A bad move by Ford (http://www.autonews.com/news.cms?newsId=3787) :( :(

Thats $hitty.A mid-size diesel would be great.

Originally posted by R O
Thats $hitty.A mid-size diesel would be great.

Great? Why?

Don;t feed me the typical diesel gung-ho drivel... if you think they would be great as smaller V6 engines, I am interested to hear exactly why.


IMHO - There is just no real reason for them in the light vehicle market, especially in trucks.

If you make on and it is a towing beast - then you run into a situation where you you have too much motor and too little truck - and people are grossly overloading 1/2 ton trucks making for a dangerous scenerio.


But really - why is a light diuy diesel such a good deal? It is a fact current light duty gass engines are lasting a LONG time - so the ongevity issues are just not there like when comparing HD gassers and diesels.

Originally posted by DRM


Great? Why?

Don;t feed me the typical diesel gung-ho drivel... if you think they would be great as smaller V6 engines, I am interested to hear exactly why.

I would enjoy a F150 that gets 25 MPG with a towing capacity of ~7000lbs!:rolleyes:

I would like to see Dodge offer a 4bt cummins for the 1/2 tons and dakotas. I think David is right,4.5 powerstroke is too much motor for the 150's. Again I could see a 4bt in them also.

~Nate

Originally posted by Old Scout

I would enjoy a F150 that gets 25 MPG with a towing capacity of ~7000lbs!:rolleyes:

OS nailed it. This is mostly aimed at the commerical guys who are putting LOTS of miles on light duty trucks, but don't have huge towing requirements. I believe there is a market for it. Last I read the plans for this were 2004 or 2005, never heard anything about 2002 model year.

Great? Why?

I'd rather have the option to select than no option at all.

Originally posted by DRM

If you make on and it is a towing beast - then you run into a situation where you you have too much motor and too little truck - and people are grossly overloading 1/2 ton trucks making for a dangerous scenerio.



Hello??? Anyone besides myself seen the numerous commercial and personal 1/2 ton truck owners driving around past the bumpstops with crap stacked so high that it nearly topples over the top of the cab because not everyone can afford, nor needs a 3/4ton or 1 ton truck on a daily basis, sometimes they need that extra hauling capacity on a whim.

Originally posted by Snake47720



Hello??? Anyone besides myself seen the numerous commercial and personal 1/2 ton truck owners driving around past the bumpstops with crap stacked so high that it nearly topples over the top of the cab because not everyone can afford, nor needs a 3/4ton or 1 ton truck on a daily basis, sometimes they need that extra hauling capacity on a whim.

Hello - and safety concerns tell us all those drivers are DANGEROUSLY OVERLOADING these 1/2 ton trucks, and encouraging that by putting in a better pulling motor is a LIABILITY to the truck makers - plain and simple.

If you wanna go with your arguement - then they need to offer a work targeted "light" duty 3/4 ton truck, not a pumped up engine in a 1/2 ton truck whose axles and drivetrain are NOT up to the task of such an engine upgrade.

Originally posted by DRM


Hello - and safety concerns tell us all those drivers are DANGEROUSLY OVERLOADING these 1/2 ton trucks, and encouraging that by putting in a better pulling motor is a LIABILITY to the truck makers - plain and simple.

If you wanna go with your arguement - then they need to offer a work targeted "light" duty 3/4 ton truck, not a pumped up engine in a 1/2 ton truck whose axles and drivetrain are NOT up to the task of such an engine upgrade.

Do you ever use your truck for work?? Many times I have had well over a ton (sometimes closer to 1.5 tons) of junk or rocks or firewood in the back of my 1/2 ton pickup. Not one of those times did I ever feel as though I needed a 3/4 ton truck.

People like you want to limit the abilities of machines to "protect" the idiots of the world at the expese of people who know what they are doing. I think that's just stupid.

I'm with MDA: I'd much rather have the option that have the OEM's (and you) decide my options for me.

Originally posted by DRM
If you wanna go with your arguement - then they need to offer a work targeted "light" duty 3/4 ton truck, not a pumped up engine in a 1/2 ton truck whose axles and drivetrain are NOT up to the task of such an engine upgrade.

David I think you are a little confused. The current 5.4L gas engines that Ford puts out in their half ton trucks are rated at 260hp and 350 lb/ft of torque. They are quite capable of hauling more than a half ton can carry already. Also for your infomation what used to be called the F250 light duty ('97-'98 model years) is still available when ordered as an F150 with the 7700lb payload package. A 4.5L diesel would be a welcome addition to the engine lineup.

I don't know why you hate diesels so much but there are valid uses for diesel engines and many people choose them for reasons other than being cool. It is well past the time when automakers should have been offering more engine options in their North American model lines (as they do in the rest of the world's markets). Here in North America we only get watered down versions of great autombiles that are sold readily in other parts of the world. Freedom of choice definately doesn't exist in the North American auto market, we are force fed whatever will be most profitable and then falsly led to believe that is what is best.

Originally posted by DRM


Great? Why?

Don;t feed me the typical diesel gung-ho drivel... if you think they would be great as smaller V6 engines, I am interested to hear exactly why.


IMHO - There is just no real reason for them in the light vehicle market, especially in trucks.

If you make on and it is a towing beast - then you run into a situation where you you have too much motor and too little truck - and people are grossly overloading 1/2 ton trucks making for a dangerous scenerio.


