Article In January issue of Four Wheeler (page 62) comes down hard on Jeepers Jamboree and Extreme wheelers. Seemed like they wanted to name names but bit there tong.

Definitely wont renew that subscription.

I didn't renew with them myself. They've gone south as far as I'm conserned.

Bud

they suck. :p

So for those of us who wont buy it, whats it say? :flipoff2:

1 Got on the PB
2 Started learnin
3 Do not buy mags any more

Summary...quit wasting your dime on the mags, unless it's TTC time...

I think the paragraph you're referring to is:


The Rubicon Trail is, in short, a paradise. Or maybe it's a paradise lost. And the Jeepers Jamboree is a dream trip. Or maybe it's a nightmare. It's hard to know because these days,the trail is a troubled one, having become a focal point between at least three groups-- traditional wheelers, outlaw wheelers, and, naturally, the environmental community. Add into that mix the U.S. Forest Service and various law-enforcement agencies -- the latter with their work cut out for them. It's on this trip that competing visions of how this trail should be used can bubble to the surface.


the article is titled Gold on the Rubicon - we survive the 50th anniversary of the Jeeper's Jamboree , by Jon Thompson....

you can tell fourwheeler what you think of this months mag
here (http://www.fourwheeler.com/index.jsp)





:usa:

Also in Jon Thompson's editorial on pg.8 he qoutes Mark Smith.
"What's happening is that wheelers - he calls them vandals -
have built their rigs to the point where the old Rubicon, the one I
remember, no longer is tough enough for them. So they lever rocks
down onto the trailto make it more difficult.

Just read the editorial this morning.
Quote "seems like overbuilding a rig is seen as, among other things, perhaps an antidote to poor driving skills"

Jon Thompson

Originally posted by Air Bag
Just read the editorial this morning.
Quote "seems like overbuilding a rig is seen as, among other things, perhaps an antidote to poor driving skills"

Jon Thompson

This from a magazine that monthly has articles on big lifts, rockwell and Dana 60 xles, the latest in lockers etc??? WTF??

Stuff like this is why I quit reading the print mags almost 3 years ago. Loads of misinformation, OLD news (their lead time is several months), and just plain boring. Stick with the web mags like this place and ORC.:D

...And that old dude whining about the "outlaw 'wheelers" who lever huge rocks into the trail.... Umm... yeah. The trail hasn't been paved (by rock stackers/cobblestone pavers) officially in what, 75 years?

Guys who live near there--tell me about how mobile big rocks become in 12 feet of snow. Oh, wait, don't bother... I already know. Remind him. What about the cracks in bigger rock slabs that over decades collect ice and break chunks off?

If memory serves, the trail was only ever "paved" from Tahoe to the Springs, wasn't it? I'm not old enough to remember firsthand, just trying to recall what I've read.

Oh, wait... the drive to the grocery store is boring, I've done it a hundred times. Maybe I should put some skill back into driving to the grocery store by doing it with two flat tires. That'll make it more interesting. Once I master driving to the grocery store on two flats, I'll do it on four flats, then really push it and take a wheel off completely, and cruise over there on the rotor.

Y'know, while I'm at it, having recovery equipment lets me get away with being less skilled of a driver, 'cause I don't have to worry so much about getting stuck. I think I'll leave my recovery gear home too, and really test my skills the next time I'm on the trail. Friends along with me to help out, allows me to rely too heavily on other peoples' skills--I shouldn't be doing that, so I'll go alone while I'm at it.

Some days I'm glad my ad budget isn't big enough for the magazines.

Excuse me, but I do remember in the Old Sluice some stories of people using dynamite to break off large chunks of rock and dump them in.

Now, that stories did have the proper government agencies involved and it was bandit work.

I think maybe its time you don't write them, you call their editor for slander.

Originally posted by Scott@Rockstomper
...Some days I'm glad my ad budget isn't big enough for the magazines.

LOL Scott.... no question I am about positive these days that the people that write/publish the magazines actually never read them. If they do I would sure like some explanantions for many things I have seen in these magazines.

NoRM
who should keep his mouth shut on the subject of wheeling rags

Originally posted by P|n-BaLL
no question I am about positive these days that the people that write/publish the magazines actually never read them. If they do I would sure like some explanantions for many things I have seen in these magazines.

i am convinced they don't read their own mag.....i wrote them(and got my letter published) concerning their choice for four wheeler of the(2002) year.

they picked the dodge ram:rolleyes: . i questioned them because it took the junker 196 feet to stop from 60 mph.the next worst was 150 feet....in my book the thing shoulda been dq'ed and a note to warn their readers of an unsafe vehicle:eek: .

but nooooo the dumb basturds give it fourwheeler of the friggin' year:confused: .

I read that article yesterday. He didn't seem to have anything good to say about the Trail.:mad:
I like this quote " Also causing a lot of severe damage are the extreme machines,and vehicles that are too wide for the trail,such as Hummers,that hook onto boulders and roll them down into the trail."
I seem to remember their magazine taking a fullsize Chevy truck through the Con in the late 80's. Bet Hummer is gonna love that remark about their rigs too. Very sad.

I find fourwheeler a waste of paper, and waste of most people's time. I never subscribed to that mag, but the few that I bought at the newsstand, I felt like my money was wasted. I bought the last one, with the dodge 6x6 on the cover, only because there was an article on the company I work for :D. My favorite mag is 4wd and Sport Utility, followed closely by JP.
Scott
EDIT: Sorry, Im under StacEy's name :D

RANT MODE ON:

I hate this SHIT!!!!!

I hear this ALL THE TIME from wheelers who are not into extreme trails and it is such a load of crap. "Take away your lockers, drivetrain mods, axles, beadlocks, and tires and THEN see if you think are our 'easy' trail is easy!". What a FAWKING joke!!!! Don't these morons ever clue in that building the rig is at least HALF the fun?? These people never seem to clue in that if you take away the mods, for many of us you're taking away the freaking sport!!!! I hate that line of reasoning. I call these people 'wrench lightly', because they have the same soapbox standing, justify your own inadequacy, exclusion while preaching inclusion, hypoctical, illogical, blind mentality that tread lightly people do.

This line of reasoning also completely takes away the value of conquering a difficult trail. Yeah sure, it is probably just as difficult to drive a fawking sprint down a fireroad as it is a rock buggy down the 'con, but then one of us drove down a fireroad, and one of us drove down the 'con, didn't we? Do you think we would all remember Sir Edmund Hillary's name if he climbed Strawberry Hill, because without the use of air equipment, poles, ropes, and sherpas, well, it's just about the same as climbing Everest, you know. :rolleyes:

What a load of complete and utter BS. These people have no sense of adventure whatsoever, IMHO.

RANT MODE OFF.

Chad

I guess they want to wheel the box in a 2wd stude!

http://www.pirate4x4.com/scrap/retro!/rubicon_littlesluice.jpg

ChadLoyd allow me to play devils advocate a min and respond.

I hear this ALL THE TIME from wheelers who are not into extreme trails and it is such a load of crap. "Take away your lockers, drivetrain mods, axles, beadlocks, and tires and THEN see if you think are our 'easy' trail is easy!" What a FAWKING joke!!!!

But probably accurate to a point...42's and a tube buggy seem to be rather bored on trails that seriously challenge Flat fenders on 33's true? So one could even go as far as to say that becauses of this people in built extream rigs look down their noses at lesser built rigs? * Do I need to go trolling for quotes on this very BB?*
And equally, people in less built rigs look at extream rigs with utter disgust often? * again I can show examples from this BB*
We all have the same exact right to be on the trails and enjoying this past time last I knew...so why exactly the adversity? Useing the Rubicon as an example.....last I knew it was a public trail....that means ANYONE that follows the rules should be welcome there by us all......regardless of rigs status.


Don't these morons ever clue in that building the rig is at least HALF the fun?? These people never seem to clue in that if you take away the mods, for many of us you're taking away the freaking sport!!!!

This is your opinion and I am sure shared by many, I personally enjoy the building of the rig just like I enjoy driving it...but then again I don't feel this is sport...sure we have competiton and bragging rights but those excist even amoung the 31" tire open diff crowds as well...I think wheeling is a hobby and far from a sport...RC competitions.....THAT'S a sport. Close the land you loose the "hobby" you can still build the truck...long as it's a free country anyway. You just won't have any public place to use it.

