Howz this for 'outside the box' ??
recent brain fart came up with this.........
1)take regular rotation front D60 & rear D60
2)run then both upside down (front: spin knuckles-rear: dont matter if swap to disks) therefore BOTH being HP
3)Use marine style engine (counter rotating) to mate to regular drivetrain (ie. marine 350+SM465).

The engine rotation would compensate for the diffs running backwards. Don't think it would affect a standard transmision(syncros are are not directional), Auto's would create some grief. I think axle lubrication would be the only thing holding this thought back. Both axles would become high pinion, with regular gear sets.
Haven't put any real thought into this, but it works on paper.
Any thoughts as to what other prob.s one might have??

once you get the lubrication figured out there shouldn't be many other problems, except the R&P and maybe the tranny won't be as strong. I think tranny gears are cut so as to be strongest when rotating normally (unless you got one of the old trannies with straight cut gears). but I don't think it should be a huge problem kinda like a HP D60 in the rear the strength of the R&P isn't a huge problem. I think with a mildy built engine it would be ok. Oh and it would have to be in a pre-smog vehicle to be 50 state legal probably.

Damn good thinking...I like the creativity. But wouldn't the ball joints be upside down? Let me think...they would...wouldn't they? Flip the knuckle...Hmmm...Don't know. Anyhoo...This could be fixed too...

The water pump and the fan will need some research. Boat engines don't have or use automotive style pump.

this is sort of what the one guy did..his rig has been on hear before.. they call it the beast or something.. looked sort of like a log skidder.. anyways he flipped 2 front 44 for front and rear.. but the way he made up for the going backwards was he put the motor tranny and cases in the rig backwards.. Worked pretty damn good i must say.. He ran 44's and it had a pto coming out the back for a prop.. it cruzed folsom lake know problem I will see if I can drum up a picture of it... He also tryied to get into top truck challenge with it..

Spin the moter backwards. Special bump stick, different fan, reverese the polarity on the starter. It could happen.
Naw, the end doen't justify the means.

That VW motored comp. buggy built by Nelson and Nelson works that way though. The 9"ers are upside down. The motor spins the odd way.

Originally posted by Old Scout
The water pump and the fan will need some research. Boat engines don't have or use automotive style pump. Most do. They just have an extra pump for raw water. You won't need the extra pump or the brackets for it.

Originally posted by JR
That VW motored comp. buggy built by Nelson and Nelson works that way though. The 9"ers are upside down. The motor spins the odd way.

The motor spins the right way but it is mounted in back ;)

Cool idea! Two questions:

[list=1]
I've always known that marine engines run in the opposite direction, but why do they do that?
What exactly makes the marine engine run in the other direction? Is it timing, or a different crank and cam, or what? Could a regular engine be made to run the other way?
Finally, why wouldn't it work with an auto tranny?
[/list=1]

J. J.

PS: Sorry if these are stoopid questions.

Originally posted by patooyee
Cool idea! Two questions:

[list=1]
I've always known that marine engines run in the opposite direction, but why do they do that?
They make marine engines that run either way. The reason for counter-rotating engines is to the props will counter act each others action and make it easier to go in a dtraiight line. i have never seen a 2 engined inboard boat that did nort have counter rotating engines. Single inboard boats generally have standard rotation engines.

What exactly makes the marine engine run in the other direction? Is it timing, or a different crank and cam, or what? Could a regular engine be made to run the other way?
On the Cat engines, all we do is turn the cam so it goes in the other way and swap the front & rear gear trains. As for the gas engines, I believe that the cam needs to be changed along w/ a reverse rotation starter.

Finally, why wouldn't it work with an auto tranny?
[/list=1]
The torque convertor would be going the wrong way for it to transfer the fluid motion.
J. J.

PS: Sorry if these are stoopid questions.

You can run a standard rotation engine in reverse rotation simply by starting it in reverse rotation... Now Timing must be tweeked some, But basicly if you take your rig and let roll start it in reverse, it will start in reverse rotation.. Been there done that and it was wierd, 4 reverse gears and 1 forward .

Hmm... that's kooky! I might have to try that this afternoon just for shits and giggles!

This is kinda what I was thinkin of doing, only using a industrial reversing gearbox that I saw at the junkyard a year ago. The advantage of the revering box is that it has 4 forward and 4 reverse gears (ssuming reverse is the same as first). These boxes are found in 40's and 50's Pettiebones(sp?) They are used behind a t98 Oiling wise, I think you would have to do more than just run a higher oil level, but I could be wrong. As far as the reverse rotation marine engines go, I have a 283 that is like that and the only difference that I know of is cam and starter.

Originally posted by ItsaCJ6
You can run a standard rotation engine in reverse rotation simply by starting it in reverse rotation... Now Timing must be tweeked some, But basicly if you take your rig and let roll start it in reverse, it will start in reverse rotation.. Been there done that and it was wierd, 4 reverse gears and 1 forward .

Unless you've got a 2 stroke rig, I'm calling bullshit.

Intake-->Exhaust-->(Power)-->Compression-->Whatman? :flipoff2:


Pete:flipoff2:

I think the fan would be an easy fix for a reverse rotation or a rear-mounted engine.
Use an electric fan.
If the motor is in the rear, chances are you will want to mount the radiator up front any way.
Or you could put the radiator out back like a trophy truck.

I still can't figure out why oiling would be a problem for an axle upside-down.

This has been fun to think about during a very bad day at work.
:D

Originally posted by ItsaCJ6
You can run a standard rotation engine in reverse rotation simply by starting it in reverse rotation... Now Timing must be tweeked some, But basicly if you take your rig and let roll start it in reverse, it will start in reverse rotation.. Been there done that and it was wierd, 4 reverse gears and 1 forward .

I can't believe you just wrote that. :laughing:

Let's see here. The exhaust valve opens and sucks air through the exhaust manifold, it closes and a mixture of staright air is compressed, the ignition fires, nothing happens, and the piston uncompresses the air, the intake valve opens and your fuel is forced up and out of the intake manifold...

