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Old 07-26-2011, 08:12 PM   #301 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motochris View Post
Really no comparison between motocross shocks and shocks for large vehicles.
On a motocross shock, the adjusters mainly are an adjustable oriface. By closing off the orifice, it reduces the flow of oil...and increases the damping in that direction. That also increases heat exponentially.
Main issue with car shocks... they are dealing with WAY more weight and force than a motocross shock. That force going thru an adjustable orifice would create tremendous heat.... and cause large amounts of shock fade in a short time. That's why you don't see adjusters like that on a car shock.
Yes, some companies offer an adjuster, but it's usually on shocks for smaller vehicles..like UTV's, or on shocks used on vehicles where heat isn't a concern..like mall crawlers.
Even the companies that offer an adjuster on some shocks... don't offer them on a race shock. It just doesn't work well.
Companies like FOX make shocks using lot's of adjusters for other markets... UTV, ATV, bicycle, etc.... so if anyone would be doing adjusters on the car shocks, it'de be them. They don't do it either.

If Chris is really gone, it's a shame, because I really wanted the opportunity to follow up on this. This is a very well written response, but I believe Chris has made some inappropriate assumptions here. I'll clarify my thought process for those still here with an interest in the subject.

I went back and re-read my entire thread just to brush up on my reading comprehension skills. NOWHERE did I ever suggest using an external compression adjuster as the sole, or as the primary means of adjusting the dampening, or as a long term solution. What Chris is saying about heat generation through an orifice is correct, which makes the external adjuster a poor choice for controlling the majority of the dampening long term. I suspect Chris assumed that this was my intention, but this is NOT the case.

So---why would I want external adjusters?

Again, in the build thread I mentined NUMEROUS times that I'm expecting that the learning curve for valving coilovers will be steep, and that I'm learning as I go. With that in mind, I'll use any tool available to me to help dial in the right shim stacks, and the external adjusters are just such a tool. Yes, they add to the up-front cost of the shock. Yes, once the right shim package is assembled, the external adjusters no longer contribute to the total dampening---they're just along for the ride at that point. Am I still willing to pay extra for something that I will eventually render obsolete? If it makes my job easier in the long term, YES!

Also, keep in mind that I'm located in south Louisiana---not exactly a hotbed of desert racing. So, suffice to say there are no seasoned professional shock tuning gurus in the area to assist me in getting the valving just right. It's going to all be up to me, and those external adjusters are a tool that's going to speed up my entire valving experiment.

My shock tuning sessions will be relatively short duration events, so the heat buildup during test sessions will not have any long term ill effects.

I must also take issue with the comment "No comparison between motocross shocks and shocks for large vehicles". They are the same in the most important respects. First, if you understand the components and their function in one, you will understand components and function in another despite any difference in size. And secondly, the performance you get out of a shock is directly proportional to the time and effort you invest in producing the right valving and maintaining the shock.
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Old 07-27-2011, 10:06 AM   #302 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by BRORSAM View Post
If Chris is really gone, it's a shame, because I really wanted the opportunity to follow up on this. This is a very well written response, but I believe Chris has made some inappropriate assumptions here. I'll clarify my thought process for those still here with an interest in the subject.

I went back and re-read my entire thread just to brush up on my reading comprehension skills. NOWHERE did I ever suggest using an external compression adjuster as the sole, or as the primary means of adjusting the dampening, or as a long term solution. What Chris is saying about heat generation through an orifice is correct, which makes the external adjuster a poor choice for controlling the majority of the dampening long term. I suspect Chris assumed that this was my intention, but this is NOT the case.

So---why would I want external adjusters?

Again, in the build thread I mentined NUMEROUS times that I'm expecting that the learning curve for valving coilovers will be steep, and that I'm learning as I go. With that in mind, I'll use any tool available to me to help dial in the right shim stacks, and the external adjusters are just such a tool. Yes, they add to the up-front cost of the shock. Yes, once the right shim package is assembled, the external adjusters no longer contribute to the total dampening---they're just along for the ride at that point. Am I still willing to pay extra for something that I will eventually render obsolete? If it makes my job easier in the long term, YES!

Also, keep in mind that I'm located in south Louisiana---not exactly a hotbed of desert racing. So, suffice to say there are no seasoned professional shock tuning gurus in the area to assist me in getting the valving just right. It's going to all be up to me, and those external adjusters are a tool that's going to speed up my entire valving experiment.

