hello guys. i'm driving a 91. sammy. im from croatia and me and my friends are planning a 3000 miles expedition starting from july... i also built an OR trailer few months ago, and thinking in advance i immediately mounted a samurai rear diff with a 3 link coil suspension... but now i'd like to mount a hydraulic motor on it... so my vehicle would practically be a 6x6 from time to time...

anyway, i have thought of everything but i would like to know if anyone here had done this before to help me with some advices...

my idea was to mount a hydro pump on the rear propshaft and mount a hydro motor with a propshaft on the trailer, what do u think :smokin:

thanks in advance :)

I've thought about this, if you mount the pump on the front drive(prop)shaft you would only engage it when you needed four wheel drive

Honestly this just sounds like an overcomplicated mess. It would take a lot of calculations to get the gearing, hydraulic motor speed and pump flow right so that it's not trying to push the tow vehicle or is just being dragged behind it. Even if it did work, it would probably only be fast enough to be used in low range at a crawl. In addition, unless the trailer weighs enough, it's not going to have enough ground pressure to get any traction anyway.

yea. i know elwenil. i agree...

but my idea was it would only work in low range and only in the first gear. just to help sometimes....
and since there will be more mudding than crawling. i think it could work....

maytag, that is the problem, cos i do not want that to be engaged anytime when im usin 4wheel drive, and of course - another problem is too much fabwork to get that done properly... i was thinking maybe mounting the pump somewhere under the hood so i can engage it anytime i want BUT ONLY when 4wd nd 1. low range gear is on... got it???
but here's a problem, when i press the clutch my car wouldnt have any drive, and the trailer would

P.S.
the trailer with all the equipment weights more than 300 kg

2 spare tyres
50 litres of spare fuel, 50 litres of water
camping and survival equipment
tent
trailer itself...
etc

i think it is enough for some traction in mud... correct me if im wrong ;)

I'm with Elwenil. The amount of effort put in for the return isn't going to be worth it.

About the only thing that stands a chance of working without getting really complicated would be a pump on the rear diff of the truck identical to the one on the diff of the trailer - so that you'd have a 1:1 ratio directly between the two. Driving it any other way and you're going to have to figure out some control so you don't get the push/pull issues.

Even there you have to figure in something to disconnect it when not in use. Hydraulic systems aren't going to work well for higher speeds - so it would have to be low-range only.

Also, what sort of hitch setup are you looking at? A typical ball or pintel isn't going to work well.

It would probably help the trailer along in mud, but there you're not likely to be crawling anyway?

@ PAToyota...yea maybe ure both right... but just for the sake of it... what do u mean by HITCH SETUP, i guess my english is good but not perfect :D

He means the design of the hitch that connects your trailer to your tow vehicle.

somethin like this. thats road legal here in eu :)

http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/show_product.do?pid=59666&familyName=Fulton+Fold-Away+Coupler+Kit

but what does it matter???

A ball hitch like the one you linked can pop off at extreme angles and if your trailer is powered, it will shove the tongue into the back of your tow vehicle. A pintle hitch would be better but you would have to deal with the constant banging of the lunette ring.

but what does it matter???

As Elwenil says, that isn't going to hold up to the push/pull of a driven trailer.

You'd tear the one you posted apart fairly quickly.

i have thought about it. in order to make it practical you would have to mount the pto on the transmission and then the hydraulic motor would need a disconnect between it and the trailer axle. when you are crawling you can engage the pto and it will be spinning the pump according to engine speed, not vehicle speed. mounting it on the t-case or drive shaft would not drive the pump fast enough. you also don't want the motor connected to the trailer axle if the truck is pulling the trailer. they make driveshaft disconnects for vehicles towed behind motorhomes. unless your going to use the wet kit (pto and hydraulic pump) for your winch and stuff it's probably not going to be worth it very often.

in my experience towing a trailer creates a problem when you have to turn around or take a very sharp corner. last week i took it off roading and we went up a lot of narrow winding shelf roads that had me nervous because there was nowhere to turn around for miles. had the trail been blocked or washed out i would have had to try to back up which would have been nearly impossible. traction has only been a problem once i think and that was in sand with a cummins in the trailer. if you were to try to power it i think using some sort of pto powered driveshaft going to the trailer would be best.

