tbi vs. vortec efi - Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum
 
Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum  

Go Back   Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum > Brand Specific Tech > Chevy
Notices

Reply
 
Share Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-09-2008, 09:40 PM   #1 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Member # 34044
Location: TEXAS
Posts: 560
tbi vs. vortec efi

want to swap my 350 to fuel injection and was wondering if a vortec setup was worth it over a tbi. tbi should be cheaper and less complicated. this is for a mild 350. either way i'd like to get vortec heads and a better cam at the same time. wouldn't mind a little room to grow in the future also. thanks alot
mark
__________________
'79 blazer on 4D's
srv8800 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2008, 09:59 PM   #2 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Grumpy_old_fart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Member # 20147
Location: Oakland Orygun
Posts: 6,573
Send a message via Yahoo to Grumpy_old_fart
Quote:
Originally Posted by srv8800;
want to swap my 350 to fuel injection and was wondering if a vortec setup was worth it over a tbi. tbi should be cheaper and less complicated. this is for a mild 350. either way i'd like to get vortec heads and a better cam at the same time. wouldn't mind a little room to grow in the future also. thanks alot
mark
go ahead.

tell us how it works out.
__________________
Empathy, apathy, sympathy.
Sympathy is between shit and syphilis in the dictionary.

Last edited by Grumpy_old_fart; 06-09-2008 at 09:59 PM.
Grumpy_old_fart is offline   Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Old 06-09-2008, 10:47 PM   #3 (permalink)
j5
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Member # 52063
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 204
for simplicity and performance I'd go TPI. There are vortec upgrades of the poppet injectors which eliminate clogging issues but TPI is just plain simpler.
__________________
88 YJ over budget
49 willys m100
j5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2008, 11:09 PM   #4 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Member # 80052
Location: St. James, MN
Posts: 1,963
Send a message via MSN to the_experience3006 Send a message via Yahoo to the_experience3006
I'm going to use a 454 TBI unit I got from a certain grumpy old fart. I did A LOT of research on this. I'll try and summarize for you...

1. The Vortec CSFI system is complicated and expensive
2. The stock Vortec system is barely adequate for a stock engine
3. There is not much room to grow the stock Vortec system
4. No one seems to know what the flowrate of the MPFI retrofit injectors is
5. The marine manifold conversion is expensive and looks somewhat involved
6. By the time you get the fuel rates up on a Vortec the stock intake plenum runs out of capacity for air because of its relatively low volume


TBI is not a perfect solution, but you can get a decent aftermarket intake with a quadrajet base and use either a cheap adapter plate, or better yet, the factory 454 adapter plate. Heck, you could even shell out the big bucks on the GM Performance Parts TBI Vortec intake. Maybe you could get really lucky and score the Vortec TBI intake off a van. No matter what you do you will most likely do it for less than trying to make the stock system work in any respect beyond stock.
__________________
[QUOTE=abig84;9192789]i swear id be gay if it wasn't for all the gay sex that's involved[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=TexasBlake;10305687]She's not that hot. I was just looking for a quick lay and she all wanted to like go on dates and shit.
[/QUOTE]
the_experience3006 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-09-2008, 11:27 PM   #5 (permalink)
be cool, baby
 
tacoma73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Member # 17896
Location: tooele UT
Posts: 3,040
Tell me more about this van intake, why, I've never heard of such a beast! But I do enjoy the junkyard scrounging.

I absolutely LOVE TBI. For my long-range, mixed-use purposes, the reliability and part-store/junkyard availability of parts can't be beat. I almost talked myself back into the 350 because there's more of them, but the fat valve covers make me horny, so it's 454 or nothing now.

I seriously doubt I'll run out of power with the very mild upgrades I have in mind, with the TBI setup. Everything else adds complexity where it is not needed, which is: in the engine compartment of a truck that will often be very far from diagnostic help. TBI works.
__________________
Utah 4-Wheel Drive Association---Blue Ribbon Coalition---USA-ALL---Tread Lightly
tacoma73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2008, 12:37 AM   #6 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Member # 80052
Location: St. James, MN
Posts: 1,963
Send a message via MSN to the_experience3006 Send a message via Yahoo to the_experience3006
Quote:
Originally Posted by tacoma73 View Post
Tell me more about this van intake, why, I've never heard of such a beast! But I do enjoy the junkyard scrounging.
Legend has it that in 1996 a great beast existed. It took the form of the Chevy G3500 van with an 8500 lbs GVWR and a 4L80E. This mythical creature is rumored to have derive its power from an L31 Vortec 350...but this was no ordinary 350...this 350 fed its insatiable appetite for fuel and air through a throttle body injection set up meaning that there was, in some way, a factory TBI-Vortec intake setup, be it a quadrajet pattern with an adapter of some type or a true 3 bolt TBI set up.

I have never been able to substantiate the existence of this arrangement. I cannot even find listings for it in the parts catalogs. But I truly believe it is out there somewhere. Afterall, Fel-Pro doesn't list a master gasket set for the CSFI Vortec engines and they exist. Google searches have led me only to pictures of third gen Camaros with Vortec heads swapped onto factory TBI motors.

I have enlisted a crack team of believers to help me in my quest...

__________________
[QUOTE=abig84;9192789]i swear id be gay if it wasn't for all the gay sex that's involved[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=TexasBlake;10305687]She's not that hot. I was just looking for a quick lay and she all wanted to like go on dates and shit.
[/QUOTE]
the_experience3006 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2008, 05:14 AM   #7 (permalink)
Rock God
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Member # 343
Location: Conway, MA US
Posts: 2,308
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_experience3006 View Post
This mythical creature is rumored to have derive its power from an L31 Vortec 350...
I thought all the L31's were Vortec (CPI) fuel injected starting in 1996. I don't think there were any factory TB injected L31's (L31 factory code for 350ci Vortec headed/CPI motors)....?? Hmm?

Ahhh, I stand corrected, read down to the 5700 (5.7)
section.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vortec

They do mention (as stated) an L31 TBI......Hmm, the mythical beast must have existed...and may still live on to this day.....some where.

Last edited by cj8scrambld; 06-10-2008 at 05:22 AM.
cj8scrambld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2008, 07:37 AM   #8 (permalink)
be cool, baby
 
tacoma73's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Member # 17896
Location: tooele UT
Posts: 3,040
Tantalizing. I must have one, if for no other reason than to prove they exist.
__________________
Utah 4-Wheel Drive Association---Blue Ribbon Coalition---USA-ALL---Tread Lightly
tacoma73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2008, 08:00 AM   #9 (permalink)
Registered User
 
b454rat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Member # 16536
Location: Binghamton, NY
Posts: 2,453
Ah man I think there was one of those in a junkyard here couple months ago!!! Went looking around at stupid shit, peaked inside a van, looked at the motor, thought about taking the heads, (it was a 96) but then after a closer look it had TBI on it. I don't remember if I looked at the head/intake bolts or not.....

I've had alot of TBIs, bunch of small blocks and 1 big block, and 1 Vortec 454. All of the TBIs I had were OK save for my 92 Blazer, thing is a DOG. Had a killer TBI406 in my old truck, and the 454TBI was a monster as well. I had a 97 and it was different to drive, needed more "pedal" to go, whereas the same pedal in a TBI would put you back in the seat.

I'm staying with TBI. It's simple, cheap, easy to get parts for, and can build them up more than a Vortec I think. Gonna be building 2 400s, at least 1 with Vortecs.

Inless your building a stock motor, don't run the GM TBI/Vortec intake, they don't flow very well.

Anymore info on this TBI/Vortec intake??
b454rat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2008, 12:15 PM   #10 (permalink)
Rock God
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Member # 343
Location: Conway, MA US
Posts: 2,308
b454rat,
Can you tell me more about your 406 TBI? I was thinking about doing a low rpm tow motor.....swapping out my 350TBI in my 1994 K Blazer....essentially putting a 406 under the mostly stock stuff......possibly using mild upgrades such as one would do for a 350....but with a 406 short block......again, low rpm TQ is my goal....3500 rpm and below.
cj8scrambld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2008, 02:09 PM   #11 (permalink)
Registered User
 
b454rat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Member # 16536
Location: Binghamton, NY
Posts: 2,453
I used ALL the stock stuff off a 90 GMC. Basically just swapped it out for a 406. Used the stock style TBI heads, just plane rebuilds. I used the stock crank, but used 350 5.7" rods, KB pistons, IIRC was 9.8:1 comp. Comp Cams Xtrme Energy 268 cam, headers, 3" y-pipe into a Flow w/ dual 2 1/2" pipes out the back.

The truck ran awesome. Would idle all day long, (sweet idle at that!) would smolder the tires at a standstill, but the tranny was getting bad, so didn't do that too much. With that motor, 700r tranny, killer 3.08 gears and 28" tall tires, got around 20 mpg. It had torque all over, down low, midrange, high, would pull in any gear and would not downshift on hills. There are some steap ones on I-81 north in PA.

I just picked up a 406 block, just need to get it tanked and bearing installed. Found a crank, just need to get it and start putting it togther. One of these 400s that I have is going in a 2wd S-10 Blazer, that's gonna be fun....
b454rat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2008, 03:07 PM   #12 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Member # 34044
Location: TEXAS
Posts: 560
sounds like i'm putting tbi ontop of vortec heads with an edelbrock intake manifold and an adapter plate. anybody see any probles with this setup? headers? dist? sugest an inline fuel pump? anything i should have a machine shop do to the heads before install? thanks alot
mark
__________________
'79 blazer on 4D's
srv8800 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2008, 03:19 PM   #13 (permalink)
Vortec Scout II
 
Bo185's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Member # 48545
Location: Arkansas / "The Stan"
Posts: 3,857
Blog Entries: 1
One if these http://store.summitracing.com/egnsea...08748&D=308748
Plus these http://www.sdparts.com/product/12480...inderHead.aspx plus pick you cam
__________________
'73 Scout II Vortec 6.0L 4L65e np241
'73 1210 Travelette SV392, T-34, 60/14bff 4.56's 35's
'01 VW Beetle TDI-50mpg or better!

GM Gen III/IV V8 swap info

TECH: Gen III/IV "LS motor" to Early GM Auto Trans
Bo185 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2008, 03:52 PM   #14 (permalink)
Registered User
 
kegwilliams's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Member # 16921
Location: Richland, Washington
Posts: 106
vortec/tbi

like this one
Attached Images
 
kegwilliams is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2008, 04:01 PM   #15 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Member # 49108
Location: Texas
Posts: 468
Ive got a 93 and a 95 TBI , simple , parts are cheap if it ever breaks. My 93 still has the origional 2 injectors in it 230K miles. You can get a prom programmer from craig moates for $85.00 and 50 for a chip adapter , $5 for blank flash reprogrammable chips. $30 for tunerpro software and you can edit your fuel, timing, convertor lockup, and shiftpoints and a bunch of other crap on the electronic trans trucks.
suprdave737 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-10-2008, 04:02 PM   #16 (permalink)
Rock God
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Member # 343
Location: Conway, MA US
Posts: 2,308
Quote:
Originally Posted by b454rat View Post
I used ALL the stock stuff off a 90 GMC. Basically just swapped it out for a 406. Used the stock style TBI heads, just plane rebuilds. I used the stock crank, but used 350 5.7" rods, KB pistons, IIRC was 9.8:1 comp. Comp Cams Xtrme Energy 268 cam, headers, 3" y-pipe into a Flow w/ dual 2 1/2" pipes out the back.

The truck ran awesome. Would idle all day long, (sweet idle at that!) would smolder the tires at a standstill, but the tranny was getting bad, so didn't do that too much. With that motor, 700r tranny, killer 3.08 gears and 28" tall tires, got around 20 mpg. It had torque all over, down low, midrange, high, would pull in any gear and would not downshift on hills. There are some steap ones on I-81 north in PA.....
Interesting, exactly what I had in mind. I was kind of hoping the mileage would improve some due to the of extra TQ 406 can make. I've got 3.73's with stock size LT265/75/16.....it'll probably be more gear that the 400 would need. Sounds sweet....Thanks!
cj8scrambld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2008, 10:48 AM   #17 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Member # 80052
Location: St. James, MN
Posts: 1,963
Send a message via MSN to the_experience3006 Send a message via Yahoo to the_experience3006
Quote:
Originally Posted by kegwilliams View Post
like this one
That would appear to be the GMPP intake to me, but is it possible that that is the mythical creature?


I think going TBI was the right decision. There are other systems out there that might offer better throttle response or more power, but you can't beat the all out simplicity of the TBI or the parts availability. I mean lets face it...you can damn near buy sensors for a Chevy TBI at 7-Eleven and can get most for a single picture of Mr. Jackson. The ironic thing is...you probably won't need to get many replacement parts.
__________________
[QUOTE=abig84;9192789]i swear id be gay if it wasn't for all the gay sex that's involved[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=TexasBlake;10305687]She's not that hot. I was just looking for a quick lay and she all wanted to like go on dates and shit.
[/QUOTE]
the_experience3006 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2008, 02:19 PM   #18 (permalink)
j5
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Member # 52063
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_experience3006 View Post
Legend has it that in 1996 a great beast existed. It took the form of the Chevy G3500 van with an 8500 lbs GVWR and a 4L80E. This mythical creature is rumored to have derive its power from an L31 Vortec 350...but this was no ordinary 350...this 350 fed its insatiable appetite for fuel and air through a throttle body injection set up meaning that there was, in some way, a factory TBI-Vortec intake setup, be it a quadrajet pattern with an adapter of some type or a true 3 bolt TBI set up.

I have never been able to substantiate the existence of this arrangement. I cannot even find listings for it in the parts catalogs. But I truly believe it is out there somewhere. Afterall, Fel-Pro doesn't list a master gasket set for the CSFI Vortec engines and they exist. Google searches have led me only to pictures of third gen Camaros with Vortec heads swapped onto factory TBI motors.

I have enlisted a crack team of believers to help me in my quest...

Your crack team should have called GM. They did indeed do a 96 G3500 with a 4l80E and 5.7. It had head # 12516852 on it which was used from 87-95. Vortec heads were used 96 and later. So this "beast" was simply a standard TBI with a 3500 drivetrain. Common practice for GM. From 2000-2002 they were still using the 5.7's in the Express vans even though the pick-ups had the 5.3's and 6.0's.
__________________
88 YJ over budget
49 willys m100
j5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2008, 02:29 PM   #19 (permalink)
j5
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Member # 52063
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_experience3006 View Post
I'm going to use a 454 TBI unit I got from a certain grumpy old fart. I did A LOT of research on this. I'll try and summarize for you...

1. The Vortec CSFI system is complicated and expensive
2. The stock Vortec system is barely adequate for a stock engine
3. There is not much room to grow the stock Vortec system
4. No one seems to know what the flowrate of the MPFI retrofit injectors is
5. The marine manifold conversion is expensive and looks somewhat involved
6. By the time you get the fuel rates up on a Vortec the stock intake plenum runs out of capacity for air because of its relatively low volume
.
1. CSFI isn't that complicated but you will have to do some reading. Tuned port (TPI) and TBI are much simpler. You'll get better fuel usage out of CSFI though.
2. The stock vortec system according to Chevy can run a 340 HP and 435 ft. lbs. They list the HT383E as a drop in replacement for the 5.7 CSFI's.
3. True when you're getting into big HP applications you do need to make some changes like an intake/injector swap such as the Marine Manifold you mention in line 5 which will run you 80 bucks for the computer and 500-700 for the intake plus your labor to install. You'll also need to buy a tune for 150 or so.
4. 19lbs.
5. - see 3
6. The only way to get the fuel rates up on the stock plenium would be to increase fuel pressure since there are only the poppets and the 19 lb. replacement mini injectors - both of which will push a torquey 383. That same 383 you can run to the 5250 RPM cut-off so I'm not sure why you'd worry about running out of air.
__________________
88 YJ over budget
49 willys m100
j5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2008, 02:32 PM   #20 (permalink)
j5
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Member # 52063
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 204
My first google search of "TBI vs. TPI torque ratings" gave me this thread:

http://www.thirdgen.org/techboard/te...bi-vs-tpi.html

It's an interesting read from users of both.
__________________
88 YJ over budget
49 willys m100
j5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2008, 02:08 PM   #21 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Member # 34044
Location: TEXAS
Posts: 560
well, i was flippin through craigslist and found a tpi setup complete with ecu and harness off an '88 camaro for $150. problem is it won't fit my heads. i can either forget i ever saw this and put a tbi system ontop of my vortec heads or use the tpi with a $480 lower manifold. option #3 is sell the vortec heads, buy alum heads that will take the tpi. from reading around, it looks like tpi is alot better. ideas? thanks
__________________
'79 blazer on 4D's
srv8800 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2008, 04:53 PM   #22 (permalink)
j5
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Member # 52063
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by srv8800 View Post
well, i was flippin through craigslist and found a tpi setup complete with ecu and harness off an '88 camaro for $150. problem is it won't fit my heads. i can either forget i ever saw this and put a tbi system ontop of my vortec heads or use the tpi with a $480 lower manifold. option #3 is sell the vortec heads, buy alum heads that will take the tpi. from reading around, it looks like tpi is alot better. ideas? thanks
How high-end are you wanting to rev? Low end flow shouldn't be such a worry I wouldn't think. Why not get a basic set of non-vortec heads and buy the camaro TPI? Those heads should be cheap. You can always upgrade or port them. I'd keep reading on TPI if you're thinking about it because there are better TPI's to use than others and I can't remember which are prefered (ie. 5.7 vs 5.0). Certain years are prefered. I'd start searching some camaro/firebird sites and do some reading.
__________________
88 YJ over budget
49 willys m100
j5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2008, 10:39 AM   #23 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Member # 34044
Location: TEXAS
Posts: 560
well, i already have a good set of vortec heads that i'd like to use. is tpi that much better than tbi that i should sell them and get some regular sbc heads to run it. how much top end can i expect with a torque motor? 5,500 would be nice.
__________________
'79 blazer on 4D's

Last edited by srv8800; 06-14-2008 at 10:41 AM.
srv8800 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2008, 07:27 PM   #24 (permalink)
j5
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Member # 52063
Location: Denver, Colorado
Posts: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by srv8800 View Post
well, i already have a good set of vortec heads that i'd like to use. is tpi that much better than tbi that i should sell them and get some regular sbc heads to run it. how much top end can i expect with a torque motor? 5,500 would be nice.
So use the vortec heads and go TBI. You've read the articles. Either will work fine but there are advantages to both. Less parts and more simplicity with the TBI and better fuel management and power with the TPI. Personally if it were me I'd do this intake on a the vortec:
http://www.holley.com/9901-107.asp
But I'm at an advantage because it's already sitting in my garage.
__________________
88 YJ over budget
49 willys m100
j5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2008, 07:47 PM   #25 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Member # 80052
Location: St. James, MN
Posts: 1,963
Send a message via MSN to the_experience3006 Send a message via Yahoo to the_experience3006
Quote:
Originally Posted by j5 View Post
1. CSFI isn't that complicated but you will have to do some reading. Tuned port (TPI) and TBI are much simpler. You'll get better fuel usage out of CSFI though.

I understand it isn't that complex, but it certainly is more complex and failure prone than TBI, TPI, or even a standard port injection system. The fact that conversion kits exist to to run non-poppet port injectors is proof enough of this. Sequential injection is going to be more fuel efficient. There's no denying that. But is that really a big advantage on a wheeling rig?

2. The stock vortec system according to Chevy can run a 340 HP and 435 ft. lbs. They list the HT383E as a drop in replacement for the 5.7 CSFI's.

Again, I know they offered it and said it was a drop in. There are plenty of people that have adapted the CSFI to many different configurations and do quite well at it, but all of them are a bit on edge in terms of fueling and general screwing around

3. True when you're getting into big HP applications you do need to make some changes like an intake/injector swap such as the Marine Manifold you mention in line 5 which will run you 80 bucks for the computer and 500-700 for the intake plus your labor to install. You'll also need to buy a tune for 150 or so.

Yep.

4. 19lbs.

Stepping up the fuel pressure could get you into the low 20's, but injectors not closing properly becomes an issue much higher than stock on the pressure. I would even wonder about pulsewidth accuracy (slow closing times) on the edge, even if the injectors do close.

5. - see 3

Yep again

6. The only way to get the fuel rates up on the stock plenium would be to increase fuel pressure since there are only the poppets and the 19 lb. replacement mini injectors - both of which will push a torquey 383. That same 383 you can run to the 5250 RPM cut-off so I'm not sure why you'd worry about running out of air.

I've heard both ways from people. It's important to remember that the HT383 was an engineered package. When you start building your own engine you may or may not have a combination of parts that will work well with the CSFI. Vortec heads will also flow pretty well above the 5250 RPM cutoff, especially when modified to run more cam. There is also no reason a decent 350 or 383 couldn't spin above 5250. I'm not saying you will likely do that often, but it would be good to know you're not on edge of running out of air.
The stock CSFI system is just fine for what it is, but I just don't see it as being that modification friendly. You are free to disagree with me on that. I'm not the least bit offended. For me it comes down to how much screwing around I want to do. The O.P. was looking for opinions on a conversion to EFI. I'd HAPPILY sell him my stock upper and lower plenums along with a factory injector setup. I chose, instead, to run an aftermarket aluminum quadrajet intake with a 454 TBI unit with the factory adapter wedged between. Since I'm controlling it with an aftermarket computer I saw more room to grow with that setup. It also proved to be cheaper and easier with more easily sourced parts. To each his own.
__________________
[QUOTE=abig84;9192789]i swear id be gay if it wasn't for all the gay sex that's involved[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=TexasBlake;10305687]She's not that hot. I was just looking for a quick lay and she all wanted to like go on dates and shit.
[/QUOTE]
the_experience3006 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:06 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.