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Old 05-10-2011, 04:50 PM   #101 (permalink)
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One other comment... that cam is a good choice for your engine, don't let anyone push you into some gay as flat tappet hydraulic, or even a flat tappet solid.

You have a 500" engine with a long stroke, and very good heads, the carb you had was probably not the problem, but the vac sec you have now will still work fine.

The reasons for not putting in a smaller cam:

1. You have a high static compression ratio for a carb application, if you put in a small cam, it will probably be very detonation sensitive, and you will end up having to run very conservative ignition advance to make it work with 91 octane.

2. BBC have heavy valve train parts, you need pretty high valve spring pressure to stay out of valve float.

3. If you try to run heavy valve spring pressures on a flat tappet hyd or solid, you will probably eat the cam.

4. Most motor oil available today doesn't work well with with flat tappet cams.

5. Hydraulic roller cams cost too much, and don't perform as well as a solid roller at higher rpm levels (above 5000)

6. People who say that solid rollers are unreliable, or require too much maintenance are full of shit, with the correct parts, including a good stud girdle, you won't have to touch them more than once every 4-5K miles.

7. Valve springs are available now that will last a long time with that amount of lift, with after market heads I don't think you will have retainer to stem seal issues, but you can get a keepers to raise the retainer at least .050 if needed.

The rest of your engine can turn 6500 no problem, don't limit it with any smaller cam than you already have.
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Old 05-11-2011, 03:02 AM   #102 (permalink)
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Longer studs might bring you into needing longer pushrods. Check for proper geometry with studs adjusted where you want them then buy pushrods closets to correct length.
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Old 05-11-2011, 03:41 PM   #103 (permalink)
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Thanks for the info ^

Well, I pulled the pass side cover off today and the carnage continues......


This is the pattern on the valve stem from the rocker that broke off


Poor alignment on others




All of the pushrods on the rockers with bad alignment showed wear from the guide.


This is the exhaust gasket that I checked the other day because I could hear it leaking....The bolt wasn't even finger tight....


So here are the conclusions I came up with:
Crappy pushrod guides that don't line up
Triple valve springs (could potentially be the stud breaking problem?)
Lots of dumb

I am NOT having fun right now. I just wanna drive it
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Old 05-11-2011, 05:02 PM   #104 (permalink)
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That is insane! I guess its just a crappy roller rocker setup? I assume the guides came with the rockers as a kit or something. How crazy thoough!
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Old 05-11-2011, 05:57 PM   #105 (permalink)
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Is that green lock tite on the head nut?
Good luck on getting that off if so...

Id look into some quality rockers for that awesome motor. Did it damage the valve stem? Make sure you check those very carefully cuz if they are worn its gonna give you hell on a new set of roller rockers. Good luck.
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Old 05-11-2011, 06:08 PM   #106 (permalink)
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Your guides are adjustable... you should be able to adjust the position of the roller tip so that it is centered left/right on the stem. The studs are too short, the axle of the rocker arm is riding on the threads.

The stud girdles will distribute the load over the entire set of studs.

Also, the stud length won't affect the pushrod length, longer studs will just helps support the axle of the rocker on the smooth part of the stud, and give adequate thread engagement for the poly lock.
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Old 05-11-2011, 06:14 PM   #107 (permalink)
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Triple springs... That could be a serious problem. If someone tried to use stock type GM triple springs on that roller cam it will cause a big problem, many stock "triple" springs Inner, Outer plus a flat damper in the middle can't handle much lift.
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Old 05-18-2011, 10:27 AM   #108 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Y5mgisi View Post
That is insane! I guess its just a crappy roller rocker setup? I assume the guides came with the rockers as a kit or something. How crazy thoough!
I think crappily set up would better describe it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gearsturnin View Post
Is that green lock tite on the head nut?
Good luck on getting that off if so...

