont forget the short wheel base vehicles that started all of this. I would like to see the trail limited to street legal vehicles. use driving skill instead of tire size and lots of lift.

what exactly is the dana 35 crowd?

As Matt said, pulling a broken rig out would be an all-day event on the new trail.
The folks who have done it report this not to be the case.

It would definitely be the shits to be stuck behind them as there are few places to get around a broken wheeler.
There's an affirmative suggestion here, to work with Friends of Fordyce and the property owners to help install pull-outs that allow safe and timely passing.

the new by pass is wonderful if you have 37 inch tires,long arm lift,full width axles and 120 inch wheel base. but not so good for everyone else yes it is difficult. yes i see the reason for the by pass. however I do think it needs a lot of improvement.
Then pitch in and help! The new route was built by the folks that showed up -- I think Friends of Fordyce would welcome short wheelbase folks with small tires who wanted to help, and having them there to help would undoubtably help make this route more functional for them. The world is run by those who show up -- please pitch in and be one of those people!

...and in the future dont forget the short wheel base vehicles that started all of this.
Friends of Fordyce hasn't forgotten those folks -- one of their main 'testers' for their work drives a TJ on 35s, and he reports no problems with this new stretch of trail.

Randii

Use driving skill instead of tire size and lots of lift.

In 2009 Trek asked us (WeBilt) to hangout on the new trail and make sure all Trek participants went through the new trail without any issues. Besides spotting we did not need to help any of the participants get through up or down. I would say that 90% of them had smaller tires than 37's and a couple were even on 31's. Since then the trail has started to be broke in so it is even easier.

PG&E asked FOF to close the trail that we use on their private land. Generously they allowed us to create a new trail so we still have access!! The trail was designed with the help of PG&E, Forest Service and FOF.

Our only option is to use the new trail. If we do not stop using the old trail they WILL tell us to stop using the new trail and not cross the creek...

Yes i see the reason for the bypass. however I do think it needs a lot of improvement. and in the future don’t forget the short wheel base vehicles that started all of this.

Thank you for your input and we will be happy to see you on the next workday! This will allow you to have some input while we are working on the trail and not 2 years later.

I would like to see the trail limited to street legal vehicles.


Fordyce is not a road. Another example of what you just said. Should I call Pebble Beach and ask them to change some of the holes because they are too hard? They have a hole that the green is an island. I think that’s sweet! But if you had to hit 20 balls to finally get one on the green and didn’t like that. Their solution to you is going to be to sell you more balls. They are not going to change the hole.

I'm thinking the new Committee route is going to keep a lot of Dana 35 crowd out of Fordyce - not that I have a problem with that.
Really? So the small-jeep guys who wrested this route back from the wilds, who re-opened it and made it available for all of us, you're cool effectively closing their access? :confused:

...I would like to see the trail limited to street legal vehicles. use driving skill instead of tire size and lots of lift.
Really, so you'd like to outlaw the guys who have been working hardest to keep the trail open recently?

Right there, in two posts, we've documented the single biggest reason why we have such difficulty working together inside our own hobby -- too much infighting. Big tires vs. little tires, short wheelbase vs. long wheelbase, license plates vs. green stickers, and on, and on. If we can't see our own narrow slice of the hobby, the anti-recreationists will continue to divide/separate and/or leverage existing divisions to reduce our effectiveness and close more trails.

FordFascist and cj564dj, I bet we could all get along fine around the same campfire, visiting the same forest by use of the same trail... i hope we can work together and continue to drive there, because it would sure suck to have to hike in to meet to share a beer together after outlawing green stickers or managing to exclude little tires reduced the folks who fight to keep Fordyce open enough that we all lost access...

Randii (kum-ba-yah)

Well said Randii.

FordFascist and cj564dj - FOF put together a great meeting last Saturday! We discussed these topics and many more. Issues were brought up and solutions were suggested.

All issues need solutions. If anyone has solutions we would really like your input!

the new by pass is wonderful if you have 37 inch tires,long arm lift,full width axles and 120 inch wheel base. but not so good for everyone else yes it is difficult. yes i see the reason for the by pass. however I do think it needs a lot of improvement. and in the future dont forget the short wheel base vehicles that started all of this. I would like to see the trail limited to street legal vehicles. use driving skill instead of tire size and lots of lift.

I welcome your input. Please tell me why you would like to make this section of the trail easier. Specifically what parts of it are making it "not so good" and what you would suggest to improve it. Are you saying this like you are dragging a dead rig out or as a single rig navigating it?

