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Old 07-09-2006, 01:39 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Angry Bad Seller - metaland (Timothy Harland)

I bought a 1984 4runner from metaland, with the description basically stating that it had a newly-rebuilt motor, was a daily driver and the only problems were a bad slave cylinder and a bad power window on the driver's side. Well, as it turns out, metaland is basically a lying thief. I called him to try to work this out, but his answer was basically "hey, I sold it as-is". So I'm just going to try to make sure that no one else deals with this slimeball.

Specifically, here are the problems that he "forgot" to mention:

1. the motor may or may not be newly-rebuilt (he's "not really sure", was his reply on the phone). Since every bolt I've pulled out of it shows stripped threads (the threads that are in the morot itself), I think the engine is old, or at very least was put together by a complete idiot.

2. The CLUTCH is out. The slave cylinder was also out, but I suspect that he did that on purpose to hide the fact that the clutch was bad. After jacking with the slave cylinder for 3 days, I finally put it in the shop, where I paid to have the clutch replaced.

3. The rear brakes don't work.

4. The headlights don't work - can't tell if they're burned out or if it's something electrical (the wiring looks like it was done by a team of drunk monkeys).

5. The engine runs, but has some leaks due to things like the stripped threads. And it appears that some studs may be broken off in the motor, so there's no easy way to fix some of the leaks.

6. Every time I look at a part of the vehicle, there's another problem.

Just wanted to let everyone know - don't deal with this slimebag.

-- Frank
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Old 07-09-2006, 07:57 PM   #2 (permalink)
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how much did you pay for it?????????????????
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Old 07-10-2006, 05:36 AM   #3 (permalink)
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$1900, which would have been about right if the clutch and engine were good, but they weren't. Hell, I drove the thing last night and a belt popped off. Upon closer inspection I see that only one bolt (out of the expected 4) is holding the fan and fan pulley on, and that bolt is loose, so the pulley is wobbly.
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Old 07-10-2006, 09:35 AM   #4 (permalink)
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I gotta ask, did you Inspect the runner before you bought it? I have spent months shopping for the right used truck, and if I find something I missed after I bought it, it's my issue, it's buyer beware.
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Old 07-10-2006, 12:32 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I would like to respectfully remind ncmogger that there were 2 prices for the 4runner.
A. 1900 for it as is (wich is the option you chose)
B. 2300 fully drivable, in wich I would have just brought it to a shop and they would have fixed the problem.

Both of these prices were listed in the original ad.
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Old 07-10-2006, 03:50 PM   #6 (permalink)
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No, there was a price *drop* to 1900

There weren't two prices - you dropped the price to $1900.

There's no way that ALL of the problems could have possibly been fixed for an additional $400. After driving it again the other day, I found that 3 of the 4 bolts holding the fan on were missing, and the last bolt was barely hanging on. The way I found that out is the fan belt flew off.

I realize that it is buyer beware with used vehicles, but flat out lying about the condition and known problems with the vehicle is just wrong.

For example, you stated that the motor is a fresh rebuilt Jasper engine, and that's just not really possible, unless you made sure to get the cheapest POS around. BOTH motor mounts are broken - that's normally something that would be changed with the engine. And that's in addition to all of the threads (the ones in the MOTOR) that are stripped.
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Old 07-10-2006, 05:24 PM   #7 (permalink)
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If you had read the ad carefully you would have seen the 2 differnet prices. I have in no way implied that 400 dollars would have covered the repair cost, but instead offered a way for unsure buyers to be satisfied. Also I never said the motor was rebuilt by Jasper. It was a retiree who had an amputated ankle, and I helped Him with a lot of labor. (Heavy lifting, tree removal, yardwork, etc.) I did not know the full extent of the motor, and if you had inspected and told me before the exchange I would've been happy to get it fixed for the aformentioned price of 2300.

If there is a mod who can pull a sever backup file of the ad before it was deleted I would apreciate it. Thank you.