But really - why is a light diuy diesel such a good deal? It is a fact current light duty gass engines are lasting a LONG time - so the ongevity issues are just not there like when comparing HD gassers and diesels.


If you don't like diesels then why post on this thread.STFU

If only diesels had half the money/research gas engines have had.

Not only that, but think of the swap possibilities! :flipoff2: I think one would look great shoehorned in between the fenders of my S10.

a light duty truck with a towing capacity of 7000 and great gas mileage would be great for my dad who tows his boat all the time and occasinally my junk :flipoff2:

DRM,

Check out this report on V6 diesels by Cummins. http://www.osti.gov/hvt/2000-01-2196.pdf. The issue is to get power AND economy. Yes modern gas engines have good reliability and great power, but they suck for range/fuel economy.

Originally posted by reddwarf
Do you ever use your truck for work?? Many times I have had well over a ton (sometimes closer to 1.5 tons) of junk or rocks or firewood in the back of my 1/2 ton pickup. Not one of those times did I ever feel as though I needed a 3/4 ton truck.

People like you want to limit the abilities of machines to "protect" the idiots of the world at the expese of people who know what they are doing. I think that's just stupid.


And you my friend are exactly why this is a bad idea - overloading a vehicle means dangerous brakes and poor handling.


I am not some liberal who is in favor of gov't regulations on this stuff - but I am all for COMMON SENSE, and when people like you overload a truck like that I sure hope you stay off the roads near me and my family :shaking:


And I don't hate diesels - I see the reasonsing for them for heavy work use, or heavy towing. But a light duty diesel? Someone please epxlain the gains over a midsized gas motor? Gains in gas engine technilogy is getting great mileage, and MUCH longer engine life - quite comparable to smaller diesels. So with such a small margin of gain - what reason is there to switch, and deal with the negatives of diesel (there ARE some negatives you know ;) )

Some people me ;) just like pulling up to the MAN pump with the green handle and feel up. I love pulling out in 3rd and listen to the chatter.
For me it is a coolness factor and that is it. I also want to be able to tow a 30 gooseneck trailer with two trucks on it and not have to stop every 200 miles to put 50 worth of gas in it. And dont say I wouldnt with a V10 cause a guy tried to trade me not to long ago who pulled campers and he said he got 6 to 7 MPG with a V10.
Why offer a miller welder with a desiel engine? Why not if that is what you want go get it. As far as overloading it doesnt matter how much or how little engine you put in a truck somebody will push the limits of it and see how far they can go before they break it.

Stupidity is just something we are gonna have to deal with in everything we do.

Todd

Originally posted by DRM

And I don't hate diesels - I see the reasonsing for them for heavy work use, or heavy towing. But a light duty diesel? Someone please epxlain the gains over a midsized gas motor? Gains in gas engine technilogy is getting great mileage, and MUCH longer engine life - quite comparable to smaller diesels. So with such a small margin of gain - what reason is there to switch, and deal with the negatives of diesel (there ARE some negatives you know ;) )

Hmm, the gains...Lets see...Concidering that all the 3/4T diesels get 24+ milage empty, and what 16-10MPG fully loaded(GVCW), a lodigal guess would be that these V-6's should get in the 30+ empty, and who knows fully loaded (GCVW). Now concidering that my 1/2T gets 16MPG empty, and what, 9MPG at GCVW. It is commical the 16 MPG is concidered good. I myself use my 1/2T anywhere from a passenger car, to medium duty hauling. I would greatly like a little more power and fuel economy, with out having to spend $8000-$10,000 more on a truck that I don't truely need.

I am assuming that you also dislike VW TDI too. Who needs the 55MPG anyways!

It is time people start to push for new innovations, be it diesel, electric, hydrogen, or propane!

I would much rather have a diesel engine in my truck then a gas pot. A well maintained diesel can go well over 500,000 miles and use at least half the fuel over that distance as compared to a gas pot. Most modern gas engines are not as reliable as we are led to believe. There sheer complexity makes them more troublesome then the simple diesel concept.

As for using the vehicle for more then their intended purpose because it has a diesel, thats bull. It doesn't matter what engine is in the vehicle, there is always some stupid idiot out there willing to take the risk. Ever seen a Honda Civic with a mattress on the roof and a dresser in the hatch. No diesel there but still in a pinch the risk is taken.

The North American prespective of diesels is skewed because of a certain 350 diesel conversion that should have bein stillborn but some how made it to the genral public. In Europe diesels sell at a ratio of 4 out of every 10 vehicles sold. The diesels are also extremely advanced and driveable. The North American diesels on the other hand are under developed. (unless you get into the heavy equipment field)

I too,would like to have the option. Ford also had plans on a 2.5L Detriot Diesel inline 4 for the Ranger in 2002. For some reason the engine was dropped and I cann't find any more info on it. This engine is also currently being used in the Jeep Cherokee's on every continent except of course North America.

Originally posted by Toy 4Runner Man

Hmm, the gains...Lets see...Concidering that all the 3/4T diesels get 24+ milage empty, and what 16-10MPG fully loaded(GVCW),

And this would be BS - plain and simple.


Come back when you have facts, not the same old diesel myth talk you heard somewhere :shaking:

From my own research, Dodges are the only diesels getting consistently over 20 mpg unloaded, Powerstrokes just aren't doing it consistently.