Edit: Not sure I understand the "trail limited to street legal vehicles. use driving skill instead of tire size and lots of lift" comment. You are saying make this section easier so it requires less driving skill or people need to get better driving skills? (or both) Please clarify.

Thanks
Jeff

Really? So the small-jeep guys who wrested this route back from the wilds, who re-opened it and made it available for all of us, you're cool effectively closing their access? :confused:


Really, so you'd like to outlaw the guys who have been working hardest to keep the trail open recently?

Right there, in two posts, we've documented the single biggest reason why we have such difficulty working together inside our own hobby -- too much infighting. Big tires vs. little tires, short wheelbase vs. long wheelbase, license plates vs. green stickers, and on, and on. If we can't see our own narrow slice of the hobby, the anti-recreationists will continue to divide/separate and/or leverage existing divisions to reduce our effectiveness and close more trails.

FordFascist and cj564dj, I bet we could all get along fine around the same campfire, visiting the same forest by use of the same trail... i hope we can work together and continue to drive there, because it would sure suck to have to hike in to meet to share a beer together after outlawing green stickers or managing to exclude little tires reduced the folks who fight to keep Fordyce open enough that we all lost access...

Randii (kum-ba-yah)


I think you missed the inference of my original comment. I'm not for keeping anyone out nor am I for discouraging stockish-type wheelers. In case you haven't seen this before, I wheeled this trail in a Flattie (45 GPW) so I certainly understand how the "Winch" Hills got their names.

I've seen people get in way over their head on Fordyce (and other trails for that matter) from the perspective of being stuck behind them. If the entrance to the trail is this trying, it would give pause to those trying to bring under-built rigs or inexperienced drivers deep into the trail.



what exactly is the dana 35 crowd?


Read: Stock-ish Wranglers (which 99% of come with a Dana 35 rear axle) with a rear axle that is notorious for leaving its owners stranded offroad. You do not want to be stranded behind one of these on the 5 Winch Hills.

I think you missed the inference of my original comment.
Apologies, if so. Kum-ba-yah! :D

I've seen people get in way over their head on Fordyce (and other trails for that matter) from the perspective of being stuck behind them.
I hear that, but I've been stuck behind a whole range of vehicles... the one thing in common to most of those delays was crappy driving.

If the entrance to the trail is this trying, it would give pause to those trying to bring under-built rigs or inexperienced drivers deep into the trail.
I agree with this -- I've long been a fan of what the agencies call 'Trail Filters' and would love to see the ends of the trail maintained to the challenge of the middle. Luckily, at the Committee Crossing, there's a big, wet trail filter at the bottom of the hill known as Fordyce Creek. :p

Randii

I hear that, but I've been stuck behind a whole range of vehicles... the one thing in common to most of those delays was crappy driving.
Randii

The funny thing is that the crappy drivers all think they can drive. :laughing:

The funny thing is that the crappy drivers all think they can drive. :laughing:

I just keep one really bad part on the rig at all times so I can blame my crappy driving on something else :D

if it matters, I really like the bypass. I dont think its hard enough to warrant change. I pulled a scout II on 36 tires (102" wheel base) and leaves front and rear through it with very little problem.

FOF has done a great job with the reroutes IMO. I didnt get a chance to run it last year, so this was my first season on them, and I think they are great. Both committee and around that mud pit area are fun, mildly challenging, and in nature with the rest of the trail.

Instead of complaining about not havin an easy way to tow a rig out, how about appreciating the work that has been done? If you want easy access, maybe moon rocks and hollister are more your speed. you can beat the crap out of your rig for no reason, and be able to get it back to the tow rig?

I say keep as it is. I do have one comment on the mud pit bypass. There seems to be one downhill/offcamber spot that got a little washed out after the recent rains. Im guessing it may be a problem after the snow/rain of the winter. I mentioned it to a few FOF/4dice guys on the way out, but wanted to mention it again.

Thanks again FOF for all the hard work.

I just keep one really bad part on the rig at all times so I can blame my crappy driving on something else :D

Only one? :flipoff2:

if it matters, I really like the bypass. I dont think its hard enough to warrant change. I pulled a scout II on 36 tires (102" wheel base) and leaves front and rear through it with very little problem.

FOF has done a great job with the reroutes IMO. I didnt get a chance to run it last year, so this was my first season on them, and I think they are great. Both committee and around that mud pit area are fun, mildly challenging, and in nature with the rest of the trail.

