Hello everyone,
I got an interesting call from the Eddie Franklin (Developer of Snowbird OHV) today wanting to put on a rally if you will from right here at Crawfords Campground and Cabin Rentals. This event is open to all 4x4 vehicles(No ATV/MC's or Rail buggies) and the fee is free to enter the Snowbird OHV park. The entrance will be off of Boiling Springs Rd.(Just about 6 miles from the Campground) where you will get a taste of what they have been building(50 acre rock crawling area as well as other trails. They are trying to increase memberships to this area and this is the best way to advertise. You see before you purchase. I am told there is no limit for this event, but there is a limit to parking at the entrance for vehicles that have to be trailered up. So, the best way is to have registered vehicles that you can drive right from camp.
A couple of interesting facts on us out here trying to survive is that I know serve All You can Eat Waffle breakfasts, we can refill your propane and most importantly we still have the rock garden. Please note that we do not have Gas in the tank, so bring your own.
Please let me know when you make a reservation if you intend on eating Sat night BBQ Dinner so I know how many to cook for as well.

PLEASE POST UP EVERYWHERE YOU CAN ABOUT THIS EVENT, THE MORE CHEROKEE COUNTY SEES THE MORE THEY WILL SEE THE VALUE IN BEING INVOLVED.
www.crawfords_campground@yahoo.com
828-837-9077

That's awesome Danny!!!

sorry i never got back to you via pm Danny - glad Eddie got a hold of you!

Here's some photo teasers of some of the rock areas there ... its a beautiful piece of property, and I can certainly see the potential!!


http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/208635_706416618738_46700804_36136846_6003661_n.jp g

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/207401_706416698578_46700804_36136847_517170_n.jpg

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/205518_706416963048_46700804_36136853_6803146_n.jp g

http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/208474_706416798378_46700804_36136849_8131170_n.jp g

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/208791_706417197578_46700804_36136863_5798513_n.jp g

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/208476_706416563848_46700804_36136845_5854255_n.jp g

I'm not sure we can make it being that weekend is Memorial day, but if plans change, we'll be up there to see ya!

I am planning to be there if nothing happens between now and then. I am trying to talk a couple of my buddies to go up with me. Hopefully we can get a big turn out.
Robbie

Im from Lenoir City and know the area pretty well. Is this place across the skyway or up through cocoka creek mountain a ways. Is this a new snowbird or is it part of the old snowbird that was at hoopers bald near little buffalo?? This is extremely interesting to me since I grew up ridin at tellico. Sorry for the spelling ha ha.
Thanks

Im from Lenoir City and know the area pretty well. Is this place across the skyway or up through cocoka creek mountain a ways. Is this a new snowbird or is it part of the old snowbird that was at hoopers bald near little buffalo?? This is extremely interesting to me since I grew up ridin at tellico. Sorry for the spelling ha ha.
Thanks

This area is known as Little Snowbird and is just to the NE of the old Tellico ORV area. It doesn't go up as high as Buffalo or the Hooper Bald. They plan on accessing it from the Boiling Springs road.

It had to be that weekend... we are racing that weekend near Auburn, AL in the next ECORS race. Man, I wish I could be there for this one. I'm sure you'll have a great turnout since it's free!!

It had to be that weekend... we are racing that weekend near Auburn, AL in the next ECORS race. Man, I wish I could be there for this one. I'm sure you'll have a great turnout since it's free!!

Ecors @ the GAP is April 30 ... Danny is planning this for May 29 ...

I'm in talks with Eddie to allow this to be a 2 day deal since we have a three day weekend. This is a great opportunity to see this new area as this may be your only shot. They intend for now to remain private and this is your sample. I'm not a member of all of the club forums out there so I'm counting on you guys!:D

welcome back Danny. I sure and the hell this works out for all.

doh, way to look like a dumbass! thanks darcy!


sorry for screwing up the thread danny... :shaking:

Good talking with you Danny, Im hoping to be up there with the jeep to show some support.

