Tellico OHV is Closed!
I took the family through there yesterday on our way to Tellico Plains to have lunch. We got to see the american dream in motion. All that new underground utilities and advertised realestate start our trip on the way to Allen Gap. We observed happy squirrels and birds of all species living together on the natural slope and grassy hillside that used to be an environmental destruction staging area. After passing that point we got to see breathtaking million dollar realestate views left by the methodical deforestation of the mountain side up to Trail Upper #2. After catching our breath we got to travel the dirt road of what was that abomination Trail #2until it was met with trees covering and brush blocking the road at the FS jurisdiction. You could see Lake Hiawassee from up there. I have to note the wonderful effort the FS took with the silt flowing down the mountain like lava towards Tipton Creek and the silt fences were great as well. These time tested primitive silt fences of piled brush and debris will definitely stop any errosion. I'm surprised that I haven't seen the DOT, Commercial and Residential construction companies using this technique. It has to be better than any of those as stopping silt from entering the waterways is FS priority#1. We continued further to witness all of the slop created by the FS "Fixing" that horrible trail #4. I think they did a wonderful job creating a place for the protected wild hog population to protect their sensitive skin from that sun. This area now provides mud in those times of drought by covering all of those springs. The rest of trail one is perfect as it was in those old days just past the switch backs. I'm sure the silt from that area couldn't possibly hurt any living creature. Soon from this point our family vehicle stops vibrating and is now on environmentally friendly black top and we are so happy it rained the day before to wash off all that petroleum residue for us. The creeks and streams just gleemed in the sunlight with all the bright colors of the rainbow. Then we cross the State Line into Tennessee where we just stood in amazement viewing all of those empty great reconstructed large $20 per night campsites. I have to say I was never more pround to be an American to see my tax dollars so well spent. In a time where we are all struggling and seeing our tax dollars thrown into the wind. It just brought a tear to my eye to see that the FS just doesn't want to participate in the waste. They see that every penny of my taxes goes to making sure that they justify there larger than private sector salaries and retirement plans remain a testimate to the fortitude of the will of some. I couldn't be more pleased! Just from this job alone they deserve that break in those districts until 11am everyday. I say have another cup a joe on me guys and gals. Why get dirty before lunch!

:mad3::mad3::mad3:

All that time, money, and energy put in by so many wasted by both the FS and BRC and Southern. BRC and Southern just kept asking for money and manpower and when they got it they just sat back and laughed. Now that the FS got Tellico shut down, where do they stop? What's next? BRC and Southern both should have to explain what they have done with everything we've given to the Tellico fund. This flat out sucks.:mad3:
Robbie

I think we have taken it in the shooter on this one.

One thing I don't understand is who is the forest service accountable to?

At what level does someone have to be voted out of office for a change in the forest sevice to take place, if that can be done at all.

...there is some legal stuff going on that you would probably like very much. But Im not authorized to tell the story....come to the meetings and you can hear for yourself.


Oooooh, Déjà vu...

You have no idea what you are talking about. Lawyers are expensive, and there is some really interesting shit happening now on the legal front.

Is Tellico OHV area going to be re-opened? I seriously doubt it. But there is some legal stuff going on that you would probably like very much. But Im not authorized to tell the story....come to the meetings and you can hear for yourself.

http://www.sfwda.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=427

I aint laughing about donation money, and as a working member of SFWDA and a life member of BRC, I dont appreciate your accusation that Im somehow doing something fraudlent with the donations. My personal ethics are very important to me, and I am very willing to defend myself against such libelous accusations.

Sleep well.....

Yeah we have been hearing this same story for way too long now. The same old we are doing some great things (but we can't tell you what they are yet). Please send more money so that we can continue to do great things that we can't tell you about. The only thing I KNOW is that Tellico is GONE and the money sent to protect it did not.

I cannot attend the meetings as they are two states away and if you had not noticed, we are in a recession right now. Money does not grow on trees. Even more reason to be pissed about what all our money has done and where it is.

On a side note, I never once mentioned you personally as I have no idea who you are. If you wish to take it out of context and accept it as personal then that is on you.

I was speaking as a pissed off person that will never be able to enjoy a wonderful place again because the powers that be decided it so and the ones that said they would protect it did not.
Robbie

PS I will sleep well and wish you the same. If you are ever in my neighborhood stop in and there is a :beer: with your name on it. Hope to see you on the trails.

Just thought I would share with you all some news. It is interesting you note the destruction related to the obliteration project. I am sure you are aware of the NEPA based lawsuit SFWDA and Blue Ribbon has filed and is working through the court system. SFWDA and attorneys received the record from the FS about a month ago and have been reviewing the contents.

In addition to this action on January 25, 2011 SFWDA filed a NOI under the CWA notifying the FS of an impending Clean Water Act third party lawsuit for not obtaining the appropriate requisite permits and increasing the potential damage to Water Quality by executing the "Trail Obliteration" project. This action was taken by SFWDA only. This started the clock ticking with a 60 day notice such that we can file a CWA lawsuit when this notice expires.

If you would like a copy of the NOI email me and I will send you one. SFWDA continues to represent sustainable OHV recreation and is taking steps to ensure that the FS does not cause more harm due to their willful intent to circumvent the permit requirements in an act of haste to remove the trails.

Director of Conservation and Land Use, SFWDA

Excellent. I hope you guys burn them a new one.
Good Luck
Robbie

Just thought I would share with you all some news. It is interesting you note the destruction related to the obliteration project. I am sure you are aware of the NEPA based lawsuit SFWDA and Blue Ribbon has filed and is working through the court system. SFWDA and attorneys received the record from the FS about a month ago and have been reviewing the contents.

In addition to this action on January 25, 2011 SFWDA filed a NOI under the CWA notifying the FS of an impending Clean Water Act third party lawsuit for not obtaining the appropriate requisite permits and increasing the potential damage to Water Quality by executing the "Trail Obliteration" project. This action was taken by SFWDA only. This started the clock ticking with a 60 day notice such that we can file a CWA lawsuit when this notice expires.

If you would like a copy of the NOI email me and I will send you one. SFWDA continues to represent sustainable OHV recreation and is taking steps to ensure that the FS does not cause more harm due to their willful intent to circumvent the permit requirements in an act of haste to remove the trails.

Director of Conservation and Land Use, SFWDA


I know how much time, personal money and effort you have in this cause....let me know if I can help.

Thanks. This last action is all SFWDA. I am helping and we are trying to make something happen. Will let you know.

Thanks. This last action is all SFWDA. I am helping and we are trying to make something happen. Will let you know.

Thanks for the update. Its good to hear that things are still moving forward.

A successful judgment in an appeal based solely on a flawed NEPA process often just results in an agency revisiting the rule it failed to adhere to, correcting its clerical error and going forward with its original proposed solution.

In order to intercede in a productive manner that has hope of bringing about the desired permanent results, an appeal must speak to NEPA, issues outside of NEPA such as those defined by the Administrative Procedures Act and address specific scientific faults in the analysis.

In other words, you must find issue with and challenge the analysis process used, the resulting data and scientific facts that lead to the agency’s proposed solution that is being appealed, not just technicalities in execution of NEPA guidelines.

Good luck, it sure would be nice to have a win here and get back all that's been lost.

My biggest issue with this whole situation from the get-go is that SFWDA does not have a good PR program. All I and others have seen is just wait, can't tell you and send us some money or come to a meeting and then we may tell you something in hopes that you join SFWDA. I can tell you from my many years as a detective that people talk. They talk more if it is a secret. So, if SFWDA truely believes that the information they are letting out in these meetings are of any great importance then they are sadly mistaken. If they are releasing sensitive material in these meetings then god help us. I can tell you if it has been spoken in a meeting the FS, TU and or SELC knows about it! So, why not tell the masses the information that is being released at the meetings? I personally support SFWDA and have always had an issue with this. If you want peoples support you got to give them something for their money. Even Sally Struthers gives you a picture of a kid and tells you what they are doing to help each month and how the child is doing. I feel that giving information to people outside of the SFWDA organization is the right thing to do if you expect them to be involved $$$$$.

My biggest issue with this whole situation from the get-go is that SFWDA does not have a good PR program. All I and others have seen is just wait, can't tell you and send us some money or come to a meeting and then we may tell you something in hopes that you join SFWDA. I can tell you from my many years as a detective that people talk. They talk more if it is a secret. So, if SFWDA truely believes that the information they are letting out in these meetings are of any great importance then they are sadly mistaken. If they are releasing sensitive material in these meetings then god help us. I can tell you if it has been spoken in a meeting the FS, TU and or SELC knows about it! So, why not tell the masses the information that is being released at the meetings? I personally support SFWDA and have always had an issue with this. If you want peoples support you got to give them something for their money. Even Sally Struthers gives you a picture of a kid and tells you what they are doing to help each month and how the child is doing. I feel that giving information to people outside of the SFWDA organization is the right thing to do if you expect them to be involved $$$$$.

So simple, yet some people just don't get it. And yes, I understand that some info needs to remain private if lawsuits are involved, but i stopped giving money to "just wait" people long ago...

RedneckYJ, I trust you're not a member of BRC or Southern? Or at least haven't had a chance to keep up with all the magazine articles and such about BRC's role (and Southern) in the Tellico battle? It's mentioned (the current status of the lawsuit we're still in) every month in the BRC magazine.

It's a big mistake to get on Pirate and start up something when you don't have the facts or haven't done the homework -- well, let me say that this way: it's a big mistake to take a rant or a vent and start putting names and organizations to it when you don't know the full story. Hell, we all vent and rant on Pirate; but it needs to be factual and accurate if names are mentioned. That's the right thing to do.

BRC still has a legal action going and will be in court again April 15th (tax day) as it stands right now. Southern is still fighting. There is a lot to this and WE have not given up yet. Not sure why you have?

Del

What is the plan here?
The trails are gone.
Maybe set up other trails if the lawsuit is won?
Or is this more about drawing the line in the sand?
Glad I was able to run Tellico before it was closed.
I still say if the people of Murphy would have stood up this would have never happen.
You have to have local support.

A successful judgment in an appeal based solely on a flawed NEPA process often just results in an agency revisiting the rule it failed to adhere to, correcting its clerical error and going forward with its original proposed solution.

In order to intercede in a productive manner that has hope of bringing about the desired permanent results, an appeal must speak to NEPA, issues outside of NEPA such as those defined by the Administrative Procedures Act and address specific scientific faults in the analysis.

In other words, you must find issue with and challenge the analysis process used, the resulting data and scientific facts that lead to the agency’s proposed solution that is being appealed, not just technicalities in execution of NEPA guidelines.

Good luck, it sure would be nice to have a win here and get back all that's been lost.

The NEPA action is underway and in the court system now BRC and SFWDA are carrying the flag on this one.

I have attached the NOI filed 1/25/11 by SFWDA. This is the beginning of a court action under the Clean Water Act. These third party actions can be very powerful.

All that time, money, and energy put in by so many wasted by both the FS and BRC and Southern. BRC and Southern just kept asking for money and manpower and when they got it they just sat back and laughed. Now that the FS got Tellico shut down, where do they stop? What's next? BRC and Southern both should have to explain what they have done with everything we've given to the Tellico fund. This flat out sucks.
Robbie

Robbie, I am sorry you feel this way. let me try to answer some of your concerns. You are concerned about the Rescue Tellico fund monies. First, let me say some of the most accountable and prudent men with financial knowledge manage these monies. They are very careful how they are spent. Money from this fund has been used and continues to be used to fund and support building the case and paying for the court actions on our behalf to argue the decision made by the FS. Anytime you argue with the government it is expensive. Especially in an area that is technical in nature. Funds have been used to hire an engineering firm to develop a report and assessment of the trail conditions and make recommendations. This was used to build part of the case to file suit. Money has been used to pay for legal assistance to develop the filing, briefs and statements, Lawyers to participate in mediation, conference calls and strategy planning discussions, develop and file NOI's such as the one attached (two of these have been filed), hire certified sediment and erosion field inspector to make inspection of the trail obliteration work, as well as other associated costs for postage and so on. Amazingly, the fund has held it's own pretty well all because of generous donations from people like you.

It is important to realize every time an action is filed or a motion is presented ten's of thousands of dollars are expended in legal maneuvering. Therefore, it is important for the off road community to respond. It is also fair for the OHV community to expect to be informed of what is going on. When we begin to depose the FS and go into Court for the trial the expenses are certain to increase. We will be there soon with the NEPA suit. As far as the CWA Third Party suit we can't take action until the 60 day notice expires (on or about March 25, 2011) but we can file anytime after this date. These decisions are not taken lightly and we have to weigh the pros and cons of the actions as they are expensive. I hope this answers some of your concerns.

Director of Land Use and Conservation, SFWDA Hope to see you in Tracy City March 5.

What is the plan here?
The trails are gone.
Maybe set up other trails if the lawsuit is won?
Or is this more about drawing the line in the sand?
Glad I was able to run Tellico before it was closed.
I still say if the people of Murphy would have stood up this would have never happen.
You have to have local support.

What is the Plan?
Under the NEPA suit the idea is to re-dress the technical issues under which the trails were closed. Also may achieve a possible settlement to establish trails in another part of the forest.

Under a CWA suit the idea is to make sure long term damages to the water resources have not been done or caused to occur in the future due to the Obliteration project. If so, may get a decision to restore the system. Also, penal action for not following protocol and getting appropriate permits, such as fines for the violations.

I could not post the Citizen Suit letter since it is the wrong file type.

Crawfords Campground
Are the local people going to support this?
What about the Mayor of Murphy and those who own buisnesses in Murphy and surrounding areas?

It seams to me that the people of Murphy and the surrounding area missed the opportunity to send a message when they did not vote Congressman Schuluer out of office for his stance on the FS action. I have no idea if the business community supports these actions. If they do they can donate to the Recue Tellico fund to keep it moving. I would hope they would be supportive as the closure has cost the local economy more than was projected and I think the business community is feeling the loss. Any help is appreciated.

Actually,, Heath Shluer lost in Cherokee County and Clay County, but won enough of the other counties of District 11 to be re-elected (unfortunately).
Without a doubt,, this closure has had an adverse affect on the local economy.

This makes me ill. So are they gonna start selling some of the property for folks to put up their McMansions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawfords Campground
My biggest issue with this whole situation from the get-go is that SFWDA does not have a good PR program. All I and others have seen is just wait, can't tell you and send us some money or come to a meeting and then we may tell you something in hopes that you join SFWDA. I can tell you from my many years as a detective that people talk. They talk more if it is a secret. So, if SFWDA truely believes that the information they are letting out in these meetings are of any great importance then they are sadly mistaken. If they are releasing sensitive material in these meetings then god help us. I can tell you if it has been spoken in a meeting the FS, TU and or SELC knows about it! So, why not tell the masses the information that is being released at the meetings? I personally support SFWDA and have always had an issue with this. If you want peoples support you got to give them something for their money. Even Sally Struthers gives you a picture of a kid and tells you what they are doing to help each month and how the child is doing. I feel that giving information to people outside of the SFWDA organization is the right thing to do if you expect them to be involved $$$$$.

This. This is what I was saying but was obviously heated and came out as an attack against many. Not my intention and I apologize for the way it was worded but not for the point.The public sees it as I worded it above because the organizations involved keep the information to themselves and their meeting attending members. The public makes assumptions based on no information provided and it scares them away from giving. They too don't want to give and not know what is happening. They see money provided and the cause for the money destroyed. They don't know about the information put in the publications Mr. Del speaks of. Hell, I know multiple people in our wheeling community who don't even have internet access, so they don't even have access to the minute information we have. You should hear their assumptions as to what is going on.LOL.


Quote:
Originally Posted by YellowjeepCj
The NEPA action is underway and in the court system now BRC and SFWDA are carrying the flag on this one.