Instead of complaining about not havin an easy way to tow a rig out, how about appreciating the work that has been done? If you want easy access, maybe moon rocks and hollister are more your speed. you can beat the crap out of your rig for no reason, and be able to get it back to the tow rig?

I say keep as it is. I do have one comment on the mud pit bypass. There seems to be one downhill/offcamber spot that got a little washed out after the recent rains. Im guessing it may be a problem after the snow/rain of the winter. I mentioned it to a few FOF/4dice guys on the way out, but wanted to mention it again.

Thanks again FOF for all the hard work.

Thank you for the nice words. I believe I talked to you at FD Lake Friday evening on your way out. (I'm the big guy....not the skinny guy :D) The mile 6.5 (mud hole) reroute is one of the first things on our maintance list for next year.

hey guys don't get me wrong I appreciate all the hard you all have done to keep the trail open for all of us to enjoy and I get that all I am saying is It looks like the new bypasses were designed without the guy with a small budget who wants to wheel smothing close to stock with his kid for the weekend. does it all need to be so extreme? don't get me wrong my shit is tight when I leave home and I have a very capable rig. I have a problem with the wanabe we rock crowd who don't spend the money and time to compete, take it to the next level and stepup.

(I'm the big guy....not the skinny guy :D) .

you mean paul bunyan?:flipoff2:

yeah, that was me in the bronco. Did you see the wash out area I was talking about?

hey guys don't get me wrong I appreciate all the hard you all have done to keep the trail open for all of us to enjoy and I get that all I am saying is It looks like the new bypasses were designed without the guy with a small budget who wants to wheel smothing close to stock with his kid for the weekend. does it all need to be so extreme? don't get me wrong my shit is tight when I leave home and I have a very capable rig

We had several 32, 33 and 35" tire guys with short and medium wheelbase with us when building both of the reroutes. None of them had an issue and they still don't. We don't build a bypass with someone’s budget in mind. We build the route where we have approval to build them. Fordyce Trail is not a trail for something "close to stock" and should be respected as a difficult trail. The forest is filled with legal routes that are far less challenging for those users looking or a less challenging trip. I asked you for specific areas on the reroute that you think need changing but you have given me nothing to work with. I assume you find the entire thing is too difficult?

I have a problem with the wanabe we rock crowd who don't spend the money and time to compete, take it to the next level and stepup.

Not sure what to make of this. I read it a few times and my head hurts.

We took a CJ with a broken front axle out comitee. It was not at all dificult for them, and they did not require a strap at any time. The only part of either of the new re-routes is the drops near the end of each. We did not have a problem on either, but I could see the one at the top of comitee geting scary when it gets wet. Also, it seems that people are going around that last drop on committee by going to the left of it. That appears to be a much easier route, so maybe it is possible to incorporate it into the official route.

We took a CJ with a broken front axle out comitee. It was not at all dificult for them, and they did not require a strap at any time. The only part of either of the new re-routes is the drops near the end of each. We did not have a problem on either, but I could see the one at the top of comitee geting scary when it gets wet. Also, it seems that people are going around that last drop on committee by going to the left of it. That appears to be a much easier route, so maybe it is possible to incorporate it into the official route.

Good feedback...thanks

hey guys don't get me wrong I appreciate all the hard you all have done to keep the trail open for all of us to enjoy and I get that all I am saying is It looks like the new bypasses were designed without the guy with a small budget who wants to wheel smothing close to stock with his kid for the weekend. does it all need to be so extreme? don't get me wrong my shit is tight when I leave home and I have a very capable rig. I have a problem with the wanabe we rock crowd who don't spend the money and time to compete, take it to the next level and stepup.

When we constructed the new trail we were trying to design it to be in line with the rest of the trail and most importantly fill the request of PG&E to move the trail to sustainable ground.

When you are cutting through 4 ft deep bush you dont exactly know what the finished product is going to look like...so you cut the bush out, have as many people run it as possible and change it accordingly. Its not like it was wide open land where we said hey lets make a new buggy trail.

I wonder if Ed Dunkley got trashed for being too extreme when he re-opened the trail and created all the hard spots there are today????

Here a few pics so you can get an idea of what we started with....

