Hello. New to the forum, but I've read many posts and links. I recently bought a 1966 404, and the stock M180 seems to run OK. The 'mog drives nice and the brakes work well for 1966. The first time I took it out on the road I was suprised at the lack of power. It's like, they tell you, but once a person experiences for yourself it all becomes so clear. I can deal with the slow, if I could maintain a constant speed, but I live in a hilly countryside and 2nd gear is not going to cut it. (thinking it's a 4 spd).

I think things should be practical and easy to repair. I've put Datsun engines in Mazdas, and Chevys in Toyotas, so I don't care about what is 'proper'. Just make it nice and clean, then drive the sheet out of it.

I've read most posts about engine swaps, and that Nissan is nice. (I wanted to stroke my Datsun motor with one of thoses crankshafts.) Most comments are the 5 cylinder Merc turbo with the kit that's about $2500 to put it in. I think that's about the only install kit I've read about? The Ford 300 sounds good, but I don't think that I've read about it working yet. Correct me if I'm wrong, but about the cheapest and easiest way to get somewhat reasonable power is the M130 upgrade? What about this oil bypass or something??

I've got a line on a Mercedes 280S, and in 1968 that car should have the M130 engine? The car is only $500, then re-ring the engine, re-grind the cam to a better profile, head porting and maybe bigger valves (if I can find something that will work). Figure about $1200 - $1500 into the engine, but then it should bolt in the truck. It's the front mount, oil pan mods, neutral balance the mog flywheel, and the oiling issue? Opinoins? Am I missing anything?

Sounds like you are on the right track. The only issue I foresee is needing a 24V electronic ignition module for that engine (which CAN be ordered); though I suppose you could convert to 12V or continue to use the breaker points. It may also be possible to swap in the complete mog distributor but... I would avoid that if possible.

As to the oil bypass... since the M130 was offered in these trucks I would think that the long-block would largely be the same between the unimog and the sedan. Is it possible the oil bypass issue you are thinking of comes into play when you put the M130 head on the M180 block?

My only question, personally, is: Will this be enough of a power increase for you?

Enough power? Obviously more is better, but I've read that the trans is kinda weak so I wouldn't want to over-power and cause more issues. I was thinking about the diesel option, but the mog seems to rev fairly high while trying to drive on the hiway. Not sure how many diesels could handle extended trips at 3500-4000 rpm. I thought about just put on a higher profile tire to drop the rpm, but that would add more stress to the trans again. I'm just trying to balance power vs. breaking parts.

I've found in the past that you can chase around the weakness in your project until you've got a completely new and upgraded truck. Trying to avoid that with this one. I'm sure someone out there has converted a mog to triangulated 4-link, coilovers, and chevy power. Fun, easy to fix, but about a 10 grand upgrade.

Looking for input before I commit in one direction.

Firstly, most of my knowledge about these transmissions is secondhand from reading extensively about them. So you may encounter someone who knows better but I do try to research things thoroughly before I dink with them.

I would not worry about too much torque through the tranny. What I have read kills them is extended high RPM. And what research I have done to this end usually points to someone using the wrong gear oil. The little bronze bushings don't like GL5. I have been contemplating adding a supplementary oil delivery system to my tranny and possibly a cooler but I haven't worked out any of the fine points yet. I will probably add a temp sensor and drive it a little bit to see if I think this will be beneficial.

Think about it this way. The crawler box which gives you two more even lower gears is implemented upstream of the main four-gear set. This box more than doubles the torque through the remaining gear sets. so... it stands to reason that they are able to handle that torque. Now some people have reported that the crawler box is weak. Looking at it's implementation that seems reasonable, but what they are breaking is just the crawler box and collateral damage from gear debris.

Also, another case in point, hunt around in this forum and you will invariably find a thread about (MSI) billet portal casings. The billet casings are not important to this discussion but the truck that they are showcased on is. That truck has a large v8 and an auto mounted backwards offcenter in the frame behind the drivers side of the cab with a V-drive (or possibly a t-case) running the OE MB tranny. From what I have read he has never had any tranny issues.

I think the real trick to not breaking things is in how you operate it. I find that when I don't have enough power that is when I am most likely to shock-load things because I have to do whatever it is faster or wind the engine up and then meter out force using the clutch which invariably ends in me dumping it suddenly and then... breakage.