Last edited by metaland; 07-10-2006 at 05:25 PM.
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Old 07-11-2006, 04:52 AM   #8 (permalink)
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I would really like to see the ad before you removed it

... because it said "less than 100 miles on rebuilt Jasper engine". There was no sob story about an amputee (I don't really even know why that matters). It also stated that there was a "small oil leak where the timing cover meets the motor", which would normally indicate to me that you had looked at the engine after the install and that you were conscienciously divulging all of the problems with the vehicle, but that's simply not the case. You deliberately described it in a way that made it sound like it was basically good to go. But the truth is that the engine needs to be completely removed and disassembled or replaced, because it's leaking oil and antifreeze everywhere.

Once again, I realize that it's "buyer beware", and I was stupid for trusting your word about the condition of the vehicle. But as a comparison, I bought my Mog from a guy in Florida, sight unseen, based on his honest description of its condition, and had a company trailer it up to me. Once I received it, it was in EXACTLY the condition the previous owner had stated - no surprises. I was just expecting that kind of honesty from you, but, like I said, I was stupid for doing that.

From talking to you on the phone, it sounds like you feel like you got screwed with the engine deal, so you feel perfectly justified in passing the screwing on to someone else (me, in this case). And I guess to some people, that's "just human nature". But to me, it means that you're a lying, slimy sleazeball that I will never do business with again. And I'm just making my feelings known to the list so that anyone else who deals with you knows what they're getting into.

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Old 07-11-2006, 12:09 PM   #9 (permalink)
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It sounds to me like you put too much faith in a STRANGER. Granted, it sucks that you found out about all these problems after the fact, but if I don't know the seller or know of him/her, I'm going to assume he/she is a lying bastard and going to look over every last detail. If the seller asks, "why are you looking at everything? I'm leaving.

I have had friends purchase vehicles that had sawdust in the T-case, been rewired with LV solid wire, had holes patched with roofing shingles, and the like. People have been looking to swindle people ever since Jacob conned his dad out of Esau's birthright (look it up here).

Therefore, if someone's brother is willing to do that, than certainly a stranger wouldn't have any hesitation about doing so. Therefore, spend time inspecting a potential purchase. If the seller says the motor was rebuilt, check the compression. If he doesn't want you to do that...then you have to make a decision as to whether or not buying said vehicle on "his" word is worth a potential turd.
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Old 07-11-2006, 10:47 PM   #10 (permalink)
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i bought a truck last year with out even driving it, big mistake , it turns out the tranny was fucked. did i come on here and cry about it , no i fixed my self and keep my mouth shut, i don't need any more people knowing im an idiot
you bought a 22 year old truck that needs work. so the guy bullshited you , you still bought it.
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Old 07-12-2006, 03:59 AM   #11 (permalink)
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I'm not cryin - I'm out some money and time and I'm dealing with it. I posted here to let other people know that this guy is not to be trusted. I've dealt with several other people here (PuffDragon and DukGuy, for example) who are completely ethical in their posts and the way they do business. I just made the stupid, BONEHEADED assumption that everyone else on this list was about the same.

I think it's a sad state of affairs that you're chastising me, the buyer, for trusting someone on this list rather than giving the seller hell for lying. Yes, I was naive and stupid - point well taken, thank you - but don't you think metaland did something wrong in misrepresenting the goods he was selling? If not, then I wouldn't want to do business with you.
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Old 07-12-2006, 05:09 PM   #12 (permalink)
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BS, your crying or you would not have started this thread

When it comes to used vehicles, no mater what, it's buyer beware, period. With 75,000 + members on this BB, it's a rather naive assumption that just because they are members here that they are "Honest"

Also, someone is not a lier if not specifically asked. IE, if you don't ask, they don't have to tell.
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Old 07-12-2006, 06:00 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ncmogger
I think it's a sad state of affairs that you're chastising me, the buyer, for trusting someone on this list rather than giving the seller hell for lying. Yes, I was naive and stupid - point well taken, thank you - but don't you think metaland did something wrong in misrepresenting the goods he was selling? If not, then I wouldn't want to do business with you.
I think overt misrepresenting of merchandise is a despicable act. I have made some mistakes concerning my purchases in the past, but in each one of them, I blamed myself for proceeding with the buy.

Only you and Metaland know what was said in your verbal exchanges. Therefore, I'm not going to conduct a probing panel hearing to ascertain y'alls testimony.