Yeah, that'd work alright. :flipoff2:

Originally posted by ItsaCJ6
You can run a standard rotation engine in reverse rotation simply by starting it in reverse rotation... Now Timing must be tweeked some, But basicly if you take your rig and let roll start it in reverse, it will start in reverse rotation.. Been there done that and it was wierd, 4 reverse gears and 1 forward .
?!?!WTF!?!?:confused:
the intake stroke would now be sucking fron the exhaust and vise versa.
Works with 2 strokes tho
buddy stalled goin up hill, let clutch out to slow down goin backwards, he was confused is shit when it started :D

As for water pump, they are available
As for fan, use a Ford reverse rotation fan
As for starter, boats would need them to, so they're available.
The Tranny might pose a couple problems, but if its an NP435/SM420/ect. they should take the abuse of a small block runnin backwards right?

Hmm... that's kooky! I might have to try that this afternoon just for shits and giggles!
Video tape it, or take some pic.s
I'm sure alot of people would enjoy watching it ;)
remember, if at first you dont succeed, GO FASTER!!

Originally posted by JR
reverese the polarity on the starter. .

NOPE! The bendex drive only goes one way! You need a reverse rotation Bendix.

Not all marine engines are reverse rotation. Only ones for the second engine in dual engine setups to counteract torque. Also, all of the clearances are different in a marine engine. They don't last long in a non-marine enviroment as they are designed to run much cooler than a truck engine.

Originally posted by ItsaCJ6
You can run a standard rotation engine in reverse rotation simply by starting it in reverse rotation... Now Timing must be tweeked some, But basicly if you take your rig and let roll start it in reverse, it will start in reverse rotation.. Been there done that and it was wierd, 4 reverse gears and 1 forward .

Your a dumb ass!
Try spinning your distributor backwards and see how well the advance works!

Originally posted by zags
Not all marine engines are reverse rotation. Only ones for the second engine in dual engine setups to counteract torque. Also, all of the clearances are different in a marine engine. They don't last long in a non-marine enviroment as they are designed to run much cooler than a truck engine.

I have built many marine engines and this is not ture! About 90% of single engine inboard boats a RR!

Originally posted by Randall Edge
Most do. They just have an extra pump for raw water. You won't need the extra pump or the brackets for it.

The circulation marine pump has a much different impeller than an automotive application.

The water pump should be no problem, various later models w/serpentine belts ran RR water pumps.

Also, FWIW, both of the 4.3 Chevy I/O boats we've owned were standard rotation.

Pete

Originally posted by zags
Also, all of the clearances are different in a marine engine. They don't last long in a non-marine enviroment as they are designed to run much cooler than a truck engine.
How can the clearances be different?? Its still the same motor, just spinnin backwards.:rolleyes:
As for the 'non-marine' environment:
how bout ya take a regular 350
use marine style RR bump stick (camshaft for the laimans)
use marine style distributor, starter, & water pump.
now its a 'regular' motor, runnin backwards.

OR ....... could I just run upside down diffs, and use just the reverse rot starter since it'll run backwards anyways :DLMAO:D

cool idea and everything, but i really have to ask why?

in my opinion the grief that you will go through to make it work is well worth the cost of having high pinion front and rear 60s made.

the cost difference in a front axle is give or take $200

and all you have to do for the rear is buy a high pinion pig and have regular rear 60 tubes pressed into it.

Originally posted by pcorssmit
Also, FWIW, both of the 4.3 Chevy I/O boats we've owned were standard rotation.

Pete

A I/O is much different than a inboard.

Is there such thing as a RR torque converter?

J. J.

Originally posted by Old Scout


I have built many marine engines and this is not ture! About 90% of single engine inboard boats a RR!

I stand corrected.
All of the single engine I/O boats have owned or worked on were standard rotation. :confused: hmm.... So why are they R.R.?

Originally posted by Old Scout


The circulation marine pump has a much different impeller than an automotive application.
Different how?? for corrosion resistance?
My ol' man has a 4.3L inboard/outboard. we put a regular water pump(automotive) on it cause it was WAY fuckin cheaper than a 'marine' one. Works great, no problems. Guts looked the same, I think the pulley mount was a lil shorter, that was it.

You idiots! Ban the next guy that confuses his 4.3 inboard/outboard mercruiser with a reverse rotation inboard 350.

Hey old scout, ever messed around with jet boat stuff?

Originally posted by MR4WD
You idiots! Ban the next guy that confuses his 4.3 inboard/outboard mercruiser with a reverse rotation inboard 350.

Hey old scout, ever messed around with jet boat stuff?

how about we ban you?

Originally posted by zags


I stand corrected.
All of the single engine I/O boats have owned or worked on were standard rotation. :confused: hmm.... So why are they R.R.?

So they have the steering wheel on the correct side. Inboards only back in one direction and due to prop torque the weight must be on the opposite side. BTW Most old v-drive drag boats are on the other side because there are few hi po RR camshafts.

Originally posted by MR4WD
You idiots! Ban the next guy that confuses his 4.3 inboard/outboard mercruiser with a reverse rotation inboard 350.

Hey old scout, ever messed around with jet boat stuff?
Way to flag the 'I'm a tard' flag.:flipoff2:
Who confused his 4.3 inboard/outboard mercruiser with a reverse rotation inboard 350?? The 4.3 comments were 'marine' references. And nobody confused a 4.3 for a 350.
Thanx for adding the 'little' knowledge you thought you should share, next time get a second opinion first.

Confused as to how 'Jet boats' apply to this application........

and you wanted who banned??:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Originally posted by 9V
cool idea and everything, but i really have to ask why?

in my opinion the grief that you will go through to make it work is well worth the cost of having high pinion front and rear 60s made.

the cost difference in a front axle is give or take $200

and all you have to do for the rear is buy a high pinion pig and have regular rear 60 tubes pressed into it.