I call these people 'wrench lightly', because they have the same soapbox standing, justify your own inadequacy, exclusion while preaching inclusion, hypoctical, illogical, blind mentality that tread lightly people do.

I could take that statement to mean you feel lesser built rigs are inadequate...and the Tread Lightly concept is foolish. Course that is just the way I read it...I am sure you didn't mean it that way.

This line of reasoning also completely takes away the value of conquering a difficult trail. Yeah sure, it is probably just as difficult to drive a fawking sprint down a fireroad as it is a rock buggy down the 'con, but then one of us drove down a fireroad, and one of us drove down the 'con, didn't we?

I would think the value of conquring a trail is in the eye of the individule that has risen to a challenge and achieved his goal. Not on what others think...I doubt Sir Edmund Hillary climbed that pile of rock to impress others. And I am sure Ole Hillary himself would consider his achievment somewhat lesser than what it is if sum dude with nothing but a walking stick managed the same Mt Eh? *Not that thats going to happen obviously* I personally would be prouder I drove the Conn in a open diff equipped MB than a tube frame buggy.........if one was to narrow this hobby down to achievements...me personally again, I don't see the Rubicon as a huge achievement..that doesns't mean I don't like it. What it is, what it stands for, and what it offers makes it one of the nations greatest and certainly most famous trails...and I would hang there any chance I got and enjoy it. No matter what I was driving.

What a load of complete and utter BS. These people have no sense of adventure whatsoever, IMHO

And I suspect in their opinion it is you that has no sense of adventure.....after all who would find it fun to drive a rig so well built it doesn't require skill to operate where they play....

All the above said......I didn't like the article either........it's just more proof that the people in this hobby are sperating from the realization we all want the same thing *open trails* and longer we are divided......the more they take from us..... if the magazines are going to take a position..... it should be one of accuracy and fact...........not opinions of a few.

NoRM

I read that artical. I was thinking that he just shit on everyone that has been in TTC. TTC is the only cool thing about that mag.

I'm not sure how in depth I am going to get in my letter but so far I have made two letters:

-------------------------------------------
1st attempt:
-------------------------------------------

Your magazine sucks. Please fuck off and send me a refund of my unused subscription..

Fuck you very much,
PSD


-----------------------------------------
2nd attempt:
-------------------------------

I have been a loyal subscriber and reader of your magazine since 1994. I have never seen you slander an bash the fourwheeling community so wrongly, as you have done in the January 2003 issue. You portray the less than .01% of "renegade" 4 wheelers to be the norm. I can't believe how biased you are in this issue. You take everything said by Mr. Smith, someone who made a business out of commercializing public land, to be fact. Let me just say I have no problem with the Jeepers Jamboree, though personally I will never join one because I go to the Rubicon to enjoy myself and get away from the traffic and people.

Congratulations, you have now just given the evvironmental extremists more ammunition to close the trail. You have publicisized negative, self serving, slanderous, comments and opinions from a very well know person in the four wheel drive community. I garuntee that once the Anti-Recreationists see this article, they will use it against us.

In closing I would like to thank you for making the three 1000 mile trips I've made in the last year to the rubicon to help rebuild the trail seem less than worthless. I would also like to thank you for making the 1000's of VOLUNTEER man hours that groups such as the Pirates of the Rubicon 4WDC, FOTR, the Lake Tahoe Hi-Lo's 4WDC, and all the individual users spend working on the trail seem to be in vain. The Jan. 2003 issue is a kick in the nuts to everyone that has ever enjoyed the Rubicon Trail, as well as the ENTIRE Multiple use Community that has worked so hard to keep it open.

Please consider this letter a request for termination of my subscription, and a request for a refund of the unused portion of my subscription.

Sincerely,
PSD

-----------------------------------


I'm kinda partial to the first attempt :D




:usa:

Originally posted by Old Scout
I guess they want to wheel the box in a 2wd stude!

http://www.pirate4x4.com/scrap/retro!/rubicon_littlesluice.jpg

Does anyone have a recent pic of the Sluice from about the place this one was taken??

yeah, but your second letter tells them why they suck. the first is too easy to say "well, not everybody can like us".

Originally posted by JohnnyJ
yeah, but your second letter tells them why they suck. the first is too easy to say "well, not everybody can like us".

I agree. If you're not going to use your second attempt, I'd like to. But I think your second attempt is much more appropriate to send to Four Wheeler with cc's going to the board members of Primedia.

Incidentally, this isn't the first I've seen of Four Wheeler's leanings towards destroying the very industry that they claim to support... I seem to recall (maybe my memory's hashed?) some similar rantings a couple months ago from the same folks. This is the worst I've ever seen in print, though.

Maybe I'm missing the other chunk of the story... Four Wheeler, 4WOR, both, recently, have been reporting on the "outlaw aspect" of the sport, bragging up their own lawlessness, wildly fingerpointing at "vandals"... someting's up here. There were never reports on the crazy stuff that went on at the 'con (or anywhere else) in the magazines in the '80's or '90's.
So what's going on?
(a) We as a group really are a lawless bunch of drunken vandals
(b) The magazine folks have other interests in mind than promoting four wheeling--maybe those interests include destroying it
(c) They can't find anything else to report on
(d) This is a newly-developed phenomenon, brought on by the recent discovery of beer in the Sierras

Maybe I'm just paranoid. Primedia sure does own a lot of "greener" magazines too... I guess it's pretty easy to get paranoid. Is it still considered paranoia if they really *are* out to get you?

If they interviewed me, and I ranted about the vandals stacking rocks in the Sluice and dragging the big rocks out of the Sluice so that "stocker" vehicles could get through without winching or breaking, d'ya think the interview would get printed? What about if it was somebody bigger-name in the sport, like, say, Walker Evans? Having owned a Jeep since 1948 doesn't make you an expert four-wheeler, a spokesman, or the like--neither does having 'wheeled the same trail for fifty years. How many rocks has a guy who's been 'wheeling the same trail for 50 years stacked along the way? Is this the same guy who wanted the Sluice blasted totally clear of rocks so that it'd be passable by 2WD Studes again?

Pete, I prefer your 1st letter to Four Wheeler,but think you should send em the 2nd letter. Very well written.

Scott - no, not paranoid. At least I don't think so - then again - I can't help analyze thinks tactically..

IF higher powers at Primedia have subversive goals in the agenda - this would be a classic, and extremely effective "divide and conquer" tactic.

But that's probably not the case ....I suspect it's more likely a hopelessly naive and misguided attempt at business strategy....the "extreme rigs" he complains are causing damage are not there market share. Mags survive on advertising - which for the most part is targeted as the decidedly less extreme "bolt on" crowd. Heck - even most of their articles are nothing more than 2 or 3 page adds with little to no real decent tech. I find most sound much more like they were written by an ad copy man rather than a knowledgeable four wheeler. Heck - they can't even get the difference between different types of tubing straight.

If you're reading this Mr. Thompson, you should be ashamed!

Not all the magazines are scared of built rigs driven by crazy outlaws on gnarly trails just out to have fun. Some of them think they are pretty darned cool, and they realize that they are their readers. Not all the magazines want to compete with the internet. Some of them think the internet is an awsome resource and community and realize that in an endagered sport community is needed. Some of them work 15 hours a day trying to be as informative and entertaining as possible, and when it comes right down to it some of them appreciate the reviews they get. If you have a problem or comment send it in, I would bet they would listen.

Originally posted by Live Wire
...vehicles that are too wide for the trail,such as Hummers,that hook onto boulders and roll them down into the trAIL... ...Bet Hummer is gonna love that remark about their rigs too. Very sad.
KINDA GONNA PLAY THE DEVIL ADVOCATE HERE WITH PINBALL....

I HAVENT READ THE ARTICLE, SO I DONT KNOW EXACTLY WHAT IT SAYS, BUT I TAKE IT ITS A SHITTY ARTICLE. BUT, IF THEY WANNA BASH HUMMERS, THEY CAN. EVERYONE'S SO CAUGHT UP IN BEING POLITICALLY CORRECT THAT ITS DISCUSTING. UH-OH, SOME ONE MIGHT GET THEIR FEELINGS HURT! :rolleyes: NO ONE'S WORRIED ABOUT BASHIN' THE TREE HUGGERS THOUGH.....

MY .02

MATT :skull:

Originally posted by 85TrailToy


Does anyone have a recent pic of the Sluice from about the place this one was taken??

this might be close...