Okay...If Metaland overtly lied to you, then shame on him for being a less than honest seller. Utimately, what are you going to do?
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Old 07-12-2006, 07:46 PM   #14 (permalink)
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You should have looked it over and worked him down on the price. It's the american way. You can't just walk up, hand the dude cash, and drive away unless it's a new car. Even then you have to "work" them at least a little.
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Old 07-12-2006, 07:54 PM   #15 (permalink)
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What I'm doing is selling the 4runner (with all of its problems listed in the ad) for less than I paid for it because I don't want the headache and I don't want to look at the damn thing. I just think that everyone is responsible and accountable for their own actions, and I wanted to publicly document MY OPINION that Metaland is not to be trusted based on my interaction with him. I freely admit that I'm completely at fault for not scrutinizing the vehicle as thoroughly as I should have. There ya are. Now I'm shutting up about it and moving on. Thanks everyone for your replies.
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Old 07-13-2006, 10:08 AM   #16 (permalink)
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WTF is this world coming to???? WTF is wrong with you people???

It's OK to lie to people???? When did this become consistent with being a fawking breathing human being? Granted, the old days of the handshake and your word is your bond isn't what it used to be, but I expect better from the wheeling community. I've bought tons of stuff from wheelers all over, and I damn well expect my questions to be answered truthfully. Whether it's around an item for sale or the start of a trailhead or a good place to buy a cold beer, people should be held to the basic standard of truth....

If he lied, it's bull$hit, plain and simple....can't believe people think it's OK to lie and are defending that position.....I would expect this crap from some of the weaka$$ liberal victim welfare society, but not here.....if he didn't lie, then that is a defensible position....it's tough to know every little issue on a vehicle, but if you are listing problems, you need to tell it all....
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Old 07-13-2006, 09:03 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG PERM
WTF is this world coming to???? WTF is wrong with you people???

It's OK to lie to people???? When did this become consistent with being a fawking breathing human being? Granted, the old days of the handshake and your word is your bond isn't what it used to be, but I expect better from the wheeling community. I've bought tons of stuff from wheelers all over, and I damn well expect my questions to be answered truthfully. Whether it's around an item for sale or the start of a trailhead or a good place to buy a cold beer, people should be held to the basic standard of truth....
I've got some...Oh-shun front prop-purtee in Arizohna..... I do wholeheartedly believe that most wheelers are outstanding people. Whether it's getting a tug, sharing some beverages or food, etc with a stranger, it's a good community with good people. But, unless I know you or a close friend vouches for you, I'm going to approach you with my guard up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG PERM
If he lied, it's bull$hit, plain and simple....can't believe people think it's OK to lie and are defending that position.....I would expect this crap from some of the weaka$$ liberal victim welfare society, but not here.....if he didn't lie, then that is a defensible position....it's tough to know every little issue on a vehicle, but if you are listing problems, you need to tell it all....
It's also tough to know EXACTLY what was discussed between these two without ever attending their conversions. Therefore, without knowing what was said, I would have to err on the side of caution, and past experiences, and scrutenize every little aspect of a potential purchase.

I never condoned outright lying....but I'm not about to get into a discussion over he said, they said either.
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Old 07-14-2006, 07:51 AM   #18 (permalink)
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It's also tough to know EXACTLY what was discussed between these two without ever attending their conversions. Therefore, without knowing what was said, I would have to err on the side of caution, and past experiences, and scrutenize every little aspect of a potential purchase.

I never condoned outright lying....but I'm not about to get into a discussion over he said, they said either.
Totally agreed here. But if it is true that the original ad on this board stated "less than 100 miles on rebuilt Jasper engine" as ncmogger claims, that would certainly be a bald a$$ lie.

Is there any way the original ad could be resurrected? ncmogger, you should PM a mod about that.
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Old 07-14-2006, 09:42 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Good point. I've PM'd Lance to see if it's possible.
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Old 07-15-2006, 11:00 AM   #20 (permalink)
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* I said I was done, but I just read the Charlie Wenzel post and it got me all riled up, so I'm back, and I can hopefully give a clear and accurate account of the facts. Then I'm gonna rant like a wild man. *

<FACTS>
I haven't heard back from Lance, but I *did* find someone who can back up at least a portion of my side of the story (luckily, it's what I think is the most important part). He was also interested in the 4runner:

(from his PM to me in response to my PM to him asking if he was the person interested in the 4runner)

"Yeah I rember it, I read your post about it being a POS. Sorry that you got screwed. I do know that he posted that it had a rebuilt 22R. That was one of the reason I wanted it."