So what exactly is this place? By private is it just a place a guy and his buddies ride? Are they looking at a daily fee like gulches? Or is it a membership type deal? and if so how do you acquire a membership?

Right now they are wanting to expand their membership to 50(They are at 20+/-). The membership is $1000 per year and you can take upto 5 persons with you. You can look at all the details at www.snowbirdanglers.com. In the near future they are wanting to hold comps a couple times a year and maybe let Jeep Jamboree come out. This will give them time and money to build up the park over time.
I think it is important to let everyone see a large crowd at one time, so they can see what they are missing as well as to get the County involved. They are all about pumping tourism up in this area. A little late to dinner if you ask me, but at least with the new guys running the commission they are interested.

We should cross post this to the events folder but I'm a noob here so I'm skeerd to. There is a lot 'up in the air' re:details since the club is looking to expand & diversify. I am very optimistic since I wheeled a small portion a couple of weeks ago. VERY TELLICOISH ... obviously ... except Ranger Dick isn't there to harass us! Needless to say Danny, me & the gang 'll be there. Get that waffle iron ready I can eat about a dozen!

Everybody please post this link to your home forums.

Let's wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeel!

Does anyone have any more pics?? I've gotten requests from guys in other forums that I cross posted this. THanks

Does anyone have any more pics?? I've gotten requests from guys in other forums that I cross posted this. THanks

those were the only two obstacles we explored when we were there -- i have different trucks attempting, but thats about it ;)

I'm heading to blueridge ga. friday for 10 days
just in case i can get mine finished by then is it legal to be on the road in ga, & nc in a florida licensed jeep with no windsheild
tony

We really miss coming up here, and just need a reason. We're in! I'll call you tomorrow Danny.

:smokin:

I'm going to try like hell to get up there. I miss the Crawford's camp experience.

made a reservation for two with Lynn this morning -- count us in for dinner saturday :)

We should be there for the week.

Just wanted to let everyone know that Eddie Franklin of the Snowbird OHV area told me that since the weekend of this event is on an extended weekend that he is now going to allow entrance into the park Sat and Sun. So, now there is a full weekend available to make the trip worth while!
During my meeting last week, I brought up this event and everyone's ones ears perked up. Commissioner David Wood directed the News Paper to come out and do a story and stated how important it was to get this type of tourism back into this County. Let's make a big show folks!
I'm supposed to take a tour of the area next week and hopefully I can get some pics that will peak up the interest.

Just wanted to let everyone know that Eddie Franklin of the Snowbird OHV area told me that since the weekend of this event is on an extended weekend that he is now going to allow entrance into the park Sat and Sun. So, now there is a full weekend available to make the trip worth while!
During my meeting last week, I brought up this event and everyone's ones ears perked up. Commissioner David Wood directed the News Paper to come out and do a story and stated how important it was to get this type of tourism back into this County. Let's make a big show folks!
I'm supposed to take a tour of the area next week and hopefully I can get some pics that will peak up the interest.

looking forward to more pics

I know that this event is free. But after this it will cost $1000 to ride. Is that right?

I know that this event is free. But after this it will cost $1000 to ride. Is that right?

depending on how you interpret the rules it looks like it would be $1000 per year but you could bring 5 people with you, I'm assuming that is 5 non driving people?

From what I understand, U can have 5 driving friends but U, as the primary member must be on the property when Ur guests are visiting.

LET'S WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEL for free! And party at Crawford's!

Crawlrunner is correct. Membership holder can take 5 people and their vehicles too. A buddy of mine and myself signed up yesterday and are going to be doing ATV, Jeep and Dualsport tours. So, if anyone wants to put together a group let me know. A little more information about the place is that it is in the beginning stages of an off road park. The rock crawling section is going to be really cool once it is run in. That is some of the biggest reason for the invite to the crawler crowd. Eddie and Doug cut the basic trails in but need the crawlers to clear dirt and expose the rocks... and there is a lot of them. As far as the scenic and ATV trails, they are really good. They remind me of Tellico trail 4 but there are about 20 miles of it or better. It was hard to take pictures of everthing out there as I was too busy riding. I will try to attach some so everyone can get the basic concept.

so in effect you could get 5 people together and it would be $200 each to buy one membership? and as long as the one person is there your good?

