SAS question

[Biorick78]

I am doing a SAS on my 2003 GMC 2500HD with a Dana 60 and leaf springs it is a DD/ tow rig.

I noticed alot of the high dollar kits talk about using Dodge axles and alot of people on pirate talk about using old 78/79 ford axles.

What are the pro's and cons?

I found a 1995 Ford dana 60 DWR with springs maybe I could use for $600
( I see very little Doge dana 60's for sale)

I also noticed nobody sells new or after market Hubs for a Ford Dana 60 Why?
( so I can convert to SRW)

I already own 2 trucks with Chevy Dana 60's I don't know much about Ford & Dodge

Thanks Rick

[gmcxt]

Buy the ball joint 60 for $600 Or take your rear axle and make a steering AAM 11.5 hybrid. Youllspend twice as much and have 3 times the brag factor.

post pics too

[CowboyKyle]

The kits you see that use the Dodge axle, use the 2003+ Dodge AAM front.

Once the aftermaket catches up, the Ford HP60 will have its first real competition in years.

The AAM front is also high pinion, 9.25" ring gear, 33 spline axle hub to hub. The reason they use this axle in the high end kits, is because the brakes/ABS sensors are all 100% plug and play with GM OE stuff.

[Biorick78]

Ok so those kits are based on new available products on Dodge trucks (that is why there pricey) and the old school way is the ford Dana 60

I see GMCXT is making fun of the 95 axle I guess it has ball jionts instead of king pins? (which I believe aren't as good) (the chevy ones I have are old style)

Anybody know the cut off date for king pin axles

also would it be worth taking a chevy Dana 60 and reversing the axle tubes to make a drivers side drop (I assume parts would be cheeper in the long run)

[gmcxt]

Im not makeing fun...I said buy it. But in true pirate fashion wouldnt you rather have an extra 2".....


on your ring gear, from a hybrid AAM?

post pics

[GMCTruxrule]

The advantage to kingpin axles is that they wont blow apart if an axle shaft or u joint lets go, a balljoint axle could have the ball joints forced out.

Now, if this is more DD/towrig like you say, a balljoint axle will work fine.

Ford used kingpins 60s from 78 all the way thru 92.

92 and after got switched over to balljoint. I wouldn't waste my time trying to retube a GM 60 for what you are trying to get. I would just search for a Ford drivers side drop 60.

[Biorick78]

Ok I think you guys set me straight There is another guy selling a 85 ford dana 60 local for $1000 all ready set up SRW seems like it's worth the extra few bucks.

Now for educational purposes how come you can by chevy/dodge hubs brand new and I think even aftermarket but nowhere on the internet can I find Ford hubs unless there used (sounds like limited supply)

[6.2Blazer]

The reason for the newer Dodge AAM front axles is because of the front wheel speed sensors, i.e. keep ABS and whatever electrical nannies the truck has. It would likely require a decent amount of fabrication to come up with wheel speed sensors on any other axle.

Besides ABS, I'm not sure what, if any, issues losing the wheel speed sensors would cause (besides the ABS lights and such being on).

[AndyL29]

When using the dodge aam 9.25 front for SAS duties, remember the cost to convert to manual locking hubs. Its thousands. Otherwise everything is always spinning on this axle.

[By-Tor]

I would try my best to find a '78-'79 Ford Dana 60 because the 32" or so spacing between the spring perches works out much better than 36" spacing of the late 80's thru 90's Dana 60's. With the 78-79 axle you can inboard the shackle allowing you to keep the overall suspension lower and almost seems like it should have been a factory option. You would have to run the shackle under the frame if you use the newer axle and that would add about 7-8 inches of lift with flat springs and some huge drop hangers on the front of the frame.

I've done this conversion on my 2002 GMC 2500HD and I did all the fab work myself. No kit was used.

Check out my build thread http://www.gmfullsize.com/forum/showthread.php?t=92822 to see what I'm talking about. Feel free to ask any questions or let me know if you need some more detailed pics.

[CowboyKyle]

Originally Posted by GMCTruxrule

The advantage to kingpin axles is that they wont blow apart if an axle shaft or u joint lets go, a balljoint axle could have the ball joints forced out.

I've not seen or heard of this happening on D60s. Got pics? On D44s, YES. Also, king pin knuckles NEVER break do they?

Originally Posted by AndyL29

When using the dodge aam 9.25 front for SAS duties, remember the cost to convert to manual locking hubs. Its thousands. Otherwise everything is always spinning on this axle.

As opposed to drive flanges on a D60?

[GMCTruxrule]

Seen a Dana 44 blow apart, never seen a Dana 60, heard of it from various members on here. Just passing on what I know....

[Biorick78]

Originally Posted by By-Tor

I would try my best to find a '78-'79 Ford Dana 60 because the 32" or so spacing between the spring perches works out much better than 36" spacing of the late 80's thru 90's Dana 60's. With the 78-79 axle you can inboard the shackle allowing you to keep the overall suspension lower and almost seems like it should have been a factory option. You would have to run the shackle under the frame if you use the newer axle and that would add about 7-8 inches of lift with flat springs and some huge drop hangers on the front of the frame.