24+ mpg? Not a chance on a stock out of the box diesel in any of the current big 3... But if someone has the mileage records to prove it - send 'em on over and I will eat my words :p

overloading a vehicle means dangerous brakes and poor handling.

PLEASE !! Some of the vehicles built by people on this board that are driven on the road scare me more.

Originally posted by DRM
I am not some liberal......

Yeah you are you pinko commie bastard. And you are exactly why internet bulletin boards are a bad idea.

I guess if I were a turn-the-key-and-go jackass like you I wouldn't know to drive according to my load, slowing my speed and anticipating stops and turns, a good idea when hauling ANY amount of load. But I'm not like you.:rolleyes:

David is living in denial, he bought a V-10 when he should of bought the power stroke. He is just trying to justify his mistake by trying make all of us think that gas is the better route to take in a light duty pick up. :rolleyes: :flipoff2:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/uploads/DRM.jpg

Guys - this is simple. I keep seeing claims small diesels are so good - all I am saying is show us the FACTS.

Diesels have their place and uses - nobody can deny that. But I have yet to see anything backing up these claims they are just sooooo good in midsize and lightweight truck applications.

Sure - the US got gun-shy about diesels way-back-when. But that excuse just doesn't fly when it comes to looking at the full picture of why diesels just don't catch on here.


So where are the facts boys, or are your best arguements to attack me personally :laughing: ;)

Originally posted by DRM


So where are the facts boys, or are your best arguements to attack me personally :laughing: ;)

Why do we need to do all the work??
You are the ONLY one taking the gas side. Why not prove to all of us that gas is better!:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Old Scout


Why do we need to do all the work??
You are the ONLY one taking the gas side. Why not prove to all of us that gas is better!:rolleyes:

Exactly my point. All DRM ever wants to do is to go against the grain and when everyone pipes up he wants you to prove why he is wrong.

We don't have to prove why you are wrong, hell, every time you speak up, you are wrong.

The proof you need is right here, the fact that nobody agrees with you. That means that there is a need for it, since so many people are arguing for it.

Originally posted by DRM
Guys - this is simple. I keep seeing claims small diesels are so good - all I am saying is show us the FACTS.

Diesels have their place and uses - nobody can deny that. But I have yet to see anything backing up these claims they are just sooooo good in midsize and lightweight truck applications.

Sure - the US got gun-shy about diesels way-back-when. But that excuse just doesn't fly when it comes to looking at the full picture of why diesels just don't catch on here.


So where are the facts boys, or are your best arguements to attack me personally :laughing: ;)

The only true fact I can put forward is efficiency. The diesel will get better mileage. It may last a little longer than a modern gas engine as well.

The rest is pure preferrence. For example, I like the power characteristics of a diesel better than a gasser, in a truck app.

And, why not have at least the OPTION? After all, it's America.

As far as the cons, well, now that I live here in TN, I can attest to the fact that diesel is as widely available here as it is in Michigan. Which is to say, I'd have no problem whatsoever fueling my truck.:) Also, I don't have a problem fueling diesel trucks. It is my practice to not spill fuel on myself when filling up. I drove a 3/4 CDT as a daily driver for a time, and worked in a corporate headquarters. No problems.

So pros:
Better mileage. (fact, diesel has more BTUs per volume than gas, end of story.)
Longer lasting engine.
Better power characteristics.
Freedom of choice.

Cons:
Cost more initially.

Bring on the OPTION of mid-sized diesels!

And David, if you don't WANT one, don't BUY one. Kinda like that porno channel on cable, eh? ;)

how about two stroke diesels? twice as much power produced per stroke as a 4 stroke, none of the emissions crap of a 2 stroke gasoline engine, and they've got to be turbocharged to start with :cool:

Even your arguement is based on pure speculation. There is no diesel available in the light truck market even to back up your claims. Why is the diesel engine the prime mover in marine, heavy industrial, power gen and heavy haul? Because it is proven, reliable and make more effecient power.

Ok this isn't exactly an even comparison but consider this. A 3300 mile trip in my gas engine Explorer took approximately 300 gallons. A 3100 mile trip in my naturally aspirated diesel F250 took less than 170 gallons and I was pulling a trailer, albeit a small one but it still affected my fuel economy. Speed on both trips was between 75 and 80 mph. Explorer had stock engine, 33's and 4.10 gears, F250 stock engine, 32's and 3.55s. No matter how you slice it that is a huge difference that most people can't afford to ignore.

Thanks to Rusted and Paul for being the only ones capable of actually talking about the issue :p


Rusted - yes, the option would be nice. But performance? I don't think the general public agrees with you on that one ;)


Paul - your Explorer clocks in at 11 mpg - Even my V10 gets beter mileage than that :p

Speedfreak - Toyota has one :D



So if diesels are so much better - why are they not in everything? There has to be more to it than just a old public perception screwup from years back...

Originally posted by DRM


So if diesels are so much better - why are they not in everything? There has to be more to it than just a old public perception screwup from years back...

They are in everything in europe, US just never got into the idea of diesel passenger vehicles. I think the average US citizen hears diesel and thinks of a smoke spewing mack truck.
I've got a 2002 F150 with the heavy half package, and it tows my car trailer just fine, the gas milage is just really poor when towing. I would certainly spring for the diesel option if it meant I could get a consistant 20 MPG.