Id look into some quality rockers for that awesome motor. Did it damage the valve stem? Make sure you check those very carefully cuz if they are worn its gonna give you hell on a new set of roller rockers. Good luck.
Not green locktite, it is getting some coolant weep up through the threads on a couple of the head bolts....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twinturbo496 View Post
Your guides are adjustable... you should be able to adjust the position of the roller tip so that it is centered left/right on the stem. The studs are too short, the axle of the rocker arm is riding on the threads.

The stud girdles will distribute the load over the entire set of studs.

Also, the stud length won't affect the pushrod length, longer studs will just helps support the axle of the rocker on the smooth part of the stud, and give adequate thread engagement for the poly lock.
I will probably not go with stud girdles right now, mostly because they are $$$ but I also don't plan on running this thing into the super high rpm's.

I did order another set of Pro Series ARP rocker studs that have a 2" effective stud length instead of the 1.75" studs I originally ordered. The extra .25" of shaft will hopefully give me around 7-8 threads of polylock engagement instead of the original 3. Also a lot more of the rocker will be on the shaft instead of on the threads.

I also ordered some Percy's "seal 4 good" reusable aluminum crush header gaskets. Read some good reviews on them, hopefully they last.
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Old 05-19-2011, 10:51 AM   #109 (permalink)
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Money pit......


I have been doing A LOT of reading in my Holley book and now the BBC book, and I still feel like I don't know anything.




From left to right: Original broken stud, stock length ARP "High Performance" replacement, 2" effective length ARP "Pro Series" stud

The pro studs should be the perfect length. I should be able to get 6-8 threads on it and have almost the whole rocker on the shaft and off the threads.


It is raining today, so I am out to work on the 'ol Yota

Shop is a mess with this thing taken apart too:

She sure is ugly but I love her all the same...
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Old 05-19-2011, 02:23 PM   #110 (permalink)
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OH... MY... GAWD....

I am in love with this truck. (well, the imagine of what i think it will look like done I am in love with )
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Old 05-19-2011, 03:12 PM   #111 (permalink)
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Hope all that stuff solves your problems!
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Old 05-19-2011, 05:26 PM   #112 (permalink)
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Good choice on the studs.

The guide plates are the right ones, you just need to adjust them so the roller is centered on the tip of each valve stem, then torque everything down...

You really should suck it up and buy the stud girdles.

competition products has online pricing that is very good.

Nothing stopping you from 6500K if you get the stud girdles.

Put back on the big carb, and get a wide band O2 sensor.
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Old 05-19-2011, 05:36 PM   #113 (permalink)
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Before you put ANY of them on, pull them all off except two and roll the motor over at ZERO lash and check for coil bind. you want Minimum 65 Thousands between Coils. We run them down a little tighter on the race cars because It helps with spring flutter. I would also recommend going with a better rocker. Those are ticking time bombs!!! Get some Comp pro mags (look identicle but not a chinese knock off)... Just my .02
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Old 05-19-2011, 07:21 PM   #114 (permalink)
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Soooo, when are you gonna brake out the sawzall and do somthin to this thing? You could tube it out and still keep it classy...for the old guys. At least start the linked dana 60swap
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Old 05-22-2011, 02:27 PM   #115 (permalink)
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Was driving out of my neighborhood today and spotted the smaller sexier cousin to Ol' Blue. I managed to get a pic

Didn't sound near as mean though



No, I didn't get the engine running yet.... I have been wasting all my time on this stupid toyota
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Old 05-24-2011, 10:58 AM   #116 (permalink)
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why not save your money and just take the heads off and build them the right way for the bottom end of the engine with good parts?

you'll never have to worry again and ill be able to see a smokey brunout
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Old 05-24-2011, 12:45 PM   #117 (permalink)
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why does he need to take the heads off to "build it the right way"?
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Old 05-24-2011, 07:15 PM   #118 (permalink)
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why does he need to take the heads off to "build it the right way"?
because who knows if a valve or something else is fawked up.

he'd then be able to fix the coolant seepage too. just what i'd do to make sure everything was right
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Old 05-31-2011, 06:16 PM   #119 (permalink)
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Only good way I could figger out how to keep everything in order...