(I told him I wouldn't bring his name up, but metaland, you remember him - he wanted to trade his motorcycle.)

Now for the background: Once I paid Timothy for the 4runner, he IMMEDIATELY edited his original post to remove all of the details (he changed the entire body of the post to "SOLD!!!"). So at this point, he had already made sure that I would have very little evidence to back up my claims. But, as the other interested party mentioned above, the post stated "newly rebuilt 22r" (I may be on crack about the Jasper part, so I'll retract my statement about a Jasper engine).

After 2 days of jacking with the slave cylinder, only to find that it seemed like the clutch was out, I called Timothy and asked him:

"Are you sure the clutch is good? I've put in 2 different slave cylinders and it really seems like the clutch is out."

To which he responded,

"Yeah, when we put the engine in, it looked fine. And it worked great while the slave cylinder was good."

So I got back under the damn thing for another day only to realize, yes, the clutch was bad. But I figured "Hey, it'll be $500 for the clutch, and I'll have a brand new clutch to go along with that FRESHLY REBUILT ENGINE."

So I put it in the shop while I went out of town for a week. The shop called when it was done and told me that both motor mounts were broken and that the header was to a 22RE, rather than a 22R, so some holes needed to be plugged up. I was still thinking this was allright - I could change the motor mounts easily (tho that's something anyone rebuilding/replacing a motor would most likely do), and welding up the exhaust would be no problem. Once I got the exhaust leaks fixed is when I started finding the other problems. At this point I called Timothy and left a message stating I thought he completely misrepresented his goods and that I wanted him to refund $500 of the money I gave him, and to call me. He called me that night and I told him about all of the problems (listed at the top of this thread). He gave me the sob story about the amputee, and he said things like "I don't know about engines", "I took the guy's word for it that it was rebuilt", "I only live 3/4 of a mile from work - I wouldn't know about those problems", and "Maybe I drove on the bad slave cylinder and damaged the clutch". He made no offer of apology or restitution. I told him it was a sh*tty thing to do and hung up on him.

The next day (the same day I started this thread, 7/9/06), I posted the list of problems to his original thread. The other guy who was interested replied with something similar to "I'm glad I didn't trade my bike for that thing." The next day (7/10/06), when Timothy saw this thread and my post to his original thread, HE DELETED HIS ORIGINAL THREAD TO DESTROY ANY ADDITIONAL EVIDENCE (I didn't realize before that moment that one could delete one's own threads). So AFTER DELETING THE INFORMATION THAT SHOWED HIM TO BE AS HONEST AS A USED CAR SALESMAN, he posts that:

"If there is a mod who can pull a sever backup file of the ad before it was deleted I would apreciate it. Thank you." (HE HAD JUST - i.e. MERE MOMENTS BEFORE WRITING THAT STATEMENT, IF NOT RIGHT AFTER - DELETED THE FAWKING THING AND IS NOW ACTING LIKE HE SURE WISHES IT WASN'T DELETED).

Since then, I've stated several times, and I quote:

"I realize that it's "buyer beware", and I was stupid for trusting your [Timothy's] word about the condition of the vehicle"

"I just made the stupid, BONEHEADED assumption that everyone else on this list was about the same. "

"Yes, I was naive and stupid - point well taken, thank you"

"I freely admit that I'm completely at fault for not scrutinizing the vehicle as thoroughly as I should have."