Awesome idea. Like an old Gama Goat right? (They had integral powered trailers.... and they floated:smokin:) I don't recall how they transferred power, but I have to look it up now because it bothers me.

Probably a driveshaft as previously mentioned would be the cheapest/most simple/durable method. Maybe even a tractor pto driveshaft, and you can unhook it and slide it together when not in use.

edit: the gama goat had some trick little powered "articulated joint" for which I can find very little information..... so you're on your own there :)

@chrisevans...well i know a guy who has a transmission box with 3 pto exits... that could work... :confused: maybe he would sell it...

@bakerthew... yea something like a gama goat, hey if u find some info bout it... fell free to post it here ,;) thanks

yea something like a gama goat, hey if u find some info bout it... fell free to post it here ,;) thanks

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/gama-goat/

Knock yourself out!

We have thought about this several times for our haulers. Stuck in the sand is not fun and sometimes takes a chain of 3-5 trucks to pull them forward.

Something that would drive the wheels about 5mph with a one way clutch. We are watching the electric motor development. Some are pancake so you could put them where brakes are now. etc. etc.

i think ill officially give for now. i have some other more important problems to solve on my suzuki... anyway...thank u guys... will update this thread if i change my ming ;) bye

i have thought about it. in order to make it practical you would have to mount the pto on the transmission and then the hydraulic motor would need a disconnect between it and the trailer axle. when you are crawling you can engage the pto and it will be spinning the pump according to engine speed, not vehicle speed. mounting it on the t-case or drive shaft would not drive the pump fast enough. you also don't want the motor connected to the trailer axle if the truck is pulling the trailer. they make driveshaft disconnects for vehicles towed behind motorhomes. unless your going to use the wet kit (pto and hydraulic pump) for your winch and stuff it's probably not going to be worth it very often.

in my experience towing a trailer creates a problem when you have to turn around or take a very sharp corner. last week i took it off roading and we went up a lot of narrow winding shelf roads that had me nervous because there was nowhere to turn around for miles. had the trail been blocked or washed out i would have had to try to back up which would have been nearly impossible. traction has only been a problem once i think and that was in sand with a cummins in the trailer. if you were to try to power it i think using some sort of pto powered driveshaft going to the trailer would be best.

You saved me a bunch of typing. Thanks.

Hydraulic pumps don't work well 1-1 at 100RPM, and anything you gear to the point that it will pump with any authority at 100RPM, won't be able to handle 3000RPM on the highway.

Mike

Just FYI, the M561 Gama did not have a powered trailer, it was an articulated vehicle and the "trailer" was a permanent part of the vehicle and it could not be separated and driven individually. That's a pretty big difference from having a disconnectable trailer. If you really want to look at an MV with a powered trailer that is removable, look for info on the USMC Mk48 LVS and the various powered trailers used with it though everything would need to be scaled down a lot to be used on anything like a Samurai.

Couldn't you just use a belt driven pump, like off of a cotton stripper or combine. Mount that to you engine, have the power sent to a hand operated valve, with a return to the resivour, for when it not being used, then just mount the motor to the pinion and have it all connected by hydrolic hoses. With the valve you could regulate how fast you want it to go. We use hydrolic grain augers and motors to wind up hot wire fences and with the valve you can make it go however fast you want. It would be like having hydrostate drive on the trailer. And the motor would just free wheel when not in use.

I doubt you would ever get anything small and cheap to work at any real speed and anything that would flow enough to propel it to a decent speed would cost more than the whole vehicle is worth.

Just FYI, the M561 Gama did not have a powered trailer, it was an articulated vehicle and the "trailer" was a permanent part of the vehicle and it could not be separated and driven individually. That's a pretty big difference from having a disconnectable trailer. If you really want to look at an MV with a powered trailer that is removable, look for info on the USMC Mk48 LVS and the various powered trailers used with it though everything would need to be scaled down a lot to be used on anything like a Samurai.

x2 on the lvs.
on my trailer i just pulled out the shafts and replaced them with chopped off axles to keep the oil in (it's a 1 ton ff). a starter motor might work in some situations. for example when i got stuck in the sand i could move forward and backward about 10 feet but no further. if it had a starter motor running off the trailer battery if might have been enough to help me get out of the ruts to where i could keep going. another instance was a 170* turn where i had to unhitch the trailer, get the truck into position to act as an anchor so i could use a high lift to winch the trailer around the bend. having a starter motor and a couple e-brake handles to work the emergency brakes as cutting brakes would have allowed me to propel the trailer forward using the brakes to steer. i might just do that...

