BROR K20 Buildup

[BRORSAM]

Originally Posted by jalbrecht42

I am really enjoying this build and reading through your thought process on everything. Very cool.

One question (and this is pretty minor) but does this crossmember mount have upper/lower bushings (or will your new one)? Looks like it doesn't, but I can't see the bottom.

There's one cavity per side for the lower halves of the isolators. With everything in place and tightened down, there won't be anything protruding below the bottom of the crossmember.

There's also a smaler tunnel cut through the middle of the crossmember that gives me access to the drain plug on the Klune using an allen socket and long extension from underneath. You can see that it's aligned with a hole in that black plate directly below the Klune.

Same crossmember will be used when we ditch the Chevy 205 and go to the Ford 205. The mounting plate under the Klune will change to anchor to the transfer case a bit differently, but it's really just going to be a refinement of the concept you see here.

[BRORSAM]

Ordered shafts from ORD, and they arrived in a Dutchman box. Go figure...



Looks like someone slipped me two distinctly different blanks. First thought was to complain, but on the other hand, this might make for an interesting test.




"XR-NUT" has a thread started here, where he did an install of some shafts apparently of the same forging as the upper one in these pics. His wouldn't fit through the hole in the knuckle. Same problem here, but I went about addressing the issue differently than he did. I couldn't bring myself to notching the inside of the knuckle, so I chucked the shafts in the lathe and did a cleanup cut to bring the swing diameter down to a hair under 4.5 inches.

After that cleanup cut, the axles passed through the knuckle hole just fine. Really wasn't a whole lot of material that needed to be removed, but after seeing where the lathe took the material off, I see that I would have done some grinding in all the wrong places if I'd have done the grinding by hand / eyeball.

Once inside the housing, I did not have the issue of the yoke rubbing the interior surface of the "C" as XR-NUT did. Comparing pictures in his thread of where the interference occurred is rather interesting---looks as though the interference he saw at the corners of the yoke are pretty much the same high spots I knocked off with the lathe.

[BRORSAM]

Pretty much everything since post # 107 has been devoted to the buildup of my version of a 14 bolt steering axle. At this point, it's probably not all that much different than what others have done before with the 14 bolt, though I might have a little different take on some aspects of the build.

For those aspiring to build a simple, generic 14 bolt front axle, all that would be left at this point is to bolt on some spindles and hubs, slap a diff cover on, and it would pretty much be ready for the typical leaf spring application. Obviously, I'm going to have to add some of my own custom touches to the housing to work with my radius arm suspension, plus mount that double ended ram to the housing.

If you've been reading this thread for the 14 bolt build, thanks for coming along for the ride. And feel free to stick around for the rest of the truck build. But it's about time I get back to the rest of the truck build---lots more to be done there.

In retrospect, I wonder if I should have made the 14 bolt build a different thread altogether. Oh well, I suppose presenting it as I have (as an integral part of my build) helps demonstrate why it takes me so long to get stuff done...

[BRORSAM]

More to come later, but I have future plans for the 14 bolt.

Teaser pic:



Detroit Locker 14 bolt 30 spline (1.55" major diameter) side gear on the left, and something interesting I found in the Detroit Locker service parts listing on the right. That gear on the right is 39 spline, 1.67" major diameter, with what appears to be a 45 degree pressure angle (unconfirmed at the moment).

Yes, Tech Tim has a 40 spline ARB for the 14 bolt, but I kinda prefer my Detroit. I'm going to try to squeeze that 39 spline side gear into a 14 bolt Detroit (with some machine work to the carrier).

For half the price (roughly) of a 40 spline ARB, I think I could live with an axle shaft that's .040" smaller and has one less spline.

Oh, and if anyone wants to steal the idea and run with it, I say go for it. Better yet, if someone out there has some pull with Yukon, maybe we could talk them into doing some 40 spline Grizzly lockers for the 14 bolt?

Heck, a lot of us would probably settle for side gear blanks semi-finished to fit a Detroit that could be EDM'ed out to the spline count of our choosing.


