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Old 02-24-2012, 09:14 PM   #1 (permalink)
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TBI conversion SBC

Putting TBI system on my SBC. Looking for good threads on disabling featured of the ECM I don't need (like VSS and EGR). Also looking for good source on vacuum ports. I've been hunting around on pirate and there's a lot on here. Tough to sort through so just making a shout out there to see if someone would make some suggestions on threads. I am documenting the project on a blog that has pictures, info and lots of questions too. http://hansjeep.blogspot.com/
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Old 02-24-2012, 09:17 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Putting TBI system on my SBC. Looking for good threads on disabling featured of the ECM I don't need (like VSS and EGR). Also looking for good source on vacuum ports. I've been hunting around on pirate and there's a lot on here. Tough to sort through so just making a shout out there to see if someone would make some suggestions on threads. I am documenting the project on a blog that has pictures, info and lots of questions too. http://hansjeep.blogspot.com/
You can't disable shit in the ECM without re-programming.
Can you burn chips?
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Old 02-24-2012, 10:27 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I read somwhere you may be able to jumper wires (it was specifcally referring to disable the VSS). I may have to get the chip burned. I know a guy who could probably do it. This is pretty archaic by his standards! I'm not concerned about re flashing it, I just have to know what all needs to be reprogrammed first though. Then perhaps it has to run for a while and get a tune too...
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Old 02-25-2012, 12:26 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Why disable the VSS? It doesn't do anything except setup the clutch lockup in a 700r4, assuming you are talking a 7747 ECU.
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Old 02-25-2012, 06:11 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Why disable the VSS? It doesn't do anything except setup the clutch lockup in a 700r4, assuming you are talking a 7747 ECU.
Yes it's a 7747. I've read that the VSS also had a purpose for emissions. I don't know how dependent the ECM's program is on various sensors. I want the computer happy so that it is running in closed loop mode, otherwise I might as well just slap the carb back on it...

Here's the label on the computer:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Lu6ofjPBf5...oto%285%29.JPG
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Old 02-25-2012, 08:19 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Yes it's a 7747. I've read that the VSS also had a purpose for emissions. I don't know how dependent the ECM's program is on various sensors. I want the computer happy so that it is running in closed loop mode, otherwise I might as well just slap the carb back on it...

Here's the label on the computer:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Lu6ofjPBf5...oto%285%29.JPG
Just leave it alone. It doesn't have a damn thing to do with emissions. Even if it did, why disable it unless it hurts performance? Sort of like all the assholes removing the Evap systems just because they are "emissions". I'm not a treehugger by any definition, and I'll pitch some of that in the garbage if it hurts performance or needs costly repairs, but come on man. Just going to pitch it because you heard some nonsense somewhere. Hell, 80 percent of the folks who block off EGR are better off leaving it on, but they got some insane notion that if it is emissions, then it can't be good. Lots of them suddenly find overheating problems, and burnt valves, because the EGR helps things run a bit cooler, and blocking it leans the engine out. Hell, if you want to disable the EGR, just drive with your foot on the floor all the time. Yeah, that's right. It is only used in part throttle operation.

How about you spend some time researching why you want to do something, instead of just how to, and make some informed decisions.
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Last edited by dahoyle; 02-25-2012 at 08:22 AM.
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Old 02-25-2012, 08:55 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Just leave it alone. It doesn't have a damn thing to do with emissions. Even if it did, why disable it unless it hurts performance? Sort of like all the assholes removing the Evap systems just because they are "emissions". I'm not a treehugger by any definition, and I'll pitch some of that in the garbage if it hurts performance or needs costly repairs, but come on man. Just going to pitch it because you heard some nonsense somewhere. Hell, 80 percent of the folks who block off EGR are better off leaving it on, but they got some insane notion that if it is emissions, then it can't be good. Lots of them suddenly find overheating problems, and burnt valves, because the EGR helps things run a bit cooler, and blocking it leans the engine out. Hell, if you want to disable the EGR, just drive with your foot on the floor all the time. Yeah, that's right. It is only used in part throttle operation.