I have attached the NOI filed 1/25/11 by SFWDA. This is the beginning of a court action under the Clean Water Act. These third party actions can be very powerful.



Robbie, I am sorry you feel this way. let me try to answer some of your concerns. You are concerned about the Rescue Tellico fund monies. First, let me say some of the most accountable and prudent men with financial knowledge manage these monies. They are very careful how they are spent. Money from this fund has been used and continues to be used to fund and support building the case and paying for the court actions on our behalf to argue the decision made by the FS. Anytime you argue with the government it is expensive. Especially in an area that is technical in nature. Funds have been used to hire an engineering firm to develop a report and assessment of the trail conditions and make recommendations. This was used to build part of the case to file suit. Money has been used to pay for legal assistance to develop the filing, briefs and statements, Lawyers to participate in mediation, conference calls and strategy planning discussions, develop and file NOI's such as the one attached (two of these have been filed), hire certified sediment and erosion field inspector to make inspection of the trail obliteration work, as well as other associated costs for postage and so on. Amazingly, the fund has held it's own pretty well all because of generous donations from people like you.

It is important to realize every time an action is filed or a motion is presented ten's of thousands of dollars are expended in legal maneuvering. Therefore, it is important for the off road community to respond. It is also fair for the OHV community to expect to be informed of what is going on. When we begin to depose the FS and go into Court for the trial the expenses are certain to increase. We will be there soon with the NEPA suit. As far as the CWA Third Party suit we can't take action until the 60 day notice expires (on or about March 25, 2011) but we can file anytime after this date. These decisions are not taken lightly and we have to weigh the pros and cons of the actions as they are expensive. I hope this answers some of your concerns.

Director of Land Use and Conservation, SFWDA Hope to see you in Tracy City March 5.

This is the what the public should be hearing all along instead of send money and we are doing great things but we can't tell you about them unless you drive to our meetings. I do commend you for answering me with dignity and direct answers. Thank you. I have always stood behind land use programs and continue to do so, but the way the Tellico situation was handled and continues to be handled IN THE PUBLICS EYE is not what it should be. Keeping secrets and asking for more does not work. People give to causes they believe in so long as they continue to be informed as to where their money is going. This was my point all along but as I said was worded terribly and I apologize for that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeepndel
RedneckYJ, I trust you're not a member of BRC or Southern? Or at least haven't had a chance to keep up with all the magazine articles and such about BRC's role (and Southern) in the Tellico battle? It's mentioned (the current status of the lawsuit we're still in) every month in the BRC magazine.

It's a big mistake to get on Pirate and start up something when you don't have the facts or haven't done the homework -- well, let me say that this way: it's a big mistake to take a rant or a vent and start putting names and organizations to it when you don't know the full story. Hell, we all vent and rant on Pirate; but it needs to be factual and accurate if names are mentioned. That's the right thing to do.

BRC still has a legal action going and will be in court again April 15th (tax day) as it stands right now. Southern is still fighting. There is a lot to this and WE have not given up yet. Not sure why you have?

Del

First read above as I did apologize for my wording as I was upset.

Now on to the legal matter. TELLICO as we know it and have known it is GONE. It will not return. It has been DESTROYED and all we are fighting for now is the crumbs from the Forest Services table. The most we will get is another part of the forest for our use years down the road.

My point was this: We were asked to donate money and time to write letters to our congressmen and senators to SAVE TELLICO. We did this, despite the continued secrecy from the organizations involved, and we LOST TELLICO. On top of that we were continuously asked to keep donating without being informed of what was going on. We were only told time after time that they were doing great things but had to keep it a secret. I for one don't just continue to throw money at something without knowing where or what it is doing. Times are too tough at home to keep doing this. Had I(I'm speaking for myself here, but assume that others agree as I have had this conversation with many before) been kept in the loop so to speak I probably would have continued to donate. You don't go to Wal-Mart and hand them money for nothing, in this situation we were at the very least paying for information.This was the point I was trying to get at.
I apologize to any whose feelings got hurt as this was not my intention.
We are all on the same team
Thanks
Robbie

PS: Hope to see you guys on the trail. If you see me feel free to come say hi and we can have this conversation in person. One only grows intellectually by being challenged mentally.

Robbie:

No need to apologize to me. I am new at this and just trying to get the word out. Thanks for your consideration. You can always email me for more information any time. If I know I will tell you, if I don't I will try to find out.
thanks
Flint

I sincerely appreciate that and if you were to ever need an extra set of hands to help out then feel free to contact me. I wish you nothing but fair wishes with your future endeavors.
Thanks
Robbie

It seams to me that the people of Murphy and the surrounding area missed the opportunity to send a message when they did not vote Congressman Schuluer out of office for his stance on the FS action. I have no idea if the business community supports these actions. If they do they can donate to the Recue Tellico fund to keep it moving. I would hope they would be supportive as the closure has cost the local economy more than was projected and I think the business community is feeling the loss. Any help is appreciated.

I do agree that the people of Murphy and the surrounding areas missed the opportunity. I am sure with donating to the Rescue Tellico fund would help but untill these people stand up and help with the cause nothing will ever get done.
We need local support. These are the people that vote in their representives.
We can bitch and moan all we want. Give all the money we can, but untill the people in office realize the people that vote them in want this and they may loose their jobs if it does not happen it will fall on deaf ears.
That does include judges. They are elected officials too.

It's just frustrating to know what TU/SELC got away with.

Not yet. The latest is the USACE is investigating the FS activities for violations as per our filing the NOI under CWA. We will see what happens. No promises but things are moving a bit.

It seams to me that the people of Murphy and the surrounding area missed the opportunity to send a message when they did not vote Congressman Schuluer out of office for his stance on the FS action. I have no idea if the business community supports these actions. If they do they can donate to the Recue Tellico fund to keep it moving. I would hope they would be supportive as the closure has cost the local economy more than was projected and I think the business community is feeling the loss. Any help is appreciated.

What is the sentiment of the buisness owners in Murphy towards the economy and Tellico??? Do they acknowledge that the closure has had an effect on their buisness or do they just chalk it up to the bad economy??? Do they realize they have missed the bus???

This is my 2 pennies on that the subject of how much you guys are missed! I had a very long conversation with the newly elected County Commissioner David Wood about the soon after "Fired" County Manager David Badger and Tellico OHV situation. David Wood was well aware of how David Badger did not do anything to promote this County for really any type of economic development other that a useless upgrade for our Andrews Airport that no one uses other than the recently not re-elected Sen. Snow. So, with all that said, Yes...everyone one that had something directly to do with the visitors of the Tellico OHV are aware of the huge lack of revenue that this decision had on their business, such as Hotels, Resturants (Mainly Rib Country) and even the manager of WalMart told me that he believes that they have a significant impact as well. As far as the other businesses, they still have no clue how the money stream flows and the majority are out of business anyways. You should see all of the empty spaces in the plazas. Brother's Resturant and plaza is empty. They use the excuse that they needed to relocate into the city limits so they could sell some of that Devils Brew!
I discovered from the very beginning that the people running Murphy and the County had some type of issue with fighting the FS on this and so far the only reason I can come up with is that the waste treatment plant is located on FS poperty. Not sure if that was the only leverage the FS had or if all of these people were just stupid.
I just hope that the investigators are doing their jobs on the OHV area. I have absolutely no background on siltation, but it does not take a scientist to see obvious evidence of silt moving away from the work sites. Like I said Trail#4 is a mess and with the movement of fresh soil from the slopes, frost thaw cycle, Flash flood rain events and no protection from run off there is no way the area is better off than when it was loved and maintained by the people that used it.
One more interesting fact is that I get the AMA rag and it is 2/3 full of "Holy shit the Goverment is closing everthing down to motorized vehicles". We have to stop this crap once and for all!:mad3:

MAYBE WE NEED TO PICK A DAY OF RAGE LIKE EVERYONE IN THE MIDDLE EAST! or meet with the FS and ask them if we can plant flowers on the trails. I think all the colors of the RAINBOW would be fitting.:flipoff2:

MAYBE WE NEED TO PICK A DAY OF RAGE LIKE EVERYONE IN THE MIDDLE EAST! or meet with the FS and ask them if we can plant flowers on the trails. I think all the colors of the RAINBOW would be fitting.:flipoff2:
Could do that.
Maybe even do something that someone else suggested way back.
Everyone get 2 dollar bills. Write we miss Tellico on the back. Go to town and spend it on what ever. Let the people who own businesses know what they are missing.
Heck it would not even have to be 2 dollar bills. Any money that is spent in town.
Wonder if you could get that on a penny.
Is Tellico Cabins still around?

"David Wood was well aware of how David Badger did not do anything to promote this County for really any type of economic development other that a useless upgrade for our Andrews Airport that no one uses other than the recently not re-elected Sen. Snow. "

I own a plane and fly weekly. I was looking for a place the buy to keep my buggy in the area to wheel on the weekend. I know at least 2 other pilots that were looking to do the same thing. One guy has a jet!

If the dumb asses had helped keep the trails open I pormise that airport would get more business

Tellico cabins is still there, however everything has changed for Chuck and Helen. They split up and the last I talked to Chuck he pretty much has become a hermit. He told me that he has no internet and lives up top alone. I know that he has started doing sign work and has been working back and fourth in Florida too. He has a couple cabins rented with month to month people as well and doing his best to stay afloat like the rest of us.

Times are hard enough as it is. We don't need our government making them even harder.

Tellico cabins is still there, however everything has changed for Chuck and Helen. They split up and the last I talked to Chuck he pretty much has become a hermit. He told me that he has no internet and lives up top alone. I know that he has started doing sign work and has been working back and fourth in Florida too. He has a couple cabins rented with month to month people as well and doing his best to stay afloat like the rest of us.
Wow hope things work out for Chuck and Helen.
They are good people.

I was through Murphy last Sunday, and the difference in the town before and after the closing is visible. Much less traffic and activity. The whole situation is pitiful.

I spent my vacation and several hundred dollars this week in a different town when I otherwise would have been at Tellico 'wheeling and spending money in town.

http://www.sfwda.org/docs/SFWDA-Citizen_Suit_Notice_Ltr_24Jan11.pdf

Notice letter Filed January 25th 2011. Please read.

http://www.sfwda.org/docs/SFWDA-Citizen_Suit_Notice_Ltr_24Jan11.pdf

Notice letter Filed January 25th 2011. Please read.

Wow!!! That was interesting to read.

I want to believe that the FS doesn't have a leg to stand on with all those violations, kudos to Southern, now hopefully every one can see there money and efforts finally did get put to use.

Ok,so say their is judgement against the FS,then what???? Who will hold them accountable??? Whats it gonna mean for us????? Would it be a bargainin chip for any future OHV trails???? Has anybody heard what TU's response is to all of the sediment that is now bein put into the water???? With as many eye's/ears as they seem to have at Tellico surely they know about it.

Ok,so say their is judgement against the FS,then what???? Who will hold them accountable??? Whats it gonna mean for us????? Would it be a bargainin chip for any future OHV trails???? Has anybody heard what TU's response is to all of the sediment that is now bein put into the water???? With as many eye's/ears as they seem to have at Tellico surely they know about it.

All depends on the judge as far as what a judgment might mean.

All of us will need to hold them accountable.

Hopefully access to OHV trails somewhere in the system.

Yes.

TU is quiet. I don't think they wanted complete closure.

TU is quiet. I don't think they wanted complete closure.

bullshit. If they hadn't wanted complete closure they could have done this outside of the court system by working directly with the groups responsible for trail maintenance.

They knew it was all or nothing when it went to court, and that's why they pursued it so vigorously.

The logging pictures I saw made me sad.

No, you are wrong. SELC went for the throat, not TU.

No, you are wrong. SELC went for the throat, not TU.

you are correct. SELC pushed it into court, but wasn't it at the behest of TU? Perhaps it got a bit out of hand for TU at that point, but they had to know who they were dealing with.

I really kind of just lost interest, it's clear to me that Tellico is lost forever. :( We'll just have to pick up the fight somewhere else.

Wonder at what point the SELC will kick TU under the bus.Those guys have got to know it's comin.

Probably a matter of time

Just a little side bar, but TU was in the paper crying over the closure of a Trout Hatchery somewhere in North GA. They are pulling out all of the statistical information of economic impact to get the people to pressure the government to fund the thing. It is kind of ironic they sound just like the offroad crowd as Tellico was under attack! Who would have thought that the Trout would be under attack. It sure would have been nice to have worked with the Tellico OHV users and then we could have had their back when they needed help. I guess they thought no one would attack their form of recreation.
I totally disagree with the notion that TU didn't want the closure of the area. Squeek was the main man pushing that charge and they made a deal with the devil(SEIU) to make it so. I read their forum posts and articles during this attack as well. The only time they made a statement that they didn't want a total closure was when we would point the finger at them, but would just say the whole park is an environmental disaster and we just want it fixed. A political spin, kinda like Sen Snow saying "I support the off road park, just not the traffic".
This my friends is just a little taste of what the extreme left has in store for us all. Can't wait until the Lefties are able to get the EPA to regulate dust particulate in the air caused from dirt roads. That will be the end of off pavement recreation all together.:mad3:

is anyone going to bring up the new trails they're trying to open nearby?

http://www.nc4x4.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109188

could mean good things for you Danny :grinpimp:

Not a member of that Forum at the moment. Not sure if you are talking about the Thrasher property that backs up to Tellico OHV, but I heard from a little birdie that there are some trails being built in there as we speak. There are two entrances from over this way. One off boiling springs and the other off trail #6.

yeah I am. I'm actually pretty stoked about it but I'm keeping my enthusiasm to a simmer until it all shakes out.

I got that info about a month ago but it sounded like a rumor. I have been asked by a County Commissioner to be on the Tourism/Economic Board and this may be something Cherokee and Grahm County can work together on. If Grahm gets involved solely then more than likely the place will only be accessed from Robinsville. Really no bennifit to us over this way, however if we can work something out then the entrance off Boiling Springs Rd could be an access from our county as well as Hyatt Creek Rd for Robinsville. Everyone wins in that situation. I will post up something as soon as I can get some face time with the Cherokee County leaders.

Go here http://www.sfwda.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=452 and check it out. SFWDA has been involved from the inception working with the County and the property owner.

Go here http://www.sfwda.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=452 and check it out. SFWDA has been involved from the inception working with the County and the property owner.

was Southern represented at the meeting they had a couple days ago? how many people went to the meeting?

We were notified about the meeting the same afternoon it was taking place. We put out a request to see if someone could attend. I sent a letter to the Commission stating our position. You can read the letter here http://www.sfwda.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=452

We did hear from the author of the article that was in the paper. While she did not attend the meeeting she heard there were about 30 folks who showed up in opposition and spoke during the public hearing part of the commission meeting. Ms. Brantley, Tourism and Travel Director, for Graham County attended to answer their questions. However, the author of the article in the paper indicated she felt like the Commission cooled to the idea based on the outcry from the people that showed up for the meeting. I will try to call Ms. Brantley Friday and try to get a temperature reading. One option mentioned as an alternative would be to access from the Cherokee side. However, I bwlieve this puts you on the wrong side of the property for the 50 ac rock crawl.

As far as I know no one from SFWDA was able to attend the meeting on the short notice. We will continue to support the County and assist where possible and keep you all up to date on the situation.

Honestly guys it's just sad how these WNC Counties continue to not see the possible tourism benefits that OHV ares would produce for them! I got bad news below is the email from Zelerie Rose the reporter for the Graham Star newspaper:

Well Andrew bad news... Commissioners voted down the OHV idea so Graham County won’t be getting it. However, the man who owns the property has a road in from the Cherokee County side and could possibly lease the property to them. Apparently he isn’t too neighborly to the Snowbird residents. They don’t seem to like him very much. I personally don’t know the man but he might be willing to talk with you guys about doing something out there. Only thing I know is his name..Tom Thrash. You might could get a number from Travel and Tourism director Cheri Brantley. I hate commissioners won’t even consider the idea but that’s Graham County for you. Anyway, just thought I’d pass it on.