Check out pic #19 in Corax's photos to get an idea of what it looked like

http://jdhill.smugmug.com/gallery/5549568_KL4ip/1/339981232_nxW49#339981232_nxW49




http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=382326&stc=1&d=1217260708

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=382461&stc=1&d=1217306886

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=382321&stc=1&d=1217260438

does it all need to be so extreme? don't get me wrong my shit is tight when I leave home and I have a very capable rig.

I'm not sure what your issue is? The reroutes are comparable to most of the rest of the trail. They haven't made the trail any harder than it already was overall. They aren't keeping anybody out. They definitely are not as hard as the most difficult sections (winch hills, etc.) that you have to be able to cross if you plan on running the trail.

And its definitely not "all" extreme. This happens to be one of the most extreme trails in the Sierras. Pretty much always has been. If you don't want to run an extreme trail, choose a different one, don't lobby to change this one. There are far more of these medium difficulty trails around than there are "extreme" ones. Pierce Meadow, Eagle Lakes, and Signal Peak trails are all in the same vicinity and may be exactly what you're looking for. :beer:

"If you don't want to run an extreme trail, choose a different one, don't lobby to change this one. There are far more of these medium difficulty trails around than there are "extreme" ones. Pierce Meadow, Eagle Lakes, and Signal Peak trails are all in the same vicinity and may be exactly what you're looking for."


X a bazillion. Very well said!!!

I did the new committe trail this weekend it wasn't bad really. Definatly not a easier way out for a dead rig with some of the tight zig zags. It just adds a new layer to the trail that makes it that much better. If it were easy it would let more cidiots in and you'd have a fj in the river story every year. Maybe twice a year

I've also been reading about the recent paving of the rubicon. Its sucks but, if everybody from the con migrates to fordyce as the exclusive trail I see nothing but the same problems for the fordyce. Sorry to be negative. I love the trail and would hate to see another one bite the dust.

ran the new trail for first time this morning on my way out.. im only on 32's locked in the front and it was a nice new fun challange. everyone who worked to make that trail did a great job. all tho i did manage to fill my passanger floor bored with trash i found. other then that the trail is outstanding.

the trash has been getting bad, so are the TP flowers

the trash has been getting bad, so are the TP flowers

Sounds like Fordyce needs a White Lilly campaign like the Rubicon has.

Meeting November 2nd with the Forest Service to come up with a plan.:D

I think with the new signage and flyers people will see there is a presence on the trail and this should help with the trash and the white flowers.

My friend and I went in the new route last weekend and neither of us had been there since it had been done. It was very clear for us where to go, so that is not an excuse. We liked the new route and the barricades apppeared to be well intact and well marked and didn't look like anyone was going around them.

Great work out there. :beer:

My friend and I went in the new route last weekend and neither of us had been there since it had been done. It was very clear for us where to go, so that is not an excuse. We liked the new route and the barricades apppeared to be well intact and well marked and didn't look like anyone was going around them.

Great work out there. :beer:

Thanks for the update.

Keep in mind that the committee reroute was done at the request on the land owner. (PG&E) The reroute was not constructed to be an “easier” way out. It was constructed to avoid a deteriorating section of trail. It is imperative that the old section of trail not be used. I find it frustrating as hell having people remove an obvious blockade. I don’t know the exact reasons why it was done but I would guess it had to do with someone looking for the easiest possible way out without thinking of ANY possible consequences or the bigger picture. Like I said…just a guess.

I do have a question. Who has firsthand experience with towing a dead rig out through the new section. I would like to hear how it went. What parts were troublesome and if you had any recommendations on what could be improved.

Thank you
Jeff

Of course since i crammed a EFI 460 and ZF 5 speed into my tow truck this summer, I havent had the fun of towing anybody out this year!!!!

But if i do, you will be the 3rd person to know how the new by pass whent!!

1st me

2nd the guy im towing

3rd you :D

Thats awesome! :laughing:

Keep the feedback coming :D

i think its funny how everyone is worried about getting a dead rig out the last 200 yards of the trail. what about the other 5 miles? i'd say those are a little harder.

i liked the new route, a little tight with traffic in spots but i'm sure it will widen itself out. like you said, cutting a perfect route through brush ain't easy.

I have not been of that section of the trail in three years. I forget what weekend it was I went, sometime in Sept. I got to the new section from the lake and was like "wow" WTF? The logs were pushed aside, but I went on the new trail. I was towing my trailer, and had two kayaks on top. Wasn't long before I got screwed up. Trying to miss the diff daggers and keep the kayaks off trees, I got it jack knifed. Had to drop the trailer(which rolled and turned with the pintle off the side of the trail :shaking: ), had to stack rocks to keep the front shaft out of danger while more rocks placed to keep the kayaks from getting smashed. Once I got the rig turned around I had to pull the trailer back to a spot I could reconnect it. Took me about 45mins to get out of that mess.