How about you spend some time researching why you want to do something, instead of just how to, and make some informed decisions.
^ nicely put
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Old 02-25-2012, 09:49 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Well for someone who has done this swap before it seems easy but it takes a while to get there. Put yourself in someone elses shoes before you start flaming. Just for kicks try typing "tbi conversion" in google and see all the random stuff that pops up. It takes a while to sort through it all and determine what is relevant.
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Old 02-25-2012, 10:21 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Don't get all butthurt. I am pointing you in the right direction, but you have to develop a basic understanding of internal combustion engines, their various systems, and how they interact,,,,,,,,before you start modifying them.

As near as I can tell, you know jack shit about engines in general. You have an obvious lack of understanding about the purpose of the VSS, and the EGR, yet seem quite willing to discard both because of some vague notion that they are emissions related, and therefor "Bad". Hell, in the case of the VSS, it has nothing at all to do with emissions.

Do yourself a favor, and start reading. Don't complain about the amount of information out there. Sort thru it, and learn from it. Complaining that is too hard, well, that sure as hell isn't going to motivate anyone to spend any of their own time to help you out.

If you think that too much information is bad, well, you really wouldn't like to learn the way some of us older folks did. Hell, we would have to actually search for, and read books to get some of the information we needed. Those were our only resources, aside from some occasional mentoring, and a hell of a lot of time learning things by trial and error, and scrounging thru salvage yards. Consider yourself lucky.

Not knowing something, well, that's not a bad thing. Learning takes time and most importantly effort on your part. You seem unwilling to invest either, but seem to expect everyone to invest theirs in you. I'll leave it at that, and let you stew on it.

Now, the last piece of advice I'm going to offer, is that if you want to do a TBI swap, then concentrate on doing a TBI swap, and not a bunch of poorly thought out "improvements" based on a poor understanding of what constitutes an upgrade.. Stick to the basics, and swap the entire thing, and get it running. If I was in your shoes, I would swap the entire engine, as well as the associated sensors, harness, and CPU. That is a fairly simple project which requires a lot less understanding. You need to know a bit, but it is within the ability level of pretty much anyone. Go back to Google, and pick out some sources of information which look reliable, and run with them. For the most part, tho, all you really need is a wiring diagram. There are plenty of them out there, so I won't hold your hand and find one for you.

The last thing I'm going to say, is that up till now, you have been given nothing but assistance. You have not been flamed by any stretch of the definition. If you wish that to continue, the you had best, by God, not come back with any more fucking excuses about there being too much information available. A simple thank you, kiss my ass, or nothing at all will suffice. If you try to make your ignorance my problem, or somehow try to lay it on anything except lack of effort on your part, I promise you will learn the true definition of being flamed.
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Old 02-25-2012, 02:11 PM   #10 (permalink)
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DaHoyle is giving you sound advice. The VSS circuit should be complete for proper vehicle operation. To bypass it to save $100, and have to pay for programming is stupid. vehicle wil die in certain deceleration situations, and as has be mentioned, the torque converter will not lockup.
EGR works in high vacuum situations, and actually increases mileage.
Don't rattle DaHoyle, because he'll get way worse.
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Old 02-25-2012, 06:32 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by dahoyle View Post
Don't get all butthurt. I am pointing you in the right direction, but you have to develop a basic understanding of internal combustion engines, their various systems, and how they interact,,,,,,,,before you start modifying them.

As near as I can tell, you know jack shit about engines in general. You have an obvious lack of understanding about the purpose of the VSS, and the EGR, yet seem quite willing to discard both because of some vague notion that they are emissions related, and therefor "Bad". Hell, in the case of the VSS, it has nothing at all to do with emissions.

Do yourself a favor, and start reading. Don't complain about the amount of information out there. Sort thru it, and learn from it. Complaining that is too hard, well, that sure as hell isn't going to motivate anyone to spend any of their own time to help you out.

If you think that too much information is bad, well, you really wouldn't like to learn the way some of us older folks did. Hell, we would have to actually search for, and read books to get some of the information we needed. Those were our only resources, aside from some occasional mentoring, and a hell of a lot of time learning things by trial and error, and scrounging thru salvage yards. Consider yourself lucky.

Not knowing something, well, that's not a bad thing. Learning takes time and most importantly effort on your part. You seem unwilling to invest either, but seem to expect everyone to invest theirs in you. I'll leave it at that, and let you stew on it.