Zelerie Rose
The Graham Star
P.O.Box 69
Robbinsville, N.C. 28771
828-479-3383
zrose@grahamstar.com

Just got a clarification from Zelerie:

On Thu, Mar 24, 2011 at 12:04 PM, zrose <zrose@grahamstar.com> wrote:
It wasn’t a commissioner meeting Andrew, it was the Travel and Tourism meeting that occurred yesterday and it was that board that voted it down, not the commissioners. I didn’t attend the meeting and was hearing everything second hand, but the editor did go and he just clarified that for me. But it was a unanimous decision by the board members.

I hear that the issue is with the access road. It is a private road owned and maintained by the landowners. I understand that they are upset with Mr. Thrash because he uses the road for access to his property but has not assisted with any of the maintenance at all. Therefore, they rallied against the plan.

The road into that area is a complete mess right after the thaw starts and it seems to be a maintenance nightmare. I ride Dual Sport back in that area and the residents give you the evil eye, yet I have been just about plowed over a couple of times with UTV's and ATV's blasting around corners. Usually kids with no helmets...kinda like the representation photographed in the news paper article.
Anyways, I had a talk with Commissioner David Wood and he not only supports the idea of the OHV area he is motivated. The funny thing is that no one was aware of this situation on the commission. I am supposed to be offically on the Tourism Board next week and plan on running with the idea. A couple of things that I will suggest is that Cherokee County have access through all of the right of ways into the area. That means, Hyatt Creek Rd in Andrews, Boiling Springs Rd in Murphy and Trail #6 at the Tennessee side. The reason for this is that none of the residents would agree on one main entrance to this area because of the constant traffic. I would get complaints out here for local residents all the time about being run off the road by trailers hauling the rigs, people getting stuck behind a slow moving caravan of crawlers and just the noise. So, as a property owner, who would really just agree to that. However a selling point with multuple access points would break up the traffic and should make the situation better. Another thing is that I realize that SFWDA wants access to the rocky area and that seems to be a priory. It really seems that we need to give all of the potential OHV users the vision that this place is going to offer equal opportunities to all users. We need to embrace the MC and ATV users as well. I even think that this area even could have great potential for Mountain Bikers too. I just think we need all of the enthusiasm we can muster if we are going to get anywhere with this.
If everything works out, this will be my pet project and I look forward to working with everyone on this.

Glad to hear the offroad voice will have an "in" with the Tourism Board.
Thanks for stepping up!

If there is anything we can do let us know.

Back ti Tellico: It has been 60 days since the NOI was filed, was or is there going to be a suit brought?

The road into that area is a complete mess right after the thaw starts and it seems to be a maintenance nightmare. I ride Dual Sport back in that area and the residents give you the evil eye, yet I have been just about plowed over a couple of times with UTV's and ATV's blasting around corners. Usually kids with no helmets...kinda like the representation photographed in the news paper article.
Anyways, I had a talk with Commissioner David Wood and he not only supports the idea of the OHV area he is motivated. The funny thing is that no one was aware of this situation on the commission. I am supposed to be offically on the Tourism Board next week and plan on running with the idea. A couple of things that I will suggest is that Cherokee County have access through all of the right of ways into the area. That means, Hyatt Creek Rd in Andrews, Boiling Springs Rd in Murphy and Trail #6 at the Tennessee side. The reason for this is that none of the residents would agree on one main entrance to this area because of the constant traffic. I would get complaints out here for local residents all the time about being run off the road by trailers hauling the rigs, people getting stuck behind a slow moving caravan of crawlers and just the noise. So, as a property owner, who would really just agree to that. However a selling point with multuple access points would break up the traffic and should make the situation better. Another thing is that I realize that SFWDA wants access to the rocky area and that seems to be a priory. It really seems that we need to give all of the potential OHV users the vision that this place is going to offer equal opportunities to all users. We need to embrace the MC and ATV users as well. I even think that this area even could have great potential for Mountain Bikers too. I just think we need all of the enthusiasm we can muster if we are going to get anywhere with this.
If everything works out, this will be my pet project and I look forward to working with everyone on this.

I have a friend who has been working on these trails in Graham County and even though the county deal seems to be gone,, they plan to have a private ORV area. He said that anyone interested could direct comments/questions to http://snowbirdanglers.com (and don't be fooled by the word anglers).
Sorry, I don't have any details,, but they are still working on these trails and planning on access from the Boiling Springs side

Back ti Tellico: It has been 60 days since the NOI was filed, was or is there going to be a suit brought?

You are correct that the 60 day notice has expired. We are now able to file a CWA Citizen suit. This is something that will be discussed and coordinated with the existing suit that has been filed. The answer is that we don't know yet. There are still things in the works we need to follow up on as a result of the NOI. There is no limit on time now. We can file today or on the 180 day etc and we are still valid.

Remember, that anything we do in the way of court action is expensive and we have to weigh all the pros and cons and be good stewards of the resources we have.

You are correct that the 60 day notice has expired. We are now able to file a CWA Citizen suit. This is something that will be discussed and coordinated with the existing suit that has been filed. The answer is that we don't know yet. There are still things in the works we need to follow up on as a result of the NOI. There is no limit on time now. We can file today or on the 180 day etc and we are still valid.

Remember, that anything we do in the way of court action is expensive and we have to weigh all the pros and cons and be good stewards of the resources we have.

Ok did I miss something... there is another lawsuit that was filed? who or what suit is that?

We have filed the suit under the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA). This suit is ongoing. The briefs from each side are due April 15th. Then their is a review period and counter Briefs are filed. The Judge will review this and decide if he wants to hear arguments in the case or if he can decide the case based on the Briefs. This lawsuit was filed by SFWDA and BRC in NC.

We also filed a NOI under the Clean Water Act third party citizen suit provisions related to the Trail Obliteration Project conducted by the FS. This was solely a SFWDA action. This was done because the FS failed to secure the appropriate permits for the work they did in removing the trails. NO suit has been filed as a result of this Notice of Intent but the 60 days of notice have expired. So we can file the suit if we so desire. We are working with a couple of response to the letter to see where these lead. Any action here must be coordinated and be complimentary to the NEPA action. We also have to be mindful of resources if we have two suits ongoing.

Here is a link to the NOI http://www.sfwda.org/docs/SFWDA-Citi...tr_24Jan11.pdf

We are seeing a trend in Region 8 of the FS where they are pushing OHV recreation out of our national Forest in the Southeastern US. We are seeing the same approach used at Tellico is being used in Daniel Boone near Slade, Ky. SFWDA is engaged in this one also. The trails have not been closed but we were ahead of the game there after experiencing what went down in Tellico.

Unfortunately, these fights take time and are slow and people lose interest in them. Everyone is looking for instant gratification and when things don't happen quickly, interest wains. The lack of interest puts a strain on resources and so one must carefully select the actions pursued to obtain the maximum benefit in results.

Ghost, you did not miss anything and I hope I answered your question.

We have filed the suit under the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA). This suit is ongoing. The briefs from each side are due April 15th. Then their is a review period and counter Briefs are filed. The Judge will review this and decide if he wants to hear arguments in the case or if he can decide the case based on the Briefs. This lawsuit was filed by SFWDA and BRC in NC.

We also filed a NOI under the Clean Water Act third party citizen suit provisions related to the Trail Obliteration Project conducted by the FS. This was solely a SFWDA action. This was done because the FS failed to secure the appropriate permits for the work they did in removing the trails. NO suit has been filed as a result of this Notice of Intent but the 60 days of notice have expired. So we can file the suit if we so desire. We are working with a couple of response to the letter to see where these lead. Any action here must be coordinated and be complimentary to the NEPA action. We also have to be mindful of resources if we have two suits ongoing.

Here is a link to the NOI http://www.sfwda.org/docs/SFWDA-Citi...tr_24Jan11.pdf

We are seeing a trend in Region 8 of the FS where they are pushing OHV recreation out of our national Forest in the Southeastern US. We are seeing the same approach used at Tellico is being used in Daniel Boone near Slade, Ky. SFWDA is engaged in this one also. The trails have not been closed but we were ahead of the game there after experiencing what went down in Tellico.

Unfortunately, these fights take time and are slow and people lose interest in them. Everyone is looking for instant gratification and when things don't happen quickly, interest wains. The lack of interest puts a strain on resources and so one must carefully select the actions pursued to obtain the maximum benefit in results.

Ghost, you did not miss anything and I hope I answered your question.

Yea I did. I am not familure with the NEPA at all. Is there some info on that floating around?

Do you know what Judge will hear the arguments? Are they local or picked more or less out of a hat?
What kind of money are we talking about for the Judge and the case?

TSEJEEPERS Do you know what Judge will hear the arguments? Are they local or picked more or less out of a hat?
What kind of money are we talking about for the Judge and the case?

Judge as now assigned Martin Reidinger, 200 U.S. Courthouse Building
100 Otis Street Asheville , NC 28801 In the US District court Western District of NC. http://http://www.ncwd.uscourts.gov/News/Main.aspx

I don't know the judges are assigned. Probably workload, maybe expertise etc.

The cost of a court case is very hard to predict. There are so many variables involved. If the judge decides to hear the case it will be more expensive than if he makes a decision from the Briefs. However, usually you can count on tens of thousands and many cases hundreds of thousands given the situation. If you have expert witnesses, depositions, travel, court reporters, lawyers, review of records, and on and on the cost can add quickly. On the positive side it is a slow process and the costs are spread out over time. That is why the fund raising component is so very important for a non-profit group to stay ahead of the costs. The negative is that it goes so slow folks lose interest and forget about it or decide all is lost and cease to support the effort.

Ghost Yea I did. I am not familiar with the NEPA at all. Is there some info on that floating around?

You can do a Google search for NEPA and you will find a ton of information. The EA developed by the FS was the first step of compliance with NEPA the finding of no significant impact followed. You can see the EA on the FS website, I think. If not I can send to you.

updates?

NEPA= Still working through the record developing briefs that are due on the 15th.

CWA NOI = Still collecting bits and pieces of information (i.e. work in stream side Management zone during the prohibition period) and so on. Have not decided on filing the CWA third party suit yet.

Resources- Fund Raising continues and are looking at some new options. Trying to think out of the proverbial box. Any ideas are welcome.

Resources- Fund Raising continues and are looking at some new options. Trying to think out of the proverbial box. Any ideas are welcome.

It would help to know what kinda $$ amount is needed and what amount has been raised.

April 15th is tomorrow, I'll be interested in an update.

Will let you know as soon as i know. we did have some movement with EPA this week on the CWA NOI.

nothing new here, but thought you guys should know about the article --> http://www.grahamstar.com/articles/2011/04/13/news/doc4d96224998add587370976.txt

"Opponent Lou Farless said there are other ideas better suited to bring tourists into the county, including a museum devoted to logging, pioneer living and Native Americans."



Yeah, I would surely drive up 8 hours from the beach, stay at one of their hotels/motels, eat at their restaurants, buy a couple hundred dollars in fuel, and bring about 3 other groups of people that would utilize similar services for a logging museum :rolleyes: Way to get your county out of an economic slump by having a $5.00(est) a person logging museum in an old general store. It would probably cost more to staff the museum with an attendant than what it would bring in. Maybe I'm wrong, there might be a few of you all out there.

I wish we would have known about the meeting sooner...

-H

In the way of an update on the APA lawsuit.

All parties in the case asked for an extension of 30 days for filing briefs to the Court and for an extra 10 pages for the filing. The Court has approved the extension so the schedule is to file Briefs by May 15, cross motions by June 1, Plaintiffs file responsive briefs by August 15, Defendants file responsive briefs by October 1. then Court begins review and will decide on oral arguements.

In the way of an update on the APA lawsuit.

All parties in the case asked for an extension of 30 days for filing briefs to the Court and for an extra 10 pages for the filing. The Court has approved the extension so the schedule is to file Briefs by May 15, cross motions by June 1, Plaintiffs file responsive briefs by August 15, Defendants file responsive briefs by October 1. then Court begins review and will decide on oral arguements.

Thanks for your continued efforts on this.

In the way of an update on the APA lawsuit.

All parties in the case asked for an extension of 30 days for filing briefs to the Court and for an extra 10 pages for the filing. The Court has approved the extension so the schedule is to file Briefs by May 15, cross motions by June 1, Plaintiffs file responsive briefs by August 15, Defendants file responsive briefs by October 1. then Court begins review and will decide on oral arguements.

Thanks for your continued efforts on this.

x2

In the way of an update on the APA lawsuit.

All parties in the case asked for an extension of 30 days for filing briefs to the Court and for an extra 10 pages for the filing. The Court has approved the extension so the schedule is to file Briefs by May 15, cross motions by June 1, Plaintiffs file responsive briefs by August 15, Defendants file responsive briefs by October 1. then Court begins review and will decide on oral arguements.

Thanks for the update!

Keep up the good work.

"Opponent Lou Farless said there are other ideas better suited to bring tourists into the county, including a museum devoted to logging, pioneer living and Native Americans."



Yeah, I would surely drive up 8 hours from the beach, stay at one of their hotels/motels, eat at their restaurants, buy a couple hundred dollars in fuel, and bring about 3 other groups of people that would utilize similar services for a logging museum :rolleyes: Way to get your county out of an economic slump by having a $5.00(est) a person logging museum in an old general store. It would probably cost more to staff the museum with an attendant than what it would bring in. Maybe I'm wrong, there might be a few of you all out there.

I wish we would have known about the meeting sooner...

-H

You are absolutely right. This is the type of people I'm dealing with on the tourism board here in Cherokee. They don't really want any real tourism other than that. I'm fighting for a change in that mentality here as well. They want the tourism dollars that Gatlinburg has, but not the traffic. I don't get it!:mad3:

We have filed the suit under the National Environmental Policy Act (NEPA). This suit is ongoing. The briefs from each side are due April 15th. Then their is a review period and counter Briefs are filed. The Judge will review this and decide if he wants to hear arguments in the case or if he can decide the case based on the Briefs. This lawsuit was filed by SFWDA and BRC in NC.

We also filed a NOI under the Clean Water Act third party citizen suit provisions related to the Trail Obliteration Project conducted by the FS. This was solely a SFWDA action. This was done because the FS failed to secure the appropriate permits for the work they did in removing the trails. NO suit has been filed as a result of this Notice of Intent but the 60 days of notice have expired. So we can file the suit if we so desire. We are working with a couple of response to the letter to see where these lead. Any action here must be coordinated and be complimentary to the NEPA action. We also have to be mindful of resources if we have two suits ongoing.

Here is a link to the NOI http://www.sfwda.org/docs/SFWDA-Citi...tr_24Jan11.pdf

We are seeing a trend in Region 8 of the FS where they are pushing OHV recreation out of our national Forest in the Southeastern US. We are seeing the same approach used at Tellico is being used in Daniel Boone near Slade, Ky. SFWDA is engaged in this one also. The trails have not been closed but we were ahead of the game there after experiencing what went down in Tellico.

Unfortunately, these fights take time and are slow and people lose interest in them. Everyone is looking for instant gratification and when things don't happen quickly, interest wains. The lack of interest puts a strain on resources and so one must carefully select the actions pursued to obtain the maximum benefit in results.

Ghost, you did not miss anything and I hope I answered your question.


I applaud you for the time and effort you put into informing us of what your able to so dont take this the wrong way, Im not bashing you in anyway.... But, the biggest reason everyone lost interest in helping was because everyong was told to shut up and keep everything all hush hush behind closed doors. I can definately tell you southern will NOT get another dime from me until this issue is taken care of.

Southern could learn a thing or two on the way the situation is being handled out in Johnson Valley. That is how you step up and fight. I blame SFWDA for pretty much single handedly losing the fight for Tellico.

