I just got off the phone with Dave Cole.

There IS progress being made with the 29 palms expantion.

In A GOOD WAY!

We need two things badly:

1. At least 2,000 comments sent in.

I am working on a campaign for this starting Monday. Hopefully with some vendors helping out.

2. WE NEED PEOPLE AT THESE MEETINGS!!!

Ontario 5:00pm – 9:00 pm
Wednesday, April 13 – Ontario High School Gym
901 w. Francis St.

Victorville 5:00pm – 9:00 pm
Thursday April 13 – Hilton Garden Inn, Mirage/Sahara Conference Center
12603 Mariposa Rd.


If you can make them in ANYWAY, please do. Call people you know in the area, e-mail and facebook them, etc....


For you NorCal folks, Amy and Randii are doing a comment writing workshop at Cal4 HQ in Sacramento. 10 AM this SATURDAY..

Here is the text from her e-mail:

There's going to be a "Friends & Family" Comments workshop held on April 16th dedicated to the Johnson Valley Marine withdrawal.

This is an informal meeting to be held at the CA4WDC Office in Sacramento, for all those that want to brush up on the ABC's of Comment Writing, get help with reading the document, talk about strategy, etc.

Randy Burleson and I will be leading the discussion, and we look forward to seeing a lot of familiar and new faces, and working with others who have been through a comments workshop, and may be able to help teach others the skills they have already learned.

The Johnson Valley Marine withdrawal is one of the most importance issues facing OHV recreation, and we have to attack the document - it's up to us to act and make a difference.

Please let me know if you are interested in attending, this isn't a formal session, but we would like to have an idea who is coming. And please pass on the invite to others you think may be interested.

There is no charge, and everyone is on their own for lunch and/or refreshments. (You can always bring something to show with the group!)

I will be at the Victorville meeting Thur, hope to see a few of you there:)

Kurt lets see what we can do about getting that Cal 4 wheel meeting streamed online.

Kurt lets see what we can do about getting that Cal 4 wheel meeting streamed online.

I will e-mail Randii and Amy again asking them..


Eric, I am going to start a thread in chit chat on this (and maybe cross posting to general 4x4)...any help pushing it would be apprciated..

I sent an email to Mark Cave the new president of Cal 4 wheel, and requested that they stream the april 16th meeting.

I am going to the Ontario meeting tonight. I can't make the meeting on the 16th (I will be in Boston) but the streamed online meeting is doable.:)

Just wanted to make sure everyone understands that the meetings will be in an open house format to allow individual interaction with the public. There will not be a microphone to address the entire meeting but rather the ability for the public to interact with representatives of the Land Expansion Project. Last night's meeting went well in my opinion. We really want to hear from the public and get quality input to put in the EIS (Environmental Impact Statement) so that when it goes before congress & the President that they can make the best decision. Please let everyone you know about the project and that there are several ways to get your input on it. At the meetings we will have comment tables so you can write it out, computers so you can put it right into the website and a court reporter so you can give oral comments. Also if English is not your first language and would like to submit your comment in your native language we will take that too! I will be at these next two meetings tonight and tomorrow representing the Marines in the Alternatives section and look forward to seeing you all there!

Mike
GySgt USMC

For you NorCal folks, Amy and Randii are doing a comment writing workshop at Cal4 HQ in Sacramento. 10 AM this SATURDAY..

Here is the text from her e-mail:

There's going to be a "Friends & Family" Comments workshop held on April 16th dedicated to the Johnson Valley Marine withdrawal.

This is an informal meeting to be held at the CA4WDC Office in Sacramento, for all those that want to brush up on the ABC's of Comment Writing, get help with reading the document, talk about strategy, etc.

Randy Burleson and I will be leading the discussion, and we look forward to seeing a lot of familiar and new faces, and working with others who have been through a comments workshop, and may be able to help teach others the skills they have already learned.

The Johnson Valley Marine withdrawal is one of the most importance issues facing OHV recreation, and we have to attack the document - it's up to us to act and make a difference.

Please let me know if you are interested in attending, this isn't a formal session, but we would like to have an idea who is coming. And please pass on the invite to others you think may be interested.

There is no charge, and everyone is on their own for lunch and/or refreshments. (You can always bring something to show with the group!)

For the SoCal folks, we are setting up two comments workshops. Sunday May 1 in Glendale and Tuesday, May 3 in Johnson Valley vicinity (possibly Victorville/Lucerne Valley).

The purpose of the SoCal comments workshops is to teach you to dissect the DEIS and find the errors, the weak spots and the failures on the part of the Marines to meet the NEPA requirements. These workshops are for those who want to go for the jugular (metaphorically), the people who are willing to learn the fine art of finding all of the undotted i's and uncrossed t's. We know that there are folks in our community of recreationalists and residents, and businesses who have this ability and we want to give you the tools.

As with the NORCal event, Amy and Randy will be our guides. They're good, they're tough and they're experienced.

See Harry Baker at the Ontario & Victorville Meetings for more details. This is happening fast and plans are coming together.

snaps, im swamped with a massive dead line. is sent in a letter via the link at the top of pirate right now.

ill def keep an eye on the Johnson Valley forums, im new to the area and have yet to use the land but would sure as hell like to see it stay open for when i have free time to get out there.