Now, the last piece of advice I'm going to offer, is that if you want to do a TBI swap, then concentrate on doing a TBI swap, and not a bunch of poorly thought out "improvements" based on a poor understanding of what constitutes an upgrade.. Stick to the basics, and swap the entire thing, and get it running. If I was in your shoes, I would swap the entire engine, as well as the associated sensors, harness, and CPU. That is a fairly simple project which requires a lot less understanding. You need to know a bit, but it is within the ability level of pretty much anyone. Go back to Google, and pick out some sources of information which look reliable, and run with them. For the most part, tho, all you really need is a wiring diagram. There are plenty of them out there, so I won't hold your hand and find one for you.

The last thing I'm going to say, is that up till now, you have been given nothing but assistance. You have not been flamed by any stretch of the definition. If you wish that to continue, the you had best, by God, not come back with any more fucking excuses about there being too much information available. A simple thank you, kiss my ass, or nothing at all will suffice. If you try to make your ignorance my problem, or somehow try to lay it on anything except lack of effort on your part, I promise you will learn the true definition of being flamed.
This is the kind of crap that drags down forums. If you have nothing good to say say nothing at all. I didn't describe much about my project on here. There's plenty I have figured out. If you don't like me asking about something just butt out. The last damn thing I am is lazy and looking for a free lunch. I've read through a lot of information. There's plenty of people out here who like to discuss things. I give and take on forums. You obviously like to flame more than anything else. Go ahead a flame away some more. I don't care and I won't take any more bait.
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Old 02-25-2012, 10:29 PM   #12 (permalink)
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This is the kind of crap that drags down forums. If you have nothing good to say say nothing at all. I didn't describe much about my project on here. There's plenty I have figured out. If you don't like me asking about something just butt out. The last damn thing I am is lazy and looking for a free lunch. I've read through a lot of information. There's plenty of people out here who like to discuss things. I give and take on forums. You obviously like to flame more than anything else. Go ahead a flame away some more. I don't care and I won't take any more bait.
Priceless.

I provided you with the information you requested, and you come back touting the tremendous extent of your knowledge. What your project is, has no bearing on the subject. The very questions you asked demonstrate to all that you are completely bereft of any knowledge on the subject. Whatever you think you know is called into question, by what you have demonstrated that you don't know. I mean, come on. You thought a VSS was emissions related. You want to be taken seriously, then just admit you know jack shit. Hell, that is a reasonable starting point, if it's the truth. Popping off about all your expertise, and then asking those questions only makes you look like an idiot. Oh, and your buddy can flash a TBI system. Seriously? No he fucking cant. The only way to tune a TBI system is to replace the ECU with a flashable unit (EBL), or to actually burn the chips. In any case, assuming he has the knowledge and equipment for that, you have to provide the code for him to burn, and you have certainly demonstrated your expertise on that subject. I mean, all you have to consider is timing at various loads(go ahead and tell us which sensors will provide load information) and knock counts, fueling information at various throttle positions and loads, IAC Counts and how they affect idle quality, fuel enrichment for the intake you plan to use(probably the single most significant issue with swaps which are not OEM, get it wrong and it really fucks up drivability). Those are just the ones which jump out as immediate tuning hurdles, just to get it running enough to data log. Know anything about data logging? Didn't think so. So, without even trying, and at this point only to show you what a fucking ignoramus you are, I have provided you with a hell of a lot of direction in your research. It's a win-win. I get to fuck with you and you will use the information to educate yourself. You won't acknowledge it, but you will use it.



As for the idea that a forum is an exchange of information.... why is it the only people who bring that up are the ones looking for a handout and not the ones providing it? At least be original. As to plenty of folks looking to "discuss" things...... Where are they? Hell, the only other response on this subject was from MrWillys, who is constantly admonishing me on my presentation of information. His opinion in this case seems to mirror mine. He's at least as knowledgeable, if not more knowledgeable on a stock swap as I am. I lean more towards the tuning and performance mods. Not sure who else is likely to chime in.

All I can offer at this point is to wish you good luck on your endeavor. I'm sure that the information I provided will serve you well.

