I'm about to order some stuff for my build but thought I'd run my idea past you guys before I make a mistake.

I have a pair of steering 404 Killer Axles that I want to go fully hydraulic front & rear and get a pair of double ended rams.

1) Can I mount a double ended ram above the pinnion ?

The lower suspension link mounts will be just below the axle tubes
The upper suspension link mounts will be about 6 inches above the axle tubes
So there should be room for the rams .
Both pairs of links are triangulated so no need for a panhard bar (which I think is the work of the devil).

2) If using a double ended ram do I need a tie rod ?
I'd like to get rid of it as I can't see the space for it and can't see what use it is when both hubs are turned by the same ram by the same amount.

The reason for this relocation is I'd like to mount the rigs winches to the "front" of the axles so if stuck I pull through the links & put less stress on my chassis.

Thanks for your input.

i would not run a single tie rod with a double ended ram. i would worry there might be some oppsing forces. maybe a single ended ram? are you trying to keep the steering behind the axle? if not blue torch fab and wepsoffraod.com have steering arms

There is no reason you could not mount your steering ram there. As a matter of fact there are several really good reasons to mount it there. Although it may crowd your oil pan. Also keep in mind you will likely need to remove it if/when you service the third member.
If I was doing this swap I would go to a set of high-steer arms as well. One advantage to mounting the cylinder behind the axle is that proper ackerman is achieved with shorter rods because the steering geometry dictates an arm with a joint farther inboard. This leads to fewer issues with rim clearance while turning if you are using a small rim such as a 15 or 16. There is a really great article somewhere on this board detailing how to set up proper ackerman with a steering cylinder like you have.
You should definitely not use both the double ended ram with it's two short tie rods and the factory tie rod. The geometries will almost certainly conflict and cause your steering to bind or at the very least lead to premature wear of: your new cylinder's gland seals, your new heims, your OE tie rod ends and you will likely bend the factory tie rod as well.
One final point of note. In a perfect world... when your steering cylinder has reached the end of its travel your steering knuckle should just be touching it's stop AND the tierod for that side should be in a perfectly straight line with the cylinders rod.
Good luck, sounds like fun.

Am I the only one that had a hard enough time getting up travel (wihout 80 feet of lift) without having a double ended ram essentially higher than the axle tube? With the diff high pinion already, the ram sure will be up there. May not matter much in the rear, but the front wold almost surely have engine clearance issues.

back when I ran a double ended cylinder I had short links to the steering arms, NO 'tie rod'in the conventional sense. mine was in front of the axle though.no reason your idea willnot work.good luck

Am I the only one that had a hard enough time getting up travel (wihout 80 feet of lift) without having a double ended ram essentially higher than the axle tube?

Oh... I am not saying it would fit that way on my rig either. But if I had the room there I would mount it high too.

Oh... I am not saying it would fit that way on my rig either. But if I had the room there I would mount it high too.

Aside from a mid engine rig, I can't think of one that would have room @ both ends. If someone does make it work in a front engine rig, I'd like to see it.

You could probably pull it off if you were running a boxer engine or maybe ran a straight something on it's side like a mule.

Ooh! I got it... dry sump. Yes, that would be cost effective.:D

You could probably pull it off if you were running a boxer engine or maybe ran a straight something on it's side like a mule.

Ooh! I got it... dry sump. Yes, that would be cost effective.:D

I almost went dry sump when I first put the 404's in, more due to the diff. Turned out "easier" to move the diff over 4-1/2 inches. Also fixed a whole bunch of other things (driveshaft, etc...).

Thanks guys
Nice to know I do have some good ideas.

As for clearance.. the axle is pushed forward quite a bit & when I originally thought about it I'm pretty sure I had clearance... hence the idea

So no tie bars just a doube ended 9" ram if I can get one from Polly Performance.

Not to quible about nomenclature but... the two link rods coming off of your double ended ram are tie rods by definition.

Am I the only one that had a hard enough time getting up travel (wihout 80 feet of lift)...

No, you are not!:laughing:

the two link rods coming off of your double ended ram are tie rods by definition.

I understand. Obviously want them.

What I was talking about is the slightly bent rod that (if I'm right, as I only got parts shipped) appears to go under the pinnion: linking both axles.

So I'll be doing away with that when I get a double ended ram that will connect to the steering arms coming off the hubs with short tie rods.

the two link rods coming off of your double ended ram are tie rods by definition.

I understand. Obviously want them.

Yeah... sometimes I over clarify.

A friend of mine was considering using a double ended ram with hard extensions to form a tie rod and then running a little drag link between the cylinder casing and the axle... I talked him out of it. I really think that's for the best.

Is a 9'' piston enough for 404's? seems small. I could be wrong. Im in the middle of installing steering axles on my stuff, and am comming accross these same problems..

That depends on what steering arms you are using. Probably a 9" is just a scosch long but you can internally limit after you have everything mocked up around it.

also keep in mind that length depends on where you mount it.
If you have it right against the housing or on a perch type mount...
8" is too short for either mounting style.
easier to destroke a 10" cylinder IMO.