My shock tuning sessions will be relatively short duration events, so the heat buildup during test sessions will not have any long term ill effects.

I must also take issue with the comment "No comparison between motocross shocks and shocks for large vehicles". They are the same in the most important respects. First, if you understand the components and their function in one, you will understand components and function in another despite any difference in size. And secondly, the performance you get out of a shock is directly proportional to the time and effort you invest in producing the right valving and maintaining the shock.


I think that there is one thing that is (maybe) a misinterpretation, but I'm sure its not, it just sounds like it.

When you say external adjustable, I hope you are not referring to an external bypass, or internal bypass for that matter. Because a bypass shock is not a tool for dialing in your valving, it's a velocity AND position sensitive shock not only a velocity sensitive shock. That is a totally different game from an adjustable shock.

I think it's better to have a position and velocity sensitive shock, instead of just a adjustable velocity sensitive shock.

My $.02
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Old 07-27-2011, 10:56 AM   #303 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by K5runner@hotmail.com View Post
I think that there is one thing that is (maybe) a misinterpretation, but I'm sure its not, it just sounds like it.

When you say external adjustable, I hope you are not referring to an external bypass, or internal bypass for that matter. Because a bypass shock is not a tool for dialing in your valving, it's a velocity AND position sensitive shock not only a velocity sensitive shock. That is a totally different game from an adjustable shock.

I think it's better to have a position and velocity sensitive shock, instead of just a adjustable velocity sensitive shock.

My $.02
Jack

Yes, Jack, you are correct...thanks for the catch. Bypass shocks are not intended to be part of this discussion. I'm speaking only of external adjusters like what you would find on a motocross shock---usually mounted at the inlet of the remote reservoir and acting on the quantity of oil displaced by the rod.

I'm trying to steer away from bypass shocks for the purpose of this discussion for reasons more numerous than I probably need to explain here. But primarily, I'm advocating a more advanced, more developed coilover shock.
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Old 07-28-2011, 08:05 PM   #304 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by motochris View Post
If you really do want an adjustable coilover... look at Revolution Racing. www.rrshocks.com
Really the only ones playing with it. Figure about $1500 per 2.5 coilover.





One glance, and my (admittedly untrained) eye tells me that this has got to be some form of bypass shock.

Thought I'd made it clear in post #241 that I wanted to keep bypass shocks outside the scope of this discussion, but I suppose that request was easy to overlook given the heat of the ensuing ridiculous argument.

Been trying to access the website in the link Chris attached every day since this was posted, to no avail. Site could be down for maintenance.

I was able to find some information on a desert racing oriented forum, and my suspicion is confirmed---this is indeed an internal bypass shock.

Obviously it's a very nice piece of equipment, but there's no way I could in good conscience hang a set of these on my truck. I'd have to build a much nicer truck to give something like this a proper home.

Now, if I can trust the operational description from the site I found, this shock uses a solid piston (no shims) and preload adjustable spring loaded check valves in the bypass tubes. The intention appears to be that the external adjustments tailor HSC, and the shock normally wouldn't contain features to govern LSC (though apparently it can be modified to do so).

Suffice to say that I believe there's room for a happy medium between this $1500 full race masterpiece and the typical budget coilover, while still integrating external adjusters---even if they're used only for rough tuning purposes. No matter though...I've identified the components I'll need to give me the HSC adjustability I'm after. I don't have a solution for external LSC adjustability (yet), but with the valving specs and experience Poorboy has generously shared, I might very well be able to get by without the LSC adjustability feature.
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Old 07-29-2011, 10:57 AM   #305 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by BRORSAM View Post
I've identified the components I'll need to give me the HSC adjustability I'm after. I don't have a solution for external LSC adjustability (yet), but with the valving specs and experience Poorboy has generously shared, I might very well be able to get by without the LSC adjustability feature.
In an effort to follow along with the discussion, let me see if my understanding of how these remote reservoir monotube shocks work is correct...

The piston has orifices or bleed holes that control low speed damping. At high speed, the flow through the orifice is fast enough that the orifice becomes 'choked' forcing the majority of the fluid to route through shim stacks, which can be separately tuned to control HSC and HSR damping. Is that right?

The remote reservoir's purpose is simply to give the oil some place to go as the shock shaft displaces the oil.

If I read you correctly, you're talking about putting an adjustable orifice on the hose that leads to the remote reservoir, right?