Just got home and read this I am loading up and plan on heading up to the meeting to night. Is there anything special I need to bring?

On 12 hr shift work. Wish i could go.:(

Just submitted my family letter.


Hello,
My wife and I moved here 8 years ago over 2000 miles away just For Johnson valley, Nothing else. We moved here from the north east coast where wheeling is poaching. There is no support for
Offroading In the North Eastern States. We came from a area where Friday night the local kids would Illegally drive on others land and trash other people’s property. We saw the rare opportunity Johnson valley provides for everyone. So we started are family here. We now have a 5 year old son. Because of local clubs, and friendly wheeling trips offroading has become a treasure to value and take care of. My son now makes it a point to pick up litter and spend time outdoors, in a age where kids show little respect and no desire to leave the TV.
We have 36,000 in receipts just from last year spent in the Johnson valley area in regards to offroading in Johnson Valley. I have purchased a RV, Buggy , Diesel truck, and a Trailer, Just to use in Johnson Valley OHV on top of the 36,000 dollars. Not including the thousand of dollars in tools and supplies to use these toys. We have been coming to Johnson valley OHV for over 7 years and there is NOTHING compared to the terrain in the United States of this size for OHV.
My question to you is why is this land needed if The Commander and Chief says we are removing are troops overseas? Why have you not considered more going EAST.. Leave Johnson valley ALONE? Why can’t you Take the reserve land north? Why not use China Lake? How is the impact considered minimal if you have to buy everyone out? Force everyone to start poaching rock crawling/desert riding? How is it minimal for you to make me and my family Leave California when this overtaxed state will have one less desirable thing? I do appreciate your time if your reading this and hope you Leave Johnson Valley OHV INTACT.

Thank You
Mark, Jen, & Levi Underwood

In for the V.V. meeting.

My Dad and myself filled it out Kurt.

Submitted my letter. Posted this on a few other forums.

Submitted my .02 from here in Nebraska. We love JV!!!!!!!!!!!!!

For the SoCal folks, we are setting up two comments workshops. Sunday May 1 in Glendale and Tuesday, May 3 in Johnson Valley vicinity (possibly Victorville/Lucerne Valley).

The purpose of the SoCal comments workshops is to teach you to dissect the DEIS and find the errors, the weak spots and the failures on the part of the Marines to meet the NEPA requirements. These workshops are for those who want to go for the jugular (metaphorically), the people who are willing to learn the fine art of finding all of the undotted i's and uncrossed t's. We know that there are folks in our community of recreationalists and residents, and businesses who have this ability and we want to give you the tools.

As with the NORCal event, Amy and Randy will be our guides. They're good, they're tough and they're experienced.

See Harry Baker at the Ontario & Victorville Meetings for more details. This is happening fast and plans are coming together.


This is good news Helen. I'm gonna try to make Victorville tomorrow, will look for Harry.

I can't make any meetings, but I put in my opinion on the extranet. I hope it helps.

sent letter

wish I could attend

done.

GOD SAVE JV. Sent in my letter.

I went to the Ontario meeting tonight and just so people are aware this is not a 4 hrs meeting you can simply show up sometime between 5 and 9 pm sign in and fill out a comment form put in the box and leave if you are short on time. They offer 3 ways to fill out the forms. You can write one on your own, You can fill it out on a laptops set up there or you can verbally tell your comments to a stenographer and she will type it for you. how much easier can it get?? Come on people lets not think of the reasons we can't spend some of your time to help the fight to save this lets stand up and fight to keep the Hammers for us as well as our kids so they can have places to enjoy this sport as well. I will be going to the victorville meeting tomorrow night as well so if there is anyway to make it please make the effort now and not let this be something we look back and say remember when????

SHOW UP !!!!!!!

I went to the Ontario meeting tonight and just so people are aware this is not a 4 hrs meeting you can simply show up sometime between 5 and 9 pm sign in and fill out a comment form put in the box and leave if you are short on time. They offer 3 ways to fill out the forms. You can write one on your own, You can fill it out on a laptops set up there or you can verbally tell your comments to a stenographer and she will type it for you. how much easier can it get?? Come on people lets not think of the reasons we can't spend some of your time to help the fight to save this lets stand up and fight to keep the Hammers for us as well as our kids so they can have places to enjoy this sport as well. I will be going to the victorville meeting tomorrow night as well so if there is anyway to make it please make the effort now and not let this be something we look back and say remember when????

SHOW UP !!!!!!!

Just got home from Ontario, think we had a pretty good turnout. There is a lot of us on staff at the meetings to help out so if you have any question please ask. Like SoCal said, you can spend as little or as much time as you want with us. Our main purpose for these meetings is to get the public's input to make this the best possible process it can be. See everyone in Victorville tomorrow:)

Mike

P.S.
Pirate, thanks for putting up the banner, this is really important to all recreational users!

Does anyone have any names/emails/phone numbers for any Marines involved in the expansion? I'd like to send a few emails within house if possible.