Whats the cost of front & rear D60's made custom??
I'm talkin stock diffs flipped over with a lil knuckle work.
The only grief would be in the diff lubrication(I think)
Cost for HP D60's are about 15/1800bucks(Can.) regular D60's go for 300bucks(mine:D), that would leave about 1500bucks ahead of the game to throw else were(just on front end), rear stays stock(save $$ on re-tubing, and on another HP D60), and if your building a motor anyways, whats the diff on a couple marine parts??
If the Trans. could handle small block power going into it reversed, I think its a pretty decent idea.
Figuring I've overlooked something I thought I'ld let the 'Pros' tear my lil dream apart :D :flipoff2: :D

Originally posted by ItsaCJ6
You can run a standard rotation engine in reverse rotation simply by starting it in reverse rotation... Now Timing must be tweeked some, But basicly if you take your rig and let roll start it in reverse, it will start in reverse rotation.. Been there done that and it was wierd, 4 reverse gears and 1 forward .

this can happen....but not from roll starting in reverse. happens when the engine is running and for instance you drive up a bank to gain turn around room and don't get the clutch in before rolling back while in a foward gear.(was that a run on sentence?):D

i have done it,detroit diesel.clark 5 speed.became 5 in reverse one foward. enough to send you into panic mode until you kill the motor,refire and all is well again.

real world experience......take it or leave it.

Originally posted by Rogue Bronco

Way to flag the 'I'm a tard' flag.:flipoff2:
Who confused his 4.3 inboard/outboard mercruiser with a reverse rotation inboard 350?? The 4.3 comments were 'marine' references. And nobody confused a 4.3 for a 350.
Thanx for adding the 'little' knowledge you thought you should share, next time get a second opinion first.

Confused as to how 'Jet boats' apply to this application........

and you wanted who banned??:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Hey, you're the guy that wants to run a tranny and diffs backwards, not me. There's thinking outside of the box, and then there's being an extreme left wingist. Gears are run in a certain direction for a reason, hence, reverse cut gearsets are not intended for standard rotation diffs. You'd be loading up the coast side, not the drive side, which is a big no-bo. I'm sure Camo, or steve gerstener could go into detail about how much of a lousy idea this is, but I'll let you weed yourself out of the 4x4 gene pool on your own terms..

My comments were directed to the morons who thought that their inboard outboard marine small blocks and 6's were the exact same as something oh, say, in an inboard inboard propulsion/drive system.

For the other dweeb who figures Marine engines are of a lousier breed than automotive, better start researching before posting, hmm?

What about Jet boats you ask?I can't think of many "car" engines designed to run full throttle in the 4000-5000 range under 100 percent load and do it for 500 hours out of the box. Can you? All marine engines I can think of are designed specificly with that in fore thought.

Take me neighbor for example, who runs a 455 in his jet boat. He originally had it in a cutlass that would burn 12's and 13's all day long. A very stout mondello motor that pushes 500 horse and 600 pounds of torque without fail. It got SOO hot, even with all of the high zoot marine cooling junk, deep sump oil cooled pans, baffles and windage trays that it melted the bottom out of the Weiand intake plenum, but managed to stay at 180 degrees on the t-stat. That's what running an engine at full bore not designed for marine use does. He then ran a marine 502 in the same context for a season, (which worked out to about 500 hours before complete rebuild) He's now running a REVERSE rotation Mondello "marine" 455 through a gearbox similar to a quick change rear end. The Impeller still throws water in same direction, but now he's able to have variable gearsets in compact and stout 2 gear only box. As a rule of thumb, in the most efficient watercraft, it would take 4 times the power to propel it at an equal speed of the average car (or pickup). 7 times is the rule for jetboats, and 9 times is that of an outboard. I'm not saying it'd take 400 horse to make your canoe go 100 MPH, when your honda accord does it at 100 horse, I'm saying all things being equal.

Now, I'll understand if you want to hop back onto I'm an idiot and look at my stupid ideas soapbox, since everybody's entitled to a wrong opinion. I just don't feel the need to show it off....

Originally posted by larryboy


this can happen....but not from roll starting in reverse. happens when the engine is running and for instance you drive up a bank to gain turn around room and don't get the clutch in before rolling back while in a foward gear.(was that a run on sentence?):D

i have done it,detroit diesel.clark 5 speed.became 5 in reverse one foward. enough to send you into panic mode until you kill the motor,refire and all is well again.

real world experience......take it or leave it.

Let's see. A detroit diesel's a what? A 2 stroke? Oh yeah, that's right. It's possible in a 2 stroke, not a 4 stroke.

Originally posted by MR4WD
[B

Take me neighbor for example. [/B]


are you a british moron or just a regular one??

Originally posted by MR4WD


Let's see. A detroit diesel's a what? A 2 stroke? Oh yeah, that's right. It's possible in a 2 stroke, not a 4 stroke.


why don't you take your attitude and go back to chit chat.

Originally posted by MR4WD


Hey, you're the guy that wants to run a tranny and diffs backwards, not me. There's thinking outside of the box, and then there's being an extreme left wingist. Gears are run in a certain direction for a reason, hence, reverse cut gearsets are not intended for standard rotation diffs. You'd be loading up the coast side, not the drive side, which is a big no-bo. I'm sure Camo, or steve gerstener could go into detail about how much of a lousy idea this is, but I'll let you weed yourself out of the 4x4 gene pool on your own terms..
This is valid. but under a light wieght rig the HP D60's seem to hold up fine. So I'm thinkin this is not realy any different. Less than 'ideal' but acceptable. Oiling would be a bigger issue IMO. yes/no?
Originally posted by MR4WD
My comments were directed to the morons who thought that their inboard outboard marine small blocks and 6's were the exact same as something oh, say, in an inboard inboard propulsion/drive system.