Before I pulled everything apart I checked the clearance between a fully compressed spring coil, there was no bind and a bit less than .700 clearance between them IIRC. I didn't see anything that really concerned me.


I took all of the pushrod guides off and realigned them. The ones that still wouldn't fit right, I took off and used a carbide bit on the middle alignment bolt hole until they fit perfect.


Also got the new header gaskets on and everything mostly buttoned up. I hope to take her for a ride tomorrow after I fix a couple other things.


Picked up a couple axles. If you need some 3/4 ton d44 or FF14 whole or parts let me know.
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Old 05-31-2011, 06:37 PM   #120 (permalink)
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The valve tip alignment looks great.

Have you done much with solid roller cams, setting lash, etc? What lash are you going with on these?

Many roller cams specify over .020 lash on the exhaust side, I don't feel that is really always needed, and the extra lash makes the valvetrain quite a bit noisier in my experience.

.700 wouldn't be right, but .070 between coils would make more sense.

Make sure that it isn't a 4/7 swap cam...

Also, your poly lock set screws are now in the correct position. I still think you should buy a stud girdle.

Last edited by Twinturbo496; 05-31-2011 at 06:39 PM.
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Old 05-31-2011, 07:25 PM   #121 (permalink)
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The valve tip alignment looks great.

Have you done much with solid roller cams, setting lash, etc? What lash are you going with on these?

Many roller cams specify over .020 lash on the exhaust side, I don't feel that is really always needed, and the extra lash makes the valvetrain quite a bit noisier in my experience.

.700 wouldn't be right, but .070 between coils would make more sense.

Make sure that it isn't a 4/7 swap cam...

Also, your poly lock set screws are now in the correct position. I still think you should buy a stud girdle.
This is pretty much the first time I have ever messed with an engine this deep, that explains why I am going kinda slow because I have been doing a lot of research.

My cam specs out .020 on exhaust and intake so that is what I set it at. I follered the instructions in my big block Chevy book and set everything at .020 then went around and feeler gauged the whole valvetrain again just to make sure nothing moved. The polylocks ended up perfect with these studs. I will probably end up getting some girdles sometime in the future. I have a lot more confidence in the top end now that I personally went through a lot of it.

I checked the lash on a couple of the rockers before I tore it apart and they came out to ~.034, which explains a lot of the noise and I thought it was enough lash to have been one of the many causes of the last studs breaking.



.070 one decimal point off psshhhh. Math was never my strong suit

I have no idea what a 4/7 swap cam is

Also, the engine turns over smoothly with a breaker bar and not too much effort. For some reason it gave me a little comfort in knowing that nothing sent up any red flags on this wrenching day.

Last edited by oober; 05-31-2011 at 07:28 PM.
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Old 05-31-2011, 07:59 PM   #122 (permalink)
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I am going to quote this from "How to Rebuild the Big-Block Chevrolet" by Tony E Huntimer. Because it is the simplest method I have read yet of how to adjust valves.



“There are methods available to adjust valves while only rotating the engine a couple of revolutions, but with the availability of custom-ground camshafts and increasing advances in camshaft technology, some of those methods can fall short and create headaches for engine builders. This is the reason for using the following tried-and-true method of adjusting lifters. This suggested method won’t have you jumping back and forth adjusting lifters out of order, which can lead to confusion and oversights.

The additional revolutions of the engine from using this method aren’t going to flatten your flat-tappet cam as long as you have followed my instructions on leaving secondary inner valvesprings off the heads until after camshaft break-in, all of your parts are in good working order, and you used a heavy-duty camshaft lube like Joe Gibbs Racing Assembly Grease.