The first ledge after the new trail starts with the huge tree on the left was a tug since I had the trailer and fear of the kayaks laying into the tree. It could use a little help in that area, but other than that, it seemed just fine to me. Little extra wheeling is a good thing when u are out to go wheeling right?

I have not been of that section of the trail in three years. I forget what weekend it was I went, sometime in Sept. I got to the new section from the lake and was like "wow" WTF? The logs were pushed aside, but I went on the new trail. I was towing my trailer, and had two kayaks on top. Wasn't long before I got screwed up. Trying to miss the diff daggers and keep the kayaks off trees, I got it jack knifed. Had to drop the trailer(which rolled and turned with the pintle off the side of the trail :shaking: ), had to stack rocks to keep the front shaft out of danger while more rocks placed to keep the kayaks from getting smashed. Once I got the rig turned around I had to pull the trailer back to a spot I could reconnect it. Took me about 45mins to get out of that mess.

The first ledge after the new trail starts with the huge tree on the left was a tug since I had the trailer and fear of the kayaks laying into the tree. It could use a little help in that area, but other than that, it seemed just fine to me. Little extra wheeling is a good thing when u are out to go wheeling right?



Ummm... u were at 32 psi Smurf~! Fag! Too lazy to air down, so he ratfawked himself and I saved the day...

lol, the truth comes out!!!! :laughing:

Ummm... u were at 32 psi Smurf~! Fag! Too lazy to air down, so he ratfawked himself and I saved the day...



Ahh Zombie love:laughing: Who stole Keith's log in?:flipoff2:

Ah, it's true. I never would have got the trailer back on without his help. :laughing:

HAHA!!! sure u would have, just would have taken a while... Once you found the right line and the skinney pedal u didn't have to air down afterall...

Anytime Smurf~

These pictures are from Saturday November 6, 2010. I had read this thread and was almost expecting to not know which way to go. The new route was clearly marked, IMO. I assume work was done on this since this thread started, so thank you to those involved :beer: I ran it in both directions, and I have to say I like the reroute better than the old route

D

http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/yy206/DBozsPictures/trip%20pictures/Fordyce%20NOV%202010/IMGP2923.jpg

http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/yy206/DBozsPictures/trip%20pictures/Fordyce%20NOV%202010/IMGP2988.jpg

http://i792.photobucket.com/albums/yy206/DBozsPictures/trip%20pictures/Fordyce%20NOV%202010/IMGP2991.jpg

i think its funny how everyone is worried about getting a dead rig out the last 200 yards of the trail. what about the other 5 miles? i'd say those are a little harder.

i liked the new route, a little tight with traffic in spots but i'm sure it will widen itself out. like you said, cutting a perfect route through brush ain't easy.

for some reason when towing a dead rig out its the last 200 yards that has been known to take 1/2 a day even after the first 5 miles go by at least as long as i've been running this trail.

Then again it is the carnage canyon. if it can happen it will happen and you had better be prepared to deal with the ever changing trail conditions. that includes the short yet sometimes very challenging (even before the reroute) section that we are all discussing.

Maybe it should have been treated like gatekeeper instead, a little blasting, a little paving and maybe a few more ill equipt rigs getting down into the creek.

Nice job on the new section, i have no doubt even my rig on 35's sua towing a heavier dead rig on 38's would have no problem navigating it.

I wish people would understand that this reroute was not done to make the trail easier, it was not done to make the trail more difficult, it was done because the land owner, (PG&E) said, and the USFS agreed, that the old trail was becoming erroded to the point of being a concern.
There were several other options on the reroute that would have pretty much maintained the same difficulty, but those routes were also over dirt, and that was not acceptable by anyone. Accompanied by the USFS, the new route was chosen because if had a better base than any of the alternatives.

The entire Committe Road is over private property, and PG&E has every right to say "OK, were done, and close the road", but they have been most accomodating by allowing us to reroute away from the damaged trail. This is not a matter of choosing the easiest way, this is a matter of use the reroute or close the road entirely.

Last weekend we extracted a full size Blazer using this route. Would the old way have been more convenient, perhaps, but that was not an option.