Originally posted by DRM


So if diesels are so much better - why are they not in everything? There has to be more to it than just a old public perception screwup from years back...

I think are wrong on this one. Look at Europe, diesel haas somewhere around 50% penetration in the market, in everything from the smallest grocery getter to their trucks. I think it is exactly a public perception problem.

I only tow with my vehicle say 1 time a month. But the weekend I tow somewhere for riding it is usually 1500 miles round trip. My rig and trailer are both light so my total load is around 4700-4800 pounds. I'm not complaining about the Vortec 5.7L. It is a great "midsized gas motor"...... BUT, I get around 8-9 mpg when I tow. My towing requirements do not require a 3/4 or 1-ton truck due to the light load.

If I could increase my gas mileage from 9 mpg towing to 15 mpg towing I would be saving roughly $1000/year in fuel. The only complaint I have is my gas mileage when towing. If a light duty diesel will improve this then that is enough "performance" to justify it IMO.

Its been my experience that the 12v CTD gets between 18 and 22 unloaded. (mine averages 21Thats right, a range of 654 miles on a 33 gallon tank, low fuel light pops when there is 3 gallons left and I normally put 30 gallons in it plus or minus a gallon. Mine gets 10 to 17 loaded depending on terrain and speed. (last trip to tellico with aprox 8K was 16.2 average)

The strokes gets a bit less, between 9 and 16 loaded, 14 to 20 empty.

My old 1/2 ton 97 GMC with the 5.7 vortec pulled nice but, averaged 10 loaded and 20 empty. (15 empty with the wild redhead behind the wheel, my wife)

My nemisis, the 97 POS f150, averaged 22 empty and 13 loaded but, wouldn't put a greased string out of a hogs ass. :mad:

The biggest difference between 1/2 ton and 3/4 ton trucks are brakes, frame strenght and load holding ability in the rear. I'm for a light duty diesel truck providing the brakes are up to the task of hauling down the maxium load capacity in a sane manner. Getting the load holding ability aint that difficult with the advances in suspension design over the last 10 years. Metalurgy technology has exceled as well. (why do you think the gassers can get 200K now?) Which means if they wanted to, the big 3 could design a frame that would handle it with ease and still be light enough to get decent mileage.

The lastest crop of gas mills are really cool, make nice power, tow well and get decent milage but, if you want to see where diesels could be, check europe and the benz diesels. There is a market and a solid reson for L/D diesels we haven't caught up in this country. R&D is suffering in the deisel market as is R&D in brake technologly area. There again, look at the high end manufactors and their application of technology that would scare the average us tech outta 5 years growth. Doppler controlled cruise anyone, dry stop, cly cut out and so on just to name a few. However, the downside is money, lots O cash baby to get this stuff out there in a weird us market.


Too many variables, emisions, safety standards, height, builder liability, load rating vs road tax etc.....


Joe

Originally posted by oldjeep
I would certainly spring for the diesel option if it meant I could get a consistant 20 MPG.

Exactly how I feel. I just don't want/need the $40,000 initial cost of the 4x4 1-ton.

Originally posted by rkcrawl


I think are wrong on this one. Look at Europe, diesel haas somewhere around 50% penetration in the market, in everything from the smallest grocery getter to their trucks. I think it is exactly a public perception problem.


Maybe I am wrong - but there are also other factors when comparing overseas vehicles. For one - in many remote places gas quality SUCKS, and a diesel can handle fuel quality issues better. Also - you have fuel costs which are completely different than here in the US...

50% of the market? Seems a littke high to me :confused:

Originally posted by oldjeep
I would certainly spring for the diesel option if it meant I could get a consistant 20 MPG.


Make it 25-30 mpg and then you have something to sell the average consumer on that they are gonna have a hard time ignoring :)

Originally posted by bigdude


Exactly how I feel. I just don't want/need the $40,000 initial cost of the 4x4 1-ton.

And that is part of the problem - when the PSD option is like $6000, you are gonna have a hard time building a quility light duty truck and a midsized diesel and being able to offer it for anything under $30k.

Originally posted by DRM



Maybe I am wrong - but there are also other factors when comparing overseas vehicles. For one - in many remote places gas quality SUCKS, and a diesel can handle fuel quality issues better. Also - you have fuel costs which are completely different than here in the US...

50% of the market? Seems a littke high to me :confused:

50% seems low. Every taxi was diesel last time I was in London - the diesel was so much cheaper it was impractical to run petrol.

I wouldn't factor the costs into it, other than to say that diesel is cheaper in my area than regular gas. I pay $1.29/gallon AND I get 16-17MPG...and the effiency pecentages only go up with higher loads.

Bryan

Originally posted by DRM



Maybe I am wrong - but there are also other factors when comparing overseas vehicles. For one - in many remote places gas quality SUCKS, and a diesel can handle fuel quality issues better. Also - you have fuel costs which are completely different than here in the US...

50% of the market? Seems a littke high to me :confused:

Maybe a little high, but not a lot:

Diesel cars, long regarded in the UK and certain other Northern EU states as noisy, dirty and slow are currently enjoying a meteoric growth in sales throughout Europe. Rising from a mere 2.5% of new registrations in 1973, diesel had reached 22.7% by 1994 and by 2000 had reached 34% (more than one new car in three) of new car sales in Western Europe. Even more surprising is that this trend is set to accelerate - the market is expected to have reached 38-40% diesel share by the end of 2001. Mark Wilkinson reports.