Originally posted by 85TrailToy


Does anyone have a recent pic of the Sluice from about the place this one was taken??

i think this is looking back down at the cobblestone area the studes were on....

then

now :D

for those of you who thought that I was really considering the first letter :flipoff2:


Scott, I am planning on sending my letter in the next few days. I will print it out and sign it in ink and send it "return receipt requested" to make sure they get it. I will also mail it to all the board members as well, good suggestion.

I just want to tweak it and get into a little more detail on some of the things...I just threw those together while I was waiting for a buddy to pick me up for lunch....

As always, you guys can use my letter as a template - BUT I would appreciate it if you let me send mine in and get the certified reciept FIRST, then you can all "tweak" it to make it more personal for yourselves.....

Thanks,
PSD


:usa:

we make our vehicles bigger and better to broaden horizons.. look at baja racing.. with out better vehicles there wouldn't be such high speeds, such big air, etc etc

Originally posted by TDW
now :D

Damn, them pavers sure have grown over the years!:flipoff2:

Originally posted by landuseorc
Stuff like this is why I quit reading the print mags almost 3 years ago. Loads of misinformation, OLD news (their lead time is several months), and just plain boring. Stick with the web mags like this place ...............

I agree. I let all all of my subscriptions expire. At least here you can jump in and call B.S.!

I totally agree with Chad here.......perhaps I have the unique perspective of understanding EXACTLY what he meant.

Maybe it's an east coast - west coast thing, but I think it's more of a northeast vs. the rest of the country thing.....all I can say is, we here in the northeast building rigs and doing harder trails are the minority. We have to constantly listen to the dumbass Yankee mindset of "why do that?" with the constant echo of comments similar to Jon Thompson's.

Personally I come here to get a break from all that.

Originally posted by BillaVista
Scott - no, not paranoid. At least I don't think so - then again - I can't help analyze thinks tactically..

IF higher powers at Primedia have subversive goals in the agenda - this would be a classic, and extremely effective "divide and conquer" tactic.

But that's probably not the case ....I suspect it's more likely a hopelessly naive and misguided attempt at business strategy....the "extreme rigs" he complains are causing damage are not there market share. Mags survive on advertising - which for the most part is targeted as the decidedly less extreme "bolt on" crowd. Heck - even most of their articles are nothing more than 2 or 3 page adds with little to no real decent tech. I find most sound much more like they were written by an ad copy man rather than a knowledgeable four wheeler. Heck - they can't even get the difference between different types of tubing straight.

If you're reading this Mr. Thompson, you should be ashamed!






This is pretty much right on. They own the market on 4wheelin print. They cater to seperate types of wheelin. Petersens has the tube buggy while 4wheeler has the mud trucks still. Not sure if it's all the same company anymore casue I only subscribe to SU&off road. It was just an attempt to connect with thier target audience. JAke

Another point about mag. editors is that they don't have rigs that keep up with what's going on today. For the most part, they drive out-dated junk and are probably insecure about it. They are theatened. Here they are supposedly the voice of current trends, but they have fallen way behind with their own stuff.
Business is business though and overbuilt rigs and their owners don't need stuff from advertisers in FOUR WHEELER so the mag. does not need to cater to us.
I'm not bashing low buck rigs, believe me I was there a long time.

That was my first impression of the article "Acquire or Achieve?"

YellowSub, you have a gift for letter writing, guy.

Another point about mag. editors is that they don't have rigs that keep up with what's going on today. For the most part, they drive out-dated junk and are probably insecure about it.

That's the longest way I've ever seen of spelling "Ned Bacon":D

(I know he's prob not an editor per-se...but allow me the satire if you will)

Originally posted by YellowSub1962

I'm kinda partial to the first attempt :D
:usa:


I am too. But that second one is well written and agree with it all.
I would be interested to see if they do send a refund. I don't know about you, but I suspect that they won't. Let us know.

I quit with mag subscriptions years ago. I read it all online on places like this board 3-6 months before it hits the shelves. I do however buy from the news stand whenever I see something in an issue of a mag that catches my eye.
After all, it is hard to read the POR board when sitting on the shitter!

Dean

I just got my FOUR WHEELER in the mail. I was insulted at the opening article as well as the one about the con. I am going to cancel my subscription asap. The only mag I will keep reading is 4WD&SU.

Just want to clarify that my earlier comments were made a) in anger, having just read the editorial, and b) in reaction to the editorial, not the article.

I guess one of the things that bugs me most in the world is Hypocrisy. Many of you touched on the rampant example that this is - railing against 'over modification', when damn near EVERY SINGLE ISSUE has pasted all over the cover a vehicle which is a glaring example of what they themselves are trying to crucify in their editorial.

If they really think it's so bad, then should stop using extreme rigs in their photos, rig writeups, stop covering rock crawling events, etc etc - let's see how many mags they sell THEN.

The biggest hypocrisy is one we are probably all familiar with: " I love and support all types of four wheeling ......... as long as you don't over modify". What bugs me most about that is that it is always the hard core wheelers who are painted as the extremists, as the elitists, and the enviro damaging nazi, when in fact most hard core guys:

do not begrudge any normal wheeler his love for his sport/hobby in the way he chooses to practise it

do not begrudge the space dedicated to his practise of his sport/hobby

do not accuse him of destroying the environment, despite the fact that they do far more damage as a group than hard core wheelers

in fact most hard core guys are happy that these people are able to find the enjoyment that they do, and try to build a community with them.

Why can THEY not extend to US the same courtesy?

Then on top of that, WE get painted as the extremist, elistist, etc etc.

H Y P O C R I T!!!!

This is 'glass ceiling' type of subtle discrimination, made all the more outrageous by the fact that the people who are practising it claim to be, and probably believe themselves to be, against this very type of discrimination. Obviously I'm exagerating, but THAT is what pisses me off about it.

Just my opinion.

Chad

Originally posted by Live Wire

I like this quote " Also causing a lot of severe damage are the extreme machines,and vehicles that are too wide for the trail,such as Hummers,that hook onto boulders and roll them down into the trail."


Talk about hypocrisy. We were camped at Buck Island last July when the media run for the H2 came through the trail. The group consisted of 6 H2s and 3 H1s. (I have pics to prove this)

It is funny to read them bashing such big rigs like that when I shook the hand of an editor of more than one magazine and a very well known off road racer that day. ;)

I visited the Rubicon for the first time this past Labor day and I surprised to find the Little Sluice as bad as it was. It wreaks of the smell of gear oil. I have been in repair shops that smelled better. I saw puddles of gear oil, oily dirt in the bottom and stains all around on the rocks.

I'm about as right wing as they come, but come on people. Is it that hard to scoop out the puddle in the dirt and haul it out or shoot a little Berry on your spot. That place is so heavily traveled, those who decide to try it should be reminded to clean up their mess by the gallery. As much $hit as they can dish out, I can see that happening. IMO the Rubicon regulars need to police the trouble makers a little better.

Anyone for a recall campaign to oust Grey Davis?

Over building? For who, and for what trail? What could be considered mild on parts of the Hammers could be outrageous on the 'Con, and vice versa. When you have to build a rig to survive one trail, do you have to "de-tune" or build another rig for a different trail, just to keep people like Thompson happy?

Originally posted by BillaVista


That's the longest way I've ever seen of spelling "Ned Bacon":D

(I know he's prob not an editor per-se...but allow me the satire if you will)


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

:laughing:


That,



Was perfect!!!!!

I didn’t read the article, but from the sounds of it, they have a point. I know a lot of you care about the ‘con. That’s why there is a clean up effort every year.

I have only been wheeling on the Rubicon for 6 years, but in that time things have changed A LOT.

My Rig has not changed much in these 6 years. I have the same set of tires, and my lift has not sagged very much in the 9, 000 miles since I bought it.

The first few times I went through I got no damage except a little dent from poor traction and bad driving.

Fast forward 4 years and I'm dragging on way more rocks.

Fast forward 2 more years and I am bolting steel to my rockers because the holes are getting so deep that I'm nailing my rockers.

The trail is MUCH wider than it was 6 years ago and that is a direct result of the full-width 6060606060 craze.

The trail is getting worn and the magazine editor is probably sad to see it.

The box is a mess.
Every time I'm there, I see at least one person upside down with oil, gas, and radiator poring out. 3-4 quarts every weekend during the try season on the same 400 square feet for one year is about 25 gallons of oil a year. That’s not good.