But, I digress... I have a lot of truck left to build before I get too much deeper into this 39 spline science project of mine.

[houten222]

sorry for jumping in but did you get any pic of what you shaved off the axle shaves

[MNtal]

Where's the axle shaft Diameter / spline count discussion that we had, that you deleted when you axed your other thread???

[BRORSAM]

Originally Posted by MNtal

Where's the axle shaft Diameter / spline count discussion that we had, that you deleted when you axed your other thread???

I'm guessing that whatever we discussed in the original thread is lost, though I don't suppose there's any reason we couldn't revive it here. Would you like to lead the discussion in any particular direction? I'll try to answer anything, even if I have to make stuff up.

[Twinturbo496]

I deleted that thread after Sam agreed to post the entire project starting with its most recent tear down.

It didn't seem like a good idea to keep my random bullshit story alive, since it didn't follow any sort of timeline, and had several inaccurate statements made to provoke Sam into coming out of hiding. The axle discussion was an unfortunate victim, since it was one area of the previous thread that seemed to catch peoples attention more than in this thread... I don't really understand why it hasn't generated more question here. Oh well...

[BRORSAM]

Originally Posted by houten222

sorry for jumping in but did you get any pic of what you shaved off the axle shaves

Not a great pic, but the rusty portion on the corner of the yoke is the area that the lathe touched:



Clearance inside the "C" after this is a bit over 1/16" at the tightest point. Looks close, but doesn't interfere anywhere.

I just can't fathom how anyone would have arrived at this shape for a yoke forging, knowing the dimensions of the "C" forging that it's intended to fit inside of. If they wanted to add material in a worthwhile place, why not beef up the straps that encircle the u-joint cups?

I've got them, I'll run them, I'll let everyone know when I break them.

[BRORSAM]

Originally Posted by BRORSAM

I'm guessing that whatever we discussed in the original thread is lost, though I don't suppose there's any reason we couldn't revive it here. Would you like to lead the discussion in any particular direction? I'll try to answer anything, even if I have to make stuff up.

I suppose I could put off getting back to the rest of the truck just for a moment and try to reconstruct from memory some of what we covered in the original post. It does fit here, because it's something I have every intention of incorporating into the build at some point.

What follows here is part confirmed fact, part speculation. I'll try to note when I'm going out on a limb with speculation. Fair warning for anyone wanting to act upon what they read here. DO YOUR OWN RESEASRCH TO CONFIRM!

The Detroit Lockers for most of our favorite axles (Dana 60, Dana 70, Dana 80, 14 bolt, and Rockwell 2 1/2 ton) all have something in common---the digits "225" in the front half of the assembly part number. For all practical purposes, you could think of that as a "frame size". Most (but not all) Detroit Locker assemblies sharing that "225" in the part number should share some degree of parts interchangeability. And an examination of the "Detroit Locker Service Parts Listing" seems to indicate that to be true.

Now, there's a difference between the classic Detroit Locker design and the newer "soft locker" design. Interchangeability might be possible between the designs with some modifications---I can't say for sure. But judging from comparisons of exploded diagrams of the two designs, it's probably unlikely.

Anyway, the largest side gear I found after hours of searching through the service part listing for any "225" frame size application was the 40 spline side gear from the "Dana Super 60" application. Great...but that's one of those "soft locker" applications, and that side gear may or may not work in the classic Detroit Locker design (the Design used for our beloved 14 bolts).

Dropping back to the classic design, the next largest side gear I found was the item shown in post #154. That's a 39 spline side gear for a 1.67" major diameter shaft. Pressure angle appears to be 45 degree (although that is not yet 100% confirmed). So, it appears we're dealing with something very similar to the established 40 spline hardware, albeit with one less spline and a corresponding decrease of shaft diameter.

Is that going to be worth the effort? If you think the number "40" has some magical meaning when it comes to axle spline count, and aren't interested in the math, then no...probably not. If you're interested in building a stronger 14 bolt than stock and want to keep your Detroit, and don't care that "39" is an odd number, then yes. Consider that the 39 spline shaft should have a body diameter larger than a 16 spline Rockwell---worth trying, in my book.