Originally posted by DRM


And that is part of the problem - when the PSD option is like $6000, you are gonna have a hard time building a quility light duty truck and a midsized diesel and being able to offer it for anything under $30k.

My 2002 2wd F150 XLT extended cab
5.4 and 5 speed auto
towing package & heavy half
$20,500

+ 6K for a diesel option(although a smaller diesel should cost less)= $26,500

(4wd on a tow rig/DD - why??? I live in MN and have never turned on the 4wd in a truck on the road)

Originally posted by DRM


And that is part of the problem - when the PSD option is like $6000, you are gonna have a hard time building a quility light duty truck and a midsized diesel and being able to offer it for anything under $30k.

PSD option is 5k. Yeah the 4.5 baby PSD will cost more, but it pays for itself for the target market. Show me a current well equipped 1/2 ton 4x4 that doesn't already push 30k?

Originally posted by DRM



Make it 25-30 mpg and then you have something to sell the average consumer on that they are gonna have a hard time ignoring :)

I was being conservative, my 5.4 gets 18 MPG on average when not towing. It's even got an EEV sticker on the window:eek:

Originally posted by Oxjockey
50% seems low. Every taxi was diesel last time I was in London - the diesel was so much cheaper it was impractical to run petrol.

Ahhh... so it seems fuel price is a major factor, not just deisel performance :p



I wouldn't factor the costs into it, other than to say that diesel is cheaper in my area than regular gas. I pay $1.29/gallon AND I get 16-17MPG...and the effiency pecentages only go up with higher loads.

Bryan


Diesel here where I live in TN fluctuates between about the same as low grade gas and a few cents HIGHER.

Originally posted by DRM


And that is part of the problem - when the PSD option is like $6000, you are gonna have a hard time building a quility light duty truck and a midsized diesel and being able to offer it for anything under $30k.

$30K vs $40K is a big difference to us guys who have to make payments. I mean at a $500 a month payment that's only another 20 months, what's another 20 months of payments :flipoff2: ;)

Originally posted by DRM


Ahhh... so it seems fuel price is a major factor, not just deisel performance :p


This is nothing new. Who said a diesel would perform SO much better (in the V6 application) that it would be worth the additional cost?

Originally posted by DRM

Diesel here where I live in TN fluctuates between about the same as low grade gas and a few cents HIGHER.

Great for you. When I had a similar Dodge RAM before this one with the 5.9L gasser, I *had* to run plus, if I were towing, I *had* to run premium. The new truck is also about 1500-2000 lb heavier. (That truck got 10-11 MPG empty)

But whatever, you don't like it, don't buy it. (I won't, either)

Bryan

Originally posted by DRM


Ahhh... so it seems fuel price is a major factor, not just deisel performance :p





Diesel here where I live in TN fluctuates between about the same as low grade gas and a few cents HIGHER.

No one siad you have to like it. Obviously on this thread you are in the minority. Everything I've read so far targets this at, as I said before, commerical type applications where they don't need the hauling capacity of a 3/4 or 1 ton but put high mileage on the trucks. Think fleet vehicles.

Are there private consumers that could benefit from this option? Yes, I think there are. I fall into the same category as Bigdude, I am towing a 1600lb trailer with a 3500 to 4000lb jeep on it with a 1/2 ton dodge. I have two complaints: fuel mileage when towing and performance in the hills. I wish this option was available NOW, I'll be in the market for a new truck in the next 6 months and it might have been a good solution for MY needs. Do I want to spend 35k on a new trruck, not really, but to get what I want I will probably have too.

They whole aurgement about overloading a 1/2 ton is bunk. It happens now, diesel or not in 1/2, 3/4 and 1 ton trucks. If the owner is going to overload their truck, it doesn't matter what he is driving.

Originally posted by Paul Gagnon
David I think you are a little confused. The current 5.4L gas engines that Ford puts out in their half ton trucks are rated at 260hp and 350 lb/ft of torque. They are quite capable of hauling more than a half ton can carry already. Also for your infomation what used to be called the F250 light duty ('97-'98 model years) is still available when ordered as an F150 with the 7700lb payload package. A 4.5L diesel would be a welcome addition to the engine lineup.
I towed my 4runner out to Moab and back with one of these and it did it, but it didn't do it that well. It was a 2000 or 2001 F150 heavy half with a 7700 lb. payload. A little extra grunt from a diesel would have been appreciated. The 5.4 was marginal at best and under 10 mpg with your foot in the floor going up the slightest incline gets old as well. Granted this is not the best choice for a tow rig, but it was availabe and the only rig I could rent w/out spending twice as much on a true 3/4 ton that still came with the dismal 5.4 :rolleyes: I could care less if they ever make one since I won't be able to afford one anytime soon.

The lastest crop of gas mills are really cool, make nice power, tow well and get decent milage but, if you want to see where diesels could be, check europe and the benz diesels. There is a market and a solid reson for L/D diesels we haven't caught up in this country. R&D is suffering in the deisel market as is R&D in brake technologly area. There again, look at the high end manufactors and their application of technology that would scare the average us tech outta 5 years growth. Doppler controlled cruise anyone, dry stop, cly cut out and so on just to name a few. However, the downside is money, lots O cash baby to get this stuff out there in a weird us market.