For the other dweeb who figures Marine engines are of a lousier breed than automotive, better start researching before posting, hmm?
Valid, understood, agreed, but not exactly on topic........
Originally posted by MR4WD
What about Jet boats you ask?I can't think of many "car" engines designed to run full throttle in the 4000-5000 range under 100 percent load and do it for 500 hours out of the box. Can you? All marine engines I can think of are designed specificly with that in fore thought.
maybe I shoulda said "what about jet boats pertains to 4x4in?". I agree they are smokin' FOR A BOAT
Originally posted by MR4WD

Take me neighbor for example, who runs a 455 in his jet boat. He originally had it in a cutlass that would burn 12's and 13's all day long. A very stout mondello motor that pushes 500 horse and 600 pounds of torque without fail. It got SOO hot, even with all of the high zoot marine cooling junk, deep sump oil cooled pans, baffles and windage trays that it melted the bottom out of the Weiand intake plenum, but managed to stay at 180 degrees on the t-stat. That's what running an engine at full bore not designed for marine use does. He then ran a marine 502 in the same context for a season, (which worked out to about 500 hours before complete rebuild) He's now running a REVERSE rotation Mondello "marine" 455 through a gearbox similar to a quick change rear end. The Impeller still throws water in same direction, but now he's able to have variable gearsets in compact and stout 2 gear only box. As a rule of thumb, in the most efficient watercraft, it would take 4 times the power to propel it at an equal speed of the average car (or pickup). 7 times is the rule for jetboats, and 9 times is that of an outboard. I'm not saying it'd take 400 horse to make your canoe go 100 MPH, when your honda accord does it at 100 horse, I'm saying all things being equal.
:zzz: For a boat, GREAT, for a truck, it would suck!
Well built motors 'for their intended application'.

Originally posted by MR4WD
Now, I'll understand if you want to hop back onto I'm an idiot and look at my stupid ideas soapbox, since everybody's entitled to a wrong opinion. I just don't feel the need to show it off....
So from this whole post I got:
"Its bad to run diff backwards." & "boat motors are GREAT in boats & fast cars".
I'm more curious as to
1)any reasons why a RR engine would not work in a truck
2)how the tranny will like working backwards from regular.
and
3)Any ways around diff oiling(or is it a non-issue?)

Originally posted by Rogue Bronco

Different how?? for corrosion resistance?
My ol' man has a 4.3L inboard/outboard. we put a regular water pump(automotive) on it cause it was WAY fuckin cheaper than a 'marine' one. Works great, no problems. Guts looked the same, I think the pulley mount was a lil shorter, that was it.

A boat's cooling system is also a heating system. The water is first sent to the exhaust manifolds to be heated up, then to the motor and then finnaly out the exhaust. The marine pump is higher pressure but lower flow. You need some contact time to heat the water in the exhaust manifoilds and and lots of pressure to move it thru all the extra hoses. A car pump can work on some boats in some lakes/rivers, but try to use one on a lake like Tahoe and your engine may never warm up.

Good piont, never thought of flow vs. pressuse compaired to stock.
Do 350's ever come with RR water pumps(like '86+ 5.0L H.O.)??
Chev must use a serpentine set-up on trucks & cars, prob with a RR WP?

Originally posted by Rogue Bronco

How can the clearances be different?? Its still the same motor, just spinnin backwards.:rolleyes:
As for the 'non-marine' environment:
how bout ya take a regular 350
use marine style RR bump stick (camshaft for the laimans)
use marine style distributor, starter, & water pump.
now its a 'regular' motor, runnin backwards.

OR ....... could I just run upside down diffs, and use just the reverse rot starter since it'll run backwards anyways :DLMAO:D

There are a few un-known differences that will crop up. Many RR dizzys have a special thrust cone on them. The dizzy on a standard rotation engine pulls it's self into the engine due to it angle cut on the gears. On a RR ,the dizzy tries to push it's self out of the engine.

There are small cuts on the crankshaft near the seals. The cuts on a standard crank spinning backwards will push oil into the seal rather than move it away.

On the clearances issue, a typical boat will spend most of it's life under full load at 3-4k RPMs That is like you always driving your car around at 90-100 mph! A marine engine is very well built and always has top quality internal components. using forged pistons and end gaping there own rings is strange to some out of the box engine builders. .

Originally posted by Rogue Bronco
Good piont, never thought of flow vs. pressuse compaired to stock.
Do 350's ever come with RR water pumps(like '86+ 5.0L H.O.)??
Chev must use a serpentine set-up on trucks & cars, prob with a RR WP?

I'm not a chevy guy. I have been messing with Chrysler Marine 392s 440s and 426s for many years. I took a Chrysler Marine RR 440 and made it go standard rotation and it wasn't fun but it works.


Here is one for the brain trust
It's a two gear cam drive. The crank goes RR and the cam goes standard rotation!

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/uploads/440gears.jpg

Originally posted by MR4WD

Hey old scout, ever messed around with jet boat stuff?

I'm not a pump kind of guy, I do props only, on a straight or V-drive. Call me old fashion.

Originally posted by bigdude


The motor spins the right way but it is mounted in back ;)

I can't remember which way a bug motor turns ( type 4 or Porsche) but it looked like it was mounted the right way.
Just thought the normal position of these motors spin the crank the opposite direction from a normal forward mounted motor as veiwed from the front ( or rear for that matter)
Does this make sense?

Shoot, I dunno.

Originally posted by MR4WD


Let's see. A detroit diesel's a what? A 2 stroke? Oh yeah, that's right. It's possible in a 2 stroke, not a 4 stroke.

4 stroke diesels will run backwards also.
Lets see,
standard engine is down = intake
up = compression
injector fires
down = power
up = exhaust

running backwards down = intake (thru exhaust)
up = compression
injector fires
down = power
up = exhaust (thru intake)

So, since you have not experienced this phonomenon, why don't you shut up. I have experienced it when I worked on heavy trucks and also on heavy equip. WITH 4 stroke Cat engines, and Mack 4 strokes.

Bronco, This is an idea that I came up with for the oiling issues with upside down axles. You will need to run much more gear oil when upside down to properly oil the pinon bearings since the gear oil will not get thrown into the oil port and onto the outer pinion bearing. This being said you must also consider that the oil will heat up and expand, so why not fill the diff almost all the way up and build a reservior similar to a raditor overflow and attach it higher than the diff. As the oil heats up and wants to push out of the diff it will run into the reservior, then when the oil cools down gravity will bring it back into the diff. filling it back up. You might also use a pinion mounted oil pump(think nascar) to pump the oil through a cooler and back into the diff. I think this would probally work for slow speed rockcrawling but long term high speed will probally kill it.

All ditchwitch axles I've seen run the diffs upside down. I don't know why they so this, maybe the mounting of the engine, but they are upside down with a new oil fill hole drilled in at the top of the cover. I have seen both F&R 60's and 70's this way.

Hope this helps you get some ideas started.