Also alittle FYI that I learned last night.....
if you cant make it the the meetings at least fill out the form on line if you seen the maps of what they want to take we are going to loose everything to almost Camp Rock Rd. Key points are we are fine with alternative plan #3 whick give them the expansion to the east and we will loose nothing or Alt. plan #7 whick you will see nothing about on any of the posters they have displayed and that is NO CHANGE TO THE PERIMITTER OF THE BASE. I am not telling you what to say just sharing what I learned...

But if you can SHOW UP......

Letter sent. If I could make to any of the meetings I would, but 2,500+ miles is a bit of a drive.

Just wanted to make sure everyone understands that the meetings will be in an open house format to allow individual interaction with the public. There will not be a microphone to address the entire meeting but rather the ability for the public to interact with representatives of the Land Expansion Project. Last night's meeting went well in my opinion. We really want to hear from the public and get quality input to put in the EIS (Environmental Impact Statement) so that when it goes before congress & the President that they can make the best decision. Please let everyone you know about the project and that there are several ways to get your input on it. At the meetings we will have comment tables so you can write it out, computers so you can put it right into the website and a court reporter so you can give oral comments. Also if English is not your first language and would like to submit your comment in your native language we will take that too! I will be at these next two meetings tonight and tomorrow representing the Marines in the Alternatives section and look forward to seeing you all there!

Mike
GySgt USMC


Mike, Thank you for the educational process last night.
Mike was standing at the Alt 6 display basicly taking a pretty good verbal beating and took it like a man with a smile on his face. He was respectful and open to discussions. While I don't think Mike can decide which alternative the Marines should go with, he seemed proactive in looking at all possible suggestions. It was a very good format, and the Marines all had a very open posture regarding OHV needs.

Some people might think that its possible that if given the proper tools the Marines might seek additional options, I tend to believe that this just may be the case. My perception is that a large contingency currently recreate in Johnson Valley, are avid OHV users, and beleive that our country needs to continue offering safe areas in which our families can recreate.

I firmly beilive we can oppose Alternate 6 while still supporting the needs of of armed forces, and think its our Civic Duty to participate in this process rather then sit idle and watch it unfold. Marines like a good fight, so lets give them one.

It was a great meeting, I can't suggest enough that anyone who can, attend the last one tonight.

Mike, Thank you for the educational process last night.
Mike was standing at the Alt 6 display basicly taking a pretty good verbal beating and took it like a man with a smile on his face. He was respectful and open to discussions. While I don't think Mike can decide which alternative the Marines should go with, he seemed proactive in looking at all possible suggestions. It was a very good format, and the Marines all had a very open posture regarding OHV needs.

Some people might think that its possible that if given the proper tools the Marines might seek additional options, I tend to believe that this just may be the case. My perception is that a large contingency currently recreate in Johnson Valley, are avid OHV users, and beleive that our country needs to continue offering safe areasm in which our families can recreate.

I firmly beilive we can oppose Alternate 6 while still supporting the needs of of armed forces, and think its our Civic Duty to participate in this process rather then sit idle and watch it unfold. Marines like a good fight, so lets give them one.

It was a great meeting, I can't suggest enough that anyone who can, attend the last one tonight.

X2. We need to let the base know they have options we don't this not an exchage of land but a loss of it... Freedom is the key word... this is not a hobby yet a life style and or business. For many of us. This is a time to stand up and be counted as tomorrows off roaders are depending on us...... as well as todays!!!!!

Does anyone know if there is a direct e-mail addy to send in comments?

20 Comments sent In from us Guys and Gals here in MN yesterday... I'm going to see if I can drum up some more today...

Don't give up hope guys - there is still time to act!
Here is a summary after being at a couple of the meetings:
1] The Marines are telling us what land they want and how they are going to get it. [FALSE]

2] There’s nothing we can do so stop from losing our land. [FALSE]

This comment period is vitally as it’s the public’s chance to voice our opinion. WE, THE PEOPLE if we want to be heard and want reaction. There is an independent company to compile our comments and put into action the alternative that is going to be the best compromise for everyone.

Originally there was a ‘No-Action Alternative’ and five Alternative plans proposed. After the first comment period in which nearly 20,000 comments were received, the Marines created Alternative 6 and named it “The Preferred Alternative” DON’T BE FOOLED as this IS NOT the preferred alternative for us OHV people! We want Alternative #3 as it leaves 100% of Johnson Valley open 12 months out of the year. Alternative #6 would only leave 44% of Johnson Valley open for only 10 months out of the year.

FURTHER MORE, Alternative #6 has a loophole that could keep it closed to the public for the entire year. **The ’10 month open window’ is subject to a determination by the Commanding General that the area has been returned to a condition suitable for authorized public access following each Marine Expeditionary Brigade Exercise. The “compromise” is that the Marine’s only need two months out of the year to complete the ‘full scale exercise’ therefore 10 months would be open to the public. It is entirely possible that the Commanding General could declare that [due to budgetary constraints] the Military does not have the funds to “return the area to a condition suitable for authorized public access [‘clean up’] therefore leaving our now limited area shut down.