</FACTS>

<RANTINGLIKEACRAZYMAN>

Specifically to johny5, how much more responsibility can I possibly take?? I'm not *ucking crying. I'm letting the honest members of this board (and after your posts, I don't think that includes you) know that this mutherscratcher is not a "Stand up guy". He hasn't admitted one stinkin lick of fault, and that's BULLSHIT. I'm not asking for money from the sonofabitch - just an admission of some damn fault. If you got screwed on a deal and didn't try to right the wrong, but you're now bringing it up months or years later, I think you should seek some counselling to get over that anger - it's apparently still bothering you. I got screwed by being lied to, and I'm doing what I can about it. Unethical behavior is NOT illegal behavior, so I can't do anything legally about it. And I'm a grown, successful man, so I'm not going to challenge anyone to a fight or anything stupid like that. So all I've got is the court of public opinion, and that's where I've taken this.

To steveh - It's not crying, it's expressing my opinion and my frustration at the situation IN A FORUM NAMED "Bad sellers, Disputes, etc." THIS IS WHERE I'M SUPPOSED TO POST EXACTLY THIS TYPE OF COMPLAINT. So I'm not real sure how you got to be a moderator of this forum - kinda like having a Complaint department, then knecapping anyone who tries to file a complaint. I was looking for an apology/admission of responsibility of some type from metaland, or at least a gathering of users who were offended by this *type* oe behavior. I didn't expect to get some braindead jacknuts who think that the PBB is the perfect place for used-car-salesmen-in-training to practice their trade.

To Acesn8s, if I'm stupid enough to buy your Oh-shun front property (as I was stupid enough to buy this damn vehicle), I'm going to tell everyone I can that you're a thief. Based on your logic, it's allright for someone to rip off rich old people with Alzheimers, because it's the buyer's responsibility to make sure the seller's not lying. That's retarded.

To Propane, "the American way"? Are you on crack? Maybe it's YOUR American way, but everyone trying to screw everyone else isn't "American" in my book (unless you were trying to make a joke using irony, in which case it's pretty funny; but sadly, I don't think you were). "American" to me (and anyone I call a friend) means always trying your hardest to do the right thing, even when it hurts emotionally, financially, physically, or otherwise. And that's the plain and simple rule I follow.

To BIG PERM, thank you for showing me that SOMEONE ethical is still out there. I'm not claiming you're on my side in the "he said/they said" argument, but I'm very happy you chimed in with your opinion about honesty. Truly, WTF IS WRONG WITH PEOPLE WHO THINK LYING IS OK???

</RANTINGLIKEACRAZYMAN>

<EXPLANATIONOFMYWAYOFDOINGHTINGS>

I've bought and sold lots of vehicles in my life. I've always been more than honest with the condition of anything I've sold. Hell, I had a Suburban that was so riddled with problems that I flat out refused to sell it in one piece - the individual components were just fine, but all in a package, nothing worked quite right - I parted it out, and every buyer was 100% satisfied with their individual parts. I *knew* that anyone who bought the complete vehicle would be pissed off because there was really no way I could enumerate all of the problems.

In my business (I'm a computer consultant), I don't pull the unethical crap that other companies pull. It's a difficult business model to keep up, but we bid for jobs AND WE DON'T GO OVER BUDGET. EVER. We promise that we'll do X and Y in Z amount of time. If we haven't finished X and Y after Z amount of time, WE COMPLETE THE WORK FOR NO ADDITIONAL COST TO THE CUSTOMER. Yes, sounds silly, but that's what we do.

So those are just two examples of the way I conduct myself in dealing with others. Yes, I get screwed sometimes because of it, but I can sleep well every night knowing that I'm doing my best to take the moral high road.

</EXPLANATIONOFMYWAYOFDOINGHTINGS>

Fire away, people. Until that little pizzant metaland gives an apology, I'm not letting this go.
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Old 07-16-2006, 03:54 PM   #21 (permalink)
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I mean the american way of at least negotiating the price. NOT screwing anyone. Sorry ya got burnt. Better luck next time.
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Old 07-16-2006, 08:53 PM   #22 (permalink)
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welcome to used car buying, what makes you think the p/o ever knew what was really wrong with the truck, or even bothered looking into why it leaked. next time bring a mechanic.
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Old 07-17-2006, 08:10 AM   #23 (permalink)
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To propane: Pragmatically, I can see your point. Idealogically, I disagree, but I do see your point.