I've done this conversion on my 2002 GMC 2500HD and I did all the fab work myself. No kit was used.

Check out my build thread http://www.gmfullsize.com/forum/showthread.php?t=92822 to see what I'm talking about. Feel free to ask any questions or let me know if you need some more detailed pics.

Nice Job!!

It looks like you use old style rear GM shackles, great pic's that helps see how it lines up before I get into the project. I wasn't crazy about tucking the shackles in frame like that although it seems to work well. I was thinking about putting the shackles up front to eliminate the height problem and the back spring perch under frame.

[By-Tor]

Yeah, the shackles look like stock chevy rear shackles but I built those myself. They're a bunch stronger than factory shackles. No problem with running the shackles inside the frame. It's no different than running the rear shackles on the outside of the frame. Mounting the shackles up front will alright work since that is how the F-350's from the late 80's thru mid 90's were set up from the factory. The only downfall is that those trucks ate up shackle and track/panhard bar bushings and didn't ride as smooth as trucks with the shackles at the rear of the spring.

[Ten_Bucks]

By-Tor, how is the body roll on you rig if there's any at all since you're not running a sway bar? If there isn't any body roll, is it because of those springs you built?

Scott

[By-Tor]

There is actually no more body roll than when I had the ProComp 6" kit cranked to 8" and factory sway bar. The truck corners really well for it's size. I've put 20,000 miles on the SFA and pull trailers frequently. The truck is my daily driver and I really couldn't be happier with the results.

[Ten_Bucks]

Originally Posted by By-Tor

There is actually no more body roll than when I had the ProComp 6" kit cranked to 8" and factory sway bar. The truck corners really well for it's size. I've put 20,000 miles on the SFA and pull trailers frequently. The truck is my daily driver and I really couldn't be happier with the results.

Thanks for the info.

Scott

[mackthehack]

I did my swap with an 89 ford d60. My shackles and hangers are inboard of the frame rail. I had someone machine the hubs so I could run a speed sensors and tone rings. With this axle it has the wider spring mounts, which limits the turning radius... unless you run spacers, different offset wheels.

Like stated before... stay away from the ball joint axles, due to the weakness of the ball joints. The aam is a decent axle but still ball joint, and not a lot of aftermarket support. And they do not have locking hubs, but you can buy them for about 2k.

[JohnnyU]

Originally Posted by mackthehack

...I had someone machine the hubs so I could run a speed sensors and tone rings.

Do you have pictures of the machined hubs and sensors? This is the biggest hang-up with swapping an older axle into my 2004 Dodge... I don't much care for the $2K price tag on the dynatrac free-spin kits, so I'm searching for alternative methods.

[CowboyKyle]

Originally Posted by mackthehack

I did my swap with an 89 ford d60. My shackles and hangers are inboard of the frame rail. I had someone machine the hubs so I could run a speed sensors and tone rings. With this axle it has the wider spring mounts, which limits the turning radius... unless you run spacers, different offset wheels.

Like stated before... stay away from the ball joint axles, due to the weakness of the ball joints. The aam is a decent axle but still ball joint, and not a lot of aftermarket support. And they do not have locking hubs, but you can buy them for about 2k.

Would you care to show me a pic of broken D60 ball joint and/or knuckle?

I can show you plenty of broken king-pin stuff if you wanna make it fair.

[mackthehack]

Originally Posted by JohnnyU

Do you have pictures of the machined hubs and sensors? This is the biggest hang-up with swapping an older axle into my 2004 Dodge... I don't much care for the $2K price tag on the dynatrac free-spin kits, so I'm searching for alternative methods.

I do not... Trevor at WFO did this for me. He might have some pics.

[mackthehack]

Originally Posted by CowboyKyle

Would you care to show me a pic of broken D60 ball joint and/or knuckle?

I can show you plenty of broken king-pin stuff if you wanna make it fair.

I guess its not fair then... I don't have pics. Just word of mouth from everyone that I have talked to about front axles. Before I did the swap on my truck.

[CowboyKyle]

Originally Posted by mackthehack

I guess its not fair then... I don't have pics. Just word of mouth from everyone that I have talked to about front axles. Before I did the swap on my truck.

"Word of mouth" is sometimes wrong.

In this case, its a steaming pile of BULL SHIT.

Competitors and F550s use ball joints. Dynatrac 60s come with ball joints. Them being "weaker" is just false. If anything, they're stronger when you add high steer to a stock king pin knuckle, however, as more D44 style (mill/drill) high steer options become available for BJ 60s, they may prove to have the same flaws as the king pin knuckles.

[mackthehack]

Originally Posted by CowboyKyle

"Word of mouth" is sometimes wrong.

In this case, its a steaming pile of BULL SHIT.

Competitors and F550s use ball joints. Dynatrac 60s come with ball joints. Them being "weaker" is just false. If anything, they're stronger when you add high steer to a stock king pin knuckle, however, as more D44 style (mill/drill) high steer options become available for BJ 60s, they may prove to have the same flaws as the king pin knuckles.

I wondered why the Dynatrac axles were ball joint. Even though being told they were weak by some reputable shops.

Learn something new everyday...

[By-Tor]

Mackthehack, do you have any pics of your conversion or a build thread?