Correct.

I rode thru the property in thru Marble NC & out thru Hangin Dog/Murphy NC yesterday. I'm w/Danny. I am currently bailing on regular events (+/-$200 for gas+tow rig wear n tear ea for me) to financially justify signin up.

Oh & I wouldn't try to skirt or abuse the rules w/these folks. They have a black list already ... seriously.

Oh & after 25 more members sign up, that's it.

That sucks. Too bad he's not offering a wheeling-only membership (no fishing/hunting).

Members have access to fishing,hunting and primitive camping except for a couple black out weeks that the owner has set for his own private vacation. I have talked to some of the folks that are interested in the membership that plan on leaving a camper here at my place and having a membership over there so they can enjoy the area anytime they want. We took a group of dual sport bikes over there this past weekend and they loved it! I think I am going to take my little man today to catch a trout or two for the frying pan for dinner tonight.
I believe that this area will be transitioned over to a pay as you go park over time, once all of the trails are developed and if all goes well. There is two guys working on the trails and if they can get some interested wheeling membership to help, things will go fast.
I'm having internet issues and can't get the photo's to upload to photobucket.

So anyone get any pics of the trails?

Here's a message from my friend Eddie Franklin that he asked me to post:
The Snowbird Club is 4000 acres, we will only be showing a small portion of the property that will be a 50 acre extreme rock crawling and a 2 hour trail ride to the Buzzard Roost and to the plane crash site. People that is serious about becoming a member will be invited backto see the rest of the property. It will be about 8 to 10 hour trip from Snowbird to the pay station on trail #6 at the TN state line.. Yes I said trail #6. All rigs must be 4X4 vehicles.. Snowbird Club will open Boiling Springs gate at 9:30am on the 28th & 29th of May for a Free Open invitation. If you plan to come or have a question please call Eddie at 828-389-4362 or Doug at 828-735-3284 or Crawford Campground. Hope to see you at Snowbird (the other side of Tellico) May 28th & 29th

In my humble opinion>>>WILD BLUE INTERNET>>> SUCKS! I have been waiting since my last post for some service:mad3:. With that stated, I cannot get the internet to cooperate with me to upload the pics. It takes me almost 5 min. just to get this far on Pirate. So, I'm sorry for the delay and will try to get some pics up as soon as possible. Right now we have about 20 coming out to play and I am hoping for about 100 more! I have the newspaper on standby for a positive article if we can get the numbers. This is our opportunity to take over the area and be seen by all of the businesses, County/City Leaders and FS. We get to wheel right out of Tellico OHV on Trail#6 and #1.:D:D Sounds like a parade to me!

4 rigs from tampa coming up for the weekend. see ya saturday morning.:smokin:

It doesn't look like I am going to make it up this weekend. Some things came up here at the house. This really sucks because I was really looking forward to wheeling and meeting up with yall. Have fun and take lots of pics for us stuck at home.
Robbie

Is it rain or shine??? Curious, because might have a group of five or six from sylva and canton, nc coming down.

Rain or shine so let's wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeel!!!

There should be 5-6 of us from GATTORA there by Sat AM.

See ya'll soon.

See ya'll in the am

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w209/mxcr1/100_0212.jpg

Action at Snowbird OHV today.

Youtube of gold buggy driven by Jeff Rowland.


YouTube - ‪SnowBird OHV‬‏ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVmOfRYr8TQ)

i got a vid of a toyota truggy going up that i don't know how to load it on youtube tho

Heres some action...

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i269/neptco19/Snowbird%20OHV%205-28-11/DSC03050.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i269/neptco19/Snowbird%20OHV%205-28-11/DSC03051.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i269/neptco19/Snowbird%20OHV%205-28-11/DSC03086.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i269/neptco19/Snowbird%20OHV%205-28-11/DSC03100.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i269/neptco19/Snowbird%20OHV%205-28-11/DSC03092.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i269/neptco19/Snowbird%20OHV%205-28-11/DSC03104.jpg

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i269/neptco19/Snowbird%20OHV%205-28-11/DSC03113.jpg

And some tellico pics...