I love watching the hardcore wheeler, but do you think some of you have out grown the Rubicon? When did rolling become cool? It’s like the back-flip for the Freestyle MX guys. “If you don’t roll you’re not hardcore” That is the image the magazine editors are seeing.

I think a new TOTW on the Jeep page may be “how to clean up your mess after you roll”

or you could just jump over to the fourwheeler message board <cough> here (http://www.fourwheeler.com/bbs/viewmessages.jsp?tid=121634) </cough> and let them know what you think

What should we expect next, an exposure piece on a valued Mid-west trail, or one of the few East Coast trails still in existence? Maybe FourWheeler has a plan to target a valued wheeling challenge route every three months? Remember the October issue when they targeted Surprise Canyon (for an example for false claims of "wheeler abuse")?

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=79619

The editors never did respond to my letters (in private, or public). I imagine this continued practice is an example of "responsible journalism"?

How does the actual usage compare to the claims of abuse? Do the "extreme wheelers" truly tear up the terrain more (or less) that the less modified? More or less for a small section of the trail, and more or less for the entire length of the trail?

When was the last time the presence of mankind (or a number of his machines) was expected to leave zero lasting trace of passage? What is acceptable level of impact consistent with the legally allowed passage of vehicles on the Rubicon (or any other legal trail)? Why does the author fail to address standards of acceptable impact, rather than target "modifications"?

Why does the author of these articles seem to desire a management ethic for these motorized routes that parallels conduct expected of a hiking trail in designated Wilderness?

You have to ask these questions, because if you leave the larger questions unasked the media will use your silence as a vote of support for this attitude of ignorance with respect to why motorized trails are managed differently than Wilderness trails.

Yes, Can you imagine Primedia Managers pleasantly reading this attention a misleading article attracts, and planning more similar articles and editorials, simply for the expected add revenue growth? Can we expect them to exploit the unethical side (illegitimate radical vandals) of the off-road recreation community to sell more advertisements? Should YOU allow them to exploit this image? Should we be exploited the same juvenile way renegade skateboarders and cyclists are promoted, just to gain Primedia more revenue?

The leadership of Primedia listens to two important indicators of strength: advertisement revenue and reader subscriptions. If you want to get these folks to be ethical you have to send them a message that will threaten them: cancel advertisements and subscriptions. A few reader subscriptions will not send the message, but a few thousand will (including advertisers that publicly take their business elsewhere). You have to remind the media now and then that they grow business by serving the public, not by misleading (or slandering) the public.

Happy Trails!

Originally posted by mudpup
or you could just jump over to the fourwheeler message board <cough> here (http://www.fourwheeler.com/bbs/viewmessages.jsp?tid=121634) </cough> and let them know what you think

It is @ssh0le$ like you with attitudes like your own that are causing the problem. We all have a responsibility here. If you are going to wheel and play in these areas, is it so damn hard to be respectful, and clean up your shizznit. Every year it seems like there are more punk kids who didn't get slapped around enough by their parents trashing areas and being rude and offensive to others. You do not have a right to destroy public property. Our ability to play in these areas is a priviledge, and one that I want to keep for myself, my friends and my children, but if we keep raising morons like yourself the government spearheaded by environmental lobbies will take that priveledge away from us. It is happening at a ever more frequent rate. Maybe you are too young to care, but do you not want these opportunities for your children?

People there are going to be more and more articles written like the one in 4 wheeler, until we start policing ourselves better. Clean up after yourself, and others. Report dumb@sses to the authorites, and be respectful of those around you. If I see you driving drunk, being a jerk, or trashing the trails I love I will report your sorry @ss to the proper autorities, and will not feel the least bit bad about doing it.

/Rantoff

Originally posted by jeepboyben

If I see you driving drunk, being a jerk, or trashing the trails I love I will report your sorry @ss to the proper autorities, and will not feel the least bit bad about doing it.

/Rantoff

I wasn't going to get into this but...

I've heard reports from friends that do a yearly pilgrimage to the con'. They are fun loving, and never too prudish when it comes to the campfire scene, but they hit the con' this year during the annual clean-up.

They mentioned that the level of drunkin' rowdiness in the sluice was higher than they had seen in years...And that it seemed more like a roll-fest rather than a organized clean-up. His comment was "The slab looked like a war-zone the next day". Now I calmly explained the nature of the clean-up and that there is some fun to be had while selflessly removing hundreds of pounds of trash deposited over the year...Didn't matter.

The point is the perception of those who don't subscribe to this list, or are plugged into those who truly love and take care of the resource, can be permanently (or long-term) marred by the exploits of others (obviously).

My take on the mag. article was that it wasn't so much about the extreme rigs wreaking havoc over mother earth, but more of a voice that is echoing across major events all across the country. That is the general disregard of others, drunkenness, and rude behavior we are seeing more and more of on our trails and at major events. Take this years' EJS. A friend of mine (Matt Peterson) was there and he stated that it was probably the last EJS he attends. Keg's, couches and "show me your tits!" was the gist of potato salad hill...It was more of a spring break for red-necks than a Jeep Safari. Granted Potato Salad is the #1 party spot in Moab, but this was at a whole new level with an estimated 10k worth of people hanging, drinking, driving and generally using a mob mentality.

Unfortunately the more popular our sport becomes, the more we will see this type of behavior. Wheeling seems like it's becoming one of the last bastions where a guy can unwind a little without fear of being arrested, or persecuted for being him/her self. Unfortunately others, less in-tune with moral and ethical treatment of the environment and others, are becoming more and more prevalent. It's up to us to help rectify, and maybe turn around, this GENERAL perception that is obviously prevalent enough to warrant 4 pages in a national mag…This article wasn't about the Con' per'se…It was a statement in general.

This perception change starts at home for all of us.

--D

sounds like i need to hit up EJS. :D

Say it's the first time you've been wheeling on the con. You come around the bend to the box and see a line of rigs waiting and one guy trying to drive through witha bud in his hand waiting to roll, what would you think. You'd think this guy is a dumbass. Drinking while trying to navigate the hardest part on the con?!?! Come awn. You can't sit there and tell yourself everything is ok up there when you know it's not. WE've all heard the stories and have seen the sites ourselves. Is it really a surprise that something like this was written or purely the fact that the truth was told.

I do agree that the people mentioned are the minority but those are the people who ALWAYS get noticed when something gets messed up. Perception carries the weight not the truth.

Now I love this trail like the rest of you. I have never been anywhere that I feel a need to go back to. the scenery, the crystal blue water, the fresh air. We are the majority and we do need to police ourselves and take responsibility or we won't have this place much longer.

my $.02

Originally posted by HighToy
Say it's the first time you've been wheeling on the con. You come around the bend to the box and see a line of rigs waiting and one guy trying to drive through witha bud in his hand waiting to roll, what would you think.
my $.02

i would think i found utopia. :D

as many times as i have been to the box i have yet to see somebody run it holding a beer.

I agree that a vast majority of the problems are caused by the younger crowd. NOT the hardcore, extreme, full width 60s guys. These are the guys that see what's happening and are trying to keep our trails open. There was a prime example of punk kids at a local 4x4 show this past weekend. 3 teenage kids brought there so called rock buggys (That were no more than daddy's money thrown away) on a goose neck trailer with a brand spanking new power stroke for a tow rig. Now tell me how a 17 year kid can afford all that? There biggest goal at the show was to see who could do the most donuts and burn the most rubber off their new 42's. O and see who had the loudist motor. Needed less to say the orgianizers of the show took them aside told them what they were doing was wrong. The building and parking lot were opened up for the show free of charge and that they needed to stop. All three kids told them to F off and they could do what ever they wanted. the kids were then told to load there junk up and get out before the cops were called. Its kids like this that give the rest of the sport a bad name. Not the true hardcore guys. The true hardcore guys have spent countless hours and dollars trying to build their rig to its fullest potential. And by reading boards like this one they have come to understand that our hobby is in grave danger and therefore have done something about it. Like do trail clean ups working with the forest service and BLM to keep the trails open.

I personally go to Moab ever year for the Safari. And if the rumors are true that MTV may do coverage of the Safari It will be the last year that I go. I have also heard rumor of changing the week for the safari so it doesn't overlap with springbreak.

thats my $.02

Originally posted by jeepboyben


It is @ssh0le$ like you with attitudes like your own that are causing the problem.