In the way of an update on the APA lawsuit.

All parties in the case asked for an extension of 30 days for filing briefs to the Court and for an extra 10 pages for the filing. The Court has approved the extension so the schedule is to file Briefs by May 15, cross motions by June 1, Plaintiffs file responsive briefs by August 15, Defendants file responsive briefs by October 1. then Court begins review and will decide on oral arguements.

So what happened? May and June have come and gone.....

Our lawyers have filed briefs before the court. We are now waiting for the defendants to file counter briefs and the judge to decide to hear the case or make a decision off of the briefs.

Southern could learn a thing or two on the way the situation is being handled out in Johnson Valley. That is how you step up and fight. I blame SFWDA for pretty much single handedly losing the fight for Tellico.

Redneckengineered:

What specifically would you like for Southern to learn from the Johnson Valley effort?

Are you willing to become active enough to teach us what we don't know?

First, Tellico is not in California and does not have 200,000 annual users from model test rocket launching to hikers. Second, Tellico was not a host to a off road race that drew 20,000 spectators.

Please help teach us how to do it. We have another fight in the works that we could use your vision and knowledge. This area is not as used as Tellico but certainly some challenging trails and still frequently visited by people from miles around. This area is strategic in the onslaught to prevent OHV operation in Region 8.

Any constructive advice you can provide is welcome.

Redneckengineered:

What specifically would you like for Southern to learn from the Johnson Valley effort?

Are you willing to become active enough to teach us what we don't know?

First, Tellico is not in California and does not have 200,000 annual users from model test rocket launching to hikers. Second, Tellico was not a host to a off road race that drew 20,000 spectators.

Please help teach us how to do it. We have another fight in the works that we could use your vision and knowledge. This area is not as used as Tellico but certainly some challenging trails and still frequently visited by people from miles around. This area is strategic in the onslaught to prevent OHV operation in Region 8.

Any constructive advice you can provide is welcome.

All the info you request has been covered here in this forum over and over. Southern dropped the ball, we all paid for it. No need to hash it out again.

what is this other area that is in trouble?

All the info you request has been covered here in this forum over and over. Southern dropped the ball, we all paid for it. No need to hash it out again.


Southern dropped the ball? It looks to me that for the last four years Southern has done exactly they have been told to do by BRC and its attorneys. And why not? Southern doesn't have any past experience with this sort of thing. It was BRC and their attorneys that have all the experience fighting this sort of thing in court! Why wouldn't Southern listen to them? If you don't believe me, here are two quotes that support my views and there are more that "have been covered here in this forum over and over." Look them up.


[From August 2007 Press Release in response to SELC/TU NOI]
Southern Four Wheel Drive Association is working with the BlueRibbon Coalition and United Four Wheel Drive Associations and their attorneys to ensure that motorized recreation stakeholders interests are protected when legal proceedings are initiated by the involved parties.

[From May 2008 Press Release]
SFWDA, UFWDA, BRC files Law Suit

On Thursday, May 22, 2008, The Southern Four Wheel Drive Association (SFWDA) along with United Four Wheel Drive Associations (UFWDA) and the Blue Ribbon Coalition (BRC) filed suit in US District Court Western District of North Carolina against the US Forest Service to restore access to improperly closed off-highway recreation trails located in the Upper Tellico Off-highway Vehicle (OHV) Area in North Carolina.


Prior to June 2007 the biggest problem facing Southern was getting volunteers and materials to the work days that were scheduled. There wasn't talk of closures. There wasn't a fight.

Southern may be a convenient scapegoat now but they didn't drop the ball. They ran the play they were told to run.

So exactly what should have been done different?

what is this other area that is in trouble?

x2

MsMarbury you are correct

Southern, United and BlueRibbon all worked together on the Tellico issue (and it's not over yet in court). When groups like this come "to the table" group decisions are made based on what is known at the time and based on the interest of the group. It's a team approach and respected leaders/professionals are listened to; but it's still a team approach.
Del

It's a team approach and respected leaders/professionals are listened to; but it's still a team approach.
Del

notice it's only "respected leaders/professionals". so it's not really a team effort is it?

edit: it must be a selective "team"

notice it's only "respected leaders/professionals". so it's not really a team effort is it?

edit: it must be a selective "team"

Nick, I know you're pissed about whatever happened with you, Southern and whatever. I understand that. But are you really helping the cause here, or just stirring? Seems to me we'd be better off trying to make this work; trying to keep Tellico open; and trying to work together, rather than stirring.
Del

the point we're trying to make is that everybody got so sick of all the secrecy that they lost interest.

Nick, I know you're pissed about whatever happened with you, Southern and whatever. I understand that. But are you really helping the cause here, or just stirring? Seems to me we'd be better off trying to make this work; trying to keep Tellico open; and trying to work together, rather than stirring.
Del

actually I'm pissed at you. I wrote Southern off a while back.

the point we're trying to make is that everybody got so sick of all the secrecy that they lost interest.

Brad gets it.

actually I'm pissed at you. I wrote Southern off a while back.

Well, good for you. You certainly aren't first in line with that. I hope it stirs you to get more involved and productive in landuse and access, from a positive standpoint in the future. Turn that into something useful that will help save the next trail in jeopardy that you like.
Del

Well, good for you. You certainly aren't first in line with that. I hope it stirs you to get more involved and productive in landuse and access, from a positive standpoint in the future. Turn that into something useful that will help save the next trail in jeopardy that you like.
Del

actually, it turned me the complete 180. I don't see the point anymore. How can the "common man" get involved when the hand picked "team" calls all the shots. Unless, I go along with what you want all my efforts are in vain. I'll my ideas are null and void unless they align with you. Tell me I'm wrong.

I'll leave it at that since you guys seem to want to drum up some kind of support again. Good luck with that.

I can definately tell you southern will NOT get another dime from me.

FIFY

I love it when I hear statements such as this:

Southern, United and BlueRibbon all worked together on the Tellico issue (and it's not over yet in court).


Boys, it was over the day they excavating equipment showed up and started tearing things all to hell. Have you SEEN Tellico lately? I have and if it was reopened tommorrow (which will never happen) it's faded remnant of what it once was that would never be the trip for me to ride on.

If you guys would have been 1/2 as committed to fight 3 years ago when it was being taken away as you are now claiming you were we wouldn't be here, end of story.

the point we're trying to make is that everybody got so sick of all the secrecy that they lost interest.

Exactly ^

^^^x2...but on te other hand I almost blame the town of Murphy single handedly. A community could have done leaps and bounds more work than volunteers that live hours away. If half of the businesses would have seen the writing on the wall and the trails put food on their tables it would still be open. That town was booming every holiday and event weekends. Murphy took it for granted period.

And that ^

why is this thread not closed....................like tellico???????????

http://www.fs.usda.gov/wps/portal/fsinternet/!ut/p/c4/04_SB8K8xLLM9MSSzPy8xBz9CP0os3gjAwhwtDDw9_AI8zPyhQ oY6BdkOyoCAGixyPg!/?ss=110811&navtype=BROWSEBYSUBJECT&cid=STELPRDB5311850&navid=180000000000000&pnavid=null&position=News&ttype=detail&pname=National%20Forests%20in%20North%20Carolina-%20News%20&%20Events

The latest,,,,:shaking:

"The Forest Service will construct a new route that will bypass steep switchbacks, which will be eliminated and restored to natural grade."

great, thats what we need, a Highway through the woods...

That seems to be what their plan is...

"The Forest Service will construct a new route that will bypass steep switchbacks, which will be eliminated and restored to natural grade."

great, thats what we need, a Highway through the woods...

Hmm, follow the money . . . the “road improvement” seems to fit right in!

IMHO, it’s all about Real Estate, Planned Communities and River Front properties! Can’t have all those damn OHVs buzzing around ruining the peace and quiet for potential buyers. This is just one small example out of many.

Murphy, North Carolina – Perfectly Positioned to Capture Second Home and Retiree Demand

"North Carolina consistently has one of the highest in-migration rates of any state in the country. The mountains of Western Carolina benefit from strong demand from second home buyers and retirees coming out of the Atlanta and Florida markets. Numerous residential developments in the mountains of Western North Carolina have been successful at tapping the strong demand for mountain home sites.

Murphy was just referenced in Forbes as one of the top ten developing second home markets in the U.S."

http://www.cbre.com/NR/rdonlyres/23E534A6-B2D5-4CD9-AA45-F46E069D64E8/0/HiwasseeRiverPropertyOverview.pdf


Notice the direct connection in the link below from Richard C. Blum (AKA CBRE) up one to “The Wilderness Society”, up one to “Theodore Roosevelt IV” and then a 90 degree turn to the right . . . it lands on “Trout Unlimited”!!!

http://www.muckety.com/Query?graph=MucketyMap&SearchResult=14289&SearchResult=1326

I always thought development was behind the whole thing.
All the years the place operated just fine , then one day they decided to run power all the way to the pay station. Soon as those green boxes started showing up on the side of the gravel road I thought something was up.

I always thought development was behind the whole thing.

Gotta know thy enemy and it ain’t us, or the groups who support us!

So as some wiser ass than me once said (and I’ve modified it slightly) . . .

”There's no reason why we should abdicate our foundational principles because certain groups don't believe in them. No majority should surrender its deeply held beliefs to those who don't believe in anything but the money!!!

I always thought development was behind the whole thing.

Gotta know thy enemy and it ain’t us, or the groups who support us!

So as some wiser ass than me once said (and I’ve modified it slightly) . . .

”There's no reason why we should abdicate our foundational principles because certain groups don't believe in them. No majority should surrender its deeply held beliefs to those who don't believe in anything but the money!!!
Well said!!

FIFY

I love it when I hear statements such as this:




Boys, it was over the day they excavating equipment showed up and started tearing things all to hell. Have you SEEN Tellico lately? I have and if it was reopened tommorrow (which will never happen) it's faded remnant of what it once was that would never be the trip for me to ride on.

If you guys would have been 1/2 as committed to fight 3 years ago when it was being taken away as you are now claiming you were we wouldn't be here, end of story.


So how come the illegal mexicans can file a lawsuit and get an injunction the next day from a judge to keep them from getting arrested in AZ and GA but
it takes years to get a lawsuit going about Tellico???????

FIFY

I love it when I hear statements such as this:




Boys, it was over the day they excavating equipment showed up and started tearing things all to hell. Have you SEEN Tellico lately? I have and if it was reopened tommorrow (which will never happen) it's faded remnant of what it once was that would never be the trip for me to ride on.

If you guys would have been 1/2 as committed to fight 3 years ago when it was being taken away as you are now claiming you were we wouldn't be here, end of story.


So how come the illegal mexicans can file a lawsuit and get an injunction the next day from a judge to keep them from getting arrested in AZ and GA but
it takes years to get a lawsuit going about Tellico???????
Cause it's all about the mighty $$$!! They have big money lawyers just waitin for a chance to try a case like that, wanting make a name for themselves. I know there's alot of no tax payin brick layin mofos out there but look at the revenue that would be lost instantly in communities in the southwest. Grocery stores, gas stations and prob thousands of messican food joints. They may not pay taxes but they have to spend it somewhere.

So how come the illegal mexicans can file a lawsuit and get an injunction the next day from a judge to keep them from getting arrested in AZ and GA but
it takes years to get a lawsuit going about Tellico???????

Back on topic!

Here's why . . . http://www.tu.org/atf/cf/%7BED0023C4-EA23-4396-9371-8509DC5B4953%7D/TellicoORVArea60Daynotice.pdf

Back on topic!

Here's why . . . http://www.tu.org/atf/cf/%7BED0023C4-EA23-4396-9371-8509DC5B4953%7D/TellicoORVArea60Daynotice.pdf

so, wanna explain i in real english?

so, wanna explain i in real english?

You got it. Trout Unlimited tied their horse to the group known as PEER, which is tied to about every attempt to STOP what we do; CLOSE every trail we use for the most part; and KEEP us from using our public lands in motors.

PEER and Center for Biological Diversity (CBD) are the tag team of STOP - OHV use in America. They don't care if we do it responsibly; they don't care if we do it right; they just don't want us doing it.

Too back Tennessee TU tied in with them. They are now the enemy.
Del

BTW, "PEER" stands for "Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility".

Here's a link to their web site . . . http://www.peer.org/

Here are search results from their site using the key words "Trout Unlimited" . . . http://www.google.com/search?q=Trout+Unlimited&sitesearch=peer.org


Their Tellico brag . . .

"Sportsmen and conservation groups have repeatedly asked the Forest Service to rein in damaging ORV traffic, but the agency has taken little effective action. In their letter today, the groups – the North Carolina and Tennessee Councils of Trout Unlimited, Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility (PEER), and the Southern Appalachian Biodiversity Project – notified the Forest Service of their intent to sue for repeated violations of the Clean Water Act and other laws."

Link to brag . . . http://www.peer.org/news/news_id.php?row_id=880


Link to their "Off-Road Wreckreation - Home" page, the title of which speaks for itself . . . http://www.peer.org/campaigns/publiclands/orv/index.php


. . . and then there is the group "Rangers for Responsible Recreation" who are so tightly tied to "PEER" that they don't even have a web site, because they are a "project" of PEER.


Here's a link to a Google search using their name . . . http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=Rangers+for+Responsible+Recreation&aq=0v&aqi=g-v1&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=c488823cce0a6f39&biw=1093&bih=444


Note that they are all for recreating responsibly . . . “Off-road abuse is unquestionably a top threat to hunting and fishing in America ,” said Mike Penfold of Rangers for Responsible Recreation.


Here's the start of a blurb they ultimately sent to the Interior Secretary at the time . . .

"September 24, 2007

Hon. Representative – Members of Rangers for Responsible Recreation (a PEER project), a growing coalition of 16 of America’s most respected seasoned law enforcement and land management specialists from every major public lands agency covering several different administrations, respectfully request that you sign on in support of the attached letter to Interior Secretary Kempthorne, urging him to protect archaeological sites, wildlife and wilderness values on certain public lands managed by the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) in Utah from damaging off-road vehicle (ORV) use."

Here's the whole letter . . . http://action.suwa.org/site/DocServer/RRR_ltr_for_ORV_Fly-In.pdf?docID=2301


These examples are just a small glimpse of what our OHV Community and the organizations who support us are fighting!!!

BTW, "PEER" stands for "Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility".

Here's a link to their web site . . . http://www.peer.org/

Here are search results from their site using the key words "Trout Unlimited" . . . http://www.google.com/search?q=Trout+Unlimited&sitesearch=peer.org


Their Tellico brag . . .

"Sportsmen and conservation groups have repeatedly asked the Forest Service to rein in damaging ORV traffic, but the agency has taken little effective action. In their letter today, the groups – the North Carolina and Tennessee Councils of Trout Unlimited, Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility (PEER), and the Southern Appalachian Biodiversity Project – notified the Forest Service of their intent to sue for repeated violations of the Clean Water Act and other laws."

Link to brag . . . http://www.peer.org/news/news_id.php?row_id=880


Link to their "Off-Road Wreckreation - Home" page, the title of which speaks for itself . . . http://www.peer.org/campaigns/publiclands/orv/index.php


. . . and then there is the group "Rangers for Responsible Recreation" who are so tightly tied to "PEER" that they don't even have a web site, because they are a "project" of PEER.


Here's a link to a Google search using their name . . . http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&source=hp&q=Rangers+for+Responsible+Recreation&aq=0v&aqi=g-v1&aql=&oq=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=c488823cce0a6f39&biw=1093&bih=444


Note that they are all for recreating responsibly . . . “Off-road abuse is unquestionably a top threat to hunting and fishing in America ,” said Mike Penfold of Rangers for Responsible Recreation.


Here's the start of a blurb they ultimately sent to the Interior Secretary at the time . . .