For adjusting hydraulic lifters, use your thumb and index finger to turn the pushrod while tightening the rocker nut. When the pushrod starts to drag because of rocker arm pressure, only tighten the nut another 1/8 turn. Tighten the rocker set-screws if your rocker nuts are equipped with them. Check your cam card for proper lash settings for solid lifter cams and adjust them while using a set of feeler gauges, and when the lash is set, don’t tighten the nut any farther. Rotate the crankshaft clockwise until the mark on the damper is on TDC and both valves on the number-1 cylinder are closed (lifters are both down inside their bores). For reference while adjusting the valves, the intake valves are closer to the intake manifold. Rotate the crank until the number-1 cylinder exhaust valve starts to open and adjust the intake valve. Rotate the crank until the position when the number-1 cylinder intake valve completely closes and adjust the exhaust valve. Continue down the line to the cylinders in this order: number-3, 5, 7, 2, 4, 6, and 8 until all the valves are adjusted.”


For the copyright police:
Huntimer, Tony E. "Chapter 9 / Adjusting Valves." How to Rebuild the Big-block Cheverolet. North Branch, MN: CarTech, 2009. Print.



It is a good read though, if you are planning on diving into an engine it always helps to do all the research first. I haven't hard core gone through every page but I have not been let down yet with this book or my Super Tuning Holleys book.
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Old 05-31-2011, 08:56 PM   #123 (permalink)
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Isky is now offering # 4 & 7 cylinder firing order “Swap" camshafts for Small & Big Block Chevy V8’s . All cams are SPECIAL ORDER, custom grinds. Please allow up to 1 week for shipping. The 4/7 Swap reduces crankshaft torsional vibration for smoother dampening & more power.

Unlikely that you have one, however it is possible, and if you didn't know that it had been done it would have made tuning impossible. Basically just changing the firing order. Since 4&7 are at TDC at the same time, you can just grind the lobes different, that is the only change required (and of course changing two plug wires around).

As far as how much, if any additional power you get... I think it is probably insignificant, however it does make the exhaust sound different.
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Old 05-31-2011, 09:10 PM   #124 (permalink)
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It appears from the pics that you have a stock HEI distributor.

If that is the case, it probably doesn't have a rev limiter... I think HEI ignitions work pretty well, but the combination you have is capable of revving high enough to justify some sort of rev control, your engine has good rods, pistons, and crankshaft, but it still probably shouldn't be revved past 7000, and once you have your tuning done, I suspect you will be surprised how easy it is for that engine to quickly spin past 7000.

Also make sure that you set your timing based on full mech advance with the vac line unhooked. I don't think you should need more than 32 or 34 degrees all in at 3000 rpm to make good power, depending on the condition/modifications of your HEI, that may be difficult to achieve.
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Old 06-03-2011, 06:39 AM   #125 (permalink)
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Caution, long story.....

OK, so I got all the rockers adjusted buttoned everything up and started it. Sounded terrible. So I got back in and took the valve covers off and two rockers had ~1/4" of lash.....WTF, so I made sure the pushrods were down in the lifter bores and reset them to .020.

Started it up again, still sounds terrible. So I called the local "big block guy" that lives down the street. So Mark came over to take a listen and gave me a couple of tips.

1. He said it a common occurrence to have a couple of rockers change lash after you start it up. He has built hundreds of big blocks, has done it in the past, and still has it happen to him every once in a while.

2. My fuel line coming from the tank is too small, but I probably won't run into problems with that until I really start running it to its fullest.

3. The noise we are hearing is most likely a valve hanging open... So my next stop is to do a compression test on all of the cylinders. Hopefully one or more of the valves didn't get bent when the rocker studs broke.

4. BBC's are notorious for boiling fuel in the carb and I should get a heat dissipater/shield plate for my carb.

5. I need to adjust the depth of my starter (this one is mostly so I remember to check it)

If I do a compression test and am unable to get good readings through adjusting the valves, then I will pull the engine and go through it. If that happens it will most likely become a very ssslloooowwww build because I am tired of spending money on it.
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