Originally posted by MR4WD
....techless babble....Gears are run in a certain direction for a reason, hence, reverse cut gearsets are not intended for standard rotation diffs. You'd be loading up the coast side, not the drive side, which is a big no-bo.....techless babble......

Um...don't all low pinion front axles drive on the coast side of the gear? Apparently all front axles with the exception of the very few reverse cut high pinion models should have destroyed themselves years ago, I can't believe Dana-Spicer and all the other axle companies committed such a "big no-bo" I guess they should have contacted MR4WD to set them straight. Sure HP fronts lose +/-30% strength when run as a rear, and I would suspect similar loses driving a standard diff up-side down, but that hasn't stopped anyone from running HP rears or upside-down 9"-ers.

As for the reverse rotation engine, it's all very interesting and I want to see someone do it, is it the next big innovation in the 4wd world? I doubt it, but it's a cool trick.

My old '77 Chevy 350 would chug so bad when I shut it down that if I let the clutch out it would drive backwards over two truck lengths in 1st gear, so yeah, a standard engine can run backwards, it's called "dieseling" but I wouldn't try to do it on purpose, that's what Marine cams or the two-gear cam drive is for.

So, in conclusion, MR4WD has again brought nothing to the thread other than additional evidence that he is in fact retarded. Now, back to your regularly scheduled tech, and keep thinking outside the box, bravo!

i don't see why running a manual transmission in the opposite direction would affect anything, even if the gears were helical cut? isn't the whole gear tooth face hardened, not just the drive side?

there are bearings on both sides of the gears right? so it would prevent them from walking...

someone correct me if i'm wrong here... only manual i've popped open is a t15a :emb:

I dont see the poit?!

If you flip a normal dana 60 and weld on steering knuckles yes its less strong then a RC d60 front, lets say 30% less strong. And yes it makes sense if you reverse the direction of your motor then the fliped front d60 will be 100% strong, but then the flipped rear d60 would be weekend int he revers rotation direction!

If you run a reverse rotation engine, then your gonna want a RC d60 in the rear and a standard cut flipped rear d60 in the front. So if you already have the RC d60 just run it in front and use a normal engine?!?

I see no way how this could at all be close to a good idea?:rolleyes:

It's probably a better idea for axles that aren't available in an HP configuration, say, custom up-side down 14-bolts or 9" axles front and rear, but like you said, the rear ends up slightly weaker.

Originally posted by 4Bangler
the rear ends up slightly weaker.

yup.

BRAIN Fart is correct hows this reverse rotation engine what about the trans take a 4 speed. 4 speeds reverse 1 speed forward :confused:

Originally posted by 1SAWB
BRAIN Fart is correct hows this reverse rotation engine what about the trans take a 4 speed. 4 speeds reverse 1 speed forward :confused:

Input/output of a trans is all about the # of gears in the power path. Even # of gears and the rotation is reversed, odd number and the rotation is the same!

I just want to say this thread is the most fun I’ve had on this board for a while.

Do they make RR smaller engines like 4 cyl. or V6’s?
I’m dreaming of a small tube rig with Dana44’s, small engine and 37’s at a reasonable cost. I’m just having fun with the thought.

Oh and the diesel running backwards, has me distracted as well. Do the injectors really fire after the compression? That doesn’t make sense to me.

BMW and Volvo I-4s and BMW I-6 3.5L are available in RR. The GM Iron Duke I-4 is very common as well. . Gray Marine used the Buick all aluminum V8 for a few years in both rotations, and it's very light and has BOP bellhousing. Fully dressed its 275 lbs!

Originally posted by Old Scout


Your a dumb ass!
Try spinning your distributor backwards and see how well the advance works!



No need to sling shit here. It happend and it was running just fine in reverse rotation... Now I didn't say it should work only that it did.

Way I came apon it was totaly by accident we were hill climbing a truck that had week brakes.. It died and then it started rolling back down I couldn't hold the the truck on the hill with the brakes and it began to gain speed (in gear) and it started the fawking engine. once running it was the strangest thing because it took off like a mother fawker going backwards down the hill. finaly I turned it off and that was that.

You mention Timing ( I mentioned you would have to adjust it) but the engine in question was using a a points style weighted dist advance..

Originally posted by ashmanjeepXJ
I dont see the poit?!

If you flip a normal dana 60 and weld on steering knuckles yes its less strong then a RC d60 front, lets say 30% less strong. And yes it makes sense if you reverse the direction of your motor then the fliped front d60 will be 100% strong, but then the flipped rear d60 would be weekend int he revers rotation direction!
Q=Whats 30% of a D60 in a light wieght vehicle??
A=nuthin to worry about
Originally posted by ashmanjeepXJ
If you run a reverse rotation engine, then your gonna want a RC d60 in the rear and a standard cut flipped rear d60 in the front. So if you already have the RC d60 just run it in front and use a normal engine?!?
Did ya think about this first, or just type it out??
If I have a regular motor and swapped diffs from front to back it will still go forward. So a RR engine with a RC D60 in the back will be BACKWARDS. I dont have an RC D60, I have a regular D60.

Originaly posted by ashmanjeepXJ
I see no way how this could at all be close to a good idea?:rolleyes:
could be because ya don't realy understand whats going on........
Originaly posted by 1SAWB[B]
BRAIN Fart is correct hows this reverse rotation engine what about the trans take a 4 speed. 4 speeds reverse 1 speed forward [B]
Were do you guys hang out.....?
The engine spins backwards, the tranny spins backwards, the diffs spins backwards(countering the first two).
Originaly posted by Mellow Yellow
[B]Do they make RR smaller engines like 4 cyl. or V6’s? [B]
I think all Hondas spin backwards. Good luck with a tranny tho, better luck with 'Old Scouts' suggested mills.
Originaly posted by ItsaCJ6[B]
You mention Timing ( I mentioned you would have to adjust it) but the engine in question was using a a points style weighted dist advance..[B]
Regular motor:
The weights would advance in a clockwise rotation, advancing the matching clockwise rotation of the distributor.
RR motor=
The weights would advance in a clockwise rotation, RETARDING the counter clockwise rotation of the distributor.
Originaly posted by ItsaCJ6
[B]Way I came apon it was totaly by accident we were hill climbing a truck that had week brakes.. It died and then it started rolling back down I couldn't hold the the truck on the hill with the brakes and it began to gain speed (in gear) and it started the fawking engine. once running it was the strangest thing because it took off like a mother fawker going backwards down the hill. finaly I turned it off and that was that.