[Nalin400m]

Originally Posted by BRORSAM

If you've been reading this thread for the 14 bolt build, thanks for coming along for the ride. And feel free to stick around for the rest of the truck build. But it's about time I get back to the rest of the truck build---lots more to be done there.

In retrospect, I wonder if I should have made the 14 bolt build a different thread altogether. Oh well, I suppose presenting it as I have (as an integral part of my build) helps demonstrate why it takes me so long to get stuff done...

MORE 14 BOLT!

[BRORSAM]

Around post #84, I began the installation of the double ended ram on the Dana 60 housing. Now it's time to replicate that effort on the 14 bolt.

That diff cover on the old Dana 60 was about 1/8" thick, which is fairly respectable for a diff cover. The original plan involved mounting one end of the ram directly to the diff cover, with some significant ribbing added to the cover to keep deflection down. Not going to try that with the 14 bolt, as the stock cover is substantially thinner than the Dana 60 cover. So, first step was to procure a beefier diff cover...in this case, a cover fabricated entirely of 3/8" plate. Found a used one on Ebay, so at least that's another custom part I didn't have to build myself.


New problem:

As a reminder, my intention all along has been to use the steering arms cast into the knuckles, not high steer arms. Unfortunately, that bigger ring gear and deep diff cover would have pushed the ram further forward than where it had been on the Dana 60 housing. The solution I chose was to offset the ram slightly to the passenger's side, which also allowed the ram to move rearward. I'm not expecting the offset of the ram and different lengths of left versus right tie rods to create any odd characteristics in the steering.

Ram mount on the diff cover:



View from below:



Passenger's side ram mount:



View from front:


Nevermind that steering arm atop the passenger's side knuckle. Just hadn't yet swapped it out at this point of the build.

Also, I'm not replicating the skidplates underneath the stering cylinder rods that I'd built into the Dana 60 cover. I've got a different plan for guarding the rods this time around but will wait until later in the build to hang it in place.

[GreyFox-ZR2]

That 14b is sweet.... I want 1 lol

p.s. your fab work and explanation is amazing

[K5runner@hotmail.com]

Maybe too little too late, but what knuckles are you using? Because the Dodge steering knuckles have the steering arm casting about an 1+" taller.

[BRORSAM]

Originally Posted by K5runner@hotmail.com

Maybe too little too late, but what knuckles are you using? Because the Dodge steering knuckles have the steering arm casting about an 1+" taller.

I just recycled the knuckles off of the old Dana 60---most everything from the knuckles on out were pulled off of the old axle.

Don't get me wrong... I would have MUCH preferred to get the ram up higher. However, during the mockup it started looking as though the tie rods in a high steer application might have gotten into the bottom of the framerails at full compression. Can't allow that to happen, and wasn't quite ready to chop the entire snout off of the frame as you've done.

I'm learning that I'm working with a moving target here though, and things could change in the future. The ram setup I have here will work fine to get the truck up and running. Once I have some time on the front suspension, I'll have a better appreciation for its range of motion. It's entirely likely that high steer could become a reality in the future once I get a better feel for what hits and what clears, and under what circumstances.

I'll let you in on a little secret: I didn't own a tubing bender or have access to one until I started this build. The little tube work I'll have here will serve as my introduction to the tube bending world. Once I gain a bit more experience and confidence with the bender, a whole new realm of possibilities are going to open up. I'm not against the concept of doing a full tubular front clip---maybe the tubular equivalent of yours, maybe something along the line of Poorboy's.

Still, that's a lot of work for a little bit of tie rod clearance. Not going to happen during this build, but i do have another of these frames out back...

Back to the Dodge knuckles---I was not aware of the difference in the steering arm location. Too late at this point in the build. If I make a change from here, that tie rod has to get more than just an inch higher to make the fab work worthwhile.

One more thought...there's an easier, more fun way to get the tie rod higher: bigger tires. That's something I wanted anyway. And that won't just move the tie rod higher, it will get the axles, transfer case, and frame higher too. Can't lose with that plan...