I doubt you would ever get anything small and cheap to work at any real speed and anything that would flow enough to propel it to a decent speed would cost more than the whole vehicle is worth.

I don't see a need to have it at any real speed. Just when he gets in a bind on a obsticle. Those hydrolic motors on our augers can spin pretty damn fast and could probably help power over a obsticle.

He wants it for mud. He will need some wheel speed for it to do anything.

Consider this?
Use a golf cart motor hooked up to a drive shaft to a front drive Sami axle under your trailer with the steering locked down. The front axle is so you can dial out the hubs for road use.
Or, If you could use a IFS drive front frame section from an old Toyota 4WD truck with manual dial out, hubs. Again you can dial in the hubs on the trailer when you need to climb an obstacle. If you use either the Straight or IFS drivetrain and suspesion you can make it steerable with an 12 volt electric drive accuator. The accuators can be had cheap in up to 400 lb capacity.

The electric motor won't care if you drive it a little with the hubs locked in because they are made to turn 10K RPM. And they will still be driving through the rear end for reduction like they do in a golf cart. The only downside will be sealing the golf cart motor from water.
With the hubs unlocked it will trailer like normal. And they are variable speed motors if you use the golf car controller. Maybe use a motorcycle clutch lever mounted to your emergency brake handle to work the electric throttle.
Plus you will have reverse. The only drawback is weight. But, any drive system on a trailer is gonna have weight.
Maybe one battery in the trailer hooked to the tow rig battery for short burst and recharging to keep the weight down on the trailer.

I've been kicking this idea around for some time now.
Even got most of the parts to build one.
Right now I'm building a steerable off road trailer with independant suspension. The frame with the steering is done. But no drive on this one. They next one will. The steering on the trailer was easy to set up for remote control.

CJ

It can be done very effectively, it won't spin the boggers at 90mph but it will move you. Check this link out, the principles are the same, just drive the pinion with a similar motor, these units are used with a PTO driven pump. There are some really cool things in the hydraulic world, just keep the system sealed and clean.

http://www.tuthill.com/us/en/products/Catalog/EZ-Trac.cfm

hmmm, steer axles on the trailer, that's a really good idea. i'm going to have to think about that...

hmmm, steer axles on the trailer, that's a really good idea. i'm going to have to think about that...

What I'm got so far.
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c369/Curtis-J/IFS%20Off%20Road%20Trailer%20Build/DSC02176.jpg

How about running a gasoline engine with a go-cart type centrifugal clutch. You wouldn't have reverse unless you put a reverser on there, but you could name your power, it would freewheel easily and it would be a lot simpler to put together. All you would need is an electric start engine and a 12 volt actuator to run the throttle from idle to full power. A 10hp engine with the right gearing would add a little to get you out of a bind or push you where you needed to go.

I've thought about something like this for a long time. The problem with hydraulics is that you need a bypass valve, or it won't freewheel. Hydrostatic drives are torquey, but slow and they don't do well with towing. They cannot freewheel unless a bypass valve is in place, and if you go too fast, the fluid speed is too much and it drags the wheels, or blows something up.

Any kind of engine would work with the right combination of drive components.

Packaging is the problem with a short wheelbase rig and powering the trailer with the tow rig. There's not a lot of room to package an auxiliary drive line even if you wanted to power the trailer from the tow rig drive line or t-case, especially the rear drive line. Might be easier to do it with the front drive line, if you made it a 2-piece with a roller-block carrier bearing and a chain drive in between the t-case and carrier bearings. You'd probably have to run a solid shaft to find a sprocket that would fit, then use one of those double chains like the mud truck guys use instead of a t-case. You would be limited in the amount of power you could put down, and you would have to run a tractor type drive line between the tow rig and trailer.