As to whether or not you respond further.... Do you really think I care? My guess is that you just won't be able to contain yourself, and you'll be back with more pathetic objections . I'm not the one looking for information. If I was, I would have searched for it, and if I did have to resort to asking someone, I would be here with my hat in my hand, and show a little humility. As I said, we don't know everything.
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Last edited by dahoyle; 02-25-2012 at 10:43 PM.
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Old 02-26-2012, 06:36 AM   #13 (permalink)
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In order to reprogram the 7747 you will have to send the ecm to www.moates.net to be modified to accept a newer EEPROM. You might try www.tbichips.com but the old 32k chips are becoming scarce. You will also have to learn how to assign a hex address to burn the 32k bin file to the appropriate place on the newer 512k chip. As long as you have good understanding of binary, octal! decimal, and hexidecimal numbering systems it will be a piece of cake.
With this said, wouldn't it just be easier to screw on a speed sensor to the transfercase, and put a switch on your shifter that cmpletes a ground when in park & neutral?
If you do choose the chip burning route you could then learn Datamaster, and datalogging for tuning, and modifying fuel maps. This really is the best way.
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Old 02-26-2012, 09:51 AM   #14 (permalink)
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In order to reprogram the 7747 you will have to send the ecm to www.moates.net to be modified to accept a newer EEPROM. You might try www.tbichips.com but the old 32k chips are becoming scarce. You will also have to learn how to assign a hex address to burn the 32k bin file to the appropriate place on the newer 512k chip. As long as you have good understanding of binary, octal! decimal, and hexidecimal numbering systems it will be a piece of cake.
With this said, wouldn't it just be easier to screw on a speed sensor to the transfercase, and put a switch on your shifter that cmpletes a ground when in park & neutral?
If you do choose the chip burning route you could then learn Datamaster, and datalogging for tuning, and modifying fuel maps. This really is the best way.
All very good information, but essentially useless to someone who doesn't even have a basic understanding of system components and what they do.

What we have here is some hick who removes components from his engine because they are "emissions junk". It doesn't matter if they are important to engine operation, if they are advantageous, or if they hurt performance in any way. All that matters is a misguided assumption that if it is emissions, it must be hurting performance. An individual who had an understanding of the basics, would not have even started this thread.
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Old 02-26-2012, 11:24 AM   #15 (permalink)
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http://www.wellsve.com/sft503/Counterpoint4_2.pdf


(following taken from another forum)

In normal driving and when you let off the gas wile rolling normally the IAC will is open all the way. This is so that if you come to an abrupt stop the engine will not stall. The VSS is telling the computer you are rolling so it keeps the IAC open.

If you dont have a VSS the computer thinks the vehichle is stationary. So as soon as you let off the gas the IAC closes.

This can couse 2 problems.
1. Coming to an abrupt stop you will stall the engine. The IAC will not have time to open in order to prevent the stall.

2. Slow stops when cold. (before closed loop)
When you let off the gas with no VSS the computer expects the idle to drop. When it doesnt it gets a bit confused. The EEC has no way of knowing that you are rolling in gear, it thinks the truck is stationary. So when the TPS shows Idle, and the engine doesnt slow down, the EEC trys to slow it down. First thing it does is close the IAC, then it starts playing with the timing and fuel tables. It is doing this to try to bring the engine down to idle. Now wyle you slowly decelerate it belives what it is doing is working, so it continues.

The problem is that at the point where the engine finaly pases idle, the IAC is closed, plus the timing and fuel tables are tweeced, and bonus, the engine is cold. The EEC just doesn't undo every thing fast enough, engine almost stalls.

Heres where it gets funny.
The EEC, gets the IAC open just before stall, the engine reves up, the EEC freaks out, like it was before, slams the IAC shut, and that + drag from the torque converter and a cold engine stalls the engine.

I dont have the VSS in my T-Case hooked up to my A9-L yet, thats how I know.

There are two things you can do to defeat this.
1. Set the base idle to 600 rpm and reset the TPS to read the correct voltage. And learn to live with it. This will all but cure the slow deceleration stall (exept when cold) but will have little affect on a panick stop.

2. Get a VSS and hook it up somewhere.
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Last edited by 83cj7skip; 02-26-2012 at 11:40 AM.
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Old 02-26-2012, 12:49 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Read just the first page


http://www.jagsthatrun.com/V8-chapte...ed-Sensors.pdf
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Old 02-26-2012, 09:39 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I dont have the vss hooked up and my junk runs fine (tho a little rich because Im too lazy to pull the injector off and clean/replace it due to its sticking. Tho I will be adding the crap that will make my check engine light go away.
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