"September 24, 2007

Hon. Representative – Members of Rangers for Responsible Recreation (a PEER project), a growing coalition of 16 of America’s most respected seasoned law enforcement and land management specialists from every major public lands agency covering several different administrations, respectfully request that you sign on in support of the attached letter to Interior Secretary Kempthorne, urging him to protect archaeological sites, wildlife and wilderness values on certain public lands managed by the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) in Utah from damaging off-road vehicle (ORV) use."

Here's the whole letter . . . http://action.suwa.org/site/DocServer/RRR_ltr_for_ORV_Fly-In.pdf?docID=2301


These examples are just a small glimpse of what our OHV Community and the organizations who support us are fighting!!!

I still dont see how that allows them to bypass the court system?

IMHO it didn't, instead they apparently used it for all it was worth!

anybody have pics of the "new & improved" Tellico?

Update on the NEPA lawsuit.

The FS asked for and recieved an extension to file their response to SFWDA Motion for Summary judgement which you can read here http://sfwda.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=499&PID=2318

The FS will have until September 15, 2011 to respond.

I'm still hoping there a chance for a civil suit by the businesses that were hurt by the FS. Maybe the Forest Service would think twice before trying to run down a forest service user group.

Business will be booming soon now that all those damn OHVs aren't buzzing around everywhere, the second largest current retirement destination in the lower 48 can move ahead with all the river, lake and mountain top view real estate developments, planned communities and the like which it had planned.

The boon to county and State tax revenues as well as the increase in per capita income that comes with the influx will dwarf the minor money spent by the land ravaging creek polluters and leave them as merely a distant painful memory.

:flipoff2:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13106939&postcount=18

When we where in Murphy last month everywhere we stop for food or fuel. locals were asking about the jeeps. Where we were going , how many may show up, etc. they really miss the business. Everybody wanted the jeep back

Yeah, those are people who have been there a while not the Out-of State retirement folks who will soon erase all memory of Jeeps the old timers have replacing them with a parade of Mercedes, BMWs, Porsches, Cadillacs, Corvettes, fly rods and green backs!

When we where in Murphy last month everywhere we stop for food or fuel. locals were asking about the jeeps. Where we were going , how many may show up, etc. they really miss the business. Everybody wanted the jeep back

Tell them point-blank that the Jeeps are never coming back. The Jeeps used to come, visit, buy gas, groceries, food, beer, leave money, and go home.

The Escalades, Rovers, Bimmers, and Mercedes will be driven by people who will come, buy gas and food, and never leave. The people of Murphy are going to see their property taxes double.

Tell them point-blank that the Jeeps are never coming back. The Jeeps used to come, visit, buy gas, groceries, food, beer, leave money, and go home.

The Escalades, Rovers, Bimmers, and Mercedes will be driven by people who will come, buy gas and food, and never leave. The people of Murphy are going to see their property taxes double.

Yes and it's sad! Corporate greed at its finest . . .

http://www.muckety.com/Trout-Unlimited/5005759.muckety

The Wilderness Society funds TU and is in turn funded by a global real estate developer who also has many other interests.

When we where in Murphy last month everywhere we stop for food or fuel. locals were asking about the jeeps. Where we were going , how many may show up, etc. they really miss the business. Everybody wanted the jeep back

Haha its true we stopped at Ingles for some groceries and actually had one person ask why we were there since "that offroading place" was closed down. :laughing: They seemed happy to hear that there was another park possibly opening up.

http://www.fs.usda.gov/wps/portal/fsinternet/!ut/p/c4/04_SB8K8xLLM9MSSzPy8xBz9CP0os3gjAwhwtDDw9_AI8zPyhQ oY6BdkOyoCAGixyPg!/?ss=110811&navtype=BROWSEBYSUBJECT&cid=STELPRDB5311850&navid=180000000000000&pnavid=null&position=News&ttype=detail&pname=National%20Forests%20in%20North%20Carolina-%20News%20&%20Events

http://activerain.com/blogsview/1997324/murphy-nc-triple-creek-community-65-acre-planned-community

http://www.cbre.com/NR/rdonlyres/23E534A6-B2D5-4CD9-AA45-F46E069D64E8/0/HiwasseeRiverPropertyOverview.pdf

Had enough yet??? I have much more!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://www.fs.usda.gov/wps/portal/fsinternet/!ut/p/c4/04_SB8K8xLLM9MSSzPy8xBz9CP0os3gjAwhwtDDw9_AI8zPyhQ oY6BdkOyoCAGixyPg!/?ss=110811&navtype=BROWSEBYSUBJECT&cid=STELPRDB5311850&navid=180000000000000&pnavid=null&position=News&ttype=detail&pname=National%20Forests%20in%20North%20Carolina-%20News%20&%20Events

http://activerain.com/blogsview/1997324/murphy-nc-triple-creek-community-65-acre-planned-community

http://www.cbre.com/NR/rdonlyres/23E534A6-B2D5-4CD9-AA45-F46E069D64E8/0/HiwasseeRiverPropertyOverview.pdf

Had enough yet??? I have much more!!!!!!!!!!!!


makes me sick, but we knew it from the beginning, now we are seeing that plan come together just as they... planned

Can we get an update? :)

Can we get an update? :)

this is a few days old:

"The legal action in Tellico continues on schedule. The Government and SELC
have filed their responses to our motion for summary judgment. Both are
about what we expected to see, with a great deal of reiteration of
information that has consistently been provided by the Forest Service
leading up to and at the time of the final decision. Our attorneys are
currently preparing a final rebuttal due in September then the other parties each get their final rebuttal and then it is in the
hands of the judge to determine whether or not there is a need to hear oral
arguments."


The responses by the FS and SELC can be seen at:http://sfwda.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=499&PID=2343#2343

Thanks for posting this I have been in Atlanta this week and just now getting to catch up.

this is a few days old:

"The legal action in Tellico continues on schedule. The Government and SELC
have filed their responses to our motion for summary judgment. Both are
about what we expected to see, with a great deal of reiteration of
information that has consistently been provided by the Forest Service
leading up to and at the time of the final decision. Our attorneys are
currently preparing a final rebuttal due in September then the other parties each get their final rebuttal and then it is in the
hands of the judge to determine whether or not there is a need to hear oral
arguments."


The responses by the FS and SELC can be seen at:http://sfwda.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=499&PID=2343#2343

Thanks. I'll read through the links...

When well-connected developers hunt down some beautiful land, with what appears to be a bunch of locals that didn't want to deal with the current ORV noise and traffic AND a forest service teeming with those same locals, who seemed too lazy to want to do any extra work to maintain the trails-- tourism be damned, it's all a big headache-- well, I guess this is what happens. And I'm not saying give up the fight, but it seems hopeless at this point. Not anything Southern could have done different to save it once the right people had all shaken hands and the ball was rolling.

Just curious if there is anything new to update. They have technically had Davis Creek road(tr1) closed for almost 2 years and they are logging the OHV area as well as bulldozing the switchbacks out. It seems to me that something should be moving other than the FS going on with the predisposed plan of action.:mad3: It seems to me that they are in complete violation of the clean water act, but no stop work order has been initiated. Don't even hear the Communist Party Trout Unlimited sceaming about what is going on.

Just curious if there is anything new to update. They have technically had Davis Creek road(tr1) closed for almost 2 years and they are logging the OHV area as well as bulldozing the switchbacks out. It seems to me that something should be moving other than the FS going on with the predisposed plan of action.:mad3: It seems to me that they are in complete violation of the clean water act, but no stop work order has been initiated. Don't even hear the Communist Party Trout Unlimited sceaming about what is going on.

x2! Anything to update?

I drove thru trail 1 yesterday, they have really fucked it up. As your traveling from n.c to tenn. they have logged the mountain below the trail & the switchbacks have been made twice as large just to get heavy equipment down there to build another larger switchback down at the creek. Basicly the whole side of the mountain is bulldozed and washing into the creek every time it rains. below are some pics we took while there

n.c paystation
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q197/bobtail82/DSC09867.jpg

logging @trail 4
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q197/bobtail82/DSC09837.jpg

switchback mess
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q197/bobtail82/DSC09819.jpg
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q197/bobtail82/DSC09808.jpg
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q197/bobtail82/DSC09805.jpg
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q197/bobtail82/DSC09783.jpg

below they bulldozed logging debri off the side of the trail ,then dumped gravel to make the road wider
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q197/bobtail82/DSC09791.jpg
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q197/bobtail82/DSC09788.jpg

heres a watercrossing they built just before the switchbacks. looks like something that could be in a gated community

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q197/bobtail82/DSC09844.jpg

about a 1/4 mile up upper 2 they removed the trail. only reason they left what they did was to access logging
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q197/bobtail82/DSC09849.jpg

We stopped by to see chuck on the way out
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q197/bobtail82/DSC09881.jpg

Yup, now that TU has done the bidding of corporate interests they serve and gotten rid of all those obnoxious 4X4 trappings (noisy rigs, rattling trailers, loud nasty mouth beer drinkers) the area is perfect for occupation by its new full time residents.

Of course, TU will not file suit over the current phaqing mess but the 4X4 crowd and local residents sure could. Just use some of the original tactics and documentation that TU did with some minor changes as a template . . . bingo!

That is a hell of a shame and should be documented along with the TU stuff for future reference.

Wish I could get up there to inspect the environmental controls on their construction...you can see the black silt fence in one of the pictures (with pipes) is collapsed...since I lost my business near Tellico and had to move back to FL I got a job with the Department of Transportation...as a construction inspector for a little more than a year now...more specifically I've been inspecting environmental controls in a wetlands area for a few months now...because I have a keen interest in sediment.... If the Forestry Service is the permit holder for the construction they may be liable for the fines their contractor incurs on their behalf...
sigh....I guess none of that does anygood now. BTW...did you know you can post pictures on TroutUnlimiteds facebook wall? We'll see how long mine stays up.

If the Forestry Service is the permit holder for the construction they may be liable for the fines their contractor incurs on their behalf...
sigh....I guess none of that does anygood now.

Unfortunately, I would have to admit that your assessment is the bottom line and we would just be suing ourselves (tax payers) in the end, for what? It is gone for good; soon many more OHV destinations in the area will follow as part of their “master plan”!

Just look at the Aetna Mountain Road issue in Chattanooga as a precursor of things to come!!!

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11248827&postcount=12

Just look at the Aetna Mountain Road issue in Chattanooga as a precursor of things to come!!!

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showpost.php?p=11248827&postcount=12



http://www.chattanoogan.com/articles/article_210776.asp

Yup, the Police are gone but the signs are still up as are the poles for the gate. Similar signs will go up to prevent folks from parking anywhere. If it isn’t street legal and there is no place to park a tow rig/ trailer, then for many there will be no further recreational opportunity there.

Thanks for bringing these photos to our attention. We'll look into what's happening with the work happening there and get back to you. There's no question that we'll have differences in opinion, but we seem to have hit a common thread here — we're all committed to protecting both the forest and the stream.

Man, you have a lot of balls to come here talking about the little we have in common!!! I'll believe it when I see the lawsuit . . . :flipoff2:

:stirthepot:Thanks for bringing these photos to our attention. We'll look into what's happening with the work happening there and get back to you. There's no question that we'll have differences in opinion, but we seem to have hit a common thread here — we're all committed to protecting both the forest and the stream.

:stirthepot:troll?

Lyin' King — There were comments above talking about how we should be upset about the work going on. The photos that were posted here have prompted us to look into it. If we're not welcome here, or you'd rather not hear about it when your forum causes us to look into various issues, we won't come back.

I'm not looking for, or interested in having an argument, I'm just here to tell you that you've got our attention, and we're now looking into the work being done. If I'm welcome, I'll tell you what we find. If not, this can certainly be my last post here.

Lyin' King — There were comments above talking about how we should be upset about the work going on. The photos that were posted here have prompted us to look into it. If we're not welcome here, or you'd rather not hear about it when your forum causes us to look into various issues, we won't come back.

I'm not looking for, or interested in having an argument, I'm just here to tell you that you've got our attention, and we're now looking into the work being done. If I'm welcome, I'll tell you what we find. If not, this can certainly be my last post here.

What? Trout Unlimited goes around suing everything in sight related to our sport, caused the loss of many of our cherished destinations, ruined many small local community’s economies and we just now have your attention???

Unbelievable :shaking:

It seems that your Chairman Hamilton E. James who is also President of the Blackstone Group and Director of Costco Wholesale Corporation has a whole bunch of ties to folks who could care less about the environment.

What do you have to say about this perplexing set of apparent interest conflicts?

http://www.muckety.com/Trout-Unlimited/5005759.muckety

http://www.muckety.com/Query?graph=MucketyMap&SearchResult=14289&SearchResult=1326

http://www.muckety.com/Blackstone-Group/5000245.muckety

Lyin' King — There were comments above talking about how we should be upset about the work going on. The photos that were posted here have prompted us to look into it. If we're not welcome here, or you'd rather not hear about it when your forum causes us to look into various issues, we won't come back.

I'm not looking for, or interested in having an argument, I'm just here to tell you that you've got our attention, and we're now looking into the work being done. If I'm welcome, I'll tell you what we find. If not, this can certainly be my last post here.

My question is how did TU not have a clue this has been going on already?
I mean the brook trout was so important for the millions of trout fisherman that fished I'm sure they had to have said something. Y'all shut it down and walked away with your chest held high. We've kept up with it because we loved it, I mean I "LOVED TELLICO". I camped responsible for 15 years on those same creeks atleast 4 times a year.
Here I'll save ya the headache of doing homework to find out what's going on. It's getting developed. Don't act like y'all didn't know.

Lyin' King — There were comments above talking about how we should be upset about the work going on. The photos that were posted here have prompted us to look into it. If we're not welcome here, or you'd rather not hear about it when your forum causes us to look into various issues, we won't come back.

I'm not looking for, or interested in having an argument, I'm just here to tell you that you've got our attention, and we're now looking into the work being done. If I'm welcome, I'll tell you what we find. If not, this can certainly be my last post here.

well, if you're serious then how about you oblige us with a your name and what chapter you belong to.

My question is how did TU not have a clue this has been going on already?

This is my question? As soon as the "evil" 4wheelers were gone nobody ever fished there again? Nobody noticed what was going on? If there was really a concern over the damage being done before, it seems those same people would notice the increased damage now... :shaking:

McCracken - My name is Brennan Sang, I work for the TU's national office as their online community manager. I belong to the Madison-Gallatin Chapter in SW Montana.

I understand your frustration with the situation. We're working on talking with our leadership in NC and TN to figure out what's going on with the work being done there. You folks said we should take notice, and we have.

All that I personally know about the state of this project is what I've read here and other sources online. I've contacted folks that should have a better idea of what's going on, but I haven't heard back yet. As soon as I hear more, I plan on letting you all know what I find out.

McCracken - My name is Brennan Sang, I work for the TU's national office as their online community manager. I belong to the Madison-Gallatin Chapter in SW Montana.

I understand your frustration with the situation. We're working on talking with our leadership in NC and TN to figure out what's going on with the work being done there. You folks said we should take notice, and we have.

All that I personally know about the state of this project is what I've read here and other sources online. I've contacted folks that should have a better idea of what's going on, but I haven't heard back yet. As soon as I hear more, I plan on letting you all know what I find out.

Does the leadership understand that the Forest Service is to blame for Tellico? I'll be the first to admit our hobby is not the most eco-friendly but we have a very committed community that wanted to manage that area the right way. you can only do what the MANAGERS will allow.

Two of your members made it their quest to destroy our good reputation in that area and used your organization's name to do it. How does your leadership feel about that?

McCracken — I'm really interested to hear what our folks in NC and TN have to say about how the FS is handling the work currently going on. As far as individual members go, I don't have the full story (probably not even the first page), so I'll hold off on commenting about those folks.