Paystation on T1

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i269/neptco19/Snowbird%20OHV%205-28-11/DSC03160.jpg

Bridge construction

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i269/neptco19/Snowbird%20OHV%205-28-11/DSC03162.jpg

Lower 2

http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i269/neptco19/Snowbird%20OHV%205-28-11/DSC03164.jpg

http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w209/mxcr1/100_0198.jpg
More action at Snowbird

thats crazy its like tellico was never there

I counted over 30 rigs Saturday. Thanks for coming out. Hopefully the owner/organizers will see that it's worth it to keep developing this property. Y'all we need to call them and keep pushing them to open more trails & have 'weekend pay' events.

Did y'all see those Salmon sized trout???!!!

Had a great time, This is one hell of a nice piece of property. once they get more hardcore trails built this place is going to be really busy.
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q197/bobtail82/DSC08508.jpg

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q197/bobtail82/DSC08518.jpg

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q197/bobtail82/DSC08619.jpg

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q197/bobtail82/DSC08556.jpg

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q197/bobtail82/DSC08572.jpg
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q197/bobtail82/DSC08565.jpg
heres a veiw from buzzards roost

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q197/bobtail82/DSC08638.jpg

few more pics
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q197/bobtail82/DSC08532.jpg
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q197/bobtail82/DSC08488.jpg
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q197/bobtail82/DSC08470.jpg
big ass trout

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q197/bobtail82/DSC08481.jpg

So is there ever going to be a pass of cource for a fee, for the property for like a day or two, Like Gulches or anything? In todays economy $1000.00 is a great deal for some people that can afford it with all you get to do on the land, But on the other hand people that cant afford it will never get to see or wheel the property. Would the people not make more money charging by the day? Not trying to start anything just asking. Thanks

So is there ever going to be a pass of cource for a fee, for the property for like a day or two, Like Gulches or anything? In todays economy $1000.00 is a great deal for some people that can afford it with all you get to do on the land, But on the other hand people that cant afford it will never get to see or wheel the property. Would the people not make more money charging by the day? Not trying to start anything just asking. Thanks

?????????
:Is there a number you can call?

i got a vid of a toyota truggy going up that i don't know how to load it on youtube tho


Make a youtube account. Press upload videos, and just find your file and click on it. pretty easy.

So is there ever going to be a pass of cource for a fee, for the property for like a day or two, Like Gulches or anything? In todays economy $1000.00 is a great deal for some people that can afford it with all you get to do on the land, But on the other hand people that cant afford it will never get to see or wheel the property. Would the people not make more money charging by the day? Not trying to start anything just asking. Thanks


If your not wanting to buy a pass because of the cost call eddie @ 828-389-4362. He will do 1 day or 2 day rides for 5 rigs on the weekends for $25 per jeep per day

I can't wait to get back in the NC MOUNTAINS! I went to tellico about 6x a year the last 3 years it was open (which was the first 3 years I was wheelin)

Any new trails cut down there? Whens the next open house weekend gonna be?

had fun there would like to go back for sure

Damn just found this post. Do they have a website of for the trails, and are they still cutting new trails?
More info please

Damn just found this post. Do they have a website of for the trails, and are they still cutting new trails?
More info please

The website is snowbirdanglers.com
You can contact Eddie at 828-389-4362 for details on day rides in this area.

The website is snowbirdanglers.com
You can contact Eddie at 828-389-4362 for details on day rides in this area.

i totally read that as snow bird danglers :rainbow:

:laughing::laughing:

now that some people have been out to snowbird, I notice is is very close to the old trail we knew as little buffalo road, or robbinsville. Does snowbird intersect with little buffalo?

No, and little buffalo is now gated.

is there a map of the trailsystem?

approximately how many inches/feet/yards/miles of trail are there?

is there a map of the trailsystem?

approximately how many inches/feet/yards/miles of trail are there?