Alternative #3:
This option leaves Johnson Valley OHV area untouched. Rather, it states the Marine Corp would have to move the proposition to the East of their current boundaries. This would mean that the Government would need to de-designate wilderness area. Note this particular ‘wilderness area’ was used by General Patton to train military before it was designated as wilderness. The other Alternative de-designates OHV areas that are being used by Americans for recreation, living, income and more.


The following are “comments” for Alternative #3: [reasons to expand to the East by 200,000 acres]• No impact to OHV opportunities in Johnson Valley

• More compatible areas with the proposed action

• Less impact to local business owners

• Less impact to recreational opportunities

• Less populated

• The area has already been used by the military in the past

• Economy will be less affected

Reasons against expansion to the West• Reduction in area for off-road and outdoor recreational opportunities

• Reduction in area for the film industry

• Negative impact on the economy

• May impact public health and safety of surrounding communities

• May affect Southern California Edison (SCE) electric transmission facilities and/or distribution facilities

• May promote illegal riding

• Potential impact on groundwater supplies and quality

• Potential impact on biological resources (e.g., desert tortoise and prairie falcon)


Keep in mind that the King of the Hammers event draws over 30,000 for their one week event and the total comments received during the first comment period was less than 20,000


IT’S TIME TO BE HEARD IF YOU WANT TO DRIVE & CAMP IN JOHNSON VALLEY WITH YOUR KIDS /GRANDKIDS.

Physical bodies and written comments at the meetings are best - you can show up any time between 5 and 9pm to fill out a form. BUT if you can't be there please...

Click here to vote for Alternative #3
https://extranet.tecinc.com/29Palms_DEIS/

done

I am looking at Alternative 3..

Exactly WHAT wilderness area would it take?? :confused:

It looks like the base would just be up against them.

went to the ontario meeting last night. talked to several civilian reps as well as several marines. was shown a lot of maps and info. comments have been made. mickey

I am looking at Alternative 3..

Exactly WHAT wilderness area would it take?? :confused:

It looks like the base would just be up against them.

Correct, Alt 3 does NOT include any wilderness, it goes right up to the boundary.

It was suggested in the original comment period that they investigate the de-designation of wilderness in order to provide them a larger area to expand east, but they did not persue that option. Probably figure that it would attract WAY too much attention from the green groups.

I am looking at Alternative 3..

Exactly WHAT wilderness area would it take?? :confused:

It looks like the base would just be up against them.

If they take NO wilderness, it leaves a large triangle of wilderness that would effect their air space and as Donald mentions they do not want to approve Congress about redeisgnation of wilderness.

I have property on Camprock rd if some one wants to suply a sign or banner Ill desplay it for all that pass by

If they take NO wilderness, it leaves a large triangle of wilderness that would effect their air space and as Donald mentions they do not want to approve Congress about redeisgnation of wilderness.

The reason I am asking is that I want to research why and when those areas where turned into wilderness. Patton trained on the east side of 29P iirc.

I have property on Camprock rd if some one wants to suply a sign or banner Ill desplay it for all that pass by

Awesome! Thank you!

I will make some calls tomorrow. Look for a pm....

I went to both meeting the last two nights and seen some of the regulars from the lake bed as well as some new faces and I think its great we are getting out there to do our parts. I want to start by saying this is not meant to bash or offend anyone I do want to go on record and note the fact and give the credit that is due the Tony and the GENRIGHT crew they were the only manufacturer that I seen there at either meeting. If someone else was there I didn't see them or they were not sporting their logos? I know that from now on any chance I get to support GENRIGHT I will. I know the effort it takes to go out and do this stuff on a work night as well as the some what short notice some people got. But the price we will pay if they get what they want is not going to be good for us. This can change our world as we know it. So take the time to go on line and fill out a comment form and let them know WE CARE... FYI there is not limit as to how many you fill I was informed tonight at the Victoville meeting.

Again THANKS TONY and everyone else that was either there or went on line For all your effort and support to help...

Does anyone have any names/emails/phone numbers for any Marines involved in the expansion? I'd like to send a few emails within house if possible.

Haven't ever tried calling or emailing, but the the phone and email listed on their website is 760-830-3764 and SMBPLMSWEBPAO@usmc.mil

Also have some names of people I talked to at the meetings if you think that would be helpful?

Some people might think that its possible that if given the proper tools the Marines might seek additional options, I tend to believe that this just may be the case.

Jeff,

What "proper tools" do the Marines need to seek additional options?

What can we do to help them get those tools?

I can't be there for the meeting . But i sent in a letter
thanks for the hard work guys

Done.

Don't think I'll make any meetings, but do what I can from here. Good luck!

Here is an article from our local paper regarding the Victorville meeting last night:

http://www.vvdailypress.com/news/victorville-27110-voice-displeasure.html

Jeff,

What "proper tools" do the Marines need to seek additional options?

What can we do to help them get those tools?

The Public's input, ideas and potential solutions.

Tony, Please include this into your reasons that Alternative 6 does not work.