To NOODLES:

My CLAIM is that the p/o knew about all of the problems and LIED about them to get rid of the truck. The FACT, verifiable by another user, is that metaland stated that the engine was "newly rebuilt", and that's an outright lie by any real man's definition of the term (stripped threads, leaking everywhere, broken brackets, etc.). If metaland had been honest about the actual condition of the engine (saying something like "I made a deal with a one-armed monkey who says he rebuilt the engine"), then I never would have looked at the POS.

I've admitted (and restated) my STUPIDITY and personal fault in this deal. That's not in question. My goal in starting this thread is twofold:

1. To alert other users to MY EXPERIENCE that metaland is a sleazy, lying thief (this doesn't appear to be working well - the majority of others posting think that the stereotypical used car salesman approach is perfectly OK).

2. To force metaland to own up to his actions and to be a man about it. I claim that he knowingly misrepresented the good he was selling and deceived me (yes, you other mutherscratchers who will feel compelled to chime in, I SHOULD HAVE BEEN MORE DILIGENT, but I wasn't BECAUSE I TRUSTED A MAN AT HIS WORD). His defense to this charge has been to DELETE THE EVIDENCE and to say "well, if you had read the original post [which I've deleted] ...", which is BULLSHIT.

Maybe I'm fighting a losing battle here, but I would really, REALLY enjoy this world better if I didn't have to constantly guard against someone screwing me. I think that personal dignity and responsibility should be such an integral part of every human that this type of behavior isn't tolerated IN ANY ENDEAVOR. The reality is that there are LOTS of slimeballs out there. I've just hit some sort of threshold where I'm trying to do something about ONE SLIMEBALL. AND YOU IDIOTS WHO ARE TELLING ME I'M WRONG ARE JUST HELPING TO DETERIORATE THE AMERICAN WAY OF LIFE as I know it. STOP THAT SHIT.

A valid response is for someone to ask that little twerp metaland some easy questions:

1. What exactly did the original post say? [I've PM'd Lance and MattS, and sent an email to SanDiegoCJ trying to get the thread resurrected. Have you really done anything to try to retrieve the evidence THAT YOU KNOWINGLY AND MALICIOUSLY DELETED???]

2. In the absence of the above evidence, how do you explain the established fact that you stated the engine was freshly rebuilt, when it clearly was not? [ You've made several posts about engine swaps and other technical issues, so if you paid/traded/bartered to have the engine rebuilt, it's MY OPINION that you knew about its problems and were simply trying to pawn them off on some unsuspecting, trusting idiot (whose username happens to be 'ncmogger', as it turns out)]

But so far, no one is asking that sonofabitch anything. You're just telling me that I should be more careful. Well, f*ck you very much for that. I TOOK A MAN'S WORD AS THE TRUTH. TURNS OUT HE LIED. I've admitted fault in as many ways as possible, but if you think that I'm 100% at fault, you're a slimeball, too.
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Old 07-17-2006, 08:59 PM   #24 (permalink)
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I don't bitch about the cruiser axles my buddy bought, drove up to reno to get, advertised with a pair of detroits and a broken hud. it was a broken 27spline chromolly long, with another beat and wore out one, but was still useable. and the front detroit was a lockright. and the steering studs were american thread and the knuckles were tapped on the one side to match. an the passenger side trunions were replaced with bushings and not bearings. it is not worth complaining about. buy a heli coil, buy a 76 dollar clutch. not to say you didn't get screwed and I am soorry your did, but the problems are so miniscule (too me at least, thank god I have a full auto repair shop). I wish I could help you. but nc is too far away.
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Old 07-18-2006, 09:17 AM   #25 (permalink)
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NOODLES, thanks for the offer. I appreciate it. You make some valid points. And if metaland would have honestly stated the problems, whoever bought the vehicle probably would have considered them small problems (really, lights and brakes aren't anything - just ON TOP of the engine, they pissed me off pretty bad). I've actually sold the vehicle to someone who does consider them small problems, so it's gone.

What I'm doing at this point is trying to hold a man accountable for his actions, since I've already been forced to account for mine.
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Autometer gauges
MBRP Stainless Exhaust
Edge Evolution
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[url]http://picasaweb.google.com/dr.frank.tate/NewTruck[/url]

Propane-powered 65 Unimog on 41s - SOLD!
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