If this works as intended (allows you to adjust things so that your shocks work the way you want, at least as long as they are relatively cool), how do plan to re-shim the high speed damping to match this performance? Build a shock 'dyno'?


For the rest of us who've never seen the inside of the motocross shocks that you've mentioned, would you care to delve into how they work?


I've seen some low cost monotube adjustable shocks out there, like this one:

http://www.procompusa.com/prodDetail...3306&plID=1842

Do you know how this might work?

*edit* found a few more tidbits on this shock. But I'm still not quite sure I get what they're saying. In my mind I see this adjusting what I would think would be a low speed orifice?

http://www.truckcustomizers.com/imag...rs-2-large.jpg

http://www.4x4review.com/Features/In...0/Default.aspx
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Old 07-29-2011, 04:54 PM   #306 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jalbrecht42 View Post
In an effort to follow along with the discussion, let me see if my understanding of how these remote reservoir monotube shocks work is correct...

The piston has orifices or bleed holes that control low speed damping. At high speed, the flow through the orifice is fast enough that the orifice becomes 'choked' forcing the majority of the fluid to route through shim stacks, which can be separately tuned to control HSC and HSR damping. Is that right?

The remote reservoir's purpose is simply to give the oil some place to go as the shock shaft displaces the oil.

If I read you correctly, you're talking about putting an adjustable orifice on the hose that leads to the remote reservoir, right?

If this works as intended (allows you to adjust things so that your shocks work the way you want, at least as long as they are relatively cool), how do plan to re-shim the high speed damping to match this performance? Build a shock 'dyno'?


For the rest of us who've never seen the inside of the motocross shocks that you've mentioned, would you care to delve into how they work?


I've seen some low cost monotube adjustable shocks out there, like this one:

http://www.procompusa.com/prodDetail...3306&plID=1842

Do you know how this might work?

*edit* found a few more tidbits on this shock. But I'm still not quite sure I get what they're saying. In my mind I see this adjusting what I would think would be a low speed orifice?

http://www.truckcustomizers.com/imag...rs-2-large.jpg

http://www.4x4review.com/Features/In...0/Default.aspx
Good questions. If you don't mind, I'll break up my response so as to focus on one area at a time. Let's tackle those Pro Comp shocks first. I don't have any experience with these, so what I say is going to be based strictly on what I see in the links you attached, which may not provide the whole picture.

Obviously, we have a gundrilled shaft here, with some sort of needle inside, and a detented adjuster / cam in the lower eye that positions the needle in one of six distinct steps. Unfortunately, I can't make out enough detail in the cutaway drawing to say with much certainty just what that needle is doing. Typically, a motocross shock having a similar needle system uses a tapered needle that engages an orifice in the shock shaft, in conjunction with a crossdrill passage in the rod. Generally, that bypasses some portion of the rebound flow through the rod / needle combination rather than forcing it through the shim pack. The lower the needle position in the shaft, the more open the orifice, the more flow bypasses the shim stack, and the softer the rebound.

You will have flow through that orifice at all shaft speeds, but as you suggest, at some points (higher shaft speeds) those channels become more of a restriction than the shim stacks. So, we're predominantly affecting lower speed rebound with that sort of setup.

That's not the only possibility though. It's also possible that there's some detail in the shock piston, the shaft, and the needle that we can't see that might allow oil to bypass both the rebound and the compression stacks at the same time. That way one knob affects both directions, making both softer or both stiffer at the same time. Again, it's likely though that the effect would be more in the low speed realm than the high speed.

It's not entirely outside the realm of possibility that turning the knob icreases compression while decreasing rebound, or vice-versa. Given the market that this sort of shock is likely geared towards, my guess (and yes, it's just a guess based on the limited information presented) would be that this setup increases rebound and compression simultaneously, and decreases them both simultaneously.

It's rather unfortunate that the manufacturer didn't spell out a bit more consisely what the adjuster is doing---whether it's adjusting rebound, or compression, or both, in the same or opposite directions..... Why should the consumer have to deal with any uncertainty about a feature such as this?

Last edited by BRORSAM; 07-29-2011 at 05:02 PM.
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Old 07-29-2011, 06:03 PM   #307 (permalink)
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[QUOTE=jalbrecht42;13179926]In an effort to follow along with the discussion, let me see if my understanding of how these remote reservoir monotube shocks work is correct...