This is a large potion of the basis of my comments;

Currently the 29 palms Marine base is unable to secure the peremeter of its boundries it shares with Johnson Valley OHV area. This can be shown by an example of the the 2011 King of the Hammers event. Participants where educated about the boundries and warned of a live fire training operation (Mohave Viper) taking place the same week. This boundry has been in place as far as I can remember. All that being said, 29 Palms Marines base issued 80 trasspassing citations during the week of KOH. I can assure you no one wants to go off-roading on the Marine base during a live fire training excersise.
The reason the citation numbers are so high is that the peremeter is not posted or secured in the Verde mine area of JVOHV area. Why is this important?

If the 29 Palms Marine base can not enforce its current boundry, how will it enforce the new boundries that the public have enjoyed for OHV recreation for many years? The cost of enforcement, and the security of this new boundry will be overwhelming to the marine base, tax payers, and our already debt ridden federal budget. I can foresee no possible way the security of this new boundry can be enforced, and it will require the Marine base an unimaginable burden to ensure public safety for many years. In short OHV rights aside the security of this new border will be a disaster.

I predict that the US Marine Corps will be engaged in a potential safety issue for no less than 10 years as the un-educated public will still attempt to enjoy the same OHV area they have been using their entire lives.


Alternative 3 will be a much better long term solution as the public does not currently recreate in this location. I firmly believe in providing our armed forces with the best possible training we can offer as citizens, and I believe that Alternative 6 does not provide them with this luxury.







We Must show a stronger reason to push them east then the people who wish to push them onto the OHV area. Just because we like to recreate is not enough. Using this OHV area for traning will be a disaster. Mark my words. It makes absolutly no sense! Shared use will not work.

The reason I am asking is that I want to research why and when those areas where turned into wilderness. Patton trained on the east side of 29P iirc.

Sheephole Valley wilderness is a relatively new wildernes area that was used for recreation even past it's designation in 1994. As stated it had been a training area since WWII and even into the early 90's there were still some manuevers conducted out that way. When you look at the maps surrounding 29 Palms you can see all of the wilderness that is an obstacle for expansion of the base unless congress gets creative with the input from us. These same wilderness area have shut out a ton of recreational users as well as your Marines.

http://www.wilderness.net/index.cfm?fuse=NWPS&sec=wildView&wname=Sheephole%20Valley%20Wilderness


Mike

Gen Rite Tony...

Your post is hall of fame material.

You hit the nail squarely on the head.

Very, very well done.

If the 29 Palms Marine base can not enforce its current boundry, how will it enforce the new boundries that the public have enjoyed for OHV recreation for many years?

I am baffled that they think shared use can work and is soemthing they'd even want to take on considering costs and issues. Unless its just their strategy to get control of the land now and then kick us out later.

To see how wise military decisions in the past without good public input have effected us, check this out:

YouTube - Atomic Bomb Test on human subjects (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94ZWE8qxiAg)

You got to read this. Start at page 156 with the Marine presentation -

http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm/ca/pdf/caso/advisory_councils/dac.Par.14435.File.dat/DAC%20Transcript%203-26-11.pdf

Its from the March 26 BLM advisory group meeting in Victorville and many of us there heard this. Now its alot more clear why they can't just train up at Fort Irwin. The base PAO says:

"What makes the Marine Corps special is that we play really well with each other and not really very well with the other services. We like to have our own aircraft because we think we do it better than the other guys."

But if they "train for everyone to fight on the ground" like he said, then a big question is why aren't they training side by side with the Army up at Irwin? And with the USAF over at Nellis near Las Vegas?

There really needs to be harder look in the Eis at training together with the other military branches. Obama wants to cut defense spending so here's a excellent opportunity. Move Marine training to Irwin and work with the Army.
Marine pilots should train with the airmen at Nellis AFB. Every branch doesnt need there own million acres of land (or big chuncks of airspace) to play war games with themselves.

I defnitely support the military and want these guys to get the best training. They just seem real wasteful and different branches dont want to play with each other like the base PAO said.

Am I missing something? The more I read the more confused I get.

I went to the ontario meeting for socalrc rock crawlers and self. some of our other members made it to the victorville meeting. i just printed 300 comment forms to pass out in johnson valley over the next few weeks to recreational riders. here is my comment from ontario on wed at rdc


"i made it to ontario as well. i asked questions and filled out my comment card, and checked in with tony from gen right.

i asked the marine about the tortoise relocate during the solar project, they admitted to relocating 300 tortoise, and 90 of them died. they said they did it at the wrong time of year and the coyotes killed them. i asked them about mine access due to the mines being part of calif history, they had no answer, i asked about the cal 200 memorial access, they had no answer. i asked about what 10 months of the year we get access, they had no answer. they handed me a brochure and scooted me towards the comment box."

Wasn't able to make either meeting. I've only been to Johnson Valley a few times. I sent in my vote via email. Im hoping I can help make a difference.

Ultimately these guys are going to do what they want. But if we come together, as a community, I think it's gona make a difference in their decision. I hope everyone on this board, who wheels or has wheeled there will atleast put their 2 cents in. It only took me 2 seconds to submitt it via email..