50 miles

Snowbird is a pretty cool place for the lightly modified looking for a great day of wheeling through the woods with some moderate areas. The boys on 44's walk all over what is there at the moment. Eddie is going to be cutting more trails once the leaves fall off in the bowl area that will give the big boys more options. I have taken two groups over tha past couple weekends over there that where not looking for the extreme stuff and they had a great time. The trails are starting to get churned up in some of the rocky areas making them much more fun. One trail out there enters on Tellico Tr#6 and it is a blast. Almost all rock for about 10 miles. Folks on 33-35's would have a great time on that trail.
If you guys want to get a group together let me know. We charge $25 per person and can take up to 15 persons. $25 sounds like a lot, but considering we pay $1000 per year to be members this gives us a chance to recoop some of that and folks to get a sample of the area.

If your not wanting to buy a pass because of the cost call eddie @ 828-389-4362. He will do 1 day or 2 day rides for 5 rigs on the weekends for $25 per jeep per day

I'm almost positive that should be 5 people, not 5 rigs. Membership is pretty strict on 5 guests per 1 member.

That is correct it is per person. I am looking to put together a ATV"Roach run" out there if anyone has a bug to ride. ATV wheeling out there is perfect, there are a lot of trails that ATV's can access that the trucks can't.
Somewhere around the 3rd weekend of Oct. I have ten slots open!(Maybe 15) Call me if interested. UTV's would be welcome too on that run.

The bowl at the top is worth the trip, Crawfords can vouch for the rubber my 42's left behind while climbing the various ledges. This place is only going to get better, I can't wait to see new trails when the leaves drop.

That is correct it is per person. I am looking to put together a ATV"Roach run" out there if anyone has a bug to ride. ATV wheeling out there is perfect, there are a lot of trails that ATV's can access that the trucks can't.
Somewhere around the 3rd weekend of Oct. I have ten slots open!(Maybe 15) Call me if interested. UTV's would be welcome too on that run.

Hmmm - I wonder if I could get away for this one...

Forgot I had a couple videos

MossyRunner at Snowbird - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEeFNxZhL2E)

MossyRunner at Snowbird 2 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y95vSj3rJWU&feature=related)

Forgot I had a couple videos

Cool vids. It is amazing how slick the dirt can be in places around The Bowl. The passenger side of that obstacle has continued to open up more as more people give it a run.

Feeding and fueling "the machine"!!! Do you folks realize this enterprise is deeply involved in the Tellico closure???

A very strong statement..... proof please........

Unfortunately correlation does not equal causation. Just because a man/corporation develops land in the Tellico area does not mean he/it was "deeply involved in the Tellico closure". Just because I used to wheel at Tellico and now wheel at Snowbird does not mean I had any part in encouraging the Tellico closure. Before you accuse someone who has thousands of acres available for wheeling of being "deeply involved in the Tellico closure" you really should provide proof. From your reasoning we shouldn't befriend or benefit any developers in anyway and that is a basic fallacy.

Disclaimer: I have been deeply involved in the fight to keep Tellico open and I am also a member at Snowbird for what its worth...

There, remove the quotes and it will be filled with bliss once again.

Please - stop being a fruitcake :shaking:

I'll be out at Snowbird a few times this winter as I'm mapping the trails. "Leaf off" makes accurate GPS reception much easier to come by. Hopefully there will be at least one snow run. I know there will also be some additional trail 're-clearing' so by early spring there should be substantially more intermediate trails to ride.

Whats the latest on Snow Bird? Havent herd much about it lately. Is it still open? Open to the public or Members only? Update please

Whats the latest on Snow Bird? Havent herd much about it lately. Is it still open? Open to the public or Members only? Update please

Snowbird is still open for members and guests. I was up there Saturday (3/10) with a couple of other members and guests and had a blast.

Snowbird is still open for members and guests. I was up there Saturday (3/10) with a couple of other members and guests and had a blast.

Have they opened any other rock sections?