I can tell that you have a committed community dedicated to proper management, and that's a wonderful thing. I'm yet to hear back from our folks in NC and TN (they're all volunteers, and have day jobs), but again, once we get a better idea of what exactly is happening, I'll be sure to stop back over and update you folks.

I do have to say that I'm a media guy, not a policy guy — and fairly new to TU. I can't change our policies or speak as to what's happened in the past. I saw your photos and I've brought them to the attention of the folks in our organization that I thought should see them, and I'll keep you updated on what they tell me.

It seems that your Chairman Hamilton E. James who is also President of the Blackstone Group and Director of Costco Wholesale Corporation has a whole bunch of ties to folks who could care less about the environment.

http://www.muckety.com/Trout-Unlimited/5005759.muckety

http://www.muckety.com/Query?graph=MucketyMap&SearchResult=14289&SearchResult=1326

http://www.muckety.com/Blackstone-Group/5000245.muckety

Ok, so the Chairman of Trout Unlimited is the President of the Blackstone Group and they have their fingerprints all over North Carolina.

Here are just a few small examples . . .



Blackstone To Buy Shopping Centers for $473.1 Million

"the deal with Blackstone Real Estate Partners VII includes properties in North Carolina, South Carolina, Alabama, Tennessee and Maryland as well."

Source: http://blogs.wsj.com/developments/2011/09/26/blackstone-to-buy-shopping-centers-for-473-1-million/


Blackstone Buying Carolina Pavilion, Three Other NC Shopping Centers

"In Carolina, the assets included:

• Parkwest Crossing in Durham, NC, an 85,602 shopping center anchored by Food Lion​;
• Salisbury Marketplace in Salisbury, NC, a 79,732 shopping center anchored by Food Lion;
• Carolina Pavilion in Charlotte, NC, a 731,678 shopping center anchored by Ross Dress For Less​, hhgregg, Kohl's, AMC Theatres​, Nordstrom Rack​, DSW, Bed Bath & Beyond​, buybuy BABY and Old Navy​; and
• Whitaker Square in Winston-Salem, NC, an 82,760 shopping center anchored by Harris Teeter​."

Source: http://charlotteraleighrealestate.citybizlist.com/14/2011/9/26/Blackstone-Buying-Carolina-Pavilion-Three-Other-NC-Shopping-Centers.aspx


Blackstone has deep interests in N.C., Triangle

"New York-based Blackstone Group whose CEO, Stephen Schwarzman, on April 25 announced a $3.63 million donation to set up an entrepreneurs network at Triangle universities, is no stranger to the area.

Just weeks ago, in March, the company that Schwarzman co-founded in 1985 became the owner of three local shopping centers – in north Raleigh, Cary and Siler City – after buying Australian real estate company Centro Properties for an estimated $9.4 billion.

Blackstone has other local ties. The firm has been a long-time real estate investment manager for the state of North Carolina pension system. And the results are not very pretty at the moment.

According to a pension report detailing investment returns as of June 30, 2010, the latest data available, North Carolina committed $102 million to Blackstone’s Fund 5 in 2006 and $200 million to Fund 6 a year later. As of June 30, 2010, Blackstone had drawn $88 million for fund 5 investments, which were showing a 3-year performance of negative 20 percent. Some $95 million had been drawn for fund 6, which had a 3-year performance of negative 21 percent.

Pension officials paid Blackstone $1.1 million in management fees on fund 5 during fiscal 2010 and $2.96 million for fund 6, according to the report."

Source: http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/print-edition/2011/04/29/blackstone-has-deep-interests-in-nc.html?page=all


Stephen A. Schwarzman

"Gender: Male
Address: Lives and/or works in New York, NY
Wealth class: Billionaire
Areas of interest: nonprofits, business, finance
Politics: Schwarzman is a contributor to Republican committees and campaigns.

He also has affiliations with centrist think tanks.

Personal social network: Much of Schwarzman's Muckety comes from personal connections. His power base is his role as chairman & CEO & co-founder of Blackstone Group."

Source: http://www.muckety.com/Stephen-A-Schwarzman/1986.muckety


Various other "Blackstone Group" Real Estate ventures in NC . . .

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=blackstone+real+estate+north+carolina&psj=1&oq=blackstone+real+estate+north+carolina&aq=f&aqi=&aql=1&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=119244l120719l4l123035l8l7l0l0l0l6l1945l108 72l7-3.4l7l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=8ae31e96121ca37e&biw=1093&bih=475


Does anybody else think there is something fishy going on here?

Brennan if this is you...

http://brennansang.com/images/me.jpg

you look like an avid fisherman and it sounds like you want to help but I need to let you know a few things before we continue.

1) Our trails were stripped from us by the Forest Service that worked directly with your organization. TU threatened legal action if no improvements were made. We got the finger pointed at us after over 25 years had been spent following the Forest Service's specific direction on management. So who's to blame, the horse doing the work or the one who's driving it?

2) We want the Forest Service to pay for what they did to our hobby and our community. That means all those people that said we were the problem, we want them held accountable for their mismanagement. Unfortuantely, this goes far higher than the district level and possible regional.

and I believe this is where the partnership stops...

3) Tellico will not reopen. They have already destroyed everything that made that place what it was to us. I'm sure you've already saved the pictures off of this site and you can use them but I have a pretty good feeling TU is not going to help us get our trails back. Politics are at play and I'd bet the farm that your organization would use us to the very end for its agenda but you would never help us.

4) Lastly, my bet is that you find out what's going on and never return. Well, not to talk about it anyway. I'm sure you'll come back for recon purposes ;) TU is just as much to blame as the Forest Service if not more. Who do you think brought all the threats and caused all this to happen? I'd personally love to hear what your leadership has to say and not from you but the actual people involved. I guess only time will tell.

McCracken - My name is Brennan Sang, I work for the TU's national office as their online community manager. I belong to the Madison-Gallatin Chapter in SW Montana.

I understand your frustration with the situation. We're working on talking with our leadership in NC and TN to figure out what's going on with the work being done there. You folks said we should take notice, and we have.

All that I personally know about the state of this project is what I've read here and other sources online. I've contacted folks that should have a better idea of what's going on, but I haven't heard back yet. As soon as I hear more, I plan on letting you all know what I find out.

This is my question? As soon as the "evil" 4wheelers were gone nobody ever fished there again? Nobody noticed what was going on? If there was really a concern over the damage being done before, it seems those same people would notice the increased damage now... :shaking:

What? Trout Unlimited goes around suing everything in sight related to our sport, caused the loss of many of our cherished destinations, ruined many small local community’s economies and we just now have your attention???

Unbelievable :shaking:

It seems that your Chairman Hamilton E. James who is also President of the Blackstone Group and Director of Costco Wholesale Corporation has a whole bunch of ties to folks who could care less about the environment.

What do you have to say about this perplexing set of apparent interest conflicts?

http://www.muckety.com/Trout-Unlimited/5005759.muckety

http://www.muckety.com/Query?graph=MucketyMap&SearchResult=14289&SearchResult=1326

http://www.muckety.com/Blackstone-Group/5000245.muckety

This should serve as notice that the decision to NOT post important legal details here and therefore making it look like SW4WD and BRC were being secretive was not the wrong decision.

Supporting our orgs is the right thing to do. Even if you are suspicious, feeling uninformed or whatever. The mission these orgs have, which are "businesses" and bound by a "mission", is to keep the public lands open. There are things at play that will never be able to be in the public light because doing so would jeopardize the whole deal.

Get it??

The people that love to do what we do, are by nature, independent, willful and believe in the American democracy. The hard part is trusting the actions of an org and forgetting the mission they are bound to. While certain things may not be done well or may miss the mark. The INTENTION is what is key to remember.

I keep hearing that the support is gone and people have given up. If there was support for the lawsuit still, there might be enough money to make a difference. If the local support from Murphy and the businesses there were to blossom, it might make a difference. If the local government was to realize the importance of the tax base lost, it might make a difference.

Before you say something about a California guy talking about Tellico, I can say that I was able to enjoy Tellico back in the 90's. Schoolbus, #2, Slickrock, gaurdrail, Yup, I get it.

I have learned that to make the best effort, getting in touch and building relationships with the local government, local businesses and the local population is the absolute key to success.

Scott

This should serve as notice that the decision to NOT post important legal details here and therefore making it look like SW4WD and BRC were being secretive was not the wrong decision.

Supporting our orgs is the right thing to do. Even if you are suspicious, feeling uninformed or whatever. The mission these orgs have, which are "businesses" and bound by a "mission", is to keep the public lands open. There are things at play that will never be able to be in the public light because doing so would jeopardize the whole deal.

Get it??

The people that love to do what we do, are by nature, independent, willful and believe in the American democracy. The hard part is trusting the actions of an org and forgetting the mission they are bound to. While certain things may not be done well or may miss the mark. The INTENTION is what is key to remember.

I keep hearing that the support is gone and people have given up. If there was support for the lawsuit still, there might be enough money to make a difference. If the local support from Murphy and the businesses there were to blossom, it might make a difference. If the local government was to realize the importance of the tax base lost, it might make a difference.

Before you say something about a California guy talking about Tellico, I can say that I was able to enjoy Tellico back in the 90's. Schoolbus, #2, Slickrock, gaurdrail, Yup, I get it.

I have learned that to make the best effort, getting in touch and building relationships with the local government, local businesses and the local population is the absolute key to success.

Scott

bullshit. no one ever asked about legal strategy. All we wanted were simple updates from the leadership to let us know that our money was being put to good use. We all knew better than to think Southern or BRC would come on here and show the blueprints to the plan :shaking:

I know this was an attempt to rally troops but it's weak sauce. If you don't effectively communicate with the people you want involved then you're pissing in the wind asking for support.

Yep, that's me. And you're right on at least your first three points. As far as your fourth point goes, I saw something that looked like a mess on a project that we've been involved with, and I wanted to let you all know that we'll look into what's going on. I can't do any more than that. I told you that I'd come back and update you when I hear more, and I plan to do that.

I want to say for the record that I have no problem with responsible OHV use. Four wheeling and snowmobiling are a huge part of the culture out here, and snowmobiling in particular is a huge part of my small town's economy. My wife works winters at a snowmobile guide service.

I'd also like to point out that James Hamilton has worked as the vice-chair of one of several of our program areas. He is not the head of our organization, or of our board. I'm not saying this because I don't think highly of Mr. Hamilton (I've never met the man, and he's done great things for our organization), I just want you to understand that TU is not run by the president of Blackstone.

My understanding of the situation with the FS is that our NC and TN councils asked the FS to follow the Water Pollution Control Act in Tellico. It looks like the FS decided that rather than spend the resources to properly manage the trail system and protect water quality, its preferred alternative was just to shut the whole thing down. While it may not seem this way from your side of the fence, our interest is in protecting trout streams and wilderness, not in eliminating all OHV trails and access.

I'm sure that there are an enormous amount of complications and other issues at play here, I'm just going on what I've read here and from the SFWDA NOI. Again, we're looking out for the trout streams, you folks posted something that looked like bad news for the streams in Tellico, and I'm looking into it.

Yep, that's me. And you're right on at least your first three points. As far as your fourth point goes, I saw something that looked like a mess on a project that we've been involved with, and I wanted to let you all know that we'll look into what's going on. I can't do any more than that. I told you that I'd come back and update you when I hear more, and I plan to do that.

I want to say for the record that I have no problem with responsible OHV use. Four wheeling and snowmobiling are a huge part of the culture out here, and snowmobiling in particular is a huge part of my small town's economy. My wife works winters at a snowmobile guide service.

I'd also like to point out that James Hamilton has worked as the vice-chair of one of several of our program areas. He is not the head of our organization, or of our board. I'm not saying this because I don't think highly of Mr. Hamilton (I've never met the man), I just want you to understand that TU is not run by the president of Blackstone.

My understanding of the situation with the FS is that our NC and TN councils asked the FS to follow the Water Pollution Control Act in Tellico. It looks like the FS decided that rather than spend the resources to properly manage the trail system and protect water quality, its preferred alternative was just to shut the whole thing down. While it may not seem this way from your side of the fence, our interest is in protecting trout streams and wilderness, not in eliminating all OHV trails and access.

I'm sure that there are an enormous amount of complications and other issues at play here, I'm just going on what I've read here and from the SFWDA NOI. Again, we're looking out for the trout streams, you folks posted something that looked like bad news for the streams in Tellico, and I'm looking into it.

Kudos to you for actually havin the brass to come on here and try hash things out but IMO,it's waaaaaay too little waaaaay too late.I know you said your new to this and dont know the past dealings of your bosses,and that might be true,but you/they cant make me believe for a minute that they were not aware of what is goin on.I hope you have thick skin cause it can/will get pretty rough for you around here if they choose to do so cause when this is all said and done you'll still have what you want.

I would really like to hear what squeak thinks about all this,he was so vocal before but has anybody heard from him lately???? He has to know he screwed up.

Man I check in time to time cause I really loved this place the 1 time I got to go. Seeing someone from TU on here is going to bring some drama but I'm curious since he says he's not from the area what he comes up with.

I'd also like to point out that James Hamilton has worked as the vice-chair of one of several of our program areas. He is not the head of our organization, or of our board. I'm not saying this because I don't think highly of Mr. Hamilton (I've never met the man), I just want you to understand that TU is not run by the president of Blackstone.


Thank you for the clarification. I fully understand that Blackstone Group does not directly run TU and is merely a benefactor of TU's actions as is TU of their philanthropic non-profit efforts.

By your own admission Mr. Hamilton is part of your organization, guilt by association from my perspective. I said he was a Chairman not the not the “head of your organization”.

I expect that he serves in the capacity of “Vice-Chair” as a major contributor to the “deep pockets” program area while also serving in a "steering" capacity.

My understanding of the situation with the FS is that our NC and TN councils asked the FS to follow the Water Pollution Control Act in Tellico. It looks like the FS decided that rather than spend the resources to properly manage the trail system and protect water quality, its preferred alternative was just to shut the whole thing down. While it may not seem this way from your side of the fence, our interest is in protecting trout streams and wilderness, not in eliminating all OHV trails and access.


SO even when the OHV community does everything asked of it for the last 25 years the FS still decides to kick us out?

at your organizations behest because of threatened lawsuits.

and then months later we see that the FS is logging the side of the mountain and it's been going on for over a year? Look for the posting by yellowxj, they showed the area as soon as the OHV community got kicked out. This has been going on for quite some time now, where has your organization been?

Here's the first indications, these pictures were taken in 2009.
http://pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=806794&highlight=pictures+logging

Here's what your own organization released as a press release in Oct 2009, 2 months after we confirmed that the are was being logged:
http://www.tu.org/press_releases/2009/conservationists-back-usfs-action-to-restore-water-quality-in-nc%E2%80%99s-tellico-orv-a
The agency will close most trails in the Tellico area and invest substantial resources to restore those lands, and convert the remaining ORV trails to forest roads for public access for other types of recreation. ORV use will no longer be allowed anywhere in the area.
those pictures from 09 sure look like they were restoring those lands right?

I'm sorry, but coming here and offering the olive branch of "we're just trying to help out the trout streams" is BS. The underlying agenda of your NC and TN councils was to get Tellico closed to OHV, at all costs. Once that goal was accomplished they disappeared like a fart in the wind and could care less about the local economy or ecology, as proved by the pictures.

I loved Tellico, and your organization took it from us and then allowed it to be destroyed. It will NEVER be what it was while it was under the care of the OHV community. TU has failed in it's own mission, and the local area has paid the price.

I sincerely hope that one day TU can work with OHV users and we can all get along on responsible management and use, but TU's adversarial relationship with us is their own doing. The OHV community has bent over backwards to try and appease those wishing to kick us out of every FS piece of property, and yet organizations such as yours keep blaming us and pushing.




Sorry if I'm bitter, but those are the facts as I see them.