The piston has orifices or bleed holes that control low speed damping. At high speed, the flow through the orifice is fast enough that the orifice becomes 'choked' forcing the majority of the fluid to route through shim stacks, which can be separately tuned to control HSC and HSR damping. Is that right?

The remote reservoir's purpose is simply to give the oil some place to go as the shock shaft displaces the oil.

If I read you correctly, you're talking about putting an adjustable orifice on the hose that leads to the remote reservoir, right?

If this works as intended (allows you to adjust things so that your shocks work the way you want, at least as long as they are relatively cool), how do plan to re-shim the high speed damping to match this performance? Build a shock 'dyno'?


For the rest of us who've never seen the inside of the motocross shocks that you've mentioned, would you care to delve into how they work?



Let me offer a really general overview, with the disclaimer that there seems to be an INFINITE number of things that can be altered inside a shock to influence the dampening curve. Such is the nature of a hydraulic circuit, and there's often more than one way of producing the desired curve. It's one of those deals where you can ask 10 different people and get 10 different answers, so it's inevitable that there will be disagreement with whatever I say next.

The pistons do have bleed holes. These influence the valving at extremely low speeds (cycling the shocks by hand on the workbench).

Shaft speeds rise, and the shim stack takes over. Assuming a simple pyramid shim stack, then the makeup of the shim stack (and the proximity to the backup washer) become the controlling features.

Think of that backup washer as a "deflection limiter". Without it, the shim stack would be essentially unchecked, with no limit to the amount of "curtain area" opened up when the shim pack deflects away from the piston. Now, add that backup washer back in---it's going to stop deflection of the shim stack at some point, thereby limiting the "curtain area".

Limiting that "curtain area" produces some measure of HSC dampening adjustability. Essentially you're manipulating the size of the largest orifice in the shock by limiting the allowable deflection of the shim pack. Changing that relatonship between the backup washer and the shim pack therefore dictates how large that orifice opening becomes with the shimpack fully open.

It can get more complicated from here. Remember in post #259 where K5runner spoke of "one shim stack atop another"? In that scenario, you're using a second shim stack in place of the backup washer. That stack is flexible, so the deflection limit of the primary stack is no longer a hard limit, as it was with the backup washer atop the primary stack. With this sort of compound stack setup, you're using the primary stack for LSC, the backup washer as a HSC limit, and the secondary stack as a bridge between the two---sort of a "medium speed" dampening adjustment.

Now, some would argue that you can adjust low speed and high speed all within the confines of a single simple pyramid shim stack, but that approach is something the motocross shock manufacturers have gotten away from quite some time ago.

For the sake of comparison---the shock from my 1986 Honda ATC250R runs pretty much a simple pyramid style stack, while the shock from a 1994 CR250R motocrosser something more along the lines of the compound stack. Needless to say, the motocross bike is substantially more advanced than the ATC, and so much more is demanded of it within the scope of its intended use.

That compound stack arrangement allows for lots of adjustability, but there's also lots of opportunity there to make mistakes. It's a double edged sword in that sense, so caution is always warranted.

Again, I do not consider myself an expert here by any means, so I'm totally willing to accept information from someone more knowlegeable than me. I'm eager to learn and fascinated by the way these things work. This is my understanding at the present, but by no means the definitive word.
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Old 07-29-2011, 06:31 PM   #308 (permalink)
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If I read you correctly, you're talking about putting an adjustable orifice on the hose that leads to the remote reservoir, right?

If this works as intended (allows you to adjust things so that your shocks work the way you want, at least as long as they are relatively cool), how do plan to re-shim the high speed damping to match this performance? Build a shock 'dyno'?



That's my thought process at the moment...an adjustable orifice in the line between the shock body and the reservoir. Again, I intend to use it as a tuning tool, strictly to speed my progress through what I expect to be a daunting learning curve. Once I achieve something close to the "ideal" shim package for my application, the adjustable orifice will no longer be a major contributor to the valving.

I'm expecting my test sessions to be of extremely short duration at first---maybe 2 or 3 jumps. Every time I take the shocks apart to re-valve at the piston, I expect to then rely less on the adjustable orifice, and the test sessions will get longer.