WOW, you sure do know alot about me because I post a simple link :flipoff:

Believe it or not, they respond to e-mail.

I sent this e-mail to Fourwheeler’s editor:

I received my issue of Fourwheeler in the mail this week. Normally it is one of my bright spots of the month to carry the magazine in, sit down in my chair, skim through quickly, and then go back and read every little detail.
However, something caught my interest very early on with this issue. It seems that by page 8 Jon Thompson was bashing fellow fourwheelers, and the group of wheelers he bashed just happens to be the one that I fit in.
Believe it or not, some people enjoy building their rigs bigger and better almost as much as they enjoy wheeling them. According to Jon, I suppose we should all be wheeling 31" tire, open diffed, 4 cylinder vehicles, if not you are (according to Mark Smith who uses public land for personal gain) a "vandal".
Thank you Fourwheeler for furthering the cause of the nice folks who would like to close access to public lands to four wheel drive vehicles.
Well, then I finally get to page 63 and read your expose' on the bad behaviors of the wheelers you encountered. Nice. You are portraying the entire wheeling community as a bunch of drunken, pot smoking, outlaws, with no respect for the land.
Thank you again for aiding those nice people who do not want four wheel drive vehicles on public land.
AND
Thank you for aiding my decision in NOT renewing my description to your magazine.

I received this response

Thompson didn't say that 'wheelers shouldn't build their rigs. He merely cautioned against overbuilding them, and suggested that it might be profitable to focus on driving skills instead of spending skills. Additionally, were the 'wheelers on the 50th anniversary Jeepers' Jamboree, as you put it, "drunken, pot-smoking outlaws with no respect for the land?" No, not all of them. But as you've pointed out, some did behave incredibly irresponsibly. We're not about to look the other way while idiots are carrying on. It might be more reasonable for you to direct your ire over this issue toward those who truly jeopardize, through their bad behavior, our ability to four-wheel on public lands, instead of those of us who observe bad behavior and report on it. Or would you really prefer that we at Four Wheeler not report what we see, and instead, tell our readers only what we think they want to hear?


Here is my reply:

I expect you to report fairly. You raised ONLY the negative aspects of wheelers in both the editorial, and the article. When is the last time you covered one of the MANY clean up runs on the same trail (Rubicon). Report both sides please. Your magazine is doing the wheeling community no favors. And just what exactly is "overbuilding". I would maintain that an underbuilt rig does more damage to a given trail than an "overbuilt" rig.
I suppose I could just build an F250 Superduty sitting on 40's, bolt on alot of chrome, and get some cool graphics painted on the side and drive up and down the highway like most of the rigs you feature, but I actually enjoy wheeling and I hate to see a magazine titled "FourWheeler" start bashing the wheeling community.

Originally posted by 1TonCJ-7



After all, it is hard to read the POR board when sitting on the shitter!

Dean

and then i discovered a laptop and wireless internet... now i can shit and cyber-wheel.

Hayraker,

Great letter, and even better response to his lame reply (obviously not Thompson, just some lame lacky without the guts to sign it)

Ed....extremely well put as usual :)

mudpup...looks like you have become a victim of the "divide and conquer" I mentioned.

Originally posted by BillaVista

mudpup...looks like you have become a victim of the "divide and conquer" I mentioned.

I am just curious why I get called out like that for posting a link :confused:

I am just curious why I get called out like that for posting a link

Dude, I have no idea??? I assumed it was some personal thing - that you already new each other? I dunno...crack maybe?

Originally posted by BillaVista


Dude, I have no idea??? I assumed it was some personal thing - that you already new each other? I dunno...crack maybe?

Never met the guy before to my knowledge...guess I'll assume crack as well :D

Originally posted by camo
sounds like i need to hit up EJS. :D

right behind you

I am sure sometime somewhere a member of green piece spilled some oil in the water and probably a member of the sierra club has run over a bush or two, but you a sure not going to read about it in one of there publications. They're a little smarter then that.

I would be willing to bet that Jon Thompson didn't say a word to any of these "vandals" we was so unfortunate to wheel with, about how they should change there behavior.

If you don't want crowds don't go to big events.

sorry, just some random rants

Originally posted by camo


i would think i found utopia. :D

as many times as i have been to the box i have yet to see somebody run it holding a beer.


Oh and I did do the box holding a C- once. Had to set it on a rock when I rolled though, but I picked it up after the crowd flipped me back over. Didn't spill a drop:D . Sorry you weren't there to see it Camo. :flipoff2: :D

Originally posted by Hayraker
Believe it or not, they respond to e-mail.

<snip>

And btw, I signed my email with my name, I notice that you did not.
Ronny Alsup
"vandal"

Good Job, with the letter & reply.

I also wondered if they wandered over to coach against practicing the bad behavior (or chose to join-in)?

I don't know if the closing comment was intended for me, but my sig is my name -- and they failed to reply (to direct requests and message board requests). Maybe your topic was easier to defend (to redirect, as they missed the mark)?

Happy Trails!

Originally posted by Air Bag
I am sure sometime somewhere a member of green piece spilled some oil in the water and probably a member of the sierra club has run over a bush or two, but you a sure not going to read about it in one of there publications. They're a little smarter then that.

I would be willing to bet that Jon Thompson didn't say a word to any of these "vandals" we was so unfortunate to wheel with, about how they should change there behavior.

If you don't want crowds don't go to big events.

sorry, just some random rants

good points, i'll bet its happened, in fact most tree hugging hippies drive shitty old stink boxes that pollute more than wheelers vehicles (okay, really bad categorising) but i agree with the above, those groups are far more careful!!

I don't know if the closing comment was intended for me

I think Hayraker ment the lacky that replied on behalf of Thompson, not you Ed.

Maybe your topic was easier to defend

I can just picture the poor sob reading your letter, Ed, and his head exploding ! I think there's little chance of them being capable of entering into intelligend debate with you, I'm afraid.

in fact most tree hugging hippies drive shitty old stink boxes that pollute more than wheelers vehicles

Ha - I've seen that here - some delapidated old bus covered in peace signs and "save the earth" slogans, puking and belching smoke everywhere and dripping oil and coolant all over the place....pathetic.

Originally posted by Ed A. Stevens


Good Job, with the letter & reply.

I also wondered if they wandered over to coach against practicing the bad behavior (or chose to join-in)?

I don't know if the closing comment was intended for me, but my sig is my name -- and they failed to reply (to direct requests and message board requests). Maybe your topic was easier to defend (to redirect, as they missed the mark)?

Happy Trails!


Ed, nothing directed at you, all of my post was cut and pasted from the e-mail that I sent Fourwheeler over the weekend, their reply, and my response. The closing comment was directed to the annonomous person who sent the reply from Fourwheeler.

Ha - I've seen that here - some delapidated old bus covered in peace signs and "save the earth" slogans, puking and belching smoke everywhere and dripping oil and coolant all over the place....pathetic.


uhhh...Bill....bus.....VW......coolant......Aircoo led......

;)


:flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Originally posted by ChadLloyd
I guess one of the things that bugs me most in the world is Hypocrisy. Many of you touched on the rampant example that this is - railing against 'over modification', when damn near EVERY SINGLE ISSUE has pasted all over the cover a vehicle which is a glaring example of what they themselves are trying to crucify in their editorial.



This is what gets me. That very same issue has the cover article of big axle roundup :rolleyes:

MudPup,

Sorry I singled you out. I really shouldn't have, you really gave me no reason too. :emb2: I'm just getting sick and tired of the young punks and jerks in our community thinking they can do whatever they want, and do not have to take any responsibility for their actions. The point is if we continue to disrespect the people around us, and destroy the trails we all use they will get shut down. You, myself and everyone else here have a responsibility to act respectfully to others around us and the environment we play in. If you do not want to act like an adult buy 40 acres of land in the middle of no where and act like a tool on your own property.

Ben

To me there are 2 issues:

1) The "don't over modify" hypocrisy in the editorial.

2) The "extreme guys are destroying the trail" story about the 50th anniversary of the Rubicon Trail.

The first issue is the kind of glass ceiling discrimination that really bugs me personally.