If it was easy, there would be a kit you could buy at Napa...

a sprag or one way clutch and half your problems are solved, if you are not powered its free spooled and if you pull faster than it who cares.
only problem is reverse, THEN you will be pushing against the motor but at low speeds it should not be an issue

There's been some discussions on steelsoldiers about sending power from a deuce to a trailer by replacing the trailer axle with another deuce rear axle and installing another driveshaft with a carefully positioned pillow-block. Something I'd like to do to Mah Deuce eventually...

i like the idea of the aux engine. i have a little gas engine for one of those atv type things. i don't know anything about it but it's chain drive, i wonder if that could work? it would be awesome to have it run a generator or alternator and be able to switch it from one role to the other easily.

How about running a gasoline engine with a go-cart type centrifugal clutch. You wouldn't have reverse unless you put a reverser on there, but you could name your power, it would freewheel easily and it would be a lot simpler to put together. All you would need is an electric start engine and a 12 volt actuator to run the throttle from idle to full power. A 10hp engine with the right gearing would add a little to get you out of a bind or push you where you needed to go.



this but replace the gas engine with a large size diesel electric starter and two deep cycle batteries, using an axle like a ford 9" or a 14 bolt with the pinion support, which would give you a platform to build a mount for the starter. adapt a centrifugal clutch on the starter and a pinion flange with a dirt bike sprocket mated to it connected with chain, would work good for those hard spots on the trail for your trailer.

I think the ideas about alternate power sources are a bit extravagant. If this were to be done, I'd keep it all powered by the vehicle to keep it simple and avoid less problems later on. Imagine the throttle getting stuck on a self-powered trailer and having to get out and catch it to shut it down before it jackknifed and pinned you against the tow rig. It's just more shit to break with not enough function to warrant all the fab and money to get it working.

Overall I think the idea is a bit exotic. If I were seriously having issues pulling a trailer across mud I think I would just drop the trailer before crossing and then winch it across when I got to the other side. You could rig up a tire or two on the tongue jack from an ATV or something to keep it out of the mud to a certain extent. Maybe a ski of sorts could work also depending on the type of mud.

this but replace the gas engine with a large size diesel electric starter and two deep cycle batteries, using an axle like a ford 9" or a 14 bolt with the pinion support, which would give you a platform to build a mount for the starter. adapt a centrifugal clutch on the starter and a pinion flange with a dirt bike sprocket mated to it connected with chain, would work good for those hard spots on the trail for your trailer. I like this idea, you could even have your tow vehicle setup with dual alternators so you can keep the batteries charged up in the back. You could also get fancier with a different motor and maybe some controls for the speed.. sounds expensive though..

I think the ideas about alternate power sources are a bit extravagant. If this were to be done, I'd keep it all powered by the vehicle to keep it simple and avoid less problems later on. Imagine the throttle getting stuck on a self-powered trailer and having to get out and catch it to shut it down before it jackknifed and pinned you against the tow rig. It's just more shit to break with not enough function to warrant all the fab and money to get it working. agreed I think you would want a method of control in the cab..

Overall I think the idea is a bit exotic. If I were seriously having issues pulling a trailer across mud I think I would just drop the trailer before crossing and then winch it across when I got to the other side. You could rig up a tire or two on the tongue jack from an ATV or something to keep it out of the mud to a certain extent. Maybe a ski of sorts could work also depending on the type of mud. I have a feeling the type of mud they are talking about doesn't end for a while... meaning it would take a lot of inch worming it to get the tow vehicle and the trailer across.

How about just adding a second axle to the Sami and hauling more gear on the tow vehicle and less on the trailer. You could make the trailer wheels rotate up out of the way and then it would be like pulling a sleigh through the mud? Not sure on the sleigh idea, but whatever.. Never been there, never done it, so don't listen to me.. lol

i think a starter motor is best if you need a little help, i would like to find a use for that little engine i have though. the problem i run into is mainly turning around or making very sharp turns. or small washouts where one wheel falls off the side of a shelf road. since my truck is so long and has so much weight up front i think i'll run a chain from the edge of the bumper to about halfway back on the frame of the trailer so that if i have to make a very sharp turn i can skid the trailer around the corner.

Electric motor + battery bank. You could set it up so that when cruising it would produce power to charge the batteries but could also turn the tires to help the trailer "pull its own weight" when bogged down. Plus you get to have the battery bank for power when camping, you could even weld with it. Seems alot simpler than hydraulics to me.

Seems like for this expense you would be much better off with lockers, chains, and a winch.

an alternate transfercase that has 2 rear drive outputs, jackshafts and pillowblock bearings is the most sensible thing here.