We already do have those diesels here.

http://www.daimlerchrysler-vans.com/echora/dcvan/sprinter/sprinter2_popup?alias=CVFTimeForEfficiency

http://www.daimlerchrysler-vans.com/Main/Content/sprinter/09_Passenger_Van/Main_Documents/PV_1_Bild_1.jpg

I have a few stipulations in a half ton truck that I think would add to the marketability of the truck too.

Market it as the heavy duty half ton! If ya'll havent noticed, everyone and their brother thinks they need a 3/4 or 1 ton truck. (INcluding my brother and I :D)

Anyway, make this heavy duty half ton come standard with a "towing package" that would include an extra leaf, heavier shocks in the rear and upgraded 4 wheel disc brakes. Produce it with a small cummins or PS and PUT A GOOD TRANNY IN THERE FOR GOSH SAKES!!!

I think if you threw this together with a couple commercials with sweaty men out towing the competition and then picking up a date and getting vallet parked outside a club you *could* have the beast selling truck on the market.


OH! and make it quiet too! And stylish looks, some kind of middle ground between the half ton fords and 3/4 and 1 ton fords.

Originally posted by TyTy
I have a few stipulations in a half ton truck that I think would add to the marketability of the truck too.

Market it as the heavy duty half ton! If ya'll havent noticed, everyone and their brother thinks they need a 3/4 or 1 ton truck. (INcluding my brother and I :D)

Anyway, make this heavy duty half ton come standard with a "towing package" that would include an extra leaf, heavier shocks in the rear and upgraded 4 wheel disc brakes. Produce it with a small cummins or PS and PUT A GOOD TRANNY IN THERE FOR GOSH SAKES!!!

I think if you threw this together with a couple commercials with sweaty men out towing the competition and then picking up a date and getting vallet parked outside a club you *could* have the beast selling truck on the market.


OH! and make it quiet too! And stylish looks, some kind of middle ground between the half ton fords and 3/4 and 1 ton fords.
I agree on the tranny! The one I had only had 19K and took a while for reverse and drive to engauge :D (damn rentals)

What's with the sweaty man thang :p

By the time they redesign it to be a little differant than the 1/2 and 3/4 tons, it's cost as much as the 3/4 I couldn't afford in the first place :flipoff2:

Originally posted by Bones

I agree on the tranny! The one I had only had 19K and took a while for reverse and drive to engauge :D (damn rentals)

What's with the sweaty man thang :p

By the time they redesign it to be a little differant than the 1/2 and 3/4 tons, it's cost as much as the 3/4 I couldn't afford in the first place :flipoff2:

The sweaty man thing? Ahhh, I um... well it was.... there was this.... and when.... You're stupid.:D

COST! Yes, that would be the main factor here. I honestly think they could produce it for at least as cheap as Chevy with a Z71 package.

In fact Im thinkin more along the lines of a Chevy here, they seem to be the kings of treandy packages why cant they add one more.

"The 1/2 ton ton truck that will make your 1/2 ton it's bitch."

(Yes, I want rights to that:D)

In fact Im thinkin more along the lines of a Chevy here

Then it would just be a overpriced POS! :flipoff2:

See I was thinkin chevy but then I dont think they would have acces to the engine that I would be lookin for so that leaves ford cause cummins would be too loud for this application. It would have to be smooth and quiet.

Gee, come back when I have proof. That is the milage that my father is getting on his 3/4T HD Duramax. He is really anal when is comes to milage on his autos. He monotors every one of them. As far as records, I guess I will have to see, but normally only the long fully loaded trips get logged.


Originally posted by DRM


And this would be BS - plain and simple.


Come back when you have facts, not the same old diesel myth talk you heard somewhere :shaking:

From my own research, Dodges are the only diesels getting consistently over 20 mpg unloaded, Powerstrokes just aren't doing it consistently.

24+ mpg? Not a chance on a stock out of the box diesel in any of the current big 3... But if someone has the mileage records to prove it - send 'em on over and I will eat my words :p

Originally posted by TyTy
See I was thinkin chevy but then I dont think they would have acces to the engine that I would be lookin for so that leaves ford cause cummins would be too loud for this application. It would have to be smooth and quiet.


Psssst. Check out the common rail Cummins - 80% quieter.

pssssst...what is a common rail cummins and why are we wispering:D

80% quieter than what cause Im talkin about MY Dodge 3/4 ton 24 valve:D

Originally posted by TyTy
pssssst...what is a common rail cummins and why are we wispering:D

80% quieter than what cause Im talkin about MY Dodge 3/4 ton 24 valve:D

Pssst, I wanted to let you know that the info is out there. Common rails are in the 2003's & up. Common rail like a gasser EFI, vs your spagetti network of fuel lines.

80% quieter than yours or my 24v Cummins.

OK, the diesel costs more as an option. The torque is lower down the RPM range so can pull a load better. The resale value is higher. The longegivity is more.
Fuel, even if the same price per gallon, as it is here.
Gas, lets say you get 16 MPG @ $1.50 per gallon.
Diesel. lets say you get 20 MPG @ $1.50 per gallon.

Gas engine lasts ~ 250,000 miles
Diesel eng lasts ~ 500,000 miles.

gas eng: 250000/16 = 15625 gallons of fuel
15625 * $1.50 = $23437.50
double that to go 500,000 miles, and add the cost of a rebuilt engine.

diesel eng: 500000/20 = 25000 gallons of fuel
25000 * $1.50 = $37500
half that for 250000 miles.

gas 250000 miles = fuel cost $23,437.50
diesel 250000 miles = fuel cost $18,750.00

So, for the added cost of the diesel eng, ($4000.00) you still have 1/2 the eng life left and about over $600.00 in your pocket. Seems to me like it is a reasonable option.
AND, if you wanted to sell the 2 trucks at 250,000 miles, which ould get you the better resale value? I'll leave that up to your imagination.

DRM ,
you ask why , if it's so popular everywhere else , why not here ?


GOOD question . I too have asked this ever since I spent a long time traveling around the world and noticed diesels are everywhere . Some of it does have to do with poor fuel quality available ( ie. Borneo , PNG , etc. ) , but most doesn't ( Europe , Australia ) .
I've asked many a dealer and techs , teachers and oil companies executives , and have gotten many different responces .

My conclusions , the reasons are numerous !
1) diesels , especially in colder climates as such here , in Canada , require a little more work/thought then a gas fueled motor. In general , people are becoming a little more lazy and don't like the fuss of glow plugs , etc . Also , diesels do need to warm up a little longer on cold days more then a gas motor does . And for some ,thats too much work .

2) Roads . Typical North American roads are built better , or for a higher speed . In Europe say , they built roads that were once just goat trails and follow the landscapes and houses . Torque plays a bigger part in everyday driving , and most vehicles are also stick-shifts . More control .

3) WIMMEN . A huge percent of vehicle buying population in the last twenty years has shifted from a primarily male dominant market to a more balanced male/female market ( Thats why most Saturn commercials are geared for the ladies , and it worked ! ) . Now this is important for two reasons . Diesels are seen or percieved to be masculine.ts a guy , macho thing . Power , smoke , YEAH BABY . And , women want less fuss with things . Pulling up to the wrong pump can be a very , very bad thing . They don't want to have to think about looking for a diesel pump every time they need fuel . Guys just don't care .

4) Average travelling distances , and fuel ecocnomy also play a big role , as do the wholesalers of fuel (Retailer have to spend significant amount more to rig up a station to sell diesel .) For countries like Canada or Australia , with far less people and huge spaces , we tend to drive more per trip . Fuel economy plays bigger roles . In Oz , because of their more moderate climate , the better rated fuel economy of a diesel motor , and relative ease of maintenance , make it the perferred choice . While up here , it balances out , but barely ( the money we save on average is put into letting them warm up when it's cold out .)

These are just some of the reasons , my observations , and FYI , I too am pissed that we don't have more options . I feel we should have as many choices available to us as ARE available . I often wanted to drive back home one of the spectacular vehicles I've driven in both Central and South America ( Toyota diesels rock ) or have even dreamed about the awesome 4.2 turbo Toyota Landcruisers I've driven in Oz .Wow , a real'beut mate .

One final thing . I truely beleive there is a market for a smaller and efficent diesel . Although , I have been thoroghly enjoying the one upmanship that the big three domestic automakers have been going thru since Dodges release of the BIG CUMMINS . Have at'er boys . Hope the numbers keep climbing ( current winner @ 305hp/555ftlb of T -- Dodge ! , but for how long ??? Till the 6.0 FORD ? ..... )
Rob

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Originally posted by TyTy
I have a few stipulations in a half ton truck that I think would add to the marketability of the truck too.

Market it as the heavy duty half ton! If ya'll havent noticed, everyone and their brother thinks they need a 3/4 or 1 ton truck.
<snip>


ummmm.... this *has* been done dodge did it all the time, i had an old D150 dodge. 318 NP435 (granny 4speed) D60 semi floater rear, kinda springs.

I drove it to NY and back to haul some equipment and go 22mpg doing 80 with OUT overdrive. The granny gear allow for a lower (taller) gear... Not bad for a $500 truck...wish i had kept it...

Now im a happy 01' F250 PSD owner, I wanted a diesel truck PERIOD. Loud noise, slow take offs etc... If i could have bought a smaller F150 size truck with a diesel i would have.... But the cost of these things is rediculous. I paid 29k for my truck and there were cushy cozy f150s goign for 35k and up..... I wanted a work truck. Chrysler worked me over on my TJ so they lost my business....

-my

DRM take a look.


http://www.ford.com.ar/prod_rangerdoble.asp - (South America)

http://www.ford.at/ - (Germany - Not a direct link, but it's there!)

http://www.ford.com.ph/ranger/features.asp?sectag=vehicle&car_id=21&vehiclesec=features - (Phillipines)\

http://www.fordworldwide.com/wdmo/country.html?cty=KWT - (Kuwait)

http://www.ford.co.za/ (Again, not a direct link, but at least it's in English! - South Africa)

http://www.fordworldwide.com/wdmo/country.html?cty=BMU - (Bermuda)


All those countries and plenty more sell the Rangers with a diesal. If it's a Ranger outside of the US, it has an avaliable diesal.

So there are some FACTS just like you wanted. So why no light trucks with diesals here? Hell if I know. I'd like one!!

Looking through those sites I count FIVE different diesel four cylinders.

2.5 turbo
2.5 NA
2.6 NA?
2.8 power stroke
2.9 NA

Hey Rocket-rob, climate isn't that big a problem with diesels as much. There are cloud point additives put into the diesel that make it more resistant to cold temperatures. And as for warm up time, If you don't drive a diesel and load it up, it will never warm up. Glow plugs are no more a hassle then spark plugs and you still don't have leads, cap rotor, coil or ignition module to concern your self with.

Fuel quality is important depending on the type of fuel delivery system being used. A precup diesel can run low grade fuel with little proplem but the new direct injection and common rail systems require high grade fuel. It has alot to do with the clearances of the pumping elements and injector nozzles. The tighter the clearances the higher the grade of fuel needed.

If you go to a third world country the diesels are ancient and smokie, but a typical indutrial country, emissions laws require better opacity rating. Diesels aren't smokers unless you are not taking basic care of the engine. A typical engine can go unserviced for years and still run strong and effieceintly though.

Noise is also an issue that people seem to hang on when it comes to diesels. This isn't a big concern now with concepts like rate shaping injection methods. Listen to a new VW Jette TDI, it sounds just like a gaspot. Even the Duramax is very quiet. Sure the old Powerstroke and the Isuzus are noisy but the new Powerstrokes are quite a bit quieter with a simple pre-ignition charge that absorbs the clatter of the diesel combustion cycle.

Originally posted by DRM
Paul - your Explorer clocks in at 11 mpg - Even my V10 gets better mileage than that :p

Yeah but I'm sure if you drove with me you'd understand, oughta replace my gas pedal with a toggle switch. I hate losing speed when I go up hills on the highway so it's hammer down until I reach the top. That trip was to Truckhaven from Calgary and there be plenty o' big hills along I-15 through Montana, Idaho and the bottom part of Utah. :D




In reality the engine has extremely little to do with how heavy a given owner will load their truck. A half ton is a half ton is a half ton whether it has a stock 6 cylinder or a swapped in freaky earth shattering big block. There are more 350, 351 and 360 powered 3/4 ton and 1 tons out there than you can shake a stick at. But, that doesn't make them any less capable of hauling the weight it just means the engine works harder to get the job done. A mid-sized diesel will not make half tons any more capable but it would go a long way to making them more efficient.

I can't believe no one has mentioned the obvious fact that Diesels are also more efficient and produce less polution (per comparitive power outputs to a gas motor). I'm glad that Diesels are finally starting to catch on here in the U.S., the more I learn about them the more I like them....I guess thats why I'm going to school to learn about them now. I know that not everyone is going to be one over becuase of technical facts and data, but atleast give us the option to choose.

Also, as Diesels become more popular there will be more options of engines, and plenty of more upgrages. Becuase Diesel has more BTU's than gas it can produce more energy easier. Not to mention the fact that you can't run them too lean! The more air to cram into them the more power you are going to make.

Click here to view a 318 cubic inch motor that can produce over 800 hp and 1600 lb feet of torque, can run a 9.27 in the 1/4 mile, and has an all stock short block! (oh yea, its a Diesel) (http://www.competitionplus.com/04_24_2002/diesel_doug.html)

quote from article in link above:
"Between the time I start the engine in the pits, drive to the line, make a pass and get back to the pits, I use about a quart and a half of fuel." How's that for efficiency? Doring went on to say, "this kind of efficiency is the nature of a diesel engine. Diesel fuel contains more energy than gasoline and a diesel is more efficient because it doesn't send all of its heat out the tail pipe, it uses it in the combustion." :eek:

Now tell me, why is it that we should not even off an engine that is more efficient, produces less distructive emmisions, and gets even slightly better fuel miliage?
I personally would at least like the option....but this is just my $.o2!

Originally posted by DRM



And you my friend are exactly why this is a bad idea - overloading a vehicle means dangerous brakes and poor handling.



Uhhh David? Isn't this the exact same thing I hear people saying about folks who install larger than stock tires with aggressive treads on their truck??

Originally posted by DRM


And this would be BS - plain and simple.


Come back when you have facts, not the same old diesel myth talk you heard somewhere :shaking:

From my own research, Dodges are the only diesels getting consistently over 20 mpg unloaded, Powerstrokes just aren't doing it consistently.

24+ mpg? Not a chance on a stock out of the box diesel in any of the current big 3... But if someone has the mileage records to prove it - send 'em on over and I will eat my words :p

mine is an older 7.3IDI turbo (pre powerstroke) and I'll admit it isn't in the mid twenties for mileage, I consistently get 18-19 empty at 65-70mph on the hiway, but where a diesel is really nice is when I strap the 28' gooseneck on the back and load up two trucks (about 21-22,000 GCW), I still average 14-15 at the same speeds, where when my friend borrowed my trailer to pull a lighter load (1 truck) with his big block chevy, he averaged 3-4 MPG in the same towing area...

DRM asked for milage figures for a light Duty Deisel. This is what I got from an 85 Ford Escort Diesel. City between 45 and 48 mpg Highway was around 52 mpg. I no longer have my Logs as they went with the car when my dad sold it. yea I know its not a Truck but consider the gas Escorts were getting around 20 mpg or so then.