However, I think it is important to seperate it from the second issue, because I don't think there is a man among us who would condone the purposeful destruction of a trail by anyone, rather that be a hiker, average wheeler, or extreme wheeler. Having not seen the Rubicon (please some day!), I can't comment from personal experience, but what I'm hearing is that even the most extreme of you are to some extent lamenting the fact that there does seem to be a new, young, less respectful crowd which seems to be invading this place and causing damage and problems due to their general drunkiness and rowdiness. I am not saying that this is true, I'm simply saying that is the way it appears, and wondering if you guys can confirm that?

If this is true, then it is doubly troubling that a magazine which makes its living off the back of the extreme wheelers would lump those drunken rowdies in with what we would consider 'extreme wheelers'. In other words, just because you wheel an extreme machine, doesn't mean that you are the one participating in the acts he is attributing to causing the destruction of the trail. In fact, I would say, based on the evidence of the amount of volunteer time you guys put in, that the exact opposite is true.

If one day I should happily find myself travelling this trail and I saw such behaviour, I would not think to myself 'Oh man, look at those extreme wheelers destroying the trail', I would think 'Oh man, look at those rowdies destroying the trail for us extreme wheelers'. It is the lumping in of extreme wheelers with this rowdier element that bugs me about the rubicon article, and four wheeler, which is making its living off of the portrayal of itself as an extreme wheeler's publication, should be extremely ashamed of itself for portraying its supposed members in such an unflattering, and especially UNFAIR, light.

This years EJS was my first. Probably my last. I don't know. We left on Thursday to head to Vernal. On Thursday there were more idiots than I could count.

You could however tell the "old school" from the "crazies". Unfortunately, the "old schools" were highly out numbered. It's funny that Rock Rover mentioned Matt Peterson. He is a vendor who makes money there, and he doesn't want to go back.

If I would go again, I would probably leave before Thursday. I take my family on these trips, and I get real tired of my son pointing out "idiots".

I read the four wheeler article, and I must say that they made some valid points. Are they hypocritical, well they have other departments and article writers, and they are supported by advertising.

j

I just don't see why they feel the need to give the enviro-nazis this kind of an article to use against us?? What purpose does it serve other than leading to more trail closings?? I'd like to hear how in the fuck they think any good is going to come of this article. If the author has anythin against hardcore wheelin, that is fine, but don't publish an article like that!!!

It really is a shame that things have come to this. When "we" (public land users, not just wheelers) start pointing fingers at each other in public (big national magazine, one that is supposed to be dedicated to our past time no less).....is starts to show through that either we need to remove some heads from some asses, or our "hobby" is gonna wind up as us building trucks only to be trailered to private property under the cloak of darkness...

Its been several years now since I last ran the 'con....and the box does look much different now.....harder....I can't say, but certainly different.
So far as the drunken mob cheering on drunken "extreme" wheelers to wreck their junk.....this would also piss me off, though I prolly wouldn't do anything about it other than mentioning that they sure damned well better clean up after themselves.

and for 'ol Jon Thompson, and his old public land exploiting buddy....they can kiss my metaphorical ass....my letter to Jon is already on the way, and I'm certainly not holding my breath for the refund I requested on my remaining subscription.

I just think everyone needs to remember.....if such a small majority can cause such bad press, then we need to be doing our best EVERY TIME we're on the trail to eliminate that bad press, and try and create some good impressions at the same time.

Originally posted by ChadLloyd
To me there are 2 issues:

1) The "don't over modify" hypocrisy in the editorial.

2) The "extreme guys are destroying the trail" story about the 50th anniversary of the Rubicon Trail.





I didnt take it as "extreme guys are destroying the trail". I read it as "dumbasses who do not appreciate the Rubicon are destroying the trail".

so how did those rocks grow in those years between TDW's pics?

Just to clarify -- not disagreeing with anyone, or calling anyone out.

...what I'm hearing is that ... there does seem to be a new, young, less respectful crowd which seems to be invading this place and causing damage and problems due to their general drunkiness and rowdiness.
I agree with the perception, but I'll qualify that generalizing this behavior to age is just as silly as generalizing this behavior to 'extreme' vehicles. I know some young fellas that have been brought up in 'wheeling families that sure don't fit that stereotype. Generalizing who the problem is advances our cause little -- we need to get involved anytime we see damage being done and talk to the individuals, regardless of how old they are, what they drive, what magazines/websites they read.

...In other words, just because you wheel an extreme machine, doesn't mean that you are the one participating in the acts he is attributing to causing the destruction of the trail. In fact, I would say, based on the evidence of the amount of volunteer time you guys put in, that the exact opposite is true.
Again, two separate things. Stewardship of the trail on cleanups does not necessarily correlate to year-round responsibility. If we see someone doing something stupid, we need to walk up and start a conversation with them and try to help change the behavior, regardless of whether they attend a cleanup or affiliate with a club that does. Every weekend in October but one found me up on Rubicon for FOTR work efforts, but that doesn't buy me a free pass to trash the trail.

If one day I should happily find myself travelling this trail and I saw such behaviour, I would not think to myself 'Oh man, look at those extreme wheelers destroying the trail', I would think 'Oh man, look at those rowdies destroying the trail for us extreme wheelers'.
Exactly right. Don't let individual behavior define the group. Anyone who does is over-generalizing, at best, and at worst, adding to the ammunition that the anti-access advocates may use to close the public off their public lands.

Randii

eb88;

YOU and I see it that way, absolutely! But some other readers of the article could very easily mistake it for the way I put it, and THAT is one of the things that has everyone upset.

randii;

You're right, generalizations do not help. However, I simply meant that this is what I can pick up from this very thread - I certainly am not implying that this WAS the case..... I guess what I'm trying to find out is:

exactly how much of a real problem IS this behaviour on the trail? Obviously I have no way of finding out for myself, living quite far away. The article seems to give one extreme point of view. I'm interested in a more rational, even handed description of what is actually going on, from people I hope can be a little less biased.

I do see plenty of evidence that there is a big movement towards stewardship of the trail. I also notice a 'general' (again, generalizing, but what can we do) increase in the complaints about a) the shear number of people on these trails, and b) the behaviour of some of these people.

I'm wondering what people who are dedicated wheelers think is the cause of this, if indeed they are a problem - ie: is it simply a case of overloading of the trail, or ????

uhhh...Bill....bus.....VW......coolant......Aircoo led......

No no no, not a VW...an ACTUAL bus...some kind of old schoolbus or something :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

Oh.....of course......

Ken Kesey gettin' it in the 'box???

that musta been who 'ol Jon saw huh!!!!

:flipoff2: :flipoff2:

well... Every point he made is true...I think he just bought a ton more attention to the rubicon that it already had.....if your on the trail a few times a summer you have had the same experience...fireworks on the 4th ect... I have seen so many people get drivin on or runn into on the con its not even funny ... He is right in what he is saying...I was there on the 4th when one of the big boulders got pushed in..so dont be ignorant saying mother nature has placed them all there, its not true ... I wish he would have mentioned the cleanup at the end of the year....:( The Con gets bad press from bad people...get rid of the bad people and the problem is solved...just shoot um and burry them with your turds! JK...

Mike-

What is the difference between rolling rocks onto the trail to make it harder or rolling rocks onto the trail to make it easier?
In my book none. Its just that mark smith likes one and not the other.

I think the real issue is that we don't need to air our own dirt laundry in our own magazine.

What is the difference between rolling rocks onto the trail to make it harder or rolling rocks onto the trail to make it easier?
Come on!!
Rolling rocks to make the trail harder alienates many, allowing access to only a few, and rolling rocks to make the trail easier makes it easier for everyone. Not that I agree with rolling rock for any reason except for absolute necessity, but come on. The little sluice is much different now than it was in 99. We had stock jeeps go through in 99 and this year no one made it through without half the crowd holding them down with straps. This boulder growing phenomenon was not caused by bad weather!

I first ran the con in July 99 and from what I saw, it's amazing that the trail is still open at all.
We went just after the Jamboree and man were we in for a big surprise.
In my little camp spot alone I gathered 3 large trash bags of trash and hauled off 2 bags that were left by previous campers. I must have collected at least 2 cases worth of beer cans from within the trees and surrounding area. There were buckets full of sh|t here and there and hundreds if not thousands of turd piles everywhere we went.
We collected trash for the full length of the trail and the amount was staggering.

Then to top it off, when I reached the staging area near Tahoe, some scumbag MF’er had put all his or her trash in the bed of my truck.

Don’t get mad at the article for pointing out the obvious. Unless you have your head planted firmly up your butt every time you traverse the con, it is easy to see the continuous destruction of a once great trail and it will make you sick.