You got to read this. Start at page 156 with the Marine presentation -

http://www.blm.gov/pgdata/etc/medialib/blm/ca/pdf/caso/advisory_councils/dac.Par.14435.File.dat/DAC%20Transcript%203-26-11.pdf

Its from the March 26 BLM advisory group meeting in Victorville and many of us there heard this. Now its alot more clear why they can't just train up at Fort Irwin. The base PAO says:

"What makes the Marine Corps special is that we play really well with each other and not really very well with the other services. We like to have our own aircraft because we think we do it better than the other guys."



This is Chris Proudfoot (sp?) and I had to walk out of the meeting shortly after he said this. I was really pissed. His attitude stunk and from what I hear his presentation continued to go downhill from there. His attitude was its a done deal .........

Sheephole Valley wilderness is a relatively new wildernes area that was used for recreation even past it's designation in 1994.


According to that link Mike sent, there was a ton of new wilderness areas created by California Desert Protection Act of 1994 - Public Law 103-433
(10/31/1994).

http://www.wilderness.net/index.cfm?fuse=NWPS&sec=wildView&WID=548&tab=Wilderness%20Laws

There is a special provision in that law for the Cleghorn Lakes wilderness next to the base. See:

http://www.wilderness.net/index.cfm?fuse=NWPS&sec=specialProvisionsResults&WID=0&PLID=16&SID=0&AID=0&CID=0&key=

(13) Certain lands in the California Desert Conservation Area, of the Bureau of Land Management, which comprise thirty-three thousand nine hundred and eighty acres, as generally depicted on a map entitled ‘‘Cleghorn Lakes Wilderness—Proposed’’, dated July 1993, and which shall be known as the Cleghorn Lakes Wilderness. The Secretary may, pursuant to an application filed by the Department of Defense, grant a right-of-way for, and authorize construction of, a road within the area depicted as ‘‘nonwilderness road corridor’’ on such map.

Does anyone know if this road has already been built for Marine training through the Cleghorn wilderness? If not, maybe they should build it now and train there.

Even if they don't admit their mistake and repeal the wilderness designations, maybe congress can create more "nonwilderness corridors" in Cleghorn, Sheephole AND Cadiz Dunes to help the Marines better train east of the base ? The Eis never even considered this.

This is interesting too. In the 1500 pages of "legislative history" section for that law, I searched through these hearings for the word "Sheephole."

http://www.wilderness.net/NWPS/documents/legislativehistory/111_11_SH_072387.pdf

At page 862 a BLM response to some allegation say:

"Several wilderness amendments in the 1981 and 1982 period were
intended to be a further refinement of preliminary BLM decisions. The changes
referred to were based on new data, reconsideration of existing data, and a
response to public opinion. The changes and alternatives were analyzed in a
draft and final environmental impact statement, and represent about a 10
percent decrease in the area recommended suitable (from 2.1 to 1.9 million
acres). For each WSA the Record of Decision gives the rationale for the change......

The largest area dropped was Sheephole/ Cadiz (WSA 305) which had been Impacted by World War II military maneuvers and lacked wilderness qualities. The subsequent environmental impact statement was neither protested or appealed."


BLM NEVER RECOMMENDED THOSE AREAS AS WILDERNESS!

THOSE AREAS SHOULD NEVER BEEN DESIGNATED IN THE FIRST PLACE!

THEY NEED TO BE REPEALED NOW TO ALLOW FOR USMC TRAINING THERE!

But if they "train for everyone to fight on the ground" like he said, then a big question is why aren't they training side by side with the Army up at Irwin? And with the USAF over at Nellis near Las Vegas?

We do currently operate in joint forces training. I don't have the whole low down on Irwin's expansion but it's kinda the same situation as ours, through put. We have Soldiers and Sailors that come to our base to train as well. The DOD doesn't currently have the same policy for units that train away from home sites, the Marine Corps has to pay other services for using their training areas but they don't pay us for using ours. Us being the smallest of the big 4 services we don't get the same funding.


There really needs to be harder look in the Eis at training together with the other military branches. Obama wants to cut defense spending so here's a excellent opportunity. Move Marine training to Irwin and work with the Army.
Marine pilots should train with the airmen at Nellis AFB. Every branch doesnt need there own million acres of land (or big chuncks of airspace) to play war games with themselves.

I defnitely support the military and want these guys to get the best training. They just seem real wasteful and different branches dont want to play with each other like the base PAO said.

Am I missing something? The more I read the more confused I get.

The air space piece is really to coincide with the land expansion. If it was only air space then it wouldn't affect recreation on the ground. There is a lot of stuff that goes into the purpose & need for the expansion that doesn't make it feasable to use other installations. We have Army and Navy units come from up that way because they can't get into their TA's. The same kind of overcrowding we are having in our OHV areas is the kind of thing we are experiencing within our installation boundaries is the best way I can describe it. Still, if we can get the right of ways through the wilderness areas to the east I think that is great stuff that can really work.

I went to the ontario meeting for socalrc rock crawlers and self. some of our other members made it to the victorville meeting. i just printed 300 comment forms to pass out in johnson valley over the next few weeks to recreational riders. here is my comment from ontario on wed at rdc


"i made it to ontario as well. i asked questions and filled out my comment card, and checked in with tony from gen right.

i asked the marine about the tortoise relocate during the solar project, they admitted to relocating 300 tortoise, and 90 of them died. they said they did it at the wrong time of year and the coyotes killed them. i asked them about mine access due to the mines being part of calif history, they had no answer, i asked about the cal 200 memorial access, they had no answer. i asked about what 10 months of the year we get access, they had no answer. they handed me a brochure and scooted me towards the comment box."