I get what you guys are saying. I can't speak for the councils down there, and I'm not here trying to mend burnt bridges. I'm just here to tell you I saw your photos and I'm looking into it. I totally understand feeling bitter, and I know I'm not going to change anyone's opinion of TU on a message board — that's fine with me.

I'm fine with folks being upset, hell, I expected it. I'm actually pleasantly surprised at how civil the conversation has been.

You guys can question my statements, my motives, my organization — that's all fine. I saw something posted here that didn't sit right, and I just figured I'd let you know I'm looking into it. What you want to read into that is up to you, and entirely out of my hands.

Hopefully I'll hear back from some folks in NC and TN soon, and once I do, I'll stop back by and let you know what I've found out.

Thanks for the replies Brennan. We invited Wilhelm to participate on this forum but he never did. We went to debate on forums on "the other side" and were banned for sharing our point of view. The hardest thing has been to get a honest debate about the points that were brought up about Tellico. At the open house in Murphy NC where representatives and enthusiast from both sides gathered to ask questions of the Forestry Service OHV enthusiasts were called theives by a rep of the Forestry Service...it didnt lend a lot of confidence in the process we were about to endure.

It seems like a lot of the folks that I need to talk to are out hunting, traveling for work, or just out of the office for a few days. I haven't forgotten about you guys. I know that might sound like BS, but I'll get back to you as soon as I hear anything.

I'll give you credit for coming on here and saying you'll look into it. I'll give you even more credit if you pursue this as heavily as TU pursued the OHV enthusiasts.

Tellico is not the only place where TU has killed our sport and they continue their efforts in other locations as I write. They have BILLIONS of dollars in financial backing to accomplish same!!!

The Forest Service allowed them to screw us in Tellico, taking the path of least resistance rather than fight for us, they will continue to do so and TU knows it.

It seems like a lot of the folks that I need to talk to are out hunting, traveling for work, or just out of the office for a few days. I haven't forgotten about you guys. I know that might sound like BS, but I'll get back to you as soon as I hear anything.

Maybe they just don't want to talk about it...

Despite the “feel good” moment brought to us by Brennan, an admitted disconnected TU “newbie” and “media relations wonk” with no real history of the fights his organization has engaged in, don’t let his crap sway you.

Consider this, if you were broken down along a forest road flying a “name your favorite access organization sticker” and a Range Rover flying a TU sticker was the first vehicle to pass by in hours, ask yourself . . . would they even stop?

If so, what would they offer in the way of assistance?

Do TU members swap the traditional Jeep (and other flavor) wave in passing even if they are in a 4X4 on their way down the same trails we use leading to their favorite fishing location?

Nobody here is an idiot, please don’t be played as one!!!

My signature says all I care to say.

Brennan,

I know there are several people here looking forward to an update once you hear something the involved persons from TU in NC and TN. Please post up. We're all ears.

Brennan,

I know there are several people here looking forward to an update once you hear something the involved persons from TU in NC and TN. Please post up. We're all ears.

x2

Very interested since I'm a local, oh and TU feel free to share your findings or thoughts with the local paper here --> http://cherokeescout.com/

Any additional response from TU?

Any additional response from TU?



Did you really expect one?
I wasn't holding my breath!

Yep, no activity from him since his last post. Pretty much what was expected. Surprised he even bothered posting in the first place...

Wasn't there some type of mediation going on? Or do I remember incorrectly? What about the law suit that I read about from the CE? Any word on them?

Did you really expect one?
I wasn't holding my breath!

I wasn't holding my breath but I was breathing shallow (hopeful I guess you could say). I figured he would either come back in and say he couldn't say anything, or just disappear which is what it looks like has happened.

Did you really expect one?
I wasn't holding my breath!

I wasn't holding my breath but I was breathing shallow (hopeful I guess you could say). I figured he would either come back in and say he couldn't say anything, or just disappear which is what it looks like has happened.


I have no doubt he made a few calls. But once they fell on def ears he prob realized(or told) don't go down that road.

I have no doubt he made a few calls. But then he was told "don't go down that road."

This.

Yep, no activity from him since his last post. Pretty much what was expected. Surprised he even bothered posting in the first place...

I'd say he was gung ho about it and really wanted to so something good but then...

...he made a few calls. But once they fell on def ears he prob realized(or told) don't go down that road.

I think I called this.

It's like what happened with me. I was all pumped about helping with the land use fight until the uppers told me it was their way or no way. well, not "no way" but they wouldn't support anything besides what they directed. it's sad really. I wonder how many people get all geared up to help just to find out it's all for not unless you get their blessing :shaking:

Southern Four Wheel Drive Association has the lead on posting updates on Tellico. Here is the link I found: http://www.sfwda.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=499

BlueRibbon Coalition is working with and supporting Southern in the fight in court.
Del

I love the fact that the Judge has no time limit. He can basically wait until he/she is about to retire and then drop the bomb without any political fall out. Great justice system we have! All the while the FS keeps plugging along like nothing is happening.:mad3:
I hope that the FS is getting squeezed by this economy and I get to see some of them in the unemployment line. :flipoff2:

I figured he would either come back in and say he couldn't say anything, or just disappear which is what it looks like has happened.

He hasn't disappeared and can be contacted anytime by the public, as advertised by Trout Unlimited, at . . . Brennan.Sang@tu.org

He hasn't disappeared and can be contacted anytime by the public, as advertised by Trout Unlimited, at . . . Brennan.Sang@tu.org

He disappeared from this forum that he was hitting hot and heavy.

It seems like a lot of the folks that I need to talk to are out hunting, traveling for work, or just out of the office for a few days. I haven't forgotten about you guys. I know that might sound like BS, but I'll get back to you as soon as I hear anything.

.

He disappeared from this forum that he was hitting hot and heavy.

Of course, TU upper management and their attorneys will not allow him get in the way of the massive contributions they receive from the developers for their successful intervention effort.

Heck, what he proposed, if set in motion, might derail years of effort and planning . . . he’s likely been given a permanent time out from this subject matter!

Of course, TU upper management and their attorneys will not allow him get in the way of the massive contributions they receive from the developers for their successful intervention effort.

Heck, what he proposed, if set in motion, might derail years of effort and planning . . . he’s likely been given a permanent time out from this subject matter!

I know he was probably told not to post anymore on Pirate - I was simply pointing out that he said (over and over) that he would look into it and get back to us. There is some humor in that... :shaking:

I was simply pointing out that he said (over and over) that he would look into it and get back to us. There is some humor in that... :shaking:

Understood, I'm with ya and couldn't agree more . . . his showing up here was funny enough never mind the thought of a TU Junior Media Wonk looking into something his employers created. :D

SO even when the OHV community does everything asked of it for the last 25 years the FS still decides to kick us out?

at your organizations behest because of threatened lawsuits.

and then months later we see that the FS is logging the side of the mountain and it's been going on for over a year? Look for the posting by yellowxj, they showed the area as soon as the OHV community got kicked out. This has been going on for quite some time now, where has your organization been?

Here's the first indications, these pictures were taken in 2009.
http://pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=806794&highlight=pictures+logging

Here's what your own organization released as a press release in Oct 2009, 2 months after we confirmed that the are was being logged:
http://www.tu.org/press_releases/2009/conservationists-back-usfs-action-to-restore-water-quality-in-nc%E2%80%99s-tellico-orv-a

those pictures from 09 sure look like they were restoring those lands right?

I'm sorry, but coming here and offering the olive branch of "we're just trying to help out the trout streams" is BS. The underlying agenda of your NC and TN councils was to get Tellico closed to OHV, at all costs. Once that goal was accomplished they disappeared like a fart in the wind and could care less about the local economy or ecology, as proved by the pictures.

I loved Tellico, and your organization took it from us and then allowed it to be destroyed. It will NEVER be what it was while it was under the care of the OHV community. TU has failed in it's own mission, and the local area has paid the price.

I sincerely hope that one day TU can work with OHV users and we can all get along on responsible management and use, but TU's adversarial relationship with us is their own doing. The OHV community has bent over backwards to try and appease those wishing to kick us out of every FS piece of property, and yet organizations such as yours keep blaming us and pushing.




Sorry if I'm bitter, but those are the facts as I see them.

This was very well said...as have many of the post been. I loved Tellico more than any place I had ever wheeled. I'm not even exactly sure what it was, just felt right. Brennan seems like he is genuine, but his desire will be outpaced by his ability when the higher ups (who really caused all this) shut him down hard. I have lots of pictures and memories, which will have to do...since even if they reopened it tomorrow...it would take 50+ years for the forest to regrow to what it was.

I don't hate TU...I hate sub-agendas, ignorance, and greed...wait...maybe I do hate TU :eek:

I'm glad I was able to go atleast a couple times on the fourwheeler... It was a great place... It's a shame my kids won't know the joy I had there...

-Tapatalk for HTC Inspire

When TU was formed in '59 they were principled, now they are just another attack dog for corporations as an arm of The Wilderness Society.

Its interesting that TU's facebook page hasnt deleted the photos of trail destruction, logging, and discussions about them that we put on...wilhelm must not be in charge of that...it was shortly after we posted there that Brennan started posting here...I thought.

I'm glad I was able to go atleast a couple times on the fourwheeler... It was a great place... It's a shame my kids won't know the joy I had there...

-Tapatalk for HTC Inspire

My wife and I were telling our three year old daughter about going up there just yesterday it is sad to see us lose so much and to know our kids can not enjoy it.

Brennan, also look into the fact that as soon as Tellico was closed for OHV use logging crews went in pouring hydraulic fluid everywhere and mutilating the forest. The water quality should have been tested while that work was going on. We have pictures to prove this.

Rest assured, he has set his email to trash anything that comes from this site and likewise, we should trash anything that ever came from him . . . he clearly over stepped his bounds and obviously had no idea what he was dealing with!!!

I was at a county meeting yesterday and Commissioner Wood was ralling support to stop the the FS with a road project in Fires Creek. He is all upset that the FS is providing a road to a 50acre parcel of private land at the top that Tom Thrash and some other investors have. He is taking a full charge at the situation to stop this road that according to him and the Hiawassee Water Coalition will greatly affect the water quality of this pristine trout habitat area. He wrote a letter that even uses Tellico OHV as an arguing point as to the FS inability to make proper decisions as to how to protect the environment after the closing of the trail system. He stated that there was more of an environmental water quality disaster after the closing of the trails and that mismanagement seems to be the M.O. of the FS.
It sure would have been nice to see the passion during the trail closing process. I'll just stand by and watch them get bulldozed just like that million dollar tax paid private driveway.

I was at a county meeting yesterday and Commissioner Wood was ralling support to stop the the FS with a road project in Fires Creek. He is all upset that the FS is providing a road to a 50acre parcel of private land at the top that Tom Thrash and some other investors have. He is taking a full charge at the situation to stop this road that according to him and the Hiawassee Water Coalition will greatly affect the water quality of this pristine trout habitat area. He wrote a letter that even uses Tellico OHV as an arguing point as to the FS inability to make proper decisions as to how to protect the environment after the closing of the trail system. He stated that there was more of an environmental water quality disaster after the closing of the trails and that mismanagement seems to be the M.O. of the FS.
It sure would have been nice to see the passion during the trail closing process. I'll just stand by and watch them get bulldozed just like that million dollar tax paid private driveway.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the city unwilling to do ANYTHING to help us during the closure? Or did they do something?

Those 50 acres are landlocked by OUR PUBLIC LAND; it is a planned community for wealthy retirees, trout anglers, hikers and the like, it has been in the works for quite some time.

It’s also a “planned road”, the developers planned it when deciding to acquire this particular parcel knowing they would be using OUR tax dollars to fund it due to a law that requires the Forest Service provide access to private land holders surrounded by federally owned land.

Those 50 acres are landlocked by OUR PUBLIC LAND; it is a planned community for wealthy retirees, trout anglers, hikers and the like, it has been in the works for quite some time.

It’s also a “planned road”, the developers planned it when deciding to acquire this particular parcel knowing they would be using OUR tax dollars to fund it due to a law that requires the Forest Service provide access to private land holders surrounded by federally owned land.

Wow...this whole thing just get more and more shady :shaking:

It is proof that with enough money, you can do anything.

It sure does make one wonder if getting us out was planned, TU was a pawn. Water quality was just the vehicle chosen to move us out so the rich people wouldn't have to see or hear us. Public lands, more like hunting in england.

IT IS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY!!!

The money wheelers spent at Tellico was just a drop in the bucket for the surrounding Counties and States. Sure, small Ma and Pa businesses loved our presence but the taxman didn't get much out of it.

All the development is making the taxman very happy, the State budget is starting to swell and Tellico was just a thorn in the side of realtors, developers, the Forest Service and ultimately local and State Government.

It's easy to see how the FS intentionally threw us under the bus in the TU lawsuit. It's easy to understand why they quickly tore up the trail network. It's obvious why TU (attack dog for hire) ignores all the areas currently under development that threaten fish by causing far more sedimentation than wheelers ever did.

There’s been a lot of winking, nodding, backslapping, glad handing and palm greasing going on for well over a decade to get this far, the powers that be won’t let a few motorized recreationists stand their way!

I was at a county meeting yesterday and Commissioner Wood was ralling support to stop the the FS with a road project in Fires Creek. He is all upset that the FS is providing a road to a 50acre parcel of private land at the top that Tom Thrash and some other investors have.

Is this the same guy?

http://www.grahamstar.com/articles/2011/04/07/news/doc4d96224998add587370976.txt

Brantley had hoped to lease the 50-acre tract, which is part of 4,000 acres owned by Tom Thrash in the Snowbird area. She said Tellico off-road trails on U.S. Forest Service land brought about $3 million in tourism dollars to Cherokee County.

And what connection does Tom Thrash have, if any, to Snowbird Anglers?

The dude is Thomas L. Thrash

He is a property investor, operates as “Thrash Limited Partnership” in which he and his Wife Lora R. Thrash are principles.

He spends more time in Court than he does on the toilet. There was a big deal over another parcel he once owned years ago when he started to finalize his plans for it.

He was pissed because the courts prevented him from going forward with the project via an ordinance that derailed his plans so he sold to another Limited Partnership and walked away, they challenged the decision.

The obstacle was “The Multi-Family Dwelling Ordinance”, it regulates land based on elevation (no regulation below 2500, one for 2500-3000, another for 3000+) and use.

This piece was above 2500 feet so legal for multi-family dwelling use. This deal went on for several years but eventually was overturned in favor of the new owners, Lott Partnership II in 2009. 

Thrash has ties to Snowbird Anglers via his tenure as a Graham County District Forest Ranger from August 1961 to September 1964 having promoted developments and improvements in recreation including trout fishing on the Cheoah Ranger District in order to attract the very folks to whom he now sells real estate.

He just happens to be the chairman.

Title: CHAIRMAN
Name: TOM THRASH
Business Address:
PO BOX 38
CANDLER NC 28715

Source: http://www.secretary.state.nc.us/corporations/Corp.aspx?PitemId=5419186

and 2/5/2002 . . .

Incorporator:
Thomas L. Thrash
P.O. Box 543
Big Piney, Wyoming. 83113

Source: http://www.secretary.state.nc.us/corporations/Filings.aspx?PItemId=5419186

As well as a member of their Board of Directors.

Old man “John Bemis Veach Jr.” who died in 2005, owned all the Snowbird property (with relatives) and was kinda friendly with Mark E. Ray who had been “Under Secretary” of the USDA Forest Service.

John Jr. had been President of National Forest Products Association and Ray was a VP.

http://www.muckety.com/National-Forest-Products-Association/5059010.muckety

In 1973 during his tenure as President of the Bemis Lumber Co., John Jr. sold 17,000 acres including the Little Snowbird section at public auction.