I have personally seen 2 distinct point of views while talking to others on the con. I think they represent the two major schools of thought and they go like this:

1st guy says in astonishment:
Wow the con sure is getting tore up?

2nd guy Replies with a smirk:
Isn't that a good thing?

Which one would you folks subscribe to?

This year the trash was somewhat less but we also went before the jamboree for obvious reasons. I still managed to gather 2 large bags of trash and you still don’t want to walk out through the trees at night or you will have sh|t up to your ankles.

Been wheelin the Rubicon for over 10 years. Not gray haired and not a whipper snapper either. But, In this case, being a local to the Rubicon and sensing where history has taken us and where I suspect we are going...I do have some comments.

The rigs are better...mine included. The trail is used way more and thus more cosmetic damage to it has occurred. But, at the current rate many of the locals can feel it in the air...

a gate with permit use only to control volume...Something like a wilderness permit.

The county and forrest service will likely start listening to the tree huggers if the rate of increased traffic continues. Not sure that can be denied.

Do I agree with this. I must admit, I see things that shock me...but then again...I have done things that shock me. For me it all comes down to this...Are we really doing permanent/long term/or significant environmental damage to the trail. My answer...hell no. If we all stopped wheelin this trail for 2-3 years, it would recover entirely. I look at the world from an evolution perspective. 2-3 years is nothing. The fact is what we do out there is way less damaging than what any modern city does. Oil dripping from cars does go somewhere you know. Not to mention smog...solvents...paint...insecticides...etc.

Having said that...It is damn nice to run another trail in the area of the Rubicon...to remain nameless...ends at a lake...that is nearly prestine and damn beautiful to run. So, is keeping the Rubicon pretty the goal or to keep damage at a minimum. Both should be, but at this rate, I am not sure pretty i.e...staying between the lines...is likely. In the end...

People...just don't be Jackasses...and we will have a trail for our children. Know this though...at the current rate of increased traffic...get ready to be first in line for a permit.

I think that the second letter should be turned into some kind of on line petition, showing the mass dissaproval with the article.....

I am pleased to read the critical need to separate reports of illegal behavior, from being reported along with alleged "damaging" impacts on the environment (acceptable and unacceptable).

Anyone who wants to report on illegal behavior has a right to demand enforcement, just be aware of the risk of combining (opinionated) complaint of undesired behavior in the same paragraph (or even article). Non-enthusiast readers of motorized recreation activities do not understand the distinction between the illegal, and the merely unattractive impacts of our sport (what some enthusiasts may claim is unacceptable, from their point of view). Be careful to separate what you wish for when asking for change, and when reporting on problems.

The Rubicon is a legal vehicle travel route, and as a legal route some impacts must be recognized as acceptable (non-excessive vehicle fluid loss, rock moving, limited route widening, rollovers, and even bypass route construction). These impacts, and the activities that increase the risk of these impacts occurring, must be separated from the rants about illegal activity (my opinion). If we fail to demand separation and isolation of what is illegal, from actions that are merely annoying (to some), then we risk having each activity eliminated (and do we really want an unfocused zeal for enforcement risk a result of closure, even on a permit basis)?

I authored a disguised thread on the chitchat forum to question this same issue, and it appears we are (nearly) all saints and alter-boys. Posters acknowledge the risk to our trails is the uneducated (and not necessarily the extreme rigs, or the drinkers). I gather the same message, although from a different prospective on each thread. We cannot hide from participating in the discussion, because ignoring it will allow others to determine the direction of our sport (and I believe the greens are willing to step in and direct their vision of legal wheeling if we fail).

The task to draw the line and determine what is unacceptable (enforced as illegal, or identified as minimal housekeeping and toilet expectations) compared to what is simply annoying for some (demanding cooperative education) is at hand. Do we direct the outcome and participate in developing and communicating the message. Maybe planting a "standards of conduct" message at each entry to the trail is needed, or do we sit back and let someone else plant a closure sign (or a "tours by permit concession only " sign).

The overall message of the damning articles may be misguided (they are poorly edited in my opinion), although the need to identify what must be publicly communicated as intolerable behavior is a valid wake up call to a growing sport.

Happy Trails!

Our club ran the Rubicon shortly after the Jeeper's Jamboree. We had a blast. A couple of us ran the Little Sluice without too much damage - I broke a front spring hanger half off, but it held up through the rest of the trail. We saw hardly any trash or "land mines". We pretty much had the trail to ourselves, since we went in Sunday and came out on Tuesday night.
I agree with Ed that there's a big difference between the idiotic behavior on the trail and behavior that results in environmental damage. There's two problems with the idiotic behavior though - one, it truly represents a public relations problem for 4 wheeling and two, it does impact other 4 wheelers on the trail in one way or another.
My take on the article was that they were trying to get the message out to 4 wheelers that we need to recognize the impact our behavior has on our continued access to these areas.
Legitimate or not, the environmental wackos will use our behavior and any other means necessary to lock us out from the areas we love to play in. Like it or not, videos and accounts of some of the behavior I have seen in my years of wheeling can be pretty persuasive if shared with the vast majority of the American public, who have no idea what off roading is really all about. That public opinion can and has been used against us.
A perfect example are the news accounts over the last couple of years of the "pervasive lawlessness" over the holiday weekends at Glamis that showed up in several of our Southern California newspapers and local news programs. It's kind of hard to argue thet "it's only a minority" when the evening news shows images over and over of motorcycle riders jumping their bikes through a circle of flames and riding around firing a semi-automatic rifle into the air. You and I might be able to view in the overall context of the situation, but your average yuppie family watching it on the news doesn't see it that way. And THOSE are the people whose opinions will dictate many of the political decisions made in Sacramento and Washington.

There's two problems with the idiotic behavior though - one, it truly represents a public relations problem for 4 wheeling and two, it does impact other 4 wheelers on the trail in one way or another.
...and thus should not be glorified.

My take on the article was that they were trying to get the message out to 4 wheelers that we need to recognize the impact our behavior has on our continued access to these areas.
Wish they would have written better to that topic instead of marginalizing aspects of our hobby and providing such easy ammunition to the anti-access activists.

Randii

Originally posted by randii
There's two problems with the idiotic behavior though - one, it truly represents a public relations problem for 4 wheeling and two, it does impact other 4 wheelers on the trail in one way or another.
...and thus should not be glorified.

My take on the article was that they were trying to get the message out to 4 wheelers that we need to recognize the impact our behavior has on our continued access to these areas.
Wish they would have written better to that topic instead of marginalizing aspects of our hobby and providing such easy ammunition to the anti-access activists.

Randii
Good points, and ones that I will use when I send my letter to them.

The letter -
Dear Jon Thompson,

I feel compelled to write after reading the article "Gold On The Rubicon" in the January issue. I'm hoping that it was written in the spirit of addressing a problem with the intent to find a solution, although it doesn't read that way.
Your article points out everything that's bad about the conduct of the people using the trail, but offers nothing in the way of suggestions as to what could be done to help the situation. In doing so you have written an article that will surely be recommended reading for anti-access groups across the country. With the exception of one sentence where you point out that your article should not be taken as a reflection of most of the participants of the Jeepers Jamboree (which will certainly be overlooked by anyone with a bias against motorized recreation), one would assume that the vast majority of four wheelers are alcoholic, pot-smoking, rednecks with no regard for the well being of the environment.
Your magazine reaches thousands of four wheelers every month. One would hope that you would use this forum to disseminate information to this audience about the very real threat to off roading posed by the radical environmental extremists that want all forms of motorized recreation eliminated from public (and in some cases, even private) lands. You could have pointed out the problems that exist on this and other trails, clarified that the behavior represents a minority of the off road community, explained the consequences to our continued access if this conduct continues and offered suggestions to rectify the situation. Instead, you wrote an article that appears to condemn off roaders as a whole and provides ammunition to those that would lock us out of our favorite places to play. May I suggest that in the future you devote more space to the access issues that affect us as a group and in ways to help us maintain and enhance our recreational opportunities, and less space on articles bashing the four wheel drive community.
By the way, I can tell you that a group of us ran the Rubicon the week after the Jeepers Jamboree. Since we came in on a Sunday and left on Tuesday, we had the trail pretty much to ourselves. There was virtually no trash or "land mines" to be seen. As far as the difficulty of the Little Sluice, I have a '92 Wrangler with a spring over lift, locked Dana 44 axles front and rear and 35" tires (certainly not overbuilt). The other member of our group that ran the box drives a CJ-7 with a Black Diamond coil conversion, locked front and rear with 35's as well. We each ran the box in about 15 minutes, with no damage save for a couple of scrapes. Big Sluice was fun, but not overly difficult, even for those in the group running a 4" lift and 33's. When I come back to run the 'Con again, it will be more to experience the beauty and relaxation the trail provides, and less for the challenge. When I want a challenge, I'll run the Hammers.