Thanks for spreading the word. When I went out last week someone had made copies of the post card and put them on Bessemer Mine Road's BLM sign. Wish I could have talked to you about the other things. Depending on the alternative, access to the mines would either be lost or the 10 months permited access. The time frame for permited access would be as such: 1 month in the spring and 1 month in the fall the RPAA's would be closed for our exercises and that would effect the RPAA's for Alt's 4, 5, & 6. As far as JV is concerned Alt's 4 & 5 are exactly the same and as you know 6 looks worse. NONE of the lines drawn on the map are solid yet and the public's input is being taken on all of the DEIS. I don't think anyone knew that a "Military Right Of Way" could be an option in the wilderness areas. The right of ways would not achieve the highest levels of training but would make Alt 3 much more appealing.

Anybody who has questions please let me know what I can do to help.

On another note I have some MVP's I want to mention. The first would be to Tony and the GenRight crew for being the one company to come to all three meetings.

The second would be Harry and Helen from CORVA who also came to all three meetings and helped a lot of people put in some really good comments.

And an Honorable Mention for Dave, the Hammer King for making all three meetings as well and to Larry and Cheri (Poison Spyder) for coming out to Copper Mountain. If I missed anyone I'm sorry.

Thanks again folks, keep reading through the DEIS and giving us more to look at and go on. Comment soon and often with as much good info as you can. We don't know what we don't know so we have to get smart on this stuff and all the Land Use issues that face us.

Mike

I don't think anyone knew that a "Military Right Of Way" could be an option in the wilderness areas. The right of ways would not achieve the highest levels of training but would make Alt 3 much more appealing.

Mike,

Prefered alternate should still be total REPEAL of those wildernesses BLM never recommended in the first place. Back in 1982they recommended: "The largest area dropped was Sheephole/ Cadiz (WSA 305) which had been impacted by World War II military maneuvers and lacked wilderness qualities." Just how did those areas end up in the final law? At least study that option of REPEAL and present all facts and findings to the public (and Congress).

Also, that 1994 wilderness law you pointed out allowed for military "nonwilderness corridor" in Cleghorn wilderness so you need to see how Sheephorn and Cadiz areas could possibly be used with similar training corridors. Think outside boxes. Sheephole is 175,000 acres so you guys could just propose 3 corridors through there (only for USMC use twice/year) and still have 4 big blocks of wilderness left for huggers to hike, hunt, horsie around in. PLEASE study this new alternate. Maybe that way congress could also save face and not have to admit making a mistake by designating those wildernesses in the first place in 1994.

Congress made those big boxes on the map. Please study and propose just making them into smaller boxes with a few USMC training corridors through them that would only be used a few weeks each year.

Also the Draft Eis studied alternate two (just the east half of Johnson Valley). BUT why didn't you also study an alternate that is just the north half? Leave 100,000 acres of southern JV open year round for recreation. That makes so much more sense to me. I didn't get a good answer at the meetings. It was something about needing terrain for unit separation and to shield the fire and space for maneuver width.

But the green arrows on your Eis maps don't even show the Marines using that land corridor from Emerson west to the red dot final MEB objective. I understand the arrows are "notional" but you should still study an option for less land in JV. Why can't you just deploy that third southern batalion to the north of Hammers and two mines there (Los Padre and Blue Ribbon)? I'm not convinced you need any of the dual-use land in your prefered alternate 6. The Draft Eis doesnt explain why clearly. With more creativity and outside box thinking, the Marines need to study a whole new alternate that would only expand into about 70-80,000 acres at most of JV (north half).

By the way, I do want to thank you and really appreciate you being on this board and providing us with some feedback and answers to our questions.

Could not make the meetings, but letter was sent.

My comments focused on 3 points.
1. JV is a unique recreation area – FOR MILITARY MEMBERS! This is why I wanted to be stationed in California. Off Road recreation is a great stress reliever for those of us who have completed multiple combat deployments.
2. Joint Military training areas. I don’t think the DEIS adequately addressed why other areas can’t be used (Ft. Irwin, NAWS China Lake, multiple places in Nevada).
3. Range Clearance. If JV is used as a live fire area, the cost and liability to declare it 100% safe for public use will not allow it to be re-pened for public use. During our lifetime.

Another thing I recommend is everyone to write directly to your Congressperson and Senator with your thoughts on this. Congress will decide on this at the end, but if enough people let their congressional representative know what you think, it could stack the vote for us.

To find your Congressperson:

https://writerep.house.gov/writerep/welcome.shtml

To find your Senator:

http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm

2nd letter sent:

To whom it may concern:

I am a strong advocate of responsible off-highway vehicle recreation. I am also a strong proponent of the brave men and women who fight for our freedom at home and abroad.