I was up there the end of Oct., and was pleased with all of the hard work everyone put in. I thought it was a nice piece of trail, not to difficult, not to easy. After all we are going up there to go wheeling, arent we? I think if you cant negotiate your way up and down this section of trail, you probably shouldnt be on the trail.

I was up yesterday and both of the blockades are still intact. They don't look as substantial as before they were knocked down but at least people are sticking to the trail. We also watched a Toyota tow a broken full size Dodge out and they did just fine.

Thanks to everyone who worked so hard on the new route and the blockades. And thanks to everyone for staying on the new trail.:D

...bringing old thread back up... I didn't want to clog up the 'Pictures' thread.

Quote stolen from pic thread:
I just got back from Fordyce lake,and running the Committee trail.Here is a picture of the old trail comming down the hill.It doesn"t even look blocked.I can see were people that aren't aware, would want to take that path.It has to be blocked with a real block.What RCKRATZ is talking about is the only solution.Dump some BIG trees.Ones that a KOH rig can't even get over...It's obvious that trynig to block it again,and again is not working.For some reason,people want to take the easy path,even though it has logs accross it.I just don't get it.Isn't the harder route more fun?That's why we wheel,right?

Done with my rant.......:flipoff2:


I was on the trail Oct 21-23. We broke a rig just past WH3, and turned around and wanted to head out committee trail. I was new to the trail. By the time we made the committee water crossing, I was towing a partially disabled Jeep, and behind me was a Bronco pulling another partially disabled Jeep. I was in lead. We started the climb up, and got to the point of where the 'old' route intersects what I now know to be the re-route. We saw the sign on the tree past the 'Y', but it was close enough that it was confusing as to which route was the trail. We walked up the 'old' route a bit to see if it was the trail or not--there was no blockage or anything keeping tiny tires from trying it. I chose to go what looked like the more used route (the re-route) and we started climbing up over the ledges and were at the base of the shelf part, and all was going fine until some traffic came down the re-route and told us to turn around and take the 'old' route up the hill--that it was easier for us with broken stuff. So we did, and went up the 'old' route without issues or blockage or any sign that folks shouldn't be there. I had read a bunch of stuff (this thread, actually), but not knowing the lay of the land for the trail, there was no way someone would have any clue to not go up or down the 'old' trail.

I really enjoyed my first trip on Fordyce and look forward to helping out on work weekends and such to get to know & enjoy the area more!

-Mark

There has to be some BIG "widow makers" around there that can be downed to block the trail.

There has to be some BIG "widow makers" around there that can be downed to block the trail.

That's just it, PG&E hasnt allowed us to cut dead standing in the area. Early next year we are going to have to get them out there to do it for us

Everyone please understand that this re-route was not done in any effort to make the trail different, harder, or easier. It was done at the request and agreement with PG&E whom owns the land, and the USFS. I understand that for someone not familiar with the trail that the change is hard to understand. Problem is that even those whom know the trail are treating this change like it was an done simply to change the trail, not that it was done in an effort to preserve our access and use of this road. Because the original trail that is being bypassed is mostly dirt and under the trees, therefore almost always wet, it is eroding to the point that is was becoming a real concern. And re-routing to a hard base was the only solution.
We will continue our efforts to block the old route, as we have done multiple times before. Our last attempt was partially foiled by an early snow that severely hampered our success.

Everyone please understand that this re-route was not done in any effort to make the trail different, harder, or easier. It was done at the request and agreement with PG&E whom owns the land, and the USFS. I understand that for someone not familiar with the trail that the change is hard to understand. Problem is that even those whom know the trail are treating this change like it was an done simply to change the trail, not that it was done in an effort to preserve our access and use of this road. Because the original trail that is being bypassed is mostly dirt and under the trees, therefore almost always wet, it is eroding to the point that is was becoming a real concern. And re-routing to a hard base was the only solution.
We will continue our efforts to block the old route, as we have done multiple times before. Our last attempt was partially foiled by an early snow that severely hampered our success.

I agree 100% that the re-route is the right thing. My reason for bringing this up was simply that 'on the ground' there is no way to know that one shouldn't drive up the old route. Also, that fellow wheelers don't know everything that goes on the forums, so as well meaning as they are, don't know themselves that they shouldn't be driving there.... I know this is old news, but I thought it should be brought up again-as I had my own learning curve when I was there.

Thanks again for all those maintaining the trail, it's fun place to recreate! I look forward to spending time up there working with ya.

-Mark

I am the partially disabled Jeep Mark was hauling up the trail Oct, 21 - 23. Thought the trail was great, and enjoyed the re-route as far as we went up it. From reading the forum, it sounds as if the re-route has been more clearly marked/blocked now, but on that trip, there was no form of blockade present any longer. We had both heard that there was a re-route and attempted to make the right decision. Sounds like we did until we were turned around by another rig coming down the trail towards us. Anyhow, re-route good, old trail bad. We had very little difficulty climbing up the re-route that weekend. I had broken my front passenger side axle just after WH3. We had a strap on the back of Mark's Toyota to assist when necessary on our way up Committee. I was able to climb all the obstacles on Committee with very little assistance in 3 wheel drive. Was also my first trip on Fordyce. What an excellent trail. Can't wait to get back out there, to play and help out.

:D

Most of us agree that the we need better signage. We are planning on installing these in the spring. As far blocking the old route all we can do, for now, is work with what we have on the ground. We clearly have a cycle happening. People volunteer their time to block the old route – someone says F/U and makes a choice to blow through it – the trail becomes difficult to see – people start driving off trail. Come spring I am hopeful we can make the needed changes to close improper route for the last time.

Also it’s been long enough to start calling the “re-route” the “trail”. Anything else is off-trail or the old route. Subtle change in nomenclature.

I may catch crap for this, but what about something more like a log fence vs piles of wood? They could be anchored/chained to one another, with signage or arrows pointing the direction you need to go.

Similar to this:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a240/HummBeeBe/IMG_3860.jpg

Mike,

IMO something like that will be driven over the first weekend it's out there. The idea is to create a barrier that is just too much work to deal with. Not so much a wall but rather 200 yards of big ass trees crossing the trail. Something visual that will make people contemplating going that way say “fawk that”.

Keep in mind we have had multiple 6' plus log walls driven around, over or winched out of the way.

what about dragging a crap ton of logs down from the slide area. leave them long 20-30'. if we skidded 15-20 of them down the hill and plugged up the old trail (the steep part) with them to the point where there was no way around. then pile the smaller stuff in further from that and at the bottom skid a half a dozen 20+ ' logs down and jamb up things there too. that would probably go a long ways.


6' worth of logs doesnt mean much but 30 or 60' worth of impassable blockage along with more debris might through out the trail area go further. the problem i see is the path behind the current blockage at the top still looks like a trail below and behind the sign is still visably usable. block the steep section to the point where it's impossible to ever try and circum navigate around the blockage and make a large blockage at the bottom. i think that will make it pointless to attempt and travel up the old section and people will grow tired of clearing the lower section only to discover multiple debris blocks and a huge 30-60' wall of logs at the top.

plus with proper camoflauge that lower section should become hard to distinguish. right now the old tire tracks are still too visable and enticing. i imagine the FS might give us a few lowly mazanita bushes to transplant into the middle of the path.

The most recent blocking work done on the top end of the trail in October by FOF/FourDice 4x4 club. It was a great block/very obvious.

Unfortunately, there wasn't a block at the bottom of the old section of trail.

The only signage is a pic of a jeep w/an arrow pointing left 20' on a tree where your supposed to turn left.

I was going up it at dusk, and was tired & actually missed the left turn at first. I realized it after about 20 feet. This is because the left turn goes up a steep rock slab.

The "un-done" occurred that same evening by a group of rigs that did the same thing I did (missed the left turn going up), and drove up the hill for 10 minutes & then hit the block. Rather than turning around & finding the new section of trail, they went over the work that was done that very same day.:mad3:

The most recent blocking work done on the top end of the trail in October by FOF/FourDice 4x4 club. It was a great block/very obvious.

Unfortunately, there wasn't a block at the bottom of the old section of trail.

The only signage is a pic of a jeep w/an arrow pointing left 20' on a tree where your supposed to turn left.

I was going up it at dusk, and was tired & actually missed the left turn at first. I realized it after about 20 feet. This is because the left turn goes up a steep rock slab.

The "un-done" occurred that same evening by a group of rigs that did the same thing I did (missed the left turn going up), and drove up the hill for 10 minutes & then hit the block. Rather than turning around & finding the new section of trail, they went over the work that was done that very same day.:mad3:

I agree that the turn, on the lower side, can be hard to see for those not used to the trail. This is the reason we are putting up signs in the spring. I hope you threw a log across the old route after you realized you went the wrong way!?

In hind sight I should have.

I was solo (w/my brother & my 8 yr old son) & we were 2 hours late getting back to camp due to a broken valve stem. Not to mention it we it was late dusk.

It might be a lot of work - but it looks human built. Which makes it more obvious.

A pile of debris looks like a pile of debris. People won't respect it as much. (obviously they don't in this case).

You can construct something similar to the range fencing we put up at the bottom of the Bowl on the Rubicon and remove it when the trail looks a little more wild.

Or like the pic might put up, which we did to prevent folks from entering a meadow on Slickrock Trail. You can do two levels instead of just one.

Maybe there is just a group of folks out there who are defiantly keeping the old trail open because they don't like the new one?

If you are one of those people, why not get in touch with Tinman and communicate your concerns so FOF can solve the issue? Why continue to put the entire use of the trail at risk because you are dissatisfied?

Come on - it's not hard.

I will agree with Bebe that the range style huge blockades used on the slab as you entered the trail from Loon was one of the single most noticable block offs on the trail. Has there been any issues with use of the lower trail around the slabs since then ??? I dunno but it sure was an effective visible barrier. Is it still there or has it been turned into firewood ??

I will agree with Bebe that the range style huge blockades used on the slab as you entered the trail from Loon was one of the single most noticable block offs on the trail.
Agreed. The fences are still there on both sides, and there's been minimal drive-around. It weathered and blends well into the surroundings unless you are right on top of it, in which case it remains an effective visible barrier.

The CCCs did a similar fence on the Tahoe side to keep people out of the obvious meadow and on the equally obvious trail. I hope it will be similarly effective, otherwise we are at risk to lose winter access to the Tahoe side of the trail.

I agree with Jacquelyne -- compliance and cooperation shouldn't be hard.

Randii

The range fence as the first line of defense would be very doable. The linear footage would not be that much. Guessing around 20-30 feet on the lower side and 15-20 feet on the upper. This and the 200 yards of “fawk that” trees criss-crossing the trail. Although with proper signage and a barrier at the “Y’s” it would seem that the people who genuinely want to stay on the trail would get it.

maybe a lame question but why is there a a problem having 2 lines? winch hill 1 qnd 3 have options as well as driveline.

maybe a lame question but why is there a a problem having 2 lines? winch hill 1 qnd 3 have options as well as driveline.

Because PG&E decided that the amount of erosion on the old route was not sustainable. It was basically a move it or lose it proposition. Leaving the old route open is/was not an option.

Didn't know pge owned that side of the property or for that matter wasn't aware pge had the interest of environmental impact for the state.

Everyone please understand that this re-route was not done in any effort to make the trail different, harder, or easier. It was done at the request and agreement with PG&E whom owns the land, and the USFS. I understand that for someone not familiar with the trail that the change is hard to understand. Problem is that even those whom know the trail are treating this change like it was an done simply to change the trail, not that it was done in an effort to preserve our access and use of this road. Because the original trail that is being bypassed is mostly dirt and under the trees, therefore almost always wet, it is eroding to the point that is was becoming a real concern. And re-routing to a hard base was the only solution.
We will continue our efforts to block the old route, as we have done multiple times before. Our last attempt was partially foiled by an early snow that severely hampered our success. read

Didn't know pge owned that side of the property or for that matter wasn't aware pge had the interest of environmental impact for the state.

PGE keeps it open as a courtesy. ultimately their bottom line interest is in staying out of the regional water quality contol board's crosshairs. if our trail infringes on thier permit or profitability you can bet the ole 1/2 way cut out will become a memory like bassi falls even if it is an established ROW

im real new to 4 wheel drive stuff and wasnt aware they were the land owner.

PGE keeps it open as a courtesy.

How do you know that?

How do you know that?

my reasoning behind the statement was if PGE wanted to and if they were threatened by a RWQCB order they could have pursued closing the old section due to continued unmitigated errossion and never worked with anyone on the new bypass. or if people started dumping large amounts of garbage all over that section of the trail and abandoning cars up there on their property my understanding is they reserve the right to petition to close the right of way through there if necessary.


now my information may be incorrect but that is the premis i have always operated under. respectfully acknowledging that it is their property that we are crossing through an established ROW and that if conditions or circumstances developed to the point where they needed to address the condition of the trail creating a hazard then there that would be a threat to our access.

If i am incorrect in my assumption please feel free to point it out