Mark E. Ray is a Lobbyist for Trout Unlimited

http://www.muckety.com/Trout-Unlimited/5005759.muckety

It's easy to see how the FS intentionally threw us under the bus in the TU lawsuit. It's easy to understand why they quickly tore up the trail network. It's obvious why TU (attack dog for hire) ignores all the areas currently under development that threaten fish by causing far more sedimentation than wheelers ever did.

Seems like it would be worth the money to hire an engineer to do a water quality study now and compare it to the Tellico trail days. Lawsuit to follow...

And they call themselves "environmentalists"

It doesn't matter what TU says, they don't care about the environment. Or maybe the majority of the membership does care. They need to learn the facts before they support a cause for their so-called leadership.

So... are we talkin about the snowbird where we went wheelin right next to the old trails?

http://snowbirdanglers.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=50&Itemid=60

And they call themselves "environmentalists"

It doesn't matter what TU says, they don't care about the environment. Or maybe the majority of the membership does care. They need to learn the facts before they support a cause for their so-called leadership.

they're nothing but sheep. always have been. I was asked to join a local TU chapter and told them to kiss dicks. I then went on to tell them about the Tellico situation and none of them knew anything. They care about fishing and perpetuating their hobby. All the money that's collected goes to the head office and they are the ones with the agenda. Most of the members are blindly following along thinking they're really doing some good :shaking:

In case you are wondering, the Tellico case is moving forward. SFWDA and it's attorneys are expecting a hearing date to be assigned by the Court any day. The Hearing date appears to be imminent. We anticipate that the Hearing will be held in a Courthouse somewhere in Western North Carolina.

These cases are unique and complicated. Generally, they are administrative in nature. Therefore, we anticipate this Hearing will consist of Lawyer presented arguments to a Judge. This is not a trial. However, we believe it is a positive sign that the Court wants to hear from the Party's in the case and not simply rely on the briefs.

Stay tuned as we now begin to see the fruits of all the effort that has been put forth. As soon as the venue and the date certain for the Hearing is available and known I will post the information.

SFWDA and I appreciate your patience and support to date. As we move forward it will be extremely important that we support this action through the process.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

Until i have more to report......Flint

Thanks for the update Flint!

I'm curious....what is the desired outcome of the continued court action? Please just correct me because I am just asking, but I thought that the OHV area has been destroyed. So even if we win...what do we win?

I'm curious....what is the desired outcome of the continued court action? Please just correct me because I am just asking, but I thought that the OHV area has been destroyed. So even if we win...what do we win?

Great question.

This is what makes these actions so very complex. Winning could mean a lot of things. There are many possibilities. However, the answer to your question will most likely be what can be negotiated between parties.

If the judge finds in favor of SFWDA he could grant the motion SFWDA asked for in the brief.

He could deny both our motion and the defendant's motion and tell the Defendant to work with SFWDA to come to a solution and bring back to the court.

He could deny both motions and hold a trial. Where he would hear from witnesses and experts and then make a decision.

So there are many ways this can play out. Of course, there could be appeals filed either way.

This is what makes these actions so very complex. Winning could mean a lot of things. There are many possibilities. However, the answer to your question will most likely be what can be negotiated between parties.

If the judge finds in favor of SFWDA he could grant the motion SFWDA asked for in the brief.

He could deny both our motion and the defendant's motion and tell the Defendant to work with SFWDA to come to a solution and bring back to the court.

He could deny both motions and hold a trial. Where he would hear from witnesses and experts and then make a decision.

So there are many ways this can play out. Of course, there could be appeals filed either way.

You missed the point of my question. I am saying...even if SFWD wins everything and the courts say go back to Tellico and wheel your brains out...what is there to go back to?? It is my understanding that the OHV area has been destroyed by logging to the point on no return. I guess the forest would return in the next 20 years or so, but what would we win now? Are the trails that were there even there anymore?

I am all for helping the next generation, but just wanted to be clear as to what is trying to be accomplished here.

I'd say that one of the main things is setting a precedent. Next OHV area that they want to close down we can use this one as an example - we got kicked out and now things are worse than they were before and it was all just a ploy to profit certain groups. Basically, TU loses face. So the next time TU tries to play the "ugly OHV user" card, we can trot this out there.

I'd say that one of the main things is setting a precedent. Next OHV area that they want to close down we can use this one as an example - we got kicked out and now things are worse than they were before and it was all just a ploy to profit certain groups. Basically, TU loses face. So the next time TU tries to play the "ugly OHV user" card, we can trot this out there.

Good point...I just didn't want to get my hopes up that I might ever have anything to wheel again in Tellico...so is it safe to say that Tellico is dead...period...no matter what the outcome is in the courts?

I'm not saying that either. A best case scenario is that we get access to the land back. But, as you say, that may be a moot point now.

I'm not saying that either. A best case scenario is that we get access to the land back. But, as you say, that may be a moot point now.

I suppose things like slickrock are hard to kill...it might be a little barren, but nature will eventually return. I had some land logged and you can hardly tell 10 years later. Although you know how terrible we 4 wheelers are for the forest....I mean look at how much better it is now that we're gone :flipoff2:

You missed the point of my question. I am saying...even if SFWD wins everything and the courts say go back to Tellico and wheel your brains out...what is there to go back to?? It is my understanding that the OHV area has been destroyed by logging to the point on no return. I guess the forest would return in the next 20 years or so, but what would we win now? Are the trails that were there even there anymore?

I am all for helping the next generation, but just wanted to be clear as to what is trying to be accomplished here.

Well, look at it this way, we have a clean slate to design and build a sustainable trail system on the same 8000 acres where the old trails once existed. This could be one of the options if SFWDA prevails. The land is still there, it still belongs to the people of the United States, it is still designated for OHV uses, so never say never.

I think folks have written off the Tellico OHV area before the fat lady has sung. I am sure some of this is due to the animosity toward SFWDA and folks thinking there is nothing that can be done. All of this is understandable, however, you have to remember Erin Brockovich won her case. It was to prove Hexavalent Chromium ground water contamination by a single 33 year old mother. Also, it was the largest settlement, $333MM, paid in a direct action case in the US.

Keep the faith....never know what may happen....

Here is what the FS is up to. We need to make battery operated crawlers and ask for some trails...do you think the FS will give them to us!

FOREST SERVICE ALERT



Jan. 3, 2012





Forest Service to Hold Trails Workshop in Mo rganton

and Andrews Next Week



The USDA Forest Service National Forests in North

Carolina will hold a workshop next week in two

western North Carolina towns regarding the agency's

Trails Strategy initiative. The workshop will be held

January 9 in Mo rganton , N.C. and again in Andrews,

N.C. on January 10.



If they plan to attend the workshop, trail users or

group members are encouraged to register this week.

The registration form is posted online at:

http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5343920.pdf



In 2012, trail enthusiasts and others with knowledge

of non- mo torized trails in North Carolina will have a

chance to provide input on the Forest Service trail

planning process. The Forest Service will host the

public workshop at multiple locations around the

Nantahala and Pisgah National Forests in January 2012.



Next week's workshops will occur on the following

dates and locations:



January 9

(snow date Jan.12)

Re: Nantahala/Pisgah National Forests trails

Cooperative Extension Building

130 Am mo ns Dr., Suite 2

Mo rganton , N.C.





For mo re information on the Trails Strategy

initiative and upcoming workshop locations, visit

www.fs.usda.gov/goto/nctrailstrategy.

havent followed the Tellico saga in quite a while, figured it was all dead and gone now that sidewalks have been installed for the logging companies, which was really the goal all along IMO.

Anyway, an angle that SFWDA may wish to explore is the patent history of that land. Since it has never been sold for developement of houses, etc., it has probably been owned by a logging company, conservation company or the gubmint for its entire history.

I do know that an individual can make a claim on land (yes, even in modern times) and with the right procedures can file for and receive a land patent. Through the BLM records in VA, you should be able to find who holds lawful, legal and equitable title to this land and yes they are all different. If you apply for and receive the patent on a piece of land, you own it hook line and sinker, no permits, no property taxes, all mineral, oil and water rights are included, etc.. It is good old fashioned fee simple land.

I know Alaska, Texas and Florida have patents available for sure and I would assume most other states would as well. You may also see allodial title or title in allodium. I am using land instead of property or real estate for a reason. There are differences there too. The lawyers and most other people dont even know about this stuff, but it could be a feather in your cap. The golden rule is he who has the gold makes the rules...Kind of tough for TU or anyone else to tell you what to do when you own the 8000 acres.....

With 8000 acres there should be no trouble making new trails and even setting it up like one of the many sucessfull private parks that exist around the country. Its not like no one has ever done that before.

havent followed the Tellico saga in quite a while, figured it was all dead and gone now that sidewalks have been installed for the logging companies, which was really the goal all along IMO.

Anyway, an angle that SFWDA may wish to explore is the patent history of that land. Since it has never been sold for developement of houses, etc., it has probably been owned by a logging company, conservation company or the gubmint for its entire history.

I do know that an individual can make a claim on land (yes, even in modern times) and with the right procedures can file for and receive a land patent. Through the BLM records in VA, you should be able to find who holds lawful, legal and equitable title to this land and yes they are all different. If you apply for and receive the patent on a piece of land, you own it hook line and sinker, no permits, no property taxes, all mineral, oil and water rights are included, etc.. It is good old fashioned fee simple land.

I know Alaska, Texas and Florida have patents available for sure and I would assume most other states would as well. You may also see allodial title or title in allodium. I am using land instead of property or real estate for a reason. There are differences there too. The lawyers and most other people dont even know about this stuff, but it could be a feather in your cap. The golden rule is he who has the gold makes the rules...Kind of tough for TU or anyone else to tell you what to do when you own the 8000 acres.....

With 8000 acres there should be no trouble making new trails and even setting it up like one of the many sucessfull private parks that exist around the country. Its not like no one has ever done that before.

Loan me the money and I'll get right on it.

Derek

Need a loan?

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13676592&postcount=208

The dude is Thomas L. Thrash

He is a property investor, operates as “Thrash Limited Partnership” in which he and his Wife Lora R. Thrash are principles.

He spends more time in Court than he does on the toilet. There was a big deal over another parcel he once owned years ago when he started to finalize his plans for it.

He was pissed because the courts prevented him from going forward with the project via an ordinance that derailed his plans so he sold to another Limited Partnership and walked away, they challenged the decision.

The obstacle was “The Multi-Family Dwelling Ordinance”, it regulates land based on elevation (no regulation below 2500, one for 2500-3000, another for 3000+) and use.

This piece was above 2500 feet so legal for multi-family dwelling use. This deal went on for several years but eventually was overturned in favor of the new owners, Lott Partnership II in 2009. 

Thrash has ties to Snowbird Anglers via his tenure as a Graham County District Forest Ranger from August 1961 to September 1964 having promoted developments and improvements in recreation including trout fishing on the Cheoah Ranger District in order to attract the very folks to whom he now sells real estate.

He just happens to be the chairman.



Sounds like the evil little dude in "Roadhouse" That Swayze put in his place.

Are you watching Rodahouse? Cause its on AMC right now which made that quite funny:laughing:

You can bet Thrash ain't watchin' "Road House", he's watching his freakin' bank account grow!!!

Latest news on the lawsuit.....SFWDA Lawyer has received a confirmation from the Court canceling the proposed hearing on February 22, 2012. This was due to scheduling conflicts and will reschedule for a later date. No date has been set. It is anticipated that the hearing will be reschedule for the May/June time frame. I will let you know as soon as I know the date.

This was posted over on Hardline and I figured I would re-post it over here.


http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2dd10b3127cceffebaeacc66b00000040O00AauG7lo1ZOW IPbz4I/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/
Looking up upper two
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2dd10b3127cceffeb0b9a869700000030O00AauG7lo1ZOW IPbz4I/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/
Top of upper two
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2dd10b3127cceffeb471b070000000030O00AauG7lo1ZOW IPbz4I/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/
This is trail one right along side of the creek. There was alot of silt flowing down the road.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2dd10b3127cceffeb4e7f47f800000030O00AauG7lo1ZOW IPbz4I/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/
Middle of lower two. You can just barely tell where the ledge is.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2dd10b3127cceffebdbf707a200000030O00AauG7lo1ZOW IPbz4I/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/
This is pretty much what every trail looks like. Trees down, grass planted and sloped. It would be almost impossible to use these trails for anything else but to hike. Even that was hard.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2dd10b3127cceffeaaa40e6c900000030O00AauG7lo1ZOW IPbz4I/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/
Looking up from the bottom of Slick Rock.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2dd10b3127cceffea67f2a68500000030O00AauG7lo1ZOW IPbz4I/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2dd10b3127cceffeb01cf86c700000030O00AauG7lo1ZOW IPbz4I/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/
Ledge top of Slick Rock.

Anyways this is what I did today. It took me a few hours , but an easy day hike for anyone that is mostly in shape.

:(

damn, I need another drink :bawling:

What a waste of good trails....

those pictures are sad beyond what words can describe :(

Latest news on the lawsuit.....SFWDA Lawyer has received a confirmation from the Court canceling the proposed hearing on February 22, 2012. This was due to scheduling conflicts and will reschedule for a later date. No date has been set. It is anticipated that the hearing will be reschedule for the May/June time frame. I will let you know as soon as I know the date.

I'm sure you would have posted if you know, but is there any update on the date?

This was posted over on Hardline and I figured I would re-post it over here.


http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2dd10b3127cceffebaeacc66b00000040O00AauG7lo1ZOW IPbz4I/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/
Looking up upper two
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2dd10b3127cceffeb0b9a869700000030O00AauG7lo1ZOW IPbz4I/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/
Top of upper two
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2dd10b3127cceffeb471b070000000030O00AauG7lo1ZOW IPbz4I/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/
This is trail one right along side of the creek. There was alot of silt flowing down the road.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2dd10b3127cceffeb4e7f47f800000030O00AauG7lo1ZOW IPbz4I/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/
Middle of lower two. You can just barely tell where the ledge is.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2dd10b3127cceffebdbf707a200000030O00AauG7lo1ZOW IPbz4I/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/
This is pretty much what every trail looks like. Trees down, grass planted and sloped. It would be almost impossible to use these trails for anything else but to hike. Even that was hard.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2dd10b3127cceffeaaa40e6c900000030O00AauG7lo1ZOW IPbz4I/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/
Looking up from the bottom of Slick Rock.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2dd10b3127cceffea67f2a68500000030O00AauG7lo1ZOW IPbz4I/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/
http://im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a2dd10b3127cceffeb01cf86c700000030O00AauG7lo1ZOW IPbz4I/cC/f%3D0/ps%3D50/r%3D0/rx%3D720/ry%3D480/
Ledge top of Slick Rock.

Anyways this is what I did today. It took me a few hours , but an easy day hike for anyone that is mostly in shape.


I would like to do this hike for old times sake. Does anyone know the best place to park for a hike of the old Tellico trails.....trial 1 side (NC) or compground (TN) side? Will I be busted by rangers and/or Trouts Unlimited guys?

You can hike anywhere in the Nantahala Forest without a problem..
Where to park , would depend on what section you wanted to go to.

No word yet on a rescheduled hearing date. I will try to get an update on when we think we will know something this week.

We just drove thru there yesterday. No construction going on nor equipment in the area. The road is not finished, looks like they just ran out of money and abandoned the project.
The old switchbacks are still open and drivable, just the surrounding mountain side tore all to hell

Always wanted to go wheel Tellico. I remember watching the old Off Highway Adventures with Rick Russel with my dad when I was younger. Then seeing it on Xtreme 4x4 made me wanna go there even more. This is so sad to hear/see. :(

Thanks so much for the pictures! I always have wondered what it looked like since the last time I was there.

Thanks for the pictures. We have heard that we may see a hearing date for sometime this summer. There is a backlog of cases and one of the Judges has or will be retiring which has thrown the schedules off a bit. This is the most recent information I have as of first of the week. Will try to keep you all on notice as soon as we know a date and time specific.