[BRORSAM]

Originally Posted by GreyFox-ZR2

That 14b is sweet.... I want 1 lol

p.s. your fab work and explanation is amazing

Thanks! I really appreciate the compliments...from you and all the others who have expressed similar thoughts.

Something I've really wanted to do with this thread is to provide a thourough explanation of my thought process. Can't help it, it's just the way my brain works. There's a lot of stuff I'm doing here that's been done before by others (particularly the 14 bolt build), but part of my personal mission here is to try to take some of the mystery out of it so more people have a better grasp of the process.

And if I accidentally drop in some tech that no one's seen or thought of before, so be it. We're all better off it it drives discussion of what kind of support we want or need from the aftermarket.

[BRORSAM]

How did I manage to get this deep into this build without sharing the tire and wheel plan? Let's fix that now...

Per post #3, the initial tire and wheel combo consisted of 39" Boggers on el cheapo steel spoke wheels, with inner tubes to serve duty in place of true double beadlocks. That prevented me from throwing tires completely off of the wheels, but anywhere below 12psi and I was in danger of spinning the wheels inside the tires.

Looking around the yard, it's hard to overlook this little detail:



Essentially, I own two trucks, and I'm putting a lot of time, money, and effort into this one (the one on the left). The one on the right is built with spare parts and leftovers from the one on the left. So, it seems perfectly fitting to me to borrow all the best parts to hang on the "good" truck. So, the one on the right "donates" its 42" Swampers and unmodified Humvee 8 bolt wheels for the cause.

[BRORSAM]

I've never been the type to use an expensive custom wheel on my trucks. In my world, a wheel is an expendable item. I don't want to dump a ton of money into expensive wheels just to see them get bent / stapled / folded / mutilated. So, I always seeem to lean towards an inexpensive steel wheel.

The Humvee wheel is an excellent value in that regard. They can be found for cheap, are rated for 2850 pound load, and give you the double beadlock feature. However, its downside for many is the 7" backspacing.

It's not terribly difficult to cut the center out and weld in a replacement, but for me, adding the cost of the new center pushes the finished piece out of my intended price range (i.e....cheap as possible..).

So---options for running the unmodified Humvee wheel include:
1) Using the DRW Dana 60 hub
2) Using the SRW Dana 60 hub, and add an aftermarket wheel spacer

Option 1 adds at least 2 inches of otherwise unnecessary scrub radius. I'm more than a little bit particular about steering quality, and I generally make every effort possible to make sure the scrub radius situation doesn't become any worse than it has to be. So, the DRW hubs won't work for me.

Option 2 has been done before. Problem is, most aftermarket wheel spacers have an inside diameter that's much larger than the pilot surface of the hub, which means the studs bear the burden of the load. To be on the safe side, I considered using the SRW hubs and building my own wheel spacers. That way I'd be able to make the inside diameter whatever I wanted to match the wheel pilot diameter on the hub. But while researching that option, a third possibility came to mind...

[BRORSAM]

Here's option 3...



What we have here is a DRW hub with the outer flange machined off, and the body diameter turned down to about 4.7 inches...just the right size to fit through the center of the Humvee wheel. Then I machined an aluminum spacer with an I.D. a little under 4.7 inches, and I shrink fit the aluminum spacer onto the hub. The threaded holes in the hub brake flange normally used for mounting the brake rotor were bored out---now the brake rotor attaching bolts go through the rotor, through the brake flange on the hub, and they thread into the aluminum spacer. The spacer transfers the load to the hub over a very broad area, and the shrink fit helps resist any potential rotation of the spacer on the hub.

So, instead of putting money into the expendable item (the wheel), I put some money and time into the hub instead...something that shouldn't be affected even if I should trash a wheel.

So...basically we've created an "in-between" hub---something with a wheel flange in between the SRW hub and the DRW hub---something specific to the Humvee wheel. This should be fine for a temporary solution. I'll be building my own hubs and spindles from scratch when the time comes to convert to the 40 spline outer shafts. But that's a project for a later date...