You mention Timing ( I mentioned you would have to adjust it) but the engine in question was using a a points style weighted dist advance....[B]
Confused here....... Being a points style weighted dist I'm guessing its a carberated engine. Running backwards means sucking from exhaust, and blowing out intake. Now since the carb is on the intake(now exhaust side) where does the engine get the fuel required to continue running?? (under stood how it 'might' happen in a multi port/Diesel style injection system)

Todays thought.......
POWER STEERING PUMP
can they run backwards?? I think not.
I doubt there is any RR pumps right?
Maybe dealt with by a funky pulley set-up? (hoping for a better way)
Ideas???

Originally posted by MellowYellow
Oh and the diesel running backwards, has me distracted as well. Do the injectors really fire after the compression? That doesn’t make sense to me.

The injector firing is thru a mechanical fuel pump. It fires due to gear driven timing. Granted, the power is not there when the eng runs backwards, as the fuel is actually being injected right after TDC, but it will run.

Originally posted by Rogue Bronco

Todays thought.......
POWER STEERING PUMP
can they run backwards?? I think not.
I doubt there is any RR pumps right?
Maybe dealt with by a funky pulley set-up? (hoping for a better way)
Ideas???

Several vehicles ran a 12 volt electric power steering pump. Late 80's when the Japanese had the rear steering craze (Honda, Mitsubishi, Subaru). A buddy of mine uses a Subaru XT-6 electric steering pump for his rear steering. We have not put a guage on it, but it is supposed to put out the same pressure as a Saginaw.

What kinda pressure we talkin here??
I know boats use them for hydrolic leg lifts & shit, but I think its mainly for in/outboard shit. Not sure on rotation availablity.

Originally posted by 350 Samurai


Several vehicles ran a 12 volt electric power steering pump. Late 80's when the Japanese had the rear steering craze (Honda, Mitsubishi, Subaru). A buddy of mine uses a Subaru XT-6 electric steering pump for his rear steering. We have not put a guage on it, but it is supposed to put out the same pressure as a Saginaw.

now this is some GREAT tech....i'll be keeping my eyes open for one of these!!!!

Originally posted by Rogue Bronco
What kinda pressure we talkin here??
I know boats use them for hydrolic leg lifts & shit, but I think its mainly for in/outboard shit. Not sure on rotation availablity.

No worry they make them.

check out latemodel chevy stuff. a friend of mine had an old chevy truck that had a 454 swapped in. he brought it over to my house one day, and to make a long story short, he put the fan through the radiator and we had to fix. well, come to find out we had no fan laying around for it because the motor spun the other way. :eek: check it out.

-Scott

Originally posted by SCOTTS_4X
check out latemodel chevy stuff. a friend of mine had an old chevy truck that had a 454 swapped in. he brought it over to my house one day, and to make a long story short, he put the fan through the radiator and we had to fix. well, come to find out we had no fan laying around for it because the motor spun the other way. :eek: check it out.

-Scott

nope, the motor spun the normal direction, just the fan spun the opposite way, because it had a serpentine belt system, which drives the water pump off of the back side of the belt, hence, spinning it the opposite direction of the motor...

Originally posted by CrazyHorse


nope, the motor spun the normal direction, just the fan spun the opposite way, because it had a serpentine belt system, which drives the water pump off of the back side of the belt, hence, spinning it the opposite direction of the motor...

actually it had v-belts. we put an electric fan on the radiator and put the other belts back on and he drove it home. :flipoff2:

As of a few year ago GM stopped suplying revers rotation engines to the marine market. Every(I can think of) new engine package now is using Hurth or Borg-warner new style gears to run revers rotation props. Revers engines can still had from old stock or custom built by marie engine supliers(or you of corse.:flipoff2: ). If you build your own, and are using pistons with off-set wrist pins, they need to be installed backwards. This is done to off-set the major thrust side wear.

Marc

Hey, why not run a gear box after your tranny? Surely 2 gears running on a 1:1 ratio with a suitable input/output that you could marry yokes to should be easy enough to produce. Sure, you'd have to divorce your t-case and run the gear box in between. And, you'd have to incorporate enough strength to account for your engine's highest power point in the transmissions deepest gear... And then some, but it must be cheaper.

Or, would that be to easy? And I'm also betting you could do this for cheaper than running an entire engine backwards and drivetrain backwards plus you could run an automatic.

I thought about it. I'm betting only non turbo'ed diesel 4 strokes could accidentally run backwards. What about a detroit that requires a blower to run? I bet that couldn't run backwards since in the instant in kicked over you'd have intake vacuum, as opposed to 1 atmospheric pressure. Still, in theory this works, but I'd have to witness it to beleive it.

All the standard rotation Dana 60's I've pulled have oil slinger galleries on the top and bottom of the pinion, so other than having a physically high pinion, once the ring gets moving it should sling oil high enough to lube the pinion. Same with a 14 bolt.

4 bangler. Look at an intended reverse rotation ring and pinion and compare the contact patch of a standard rotation R&P. You'll notice the contact patch is completely different, as is the surface area of contacting teeth. I completely understand your inabilty to comprehend this and your general assumption that the gears aer upside down and the pinion's on the other side, but there's more to it than that, dick face. I appreciate your attempt to insult me, but you're too severley disarmed to do battle. Don't talk to me.

Hey, old scout: since the cam runs backwards, do they run reverse helix (as opposed to "standard") on the distributor (since you can change the gears at will -on a chev- anyways) to pull the distributor into the oil pump? I can't recall exactly, but you should be able to pull apart the top of the dizzy shaft and reinstall everything upside down to achieve reverse weights. Or do most boats not have advance as is what is found in jet boats since they run past attributable vacuum advance anyways? ie: 2500 and up range...

Originally posted by MR4WD
Hey, why not run a gear box after your tranny? ...