Sincerely,
Chris Witham
Thousand Oaks, CA

Great letter AMC

I was there on the 4th when one of the big boulders got pushed in..so dont be ignorant saying mother nature has placed them all there, its not true There is a bypass....

I was "there" on the 4th, 2001. Different day, Wednesday, middle of the week, different year. I walked in about a mile from Loon, with my son, 6 years old. Scouting the Rubicon before running it. "how the fawk am I gonna get my Amigo up this ?" We saw two Toys and two Jeeps, in about 4 hours. Quite a difference a few days on the calender can make. No crowds, no geeks, no idiots. No trash either. Amazing considering an estimated 35,000 person/days accrued each year (Del Albright). Crowds can bring out the worst in people. Other than the national exposure, take the article for what it is worth, "Journalism." The Sluice seems to be the focal point of wierdness and extremism, so don't go there on a busy weekend expecting a wilderness experience................. 1/2 mile away and you can camp by yourself.:D

send them a picture of your favorite 4wheeler reading place...on the shitter! .....but i agree this really is a kick in the teeth by the very people who pay thier bills. i will be sending in my .02cents about the rag .i think they could of at least done a 2 part issue....
like a very small part of young wheelers trying to ruin or favorite past time .... and done another on the last big cleanup the con had!to show what they are tring to do counteract the few bad seeds.

I won't have time to mail it till Thurs morning, so I'm open for comments till then :) Its to the Pres and CEO of Primedia consumer media group, the COO of the Prim. consumer med group, the Chairman and CEO of Primedia INC, and the pres and director of Prim INC...




Dear Sirs:
David G. Ferm, Daniel E. Aks, Tom Rogers, & Charles G. McCurdy

I would like to start off by saying that I was completely caught off guard by your January 2003 Issue. From the “Limited Articulation” editorial by Jon Thompson, I realized that Jon’s opinion of four wheeling was very different than that of myself. I favor modifying my vehicle to make it more capable of traversing various sorts of terrain with minimal impacts on the environment. From his editorial, as well as his comments and biased, one-sided comments in his “Gold on the Rubicon” story, I get the impression that Jon feels everyone should drive stock vehicles with 31” tires. (It is a well know fact that a modified vehicle, when driven properly, has significantly less impact on the environment than a stock vehicle.) Coming from a magazine that prides itself on showing off HIGHLY modified vehicles, I find this extremely hypocritical.

I have been a loyal subscriber and reader of your magazine since 1994. I have never seen your magazine slander and bash its loyal readers so wrongly, as Jon has done in his article “Gold on the Rubicon” on pages 62-64. He does a great job portraying the less than .5% of "renegade" 4 wheelers and their more than likely illegal behavior to be the normal behavior of the four wheeling community. The vast majority of the four wheeling community, as you and Jon know but failed to include, are environmentally responsible. I’m curious as to whether Jon (or anyone else from your magazine) approached these people and asked them to refrain from their behavior, or reported their illegal activities to the local authorities, or even if he “clocked out” and joined in. Any responsible member of the four wheeling community would have done one or both of the first two options. Any Responsible Journalist would have clarified without a doubt that the activities of a few “renegades” did NOT represent the actions of the four wheeling community as a whole.

In the article, Jon takes everything said by Mr. Smith, someone who made a business out of commercializing public land, to be fact. (Let me just say I have no problem with the Jeepers Jamboree, though personally I will never join one because I go to the Rubicon to enjoy myself and get away from the traffic and people.) I do not personally agree with many things Mark Smith does, or his ideas. For example, my rig may seem “overbuilt” to Mr. Smith on the jamboree routes , but in Johnson Valley on any of the Hammer Trails my rig is very under built. So his matter of perspective is taken as fact to make the more highly modified rigs seem like they have no place on the Rubicon, a publicly recognized route of travel for all users. I feel Congratulations are in order, as with this issue you have now just given the environmental extremists more ammunition to close the trail. You have publicized negative, self serving, slanderous, comments and opinions from a very well know person in the four wheel drive community. I guarantee that once the Anti-Recreationists see this article, they will use it against us.

In closing I would like to thank your magazine for making the three 1000 mile trips I've made in the last year to the Rubicon to help rebuild the trail seem less than worthless. I would also like to thank you for making the 1000's of VOLUNTEER man hours that groups such as the Pirates of the Rubicon 4WDC, Friends Of The Rubicon (FOTR), the Lake Tahoe Hi-Lo's 4WDC, The County of Placer, The Lahonton Water District and all the individual users spent in the pass working on the trail seem to be in vain. The Jan. 2003 issue is a kick in the nuts to everyone that has ever enjoyed the Rubicon Trail, as well as the ENTIRE Multiple Use Community that has worked so hard to keep it open.

Please consider this letter a request for termination of my subscription and a request for a refund of the unused portions of my subscriptions to your magazine, as well as you sister publications of JP Magazine, and Petersons 4 Wheel and Off Road.

Sincerely,
A thoroughly disappointed former loyal reader,
Peter S. Di Primo



:usa:

very well written Sub.


(I especially like the way you included "kick in the nuts")

As for overbuilding rigs, I'm not touching that one.

As for Four Wheeler calling out those who are obnoxious, rude, drunk, loud and shit within sight of porta-potties (or out of site), I applaud them.

That's what I got out of the article, and I think it's about time we start policing our own. The Rubicon shouldn't be a rolling frat party - this WILL get it closed.

I say thanks FourWheeler for telling it like it is, I see similar shit in Moab all the time.

Originally posted by D60
As for overbuilding rigs, I'm not touching that one.

As for Four Wheeler calling out those who are obnoxious, rude, drunk, loud and shit within sight of porta-potties (or out of site), I applaud them.

That's what I got out of the article, and I think it's about time we start policing our own. The Rubicon shouldn't be a rolling frat party - this WILL get it closed.

I say thanks FourWheeler for telling it like it is, I see similar shit in Moab all the time.


I think your're missing the point here...they didn't call it like it is, they made it sound like this is the way that all four wheelers are...so you're ok with being lumped into the group you just pointed out?


:usa:

Originally posted by D60

I say thanks FourWheeler for telling it like it is, I see similar shit in Moab all the time.

And what do YOU do about it when you see it:confused:

Not sure if it was mentioned yet, but Offroad Magazine did their write up of the Jeep Jamboree. They said soemthing along the lines of "While some folks said the trail was more difficult this year we really thought it was about the same".

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwww, fuck 'em. Just fuck 'em.
:flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2: :flipoff2:

If it weren't for TTC that mag would be crap all together. every cover truck has at least 50k sunk into it. and most of that money has gone into the paint and lift. they show superduties with 44's and dana 50's with 3.73's. none of their cover trucks actually see the dirt. they have to force them to go into a 6" deep puddle to get a shot of them "wheeling". the sad part of it is, is that a lot of younger wheelers and people new to the sport think that is how you need to build a rig: drop 50 or 60 grand into paint and a chrome lift kit. thompson and his group of los angeles pavement wheelers don't know a good thing when they see one. ever heard of a budget??? these guys promote rigs that 95% of their readers can't afford. Jeep did an admirable thing in 2003 with the rubicon, they offerred specific to wheeling options. four wheeler should praise jeep for doing so in an effort to encourage other manufacterers to do so. if the rubicon wins the accolades then maybe dodge, ford and chevy will follow suit and offer better off road options. my favorite mag is petersons 4 wheel and off road simply because a couple of years back they outlawed show trucks. they don't cover them. i think its great. maybe some of you guys on this site with at least half a brain should start a mag and call it "no whiners" or "hardcore" or somethin. thats my 2 cents.

http://www.elimadden.com/images/pbb/respect.jpg

I wish people would learn to clean up after themseleves, cuz it's nice to have places to get away from it all, party it up and howl at the moon.

:beer: