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Old 04-12-2009, 11:03 PM   #1 (permalink)
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School Me: 350 Build

Searched and couldn't find any relevant threads to research so here I go.

I recently was given a 4 bolt main 350 and plan to use it on my race truck. The truck is a 89 Toyota that I plan on racing in MDR 1450/ Score Sportmans class. I had originally picked up a Toyota 3.4 5vz engine to use but I have come the conclusion I need more power so enter the 350.

I am shooting for 450 hp +/- 50 horse power but not really sure if it possible or even how to achieve it. I have built several Toyota engines so the actual mechanical parts don't worry me. I am more looking for advice on how to achieve this goal. My budget is roughly $3000 dollars including machine work.

The engine needs to be NA per the rules I am shooting for so no power adders. Needs to be bullet proof as it will be wide open for long periods of time. Needs to be as light as possible so I guess that means aluminum heads and intake, right? Needs to run on 91 octane pump gas. Whats your take on the rotating assemblies and complete top ends that summit sells?

Well lets hear it PBB's Chevy section, school me.
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Old 04-12-2009, 11:06 PM   #2 (permalink)
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...and for reference here is the truck the engine will be going into.



and my other project that will be receiving the 3.4.

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Old 04-13-2009, 05:49 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Does the block need any work like boreing and honeing etc. If so i would bore it .30 over if aloud. It would be easier if we knew the rules
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Old 04-13-2009, 08:16 AM   #4 (permalink)
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You talking electronic fuel injection, such as the LT1, or are you talking carburated?
My book entitled Small-Block Chevy Performance, by Dave Emanual, has a set of dyno numbers for various combinations.
One set, for a modified 350, has max horsepower of 403 at 6500rpm, and torque of 392ftlbs at 4000rpm.
Set up included 492 head castings (I understand the newer "vortec" heads are better) with 2.02 intakes and 1.60 exhaust, 64cc combustion chambers,11:1 compression (91 octane??), Holley intake running a Holley750. Cam was Comp Cams Magnum 292H, with a lift of .501.
Based on this, 400 horse is doable, if you can run 91 octane with 11:1 compression.
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Old 04-13-2009, 09:20 AM   #5 (permalink)
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do you have a limit as to cubic inches? for example, making your 350 a 383 stroker?

if you can do that, id go .030 over & geta reasonable priced 383 stroker kit, decent heads, get your crank knife edged and balanced, gasket match and polish intake, not sure what exact HP you wiould get, but i went to school with afew guys that build a close setup and would run high rpm's all day long
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Old 04-13-2009, 09:39 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I'm new to the pirate sceen but have tonns of experience with muscle cars & motors, hopefully this helps.

450hp is achievable but your budget could be hard to handle.

If rules permit, I would consider swapping out the crank for a "eagle" 383 stroker crank and bore 30 over but if not, stick with stock. Either way you should balance with the rotating assembly and install all new bearings, meiling high volume oil pump & double roller timing chain/gears to ensure longevity of the motor under abuse. I don't need to state the obvous regarding "tank, magnaflux, hone or bore, deck etc. (all based on your block condition & will add up to $ which is where I comment "your budget could be hard to handle") rebuild the bottome end with a good set of flat top pistons & moly rings with around 10:1 compression.

If you can find old "camel Hump" heads as refered to above, (search hot rod websites for more info #461, 462's the larger 2.02/1.60 valves will gain you more hp) I would use them. The vortec heads are great, will produce the power you are looking for and readily available in local junk yards BUT they do require a lot of machine work to make the claimed HP you have heard about.. on top of this you will require a "vortec intake" and "vortec" valve covers (centerbolt) adding to your $$.

From experience, I would consider looking for the best deal on a set of edelbrock aluminum heads, either performer RPM or victor Jr... I would use a performer "air gap" intake, 1.6 roller rockers & comp XE268 or 272 cam. (edelbrock also had good cam packages, maybe could find a complete edelbrock set up for package price) this set up will save you time, weight & you know what you got! no buying heads to find out they are cracked or need a ton of work.

try to save money by re-using all stock connecting rods, covers, pan, harmonic balancer etc.

A 1" open (for top end hp) carbeurator spacer & good cold air intake system w. K&N filter will gain you a few hp.

To keep $$ down I would search swap meets or ebay for a
1. holley 4150 mechanical secondaries double pumper, 750cfm & rebuild it.
2. headers
3. HEI distributor
4. MSD 6AL ignition box

search around for pricing but maybe you could sell your block & parts & purchase a CRATE engine already built?

My 2 cents, right or wrong I hope it helps.
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Old 04-13-2009, 09:42 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Brooks is right, port & polish, port match will gain you unfound HP!

If you have money left over (not likely) but consider baffle screen in oil pan.
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Old 04-13-2009, 11:30 AM   #8 (permalink)
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for 3k get a used ls1,cam,custom comp tune and some bolt ons
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Old 04-13-2009, 12:07 PM   #9 (permalink)
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that is a tight budget
a set of Dart Pro1 heads and machine work puts you near the edge of the budget so you will be shopping used
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Old 04-13-2009, 01:02 PM   #10 (permalink)
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The general rule is that aluminum heads will allow a full point higher compression than iron heads due to the better cooling effect of aluminum. Running 11-1 on 91 with iron heads wide open for long distances is probably not going to have a good outcome unless you back the timing off. Is the 91 octane a rule required by rules or price? Race fuel is expensive so I understand that. Currently going for $6.50 a gal.
Another option is e-85. Several of the local circle track drivers are switching over just for the cost. On the dyno going from 112 or 114 race fuel to e85 they make within 5 HP + or - depending on the car but for under $3 a gal and it runs cooler. Generally they say for iron heads circle track use on e85 that 12-1 is just fine. For what your doing 12 or even 13-1 with e85 and aluminum heads should work. Its not a straight swap though. You need to run the right lines and tune the carb but the HP potential is there.

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Old 04-13-2009, 05:23 PM   #11 (permalink)
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450 hp for $3000? You're better off buying your ol'lady a bigger diamond, cause you get more wood that way.
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Old 04-13-2009, 09:24 PM   #12 (permalink)
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you say the mechanical part is fine for oyu, how much mechanical? can you gasket match or port&polish yourself? because anything that saves you $100 bucks means you can spend $100 somewher else, give us a lil info on what you can do and that will help on pricing your build
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Old 04-13-2009, 10:43 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leyland View Post
Brooks is right, port & polish, port match will gain you unfound HP!
x2 on the port & polish, take your time.....
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Old 04-14-2009, 08:15 AM   #14 (permalink)
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A 383 stroker isnt really a great way to go for an engine built on a budget and needing to turn high RPM for long duration. It can be done, but isnt cheap!

I run a balanced/blueprinted .30 over 350 with old cast dart 2 heads.. 2.02 1.60 valves and a mild cam with roler rockers and stud girdles on as much valve spring as I could get at the time. Ported and polished, cant remember the chamber size, and Eldelbrock intake snorting down everything a 750 mechanical holley produce. Shes turning almost REALLY close to 11000 RPS at the end of the 1/4 mile at 124 in 10.9. EASILY the hardest pulling normally asperated small block Ive even seen on pump gas.

3 key points that HAVE to be met..
1. BALANCE BALANCE BALANCE .
2. Oil pan baffles.. cavitation kills horsepower, as well as the oils ability to efectivly lubricate
3. Airflow.. 2.20 - 1.60 valves are a must, a good port and polish job will do amazing things, and chamber matching keeps the fire balanced.

Can it be done for under $3000??? I think it can, but would require constant rebuilds to maintain the lower end and prevent the thing from self destruction. One .05" stretched rod may do Ok on the freeway, but high RPMs make that a short fuse on an expersive bomb.
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Old 04-14-2009, 10:08 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chevyforlife502 View Post
Does the block need any work like boreing and honeing etc. If so i would bore it .30 over if aloud. It would be easier if we knew the rules
Plan on a full rebuild with what ever machine work the block needs to get back to spec.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba_Jeep View Post
You talking electronic fuel injection, such as the LT1, or are you talking carburated?
My book entitled Small-Block Chevy Performance, by Dave Emanual, has a set of dyno numbers for various combinations.
One set, for a modified 350, has max horsepower of 403 at 6500rpm, and torque of 392ftlbs at 4000rpm.
Set up included 492 head castings (I understand the newer "vortec" heads are better) with 2.02 intakes and 1.60 exhaust, 64cc combustion chambers,11:1 compression (91 octane??), Holley intake running a Holley750. Cam was Comp Cams Magnum 292H, with a lift of .501.
Based on this, 400 horse is doable, if you can run 91 octane with 11:1 compression.
The plan is carb'd for simplicity. Ill have to check those specs out, thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brooks294x4 View Post
do you have a limit as to cubic inches? for example, making your 350 a 383 stroker?

if you can do that, id go .030 over & geta reasonable priced 383 stroker kit, decent heads, get your crank knife edged and balanced, gasket match and polish intake, not sure what exact HP you wiould get, but i went to school with afew guys that build a close setup and would run high rpm's all day long
No limit on displacement just has to be NA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leyland View Post
I'm new to the pirate sceen but have tonns of experience with muscle cars & motors, hopefully this helps.

450hp is achievable but your budget could be hard to handle.

If rules permit, I would consider swapping out the crank for a "eagle" 383 stroker crank and bore 30 over but if not, stick with stock. Either way you should balance with the rotating assembly and install all new bearings, meiling high volume oil pump & double roller timing chain/gears to ensure longevity of the motor under abuse. I don't need to state the obvous regarding "tank, magnaflux, hone or bore, deck etc. (all based on your block condition & will add up to $ which is where I comment "your budget could be hard to handle") rebuild the bottome end with a good set of flat top pistons & moly rings with around 10:1 compression.

If you can find old "camel Hump" heads as refered to above, (search hot rod websites for more info #461, 462's the larger 2.02/1.60 valves will gain you more hp) I would use them. The vortec heads are great, will produce the power you are looking for and readily available in local junk yards BUT they do require a lot of machine work to make the claimed HP you have heard about.. on top of this you will require a "vortec intake" and "vortec" valve covers (centerbolt) adding to your $$.

From experience, I would consider looking for the best deal on a set of edelbrock aluminum heads, either performer RPM or victor Jr... I would use a performer "air gap" intake, 1.6 roller rockers & comp XE268 or 272 cam. (edelbrock also had good cam packages, maybe could find a complete edelbrock set up for package price) this set up will save you time, weight & you know what you got! no buying heads to find out they are cracked or need a ton of work.

try to save money by re-using all stock connecting rods, covers, pan, harmonic balancer etc.

A 1" open (for top end hp) carbeurator spacer & good cold air intake system w. K&N filter will gain you a few hp.

To keep $$ down I would search swap meets or ebay for a
1. holley 4150 mechanical secondaries double pumper, 750cfm & rebuild it.
2. headers
3. HEI distributor
4. MSD 6AL ignition box

search around for pricing but maybe you could sell your block & parts & purchase a CRATE engine already built?

My 2 cents, right or wrong I hope it helps.
Thanks, this is exactly what I was looking for. I haven't dropped the block off at the machine shop yet but am guess it should be around 500 for the basic machine work. I was planning on waiting to drop it off once I get parts lined up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brooks294x4 View Post
you say the mechanical part is fine for oyu, how much mechanical? can you gasket match or port&polish yourself? because anything that saves you $100 bucks means you can spend $100 somewher else, give us a lil info on what you can do and that will help on pricing your build
I have more than the basic gasket match but have had friends who have done the whole port and polish thing, since that is how I usually learn I will ask for help from them when it comes time.

Thanks for your guys help. Honestly I had no idea what 3k could realistically buy me so I appreciate your input. I am just trying to get out of the world of big HP engines consisting of 150 HP. Keep the info coming.
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Old 04-14-2009, 07:24 PM   #16 (permalink)
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stay away from the Melling oil pumps for a serious application where you want to pump lots of pressure or volume. the gears are powdered metal, and will split.

buy a good oil pump. a real good one. if a cam is the brain, and the crank the backbone, the oil pump would be the heart. Mellings age old trick was to use a standard big block pump and call it a high volume small block pump. just dont use Melling.

get rid of the stock oil filter adapter and buy one that does not have the bypass. be sure to buy an oil filter that is not equipped with a bypass, too like a WIX 51061R.



get a louvered windage tray, not a screen.

get a pan that has trapdoors, but not 428 of em.

figure out a way to hold 8 quarts and keep it off the rotating assembly.

clean all the casting flash off the block inside so oil will drain back better.

drill a .030 oil hole in the passenger side front cam oil galley plug to lube the timing chain and cam sprocket.

deck the block to 0.005, and get a .039 head gasket. that will get your quench up.

use vortec heads, like a 906 casting. 64 cc chambers.... and modern.

dont try finding a set of 40 year old camel hump castings and then spending 800 bucks getting hardened seats, valves, valve job, port work done. you will be miles ahead already. sure, you have to have a set of studs installed, but if you own a tap, you can tap the holes yourself... and if you own a drill press, you can drill them yourself. to set the seat and installed height on the springs, take them to a shop, it wont cost you an arm and a leg.

you can buy used parts off ebay, cheap. start shopping there. just dont buy with eyeball lust. do research before bidding.

you can get a hydraulic roller cam that will give you plenty of compression and let you use pump gas. you might do some research into the effects of quench, how to use overlap as a tool to fix too much compression, things like that.
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Old 04-14-2009, 08:14 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Grumpy... Nice post! Thanks for the heads up on the Melling pumps, any suggestions on pumps mfr's?

I found my camel humps for cheap, Corvette fella built them for an upgrade only to find the #'s matching heads & block for his vette & never turned back, $1200 into the heads, I picked up the whole 327 motor under $1000 with spare forged crank, green rods, original finned aluminum covers & tons of other parts... Just kept asking around.

Cheers
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Old 04-14-2009, 08:51 PM   #18 (permalink)
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heres a pump without the powdered metal gears

heres a link to more info....

fwiw, GM pumps have steel gears, at least did. you can determine if they do or not by looking at the hob marks, or by marking the gear with a magic marker. if the magic marker ink fades, its powdered metal, if it shines, its billet.
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