I thought about it. I'm betting only non turbo'ed diesel 4 strokes could accidentally run backwards. What about a detroit that requires a blower to run? I bet that couldn't run backwards since in the instant in kicked over you'd have intake vacuum, as opposed to 1 atmospheric pressure. Still, in theory this works, but I'd have to witness it to beleive it.
...

As for the gearbox, it could work, as long as length isn't an issue.

As for diesel's running backwards, it doesn't matter if the are turbo'd or not. Detroits that have a blower, it would create a vacuum on the exhaust as it would now be running backwards.

Originally posted by MR4WD
.....some actually valid tech from MR4WD, extremely rare, should be book marked....

.....some loosely fact based theory arguing about running a standard engine backwards, which is not really the tech Rogue Bronco is looking for....

.....more truly valid tech about oils slingers in Dana 60's and 14-bolts, wow, twice on one post!.....

4 bangler. Look at an intended reverse rotation ring and pinion and compare the contact patch of a standard rotation R&P. You'll notice the contact patch is completely different, as is the surface area of contacting teeth. I completely understand your inabilty(sic) to comprehend this and your general assumption that the gears aer(sic) upside down and the pinion's on the other side, but there's more to it than that, dick face. I appreciate your attempt to insult me, but you're too severley(sic) disarmed to do battle. Don't talk to me.

......some mildly related tech and some kissing of Old Scout's ass....

I'll just concentrate on the part concerning me.

First of all, every time I hear some one refer to a high pinion, reverse-cut ring and pinion as "reverse rotation" I lump them in the same category with those folks that insist on calling a front differential a "front rear end".

Anyway, I've looked at reverse cut gears, and I don't need to compare the contact patch or surface area of the contacting teeth, because that has no bearing on what we're discussing here. I make no assumptions that the gears are upside-down or on the opposite side, and I have more than enough ability to understand the principles of a high pinion gearset, however, I am beginning to doubt your comprehension.

Basically, you said..

Originally posted by MR4WD
....Gears are run in a certain direction for a reason, hence, reverse cut gearsets are not intended for standard rotation diffs. You'd be loading up the coast side, not the drive side, which is a big no-bo.....

....to which I responded....

Originally posted by 4Bangler
Um...don't all low pinion front axles drive on the coast side of the gear?....

What exactly am I not comprehending? In a standard rear axle, the pinion is mounted in front of the axle in relation to forward travel, and mounted below axle centerline, the ring gear's cut effectively "pulls" the pinion towards the ring and the pinion drives the ring on the drive side of the tooth. In a standard front axle the pinion is mounted behind the axle, and since it is still mounted below the axle centerline, the ring gear (still turning the same direction) is now pushing the pinion away from the ring and the pinion is driving the ring on the coast side of the tooth.

Now along comes Ford and they get with Dana and come up with what I consider to be one of the best innovations anyone could bring to the 4wd market, the High Pinion front axle. In the high pinion front, the pinion is mounted above the centerline, and in order to avoid having the front drive shaft turn in the opposite direction (like the old GMC 6x6's did so they could use the same 3rd member in all three axles) the ring and pinion needed to be cut in a reversed pattern as compared to a standard ring and pinion, in this configuration, the pinion is now drawn into the ring gear and the pinion drives the ring on the drive side of the tooth resulting in a stronger and more efficient design with many added advantages to the 4wd world.

I suppose I should have left out my meager attempt to insult you, as you are correct, I am not prepared to do battle with you in a shit slinging idiot contest, I don't like arguing with idiots, if I stoop to your level, you will beat me with experience.

Not talking to you will be very easy, I've never had to do this before, but I think I'll be going here:

Add MR4WD to Your Ignore List (http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/member2.php?s=&action=addlist&userlist=ignore&userid=11484)

My deepest apologies go out to all the other followers of this thread, if I could refund each of you the two minutes of your life you wasted reading this techless bitch-fest, I would.

In a feeble attempt to bring some actual valid tech to this post, I actually agree with MR4WD's idea of running a two-gear 1:1 gear box to reverse the output rotation, but why not run all standard drive train with a HP front axle, and use a reverser (like the ones used on Lenco transmissions) on the rear output of the transfer case to allow running an up-side-down rear axle? The reverser could be setup to drop the rear output, basically making the rear drive shaft totally level in a highly lifted chassis, or could be clocked in any direction to provide any offset.

Wow, that's a hard act to follow! I don't have any good insults, I'll just keep to tech.

Helical gears develop thrusts and have thrust bearings to resist the side loads.

If you run them backwards the thrust goes the opposite way along the shaft.

It's been a few years since looking at a tranny opened up, but I'm guessing that both sides should have some kind of bearing since when using engine braking, the thrusts reverse from the drive thrust.
Ken

Originally posted by JeepinIan


The injector firing is thru a mechanical fuel pump. It fires due to gear driven timing. Granted, the power is not there when the eng runs backwards, as the fuel is actually being injected right after TDC, but it will run.

ok, so im doing something wrong, my diesel has really good compression, on a near vertical ledge it will sit there in first and not budge (compression)

so i tried fourth, on about 20* whats the story, higher gear, so it should spin, but still the compression is good.....or something

how do i start it in reverse? :flipoff2:

Originally posted by larryboy


now this is some GREAT tech....i'll be keeping my eyes open for one of these!!!!

FAWK yeah, i want one too!!

Originally posted by 4Bangler


My deepest apologies go out to all the other followers of this thread, if I could refund each of you the two minutes of your life you wasted reading this techless bitch-fest, I would.



not a waste of time imo,i got a new quote in my sig line:D :D :D .

The gear box would generaly be a GREAT way around my 'theoretical' situation, but, my WB is about 95"(with 2 T-cases already).
I dont think the reverse power through the tranny should be a prob. Who hasnt down shifted hard enough to drag the ass end around??(maybe not in lifted truck, but U know what I mean). They are designed (somewhat) to take that kind of load(reverse burnouts comes to mind). Granted there aint 1/2 the traction, but a good ol' cast tranny should take the abuse right?

how do i start it in reverse?
you could try reversing as fast as you are comfortable, shift to a synco'd forward gear and dump the clutch without steppin on the gas pedal.
Theoreticly 'as some claim' the engine will stall(obviously), and the backwards momentum should kick the engine over into reverse rotation. Then it 'should' re-start. And if it does start you should be able to drive home (forward) in reverse.