I'm toying with several ideas at the moment for helping me with the HSC stack makeup. I was kinda hoping I could hit up K5runner and maybe put together a package somewhat similar to his as a raw starting point. Another possibility might be to use one of the existing F-O-A primary shim packs as a secondary stack. To keep things simple, I'd prefer to get acceptable dampening for my application with a single shim pack, but if it doesn't work out that way, I'll be working on the compound stack setup.

Additionally, I'm wondering about putting together some sort of spring force / deflection test rig---something not unlike a RIMAC machine for testing engine valve springs. That would allow me to assemble hybrid shim packs (something different than the standard offerings found on the F-O-A website) and be able to make some prediction on how they'd function without ever installing them.

I'm trying to minimize the number of times I need to take the shocks apart for revalving. Not that I'm intimidated by the innards or scared of the work, I just worry that I'll wear the shocks out with continuous disassembly and reassembly before getting the valving where I really want it to be.
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Old 08-01-2011, 08:02 PM   #309 (permalink)
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We could go on forever about shocks....

...but there's still a lot of other stuff that needs to be done here. Headers are a good example.



I'd mentioned previously that all the header primary tubes on the driver's side cleared the framerails, along with three of the four on the passenger's side. Rerouting that one primary tube would have made for a simple job, but there are other problems here:

1) No way the driver's side collector is going to clear the front driveshaft as things are in this picture.
2) I like the way the primary tubes come together on these Edelbrock headers, but I never did particularly care much for the short and abrupt taper of the collector.
3) The Edelbrocks are fine for what they were intended for--an improvement over stock manifolds. I use them because they fit my chassis better than any others I've tried. No, they were never intended to compete with long tube headers, but their short and drastically unequal tube length isn't doing me any favors as far as power output.
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Old 08-01-2011, 08:24 PM   #310 (permalink)
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Problems become opportunities...

So, the plan sounds simple:

1) I rework the headers and move the collectors to provide adequate clearance for all the components that the headers must clear.
2) I take the opportunity to lengthen all the primary tubes, and do what I can to minimize the great difference from longest primary tube to shortest primary tube.
3) I find some other collector to use that's going to offer a less abrupt transition from primary tube outlet to collector outlet.


Truthfully, for some time I've been thinking about the longer primary tubes, so it wasn't a huge disappointment to me that I was causing myself the extra work in this case. I know how favorably the 509 responded when I switched from the (short runner) Accel Super Ram intake manifold to the (long runner) Arizona Speed & Marine intake manifold. It's entirely likely that it will respond just as favorably to the longer header primary tubes.

As far as the collectors, this seemed like a neat idea, so I figured I'd give them a try:

http://www.coneeng.com/exhaust_system_kits.html
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Old 08-02-2011, 10:27 AM   #311 (permalink)
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before you dive into makin a custom set of headers id try a set of the chevelle mid length headers. We have them on our 80 blazer and fit like a champ
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Old 08-02-2011, 06:39 PM   #312 (permalink)
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A couple things.

1st) let me know how I can help you in any way, if I can.

2nd) I'm going to get video of my truck (that I'll send to you) on every valving change so you can see "what does what". Because I don't entirely know.

3rd) Build the headers! I did mine and they were fun. It took a Saturday for the 1st and a Sunday for the second, with the piping and muffler installs. This is including my buddies over and drinking all my beer So what I'm saying is it can be done very easily while being distracted.
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Old 08-02-2011, 08:00 PM   #313 (permalink)
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before you dive into makin a custom set of headers id try a set of the chevelle mid length headers. We have them on our 80 blazer and fit like a champ
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Build the headers! I did mine and they were fun. It took a Saturday for the 1st and a Sunday for the second, with the piping and muffler installs. This is including my buddies over and drinking all my beer So what I'm saying is it can be done very easily while being distracted.
Two different suggestions---both good, but only one will win out.

D-Lux: Thanks for the tip. I'll have to keep an eye out for a set of those to see how favorably the shape compares. I just can't imagine that anything will ever be just right for my application right out of the box, but I've got no problem with doing some research on the subject.

K5runner's suggestion is the way we're going for now. If I don't drive myself crazy modifying this set, it will at least be a learning experience for me. Assuming the whole custom header building experience agrees with me, it prepares me well to build a 100% custom set sometime later on. Then there will be no reason why I cant have EXACTLY the headers I really want, without too many compromises.
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Old 08-02-2011, 08:11 PM   #314 (permalink)
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A couple things.

1st) let me know how I can help you in any way, if I can.

2nd) I'm going to get video of my truck (that I'll send to you) on every valving change so you can see "what does what". Because I don't entirely know.

Thanks Jack! I'll need to get the truck running under its own power and see where I am as far as a raw baseline. Maybe after I get there, we can have a nice little disscussion on valving.

I'm very interested to see video of your truck in action! Bonus points if you can stage a jump similar to the one on Poorboy's thread.
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Old 08-03-2011, 09:25 AM   #315 (permalink)
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"I'm very interested to see video of your truck in action! Bonus points if you can stage a jump similar to the one on Poorboy's thread.[/QUOTE]"

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Old 08-03-2011, 07:51 PM   #316 (permalink)
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Cut, trim, fit, tack, repeat...

Turns out this header building stuff isn't quite so bad as long as you have some patience. True fab skills would help too, but what I lack in fab skills I try to make up for in persistence.



Yeah, that #2 header tube looks pretty loopy. I thought I'd try to get by using mandrel bent elbows all having the same centerline radius, and this is what I get for that decision. Next time, we'll use mandrel bent elbows with different bend centerline dimensions.

Closeup of the "bullet" for the collector:




Assembled collector with megaphone extension and "V" band collector flange. No more of those irritating 3 bolt flat gasket collectors that seem to do nothing but blow out all the time.



Plenty clearance around my Mean Green mini starter. Didn't bother to trial fit a stock starter or attempt to arrange the tubes to clear a fullsize starter---can't see myself ever bothering with one of those again. I'd been disappointed for years with the fullsize GM starters, and have found nothing bad yet to say about the Mean Green unit.



That #2 tube doesn't look quite so embarrassing from this angle. Fortunately, this is about all anyone will be able to see with it installed, so I think I can live with this for now.

And a fresh coat of paint does wonders to hide the evidence:



The shortest tube now is longer than the longest original tube, so hopefully this will help the 509 to build some low end torque. (I'd been finding it somewhat deficient in that department.) It would have been nice if I could have made the tubes closer to the same length, but I'll probably be satisfied with this result for now. Besides, I have the driver's side header to complete before I bother re-engineering everything all over again.
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Old 08-04-2011, 07:58 AM   #317 (permalink)
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Header looks good!
Lots of people think headers are hard to make and like you said its more of a patience thing.
Happen to have more pics of your doubler mount?
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Old 08-04-2011, 07:49 PM   #318 (permalink)
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Header looks good!
Lots of people think headers are hard to make and like you said its more of a patience thing.
Happen to have more pics of your doubler mount?
Oddly, that's a part I neglected to take pictures of when it was apart.

Nothing too special there though. The adapter between the Klune and the 205 is a steel piece, 7 3/4" diameter (same as the Klune) with a male pilot on the Klune side, and a relief on the 205 side that pilots off of the outer race of the input bearing. Socket head capscrews in machined counterbores attach the adapter to the front face of the 205. It's also got six threaded holes holding studs that allow it to attach to the Klune. I played with the clocking to achieve the rotation I wanted on the 205 while keeping the Klune in it's "neutral" position up front.

On the inside, it's machined to accept a pair of seals---one to keep oil in the Klune, and one to keep oil in the 205. Perhaps a bit redundant, but shouldn't hurt anything. I did pack the cavity between the two seals with grease before assembly.

On the bottom there's a flange welded to the adapter. There's a 3/8" thick plate that bridges from the factory t-case adapter back to this welded flange under the Klune / 205 adapter. That bridge plate has its own flange welded to its rear edge that mates with the welded flange under the adapter.

The whole affair is rubber mounted, with the mounts underneath the bridge plate. I know I discussed the rubber mounts earlier...if you go back through everything, I'm sure you'll find the discussion of the rubber mounts and the crossmember.

There's a potential flaw to all this, but I don't see it as too big a deal. The top two nuts of the Klune / 205 joint just aren't accessible at all with the cab in place. Shouldn't be too big an issue though. When the time comes, I'll just remove the 205 with the Klune still attached, and then separate them afterwards.

So, like I said...nothing special...
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Old 08-04-2011, 09:07 PM   #319 (permalink)
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Ha I just noticed your front drive shaft joints. Are those 1480's? A better question is, are those old 60 shafts?
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Old 08-04-2011, 09:23 PM   #320 (permalink)
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Ha I just noticed your front drive shaft joints. Are those 1480's? A better question is, are those old 60 shafts?
Yep..old Dana 60 stubs---1480 joint at the T-case. I'll run a 1350 at the front axle.

Haven't made my mind up on the rear shaft just yet, though I'm figuring on a 1410 at the rear axle. What I do at the transfer case rear output is kinda up in the air at the moment. It'll most likely be dictated by what sort of operating angle I end up with---something I'll measure up later. Pretty sure I'll have too much angle there to run a non-cv joint continuously, but I might be able to get by without a cv on the front shaft.
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Old 08-06-2011, 06:27 PM   #321 (permalink)
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Driver's side header

After having practiced on the passenger's side header, the driver's side seems to fall in place rather readily. Just an oil filter to work around instead of the starter, but the same process.

I suppose the lack of drama explains why I forgot to take any pictures until everything was done.

Completed driver's side header installed:



I got a head start on the tailpipes also. I'm eager to see what kind of service I get from these flexible couplers:

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Old 08-09-2011, 07:09 PM   #322 (permalink)
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Tailpipes and mufflers

With the headers complete, there's still more tube work to be done--tailpipes.

I really would have preferred to bring the tailpipes together as soon as possible after the header collectors and run a single exhaust back to a large single muffler. Unfortunately, I saw no good way to keep a crossover pipe away from the front driveshaft and up above the bottom of the framerails. Besides that, this plan would require me to buy a large single muffler (expensive). Meanwhile, the 3" Flowmasters from the previous revision were still in decent shape and cluttering up the shop.

So, I see no reason why I can't re-use the two 3" Flowmasters, I've just got to find a simple way to bring the two tailpipes together at some point before the mufflers.

The driver's side tailpipe was a tight squeeze in between the framerail and the NP205 because of how high the 205 is clocked. A 3" tube fits in there fairly comfortably after a few strategically placed "clearance depressions" are put in place:



Passenger's side tailpipe was a lot easier, with far fewer obstacles to work around on that side:



Crossing over the driver's side tailpipe to the passenger's side in front of my cab support crossmember seemed like a natural fit:



This stamped steel "X pipe" assembly seemed like an easy way to join the tailpipes right before the mufflers:



From here, the plan is going to be welding the two 3" Flowmasters together and standing them up vertically behind the cab on the passenger's side.

In the last revision, there was one muffler on each side---right behind the cab window---, so I was constantly listening to the racket from one side all the time. Now, at least all that's going to be further away from my ears. I seldom carry passengers anyway, so they can wear earplugs if they choose to ride along. I'll wait until after the cab is in place before nailing the mufflers in place permanently.

Why run the exhaust vertically? It keeps the exhaust out of deep water, which is always good, but the larger reason is that I just don't have a lot of room to run the exhaust further back over the rear axle. Even if I did, making the tailpipes exit somewhere that they'd be protected from damage would be a challenge. Doesn't suit everybody's tastes, but works for me.
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Old 08-11-2011, 07:03 PM   #323 (permalink)
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Crossover support

Those previous pictures show the crossover pipe temporarily clamped in place in the mockup phase. Here's the cleaned up final version with mounts added to the crossover pipe and to the cab crossmember:



Those red bushings are polyurethane swaybar end link bushings. I used similar parts to support my previous exhaust system with reasonable success, so I figured they were worth a try here also.
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Old 08-11-2011, 07:43 PM   #324 (permalink)
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Exhaust looks nice should sound good to!
I use those little bushing on alot of little things that need to be rubber mounted and seam to hold up great.
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Old 08-14-2011, 08:52 AM   #325 (permalink)
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Moving on to some cab modifications

In an effort to help preserve my sanity, I tend to jump from one area to another at times. After having had my fill of header and exhaust tube work for awhile, I figured getting some work done on the cab might be a worthwhile diversion.

I'd already committed to switching over to 81-87 frontend sheetmetal because I've had my share of issues with the 73-80 style hoods and hinges. The fenders are an easy bolt-on, but the cowl requires a bit of modification to accomodate the arms of the later hood hinges.

Left side:



Right side:



Basically, the large slot had to be cut in the cowl for the hinge arms to drop into, and a number of nuts had to be welded underneath the flange to secure the hinges. I also added that vertical plate to better tie the flange to the cab. I'd already had a cab on another truck tear in that area from the constant flexing of the front sheetmetal, and figured doing a little preventative engineering now would be preferable to a ugly repair job later.
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