I feel like the proposal to expand the 29 Palms training area into the Johnson Valley OHV area is needlessly putting two of my biggest passions at odds with each other. I love being free, and I am grateful to the Marines (and other services) who keep my family speaking American English and saluting the American flag. One of those freedoms is outdoor recreation.

The Johnson Valley OHV area is THE premier off-highway vehicle recreation area for motorcycles, mountain bikes, trials bikes, desert racing, rockcrawling, ATV's, UTV's, and sand rails. There is no place in the country where I can meet friends from across our great nation and go play legally and ethically quite like Johnson Valley. JV's trails, scenery, and entire ecology is perfect for responsible OHV use. We have frequently been shut out of other recreation areas by the environmentalist movement. We'd hate to be shut out of our favorite area by our friends the Marines.

We support you.
Please support us.
There is room to the east of 29 Palms. I will gladly support a proposal to expand there.

Best regards,
Shawn xxx
Kalispell, MT

here is one of the letters I sent:

FREEDOM. It is what America was founded on. No one knows that better than the brave men and women in the armed forces. I have always supported the military for their service and always will.

In the proposed land acquisition for the 29 Palms Marine base FREEDOM is what is at stake. Over the past 50 years I have witnessed the peoples freedom slowly be taken away. What used to be vast open lands for Americans to recreate on have slowly been taken away and closed to the public. The vast majority of land that has been close is due to wilderness designation or to protect an endangered plant or animal . Now the very people that fight for our freedom want to take some of our freedom away.

I understand and support the need for our Marines to expand their training area to adapt to the changing needs of their training exercises, however what I do not understand is why must they propose to take an area in Johnson Valley that thousands of families enjoy each year when there are alternative areas to the east that will not encroach on those peoples freedom to recreate.

Not only will alternative 6 take away the publics freedom but it will substantially harm the economy of the surrounding areas. Those thousands of families that travel to Johnson Valley stimulate the economy of those areas in the form of supplies, gas, parts, food and snacks. Not only do they support surrounding businesses but also businesses near where the live. People travel to Johnson Valley from as far away as Delaware to participate in off road races held in Johnson Valley. So alternative 6 will negatively affect economies on the east coast.

In America, our government works on compromise for things to get accomplished. Republicans have to compromise with Democrats. The Senate compromises with the House. We as out door recreation enthusiasts, have been compromising constantly as our access to public land gets smaller and smaller. I urge the Marines to compromise as well and expand toward the east of their base.

This was pointed out to meon another board:

1. Re: Do you care if we lose Lucerne? 29 Palms expansion meetings THIS WEEK!!!!
letter i received:

Thank you for writing to me to express your concern about the Marine Corps' efforts to acquire land within the Johnson Valley Off-Highway Vehicle (OHV) Area. I appreciate hearing from you and welcome the opportunity to respond.

As you know, Marine Corps officials have been studying the potential expansion of the Air Ground Combat Center at Twentynine Palms to accommodate Marine Corps training requirements. Land considered for acquisition includes portions of the Johnson Valley OHV Area. Last year, I met with Marine Corps representatives to discuss this issue. As the result of these meetings, the Marine Corps committed to studying an alternative acquisition plan that would allow for a portion of Johnson Valley to be used exclusively for military training, a portion exclusively for continued OHV recreation and a third area for dual use. While the environmental review process must still be completed, I hope that the result will be an outcome that is workable for the Marines and provides benefits to the recreational users of Johnson Valley.

You may also be interested to know that on December 21, 2009, I introduced the "California Desert Protection Act of 2010" (S. 2921), which would: set aside new land in the Mojave Desert for conservation; enhance recreational opportunities; and streamline the federal permitting process to advance renewable energy development on suitable lands. Specifically, this bill would designate five existing OHV areas in the Mojave Desert as permanent OHV areas. Collectively, these areas could cover as much as 314,000 acres, depending on whether any portion of the Johnson Valley OHV Area is ultimately needed by the Marines. The bill also requires the Secretary of the Interior to conduct a study to determine which, if any, lands adjacent to these recreation areas would be suitable for addition. This provision is intended to help make up for some of the lost acres in Johnson Valley should the Marines decide to expand there. A detailed bill summary and map can be found online at http://feinstein.senate.gov (search keywords: "California Desert Protection Act 2010").

Please know that I appreciate hearing your support for maintaining OHV recreation in Johnson Valley and will keep your thoughts in mind should additional legislation to address OHV recreation areas come before the Senate.

Again, thank you for writing. If you have further questions or comments, please contact my office in Washington, D.C. at (202) 224-3841. Best regards.

This was posted to www.race-dezert.com on April 13th by username gotteracing. A letter he received from Sen. Feinstein in response to his complaint to her about the LAS.

http://www.race-dezert.com/forum/showthread.php/93104-Do-you-care-if-we-lose-Lucerne-29-Palms-expansion-meetings-THIS-WEEK!!!!/page4

Haven't really been able to read into the bill but seems interesting. Still not a promising alternative with respect to Johnson Valley though.

Mike

P.S.
Here's some video pertaining to the Public Meetings last week from our Public Affairs crew:
YouTube - Combat Center Gets Feedback on Expansion Plan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksrK9kHQBJg)