I would like to hear somebody try this and tell me if it works or not, cause I'm not seein it working.
For extra amusment, do it with the wife.
"Hold on hun while I try sumthin"
"why we backin up so fast???........Why you shiftin into 3rd, we are still goin backwards??..........WHY ARE WE DRIVING FORWARDS AND THE TRUCKS IN REVERSE?!?!?!?!" LOL

Originally posted by BJ On Roids


ok, so im doing something wrong, my diesel has really good compression, on a near vertical ledge it will sit there in first and not budge (compression)

so i tried fourth, on about 20* whats the story, higher gear, so it should spin, but still the compression is good.....or something

how do i start it in reverse? :flipoff2:

All the times that I have had one run backwards, and it has only been about 3 or 4 times, it was when the engine was warm, and going to restart the engine didn't quite turn over and it started backwards.

:rolleyes: Why don't you just spin your seat 180 and then you're facing the right direction. or just buy some HP diffs like everyone else. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Hammerlock
:rolleyes: Why don't you just spin your seat 180 and then you're facing the right direction. or just buy some HP diffs like everyone else. :rolleyes:
Did you only read the first & last post, maybe a couple inbetween??
Whats the cost of front & rear HP D60's made custom??
I'm talkin stock LP diffs flipped over with a lil knuckle work.
The only grief would be in the diff lubrication(I think)
Cost for HP D60's are about 15/1800bucks(Can.) regular D60's go for 300bucks(mine), that would leave about 1500bucks ahead of the game to throw else were(just from the front end), rear stays stock(save $$ on re-tubing, and on another HP D60,$1600), and if your building a motor anyways, whats the diff on a couple marine parts??
If the Trans. could handle small block power going into it reversed, I think its a pretty decent idea.

Ooh ya, AND I don't wanna be like 'everyone' else, thats for sheep :flipoff2:

I really think the tail-shaft mounted gearbox could make this work, and I think it could be built to take up no more space than an NP205 rear output housing, and it could drop the rear output a couple inches to boot, almost negating the need for an HP rear in the first place. If scoring an HP front is a major issue, I suppose the reverser could be built to take the place of a trans-to-transfer case adapter, something that is already happening with crawler boxes.

Originally posted by 4Bangler
I really think the tail-shaft mounted gearbox could make this work, and I think it could be built to take up no more space than an NP205 rear output housing, and it could drop the rear output a couple inches to boot, almost negating the need for an HP rear in the first place. If scoring an HP front is a major issue, I suppose the reverser could be built to take the place of a trans-to-transfer case adapter, something that is already happening with crawler boxes.

Or how about a pinion-mounted gear-box? A FF 14-bolt has that nice pinion mounting flange that a gear box could easily be designed to bolt up to. And you could make the output on the box go even higher than the normal pinion, so it would be almost like having a Rockwell pinion. A d60 might be a little more difficult though.

J. J.

Hmmm....pinion-mounted......hmmmm....

I know anything that says "Lenco" is far from affordable, but maybe if enough interest was show they could modify some of thier components for our applications. This reverser/talishaft housing seems like it would do the trick if it could be adapted to the back of the transfercase.

http://www.lencoracing.com/images/revimg.JPG

from http://www.lencoracing.com/

What I'd really like to see is a Lenco-style sectional transmission section used as a trans to t-case adapter, providing a shiftable 1.34:1 or 1:1 ratio, or even better, a 1.25:1-1:1-0.80:1 shiftable adapter. In my SM420/stockDana300/5.38 axles application, a three speed crawler box in a 1.25:1-1:1-0.80:1 ratio would give me 24 forward speeds ranging from 124:1 to 4.30:1 all with 75%-90% separation, most being 80%

I think auxilary trans like this could be built with the trans bolt pattern on one end and the t-case pattern on the other, and the total length of about 6.5"

Originally posted by patooyee


Or how about a pinion-mounted gear-box? A FF 14-bolt has that nice pinion mounting flange that a gear box could easily be designed to bolt up to. And you could make the output on the box go even higher than the normal pinion, so it would be almost like having a Rockwell pinion. A d60 might be a little more difficult though.

J. J.

Additional idea: Take a 14-bolt chunk, make it into one of WMS's fancy front axles only mount it upside down. That takes care of the front HP. Put the fancy little gear box on the rear 14-bolt pinion and get the RR axle that way. Vola! Stock drivetrain, upside down axles, HP all around, 14-bolt R&P. (STRONG to compensate for coast-side stresses.)

Question: Can the top of a 14-bolt be shaved any more than the bottom?

J. J.

Originally posted by dan killer
The water pump and the fan will need some research. Boat engines don't have or use automotive style pump.

Elec. fan and elec. water pump.

Originally posted by dan killer


A boat's cooling system is also a heating system. The water is first sent to the exhaust manifolds to be heated up, then to the motor and then finnaly out the exhaust. The marine pump is higher pressure but lower flow. You need some contact time to heat the water in the exhaust manifoilds and and lots of pressure to move it thru all the extra hoses. A car pump can work on some boats in some lakes/rivers, but try to use one on a lake like Tahoe and your engine may never warm up.

Maybe some are this way, but not mine.

83 PCM (Ford)351Winsdor reverse rotation.

water goes from the raw water pump (pickup pump) to the thermostat, and after it comes out it cools the massive cast iron header/exhast manifolds and spews the steam and water out the exhaust.

Engine runs at 165 degrees on tahoe, or the delta in heat of summer thanks to a working thermostat. lakes and rivers are huge fawking radiator that never overheats ;)

starter is standard polarity. just a reverse gear on it .

Water pump is differerent,

oil pump is different,

distributer ( its old, has points and spring advance) is different.

The cam of course is different

the front pulley/harmonic balancer is different ( timing marks need to be engraved differently)

I forget the details but the pistons and connecting rods are mounted backwards. Please don't make me dig out my rebuild manual to scan pics to prove it, and its been over 12 years now.

So, other than those minor details, and working out the tranny, it is a piece of cake.