Have they opened any other rock sections?

I did not make it over to 'The Bowl' (area with the most rocks) my last trip up there but I was told last fall that several of the members were planning on opening more rock areas around there, plus a trail heading north from The Bowl and looping around to intersect an existing trail. The lower climb to Buzzards Roost has more rocks than last fall, and we found a few promising areas on the northwest portion of the property.

I did not make it over to 'The Bowl' (area with the most rocks) my last trip up there but I was told last fall that several of the members were planning on opening more rock areas around there, plus a trail heading north from The Bowl and looping around to intersect an existing trail. The lower climb to Buzzards Roost has more rocks than last fall, and we found a few promising areas on the northwest portion of the property.

I really want to ride at this place again. If anyone has any recent pics please post up esp. of any newer stuff. There were some really crawls in some of the valleys we passed last may, it would be nice if they'd open some of that. At least get down where some trees are and some shade. It was hot as hell up there where the rocks were w/o any shade!

They should do another open house in May.

I really want to ride at this place again. If anyone has any recent pics please post up esp. of any newer stuff. There were some really crawls in some of the valleys we passed last may, it would be nice if they'd open some of that. At least get down where some trees are and some shade. It was hot as hell up there where the rocks were w/o any shade!

I only took one pic of the climb up to Buzzards Roost and it was of the ditch at the bottom with an 80 Series LandCruiser stuck and preparing to winch.

I think I've seen some of those shaded rock gardens off to the side of trails. I'll look more closely at them next time I'm up there in April.

Any one know when it might be open to the public? If ever?

Any one know when it might be open to the public? If ever?

I've been told the plan is for it to be open to members and guests only.

I've been told the plan is for it to be open to members and guests only.


Dont quite undestand the consept, Wouldnt there not be alot more money generated if they would open to the public? Maybe a liabilty issue? Or is this just for the well to do an there buddies a private place to wheel? Not trying to start any thing by any means. Just hard for some people to cough up 1K for a year of wheeling, in 1 place.

Thrash is a GREEDY puke period! Any questions?

Thrash is a GREEDY puke period! Any questions?

Huh? Who's Thrash?

Huh? Who's Thrash?

He owns Snowbird along with MANY other properties in the area, is an ex-Forest Service employee from the 60s who leveraged insider information and green connections to pad his already budging bank account which continues to this day.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13676592&postcount=208

I had much more on him but it was removed by a mod and I ain't gonna stick it back up.

He owns Snowbird along with MANY other properties in the area, is an ex-Forest Service employee from the 60s who leveraged insider information and green connections to pad his already budging bank account which continues to this day.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showpost.php?p=13676592&postcount=208

I had much more on him but it was removed by a mod and I ain't gonna stick it back up.
So another words money isnt an issue, an I guess it will never be open to the public to turn revenue for the park. :evil:

Money is the WHOLE issue!!!

Take the name of the place to start with . . . it is “Snowbird Anglers” not “Snowbird OHV”.

Then there is the definition of “Snow Birds” (sic) . . .

"An elderly person who drives 1x10^25 too slow, and drives a huge, polluting SUV covered in war veteran stickers. And when they drive, their heads tend to disappear.

Someone who complains about the locals just because their lives are now obsolete and meaningless.

Someone who donates unfathomable amounts of money to funds that don't really need it.”

Then there is the fact that most of the people who pay a grand per year to fish and recreate there, the very people who have “Trout Unlimited” stickers on their rigs and were responsible for the closure of Tellico are the main subscribers to memberships.

Then there’s the fact that OHV memberships for OHV are limited to a set quota and cut-off point, 50 miles of OHV dedicated trail at this point and hence preserving, to a degree, the sanctity of the “Snowbirds”, both groups being cordoned off from each other by all practical points of view monetarily, by set quotas and proximity to resources.

Never mind that the property actually includes a bit of the old Tellico trails and requires group gropes to maximize an OHV persons investment.

Snowbird didn’t come by its name accidentally due to Little Snow Bird being part of their holdings . . .