Do a few searches, read a bit.

Ultimately, try whatever you are comfortable with.

There is a dual carbed engine on unimog exchange right now, I would sell the 404 and buy a 406 with a diesel already in it and soup it up with a custom header, biger injectors and turn up the injection pump, I went thru the same thing with my 59 404, just live with what it is or sell it, so much more hp aftermarket offered for the MB diesel engines than the 50 year old gas 404 engine. I wasted too much time effort money on trying to remake the 404 into something it is not, a truck to drive to the trail and back. Spend your money on Michlin Xm-47s and and newer truck with 20 speed crawler box, factory power steering and a diesel is my advice. Have you ever got to drive a diesel unimog yet??? How far do you drive to wheel the 404?? My legs got so tired of being cooked and cramped nest to the 404 gas engine on a 64 mile round trip to the ranch and back, plus I had too tall a tire on it and was hell to steer too, newer diesel mog will have a insulated motor cover and power steering too.....

Sounds like you are on the right track. The only issue I foresee is needing a 24V electronic ignition module for that engine (which CAN be ordered); though I suppose you could convert to 12V or continue to use the breaker points. It may also be possible to swap in the complete mog distributor but... I would avoid that if possible.

As to the oil bypass... since the M130 was offered in these trucks I would think that the long-block would largely be the same between the unimog and the sedan. Is it possible the oil bypass issue you are thinking of comes into play when you put the M130 head on the M180 block?

My only question, personally, is: Will this be enough of a power increase for you?

I have driven a 404 with the 2.8l Mercedes engine. The electrics were left 24v and all the bits from the 2.2 l were put on the 2.8, holes all match.
Remember the 404.1 came out with the 2.8 and twin carbs. Power was much improved and hills which were tackled previously in 2 gear could be taken with 3 or 4 gear. Acceleration was also quicker. Why do you want to change heads ?
2.

I can't see myself going out and getting a 406 diesel, mogs aren't very common around here (read expensive). Could bring one in from the States, but that can be a pain with the registration here. I need the truck as a tool not a toy. I've got a perfectly good Landcruiser FJ45, but it's not quite big enough for my purpose.
I thought a hot rod 2.8L might be good enough, and would be the easiest. I've read that someone was working on putting in a Ford 300 in a 404, also I ran across a small v8 in a 404 - awaiting pics of install. I still have to do some measurements, but the door is still very open to ideas.
I've got a 215 Olds engine sitting here with part of a stroker kit assembled, that might work.

Does anyone know if this is true?

"have been told that the bellhousing of the 404 will bolt directly to the OM617 once the Unimog 404 backing plate is taken off of the gas engine, and bolted on the diesel. (Clutch and flywheel are a different story)"

Yes I know that the aftermarket bellhousing rotates the diesel 13 degrees, so the injector pump (or whatever) will clear the drivers side engine cover. But if the diesel will bolt to the mog trans, then the crank centerlines are the same; that would make building a 13 degree adapter a whole lot easier.

There is a thread about that very conversion in this very area!!
If I remember Correctly, you'll have to wade thru the puritans giving the guy hell for not staying "stock" but it looks like you have that end all handled :D As did he, but still ,,,,,,

I found it!

OK, so how much would the injector unit interfer with the gas pedal area? (if the diesel was running straight)

Also, another case in point, hunt around in this forum and you will invariably find a thread about (MSI) billet portal casings. The billet casings are not important to this discussion but the truck that they are showcased on is. That truck has a large v8 and an auto mounted backwards offcenter in the frame behind the drivers side of the cab with a V-drive (or possibly a t-case) running the OE MB tranny. From what I have read he has never had any tranny issues.



he is talking about this thing

YouTube - Extreme 404 Unimog (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fa1Litg3ou0)

So I was thinking this AM, and came to a realization about mog adapters. The guys who make the diesel adapter for the mog 'clocked' the bellhousing where it bolts to the transmission, and that is why the clutch lever arm must be extended when using that gold plated adapter for the diesel install.

When a bellhousing bolts to the transmission it's the front bearing housing on the trans sitting in the matching hole in the bellhousing that centers the engine to the trans, and the bolts just hold it together. With the mog bellhousing been so long, one could use the new engine bellhousing and build a jig that will fit nicely inside the centering hole; the second half of the jig would fit to match the mog transmission bearing housing, then attach two halves of the jig while keeping them concentric. Got a lathe? You can make almost any bellhousing bolt to a mog transmission by building an adaptive ‘mini bellhousing’, while missing that crossmember that is right in the way, and keeping it all within 0.005". Piece if cake, LOL!

It may have all seemed obvious for some, but I work on vehicles as a hobby not a living. Most adapters I’ve seen are made to fit between the new engine and the old bellhousing.

Comments?

I am the guy working on the 300 swap and that is exactly how I am doing it.

I have the removable bell-housing off the ford manual and I machined a tube to press fit into that bell. I then cut a plate to bolt to the back of the bell. I will need no cut a plate to fit the mog tranny then I will cut a couple wooden/plastic alignment discs to keep my tube axially true to the input shaft during assembly. Once I have all the pieces cut and the mog engine off I will tack everything, gusset it, and then weld it. (yes in that order).

I just recently bought my star but I have been kinda busy so not much in the way of progress but I do have pics of the tube, plate, bellhousing and 300 Six.

The only thing I am unsure of for the 300 swap is if I will need to relocate the radiator.

Congrats on your Unimog purchase!

Not to be a Debbie Downer here but you have to remember that Unimogs are considered tractors and aren't meant to be flying down the highway. I'm not a purist in any way but it is what it is......a tractor.

You're also not going to be going any faster with moving up to a 406, in fact you'll be going slower.

I'm OK with going slow. Most of the speed limit here is 50 mph, but sometimes as high as 55 on flat level ground. My issue with the mog is not being able to maintain even 40 mph on a small hill. The hills on the backroads are steeper, and the speed limit is only 40 mph, but I'm down around 10 mph in 2nd gear. Very tractor like, I was calling it 'backhoe slow' at work.
I'm leaning toward the Toyota inline 6 cylinder diesel for the heart transplant. It is very narrow, 24 volt, and only the exhaust is on the driver side. Have to custom locate the turbo, but that is very minor compared to everything else. I found an entire truck with a broken frame for only $1500, and it's only got 190K on the odometer (his wife wants it gone!). After I take what I need, should be able to make some money back by selling the leftovers, like the 5-speed transmission.

Congrats on your Unimog purchase!

Not to be a Debbie Downer here but you have to remember that Unimogs are considered tractors and aren't meant to be flying down the highway. I'm not a purist in any way but it is what it is......a tractor.

You're also not going to be going any faster with moving up to a 406, in fact you'll be going slower.

True.
My mog is much faster than stock 406. Faster on signal start, hills, downhills, flats.

Take the radiator fan off and add an electric fan. This will add couple of hose power at high rpm.

My mog used to run at 90kmph when I didn't have power steering. Now that I have a ps pump, I could only drive around 80kmph. That thing is taking too much of my power.

Yasu

So I went to buy the 6 cylinder Landcruiser, and suddenly the guy wants an extra $700. WTF? So I told him to ' pound sand ' and the search continued. Figured I wanted a truck engine (changable cylinders, etc). I ran across a couple Cummins 4BT and even a 4BTA, but with only the engine it was a little too expensive for my conversion. I almost broke down and bought a 300SD, just to be easy - but where is the fun in that.

I bought a 1989 GMC 4000 (cabover) with an Isuzu 4BD1T engine which has really low miles, so that's what's going in my '66 mog. Found a lot of sites, and many different conversions. The parts for these engines are everywhere, and cheap.

Thanks for the comments

i hope you show us pixs of you getting this done

...I bought a 1989 GMC 4000 (cabover) with an Isuzu 4BD1T engine which has really low miles, so that's what's going in my '66 mog. ...build thread anywhere?

as someone write before, the 404 is a 'end 50 truck. If you want make a '90 truck out of this, you must pay for this option ! If you want more Diesel power buy a 416 ! And if something brocke you get the parts ! All other ways gets real expensive. This is what everybody in Germany in the Mog scene said and i think this is true.
Where did you live ?
Is Gas cheap ?
Then the M110 engine from a S-Class a 280 S or SE will fit. This is the way i would go if the gas is cheap! The S engine is with a Solex carb and the easy job, the E with the Bosch D-Jetronic the more hassle job with the electroics.
In Germany is a guy who drives a 404 with a 560 SE engine from a MB 560 SE for Trails. But no idea how mutch work and money he spends into this project.

I live on the West Coast of Canada up in the mountains, so the 'mog is perfect. I've had a Landcruiser FJ45 for many years, but it's not quite big enough for many jobs I need done.

As for upgrading a 'mog - I've read that the axles can handle a BBC; as for the transmission, my research shows it's the revs that kill them but the tranny can handle the torque. I understand the nothing is 'unbreakable' but I'm not taking the 'mog out rock boucing on the weekend. I'm looking for something realiable that will go up a small hill without shifting down into 2nd gear (thinking 4 speed c/w 2 offroad only gears). As for a 406, Unimog aren't very common around here = expensive. Simply - I cannot afford a 406.

The 4bd1t transplant is happening, I have the engine and accessories in my garage. I'm still working on research and collecting the rest of the parts needed to make everything work together. The Isuzu 4bd1t engine in North America is a 12v starter, but I've found that the 6bd1t engine used in heavy equipment is 24v and has same bolt pattern. Going with a chevy style 24 volt alternator?

The clutch is something I'm not sure exactly what direction to go. The diesel has a large diameter clutch, but the spline count will not fit the 'mog. Research shows that a clutch disc from a 1999-2000 Ford F250 (gas) should fit the transmission input shaft, and has similar diameter to the Isuzu pressure plate. I thought about modify the stock clutch, then it will be the 'weak link' for a margin of safety for more expensive parts.

Planning on getting it in the shop for a May 2011 start date.

Comments?

remember the engine and trany where build for 82 HP, the engine is the M180 low compression ! and not so mutch torque. I don't know the Isuzu engine and i have no idea about the clutch issue. But to mutch power will break the trany !
But this project sound very interested !! :)

I like this someone goes a total different way that we go here. Sound great !
I am shure that you get a lot off issues which must get solved !

Check this german page for diesel conversion with a Mercedes OM 617 turbo engine, there is a english page and french ! page on it.
The OM 617 turbo has 250 nm at 2500 u/min !


http://www.mog404.com/index.html

Manu

The 4bd1t engine is comparable in power to a OM617A, except it's only a four cylinder. I don't have to tilt the engine to make it fit, or buy some expensive bellhousing. I may have to build an exhaust manifold so I can relocate the turbo, and other standard custom install issues that I mentioned earlier. The 4bd1t is a truck engine, so it has changable sleeves for an in-frame rebuild.

Basic specifications:
Cylinders: 4
Injection: direct
Injection pump: Bosch/Zexel type A inline pump on RHS (drivers perspective)
Bore: 102mm
Stroke 118mm
Valves: 8
Inlet manifold seperate casting RHS (drivers perspective).
Exhaust LHS (drivers perspective).
Weight: Approx 350kg turbo. 338kg NA (source Isuzu spec sheet from 1988)
Dimensions NA: 795mm long x 706mm wide x 754mm tall.
Bellhousings: SAE #3 automotive (rare), SAE #3 industrial (rare), Landrover LT85/95 (rare), Isuzu truck pattern (most common).
Starting aids: Glowplugs and excess fuel.
Electrical: 12v in US market, 24v in rest of the world.
Turbochargers: IHI RHB6 (early), Garrett T25 wastegated (early), Garrett T25 freefloat with T3 flange or Garrett T25 wastegated with T3 flange.
Alternator: 12v or 24v depending on market, vacuum pump on rear. Located high on LHS (drivers perspective).
AC Compressor: if fitted below alternator on LHS (drivers perspective).

Power output Turbo: varies but up to 105kw @ approx 3000rpm.
Torque output Turbo: Varies but up to 330Nm @ approx 1800rpm.

Boost: Approx 13psi stock.

So, any idea as to when the build will start?

Racer X

I'm tied up with another project at the moment, but I'm looking for an early May start date. I'm only doing the motor transplant, so hoping to finish in a month or so. Trying to get some of the obvious issues worked out ahead of time so everything should go smooth. LOL