But it raises an interesting question. Why isn't anything I ever want to put on this truck the right size as is?

[Make it or break it]

Great build. One question though. If scrub was a concern why didn't you build the 14 bolt wider? That would have been a win-win, lighter steering, better handling and less stress on the hub/spindle/kingpins and steering parts. It seems you put so much thought into this there must be a reason you didn't build wider.

[BRORSAM]

Originally Posted by Make it or break it

Great build. One question though. If scrub was a concern why didn't you build the 14 bolt wider? That would have been a win-win, lighter steering, better handling and less stress on the hub/spindle/kingpins and steering parts. It seems you put so much thought into this there must be a reason you didn't build wider.

Good points. Let me start by clarifying my thought process:

Most of the typical things we do to 4 wheel drive trucks (wider wheels and tires, wheels with less offset to help clear leaf springs....) change the relationship between the tire contact patch and the kingpin axis (the scrub radius), usually all in the direction of increasing scrub radius over the stock setup. It's rare when we make modifications that drastically reduce scrub radius (going to a taller tire without the tire becoming wider, or going to a wheel with more backspacing).

Back to the specifics of my build. I've got roughly 1/4" of clearance between the inside wheel bead and the steering arm on the knuckle. Without going to a larger diameter wheel or hacking the arm off of the knuckle, there's precious little I can do to move the wheel any further inward.

That being said, it's generally a lot easier to increase scrub radius than to decrease it. So, my objective here is to do the build with as little scrub radius as I could build into it in a practical fashion. If I find during testing that I need more scrub radius, the fix is easy....add wheel spacers. If I find I have too much scrub radius, then the fix isn't nearly so easy---major changes would likely be in order.

I really like your idea of widening the axle, especially with respect to taking some load off of the kingpins---but that axle housing length increase would have to be accompanied by some other change to get the scrub down. Widening the axle without making a change in the wheel / hub / spindle / knuckle combination wouldn't have changed the scrub, near as I can figure...unless I'm missing something.

I wouldn't mind a larger diameter wheel, but stepping up to a 20 inch wheel moves us into the category of wheels and tires that are waaaay too heavy for my purposes. Personally, I'd like to see tires molded for an 18" rim, but I'm not going to hold my breath on that one.

[Make it or break it]

Wheel to knuckle clearance was what I missed. I was thinking the wheels direct on SRW hubs, moving the centerline of the tire closer to the kingpins.

[Twinturbo496]

Like most engineers, Sam responds well to negative feedback. Since I don't own a 4x4 he doesn't take my suggestions seriously. You are all fucking up by telling him how nice this build is going, and how great it looks.

So:

Can't anyone on this site do something to convince him that this K20 has no chance at getting voted into TTC without real tires?

He has several local's who would buy the damn near new 42's and the 75% 39.5's He also has several chevy D60's and rockwells that he will never use, and detroit lockers, arb's, blah blah... if he would just SELL some of the crap he will NEVER use, he can justify buying the right tires for this vehicle.

Someone well respected (or hated) on this site needs to provoke Sam enough to get him off his ass and order the right tires for the truck NOW, so he doesn't have to change everything later to make them work.

[MNtal]

SAM,

This Build is Awesome, the Attention to Detail is astounding, the Tech you are posting Is black art that I nor friends of mine that can do it would share, but your build is missing some flair...

If TTC is the end game you better step up to some bigger rubber, 42"s are for DD's & Street able jeeps...

You are also going to want to consider full belly skids, Boat sides, Rear Steer and a F___ of allot less Sheet metal...

So for an Unknown without a large group of supporters to vote him in, It would take a rig like Jason P's RIP, DOZER's RIP, O.G. Brook Green's FREAK, Randy's Flaming Cheeto I or II, Poorboy’s Rig, K5Runners Bluggy, etc... to attract the attention of voters. Not saying it couldn't happen, alot of rigs made the top 50 Mag by submitting a entry form on time, a few made the top 10 from the support of friends and family. Two Real Underdogs won this year because of driving style and Drive to do it...

You could make top ten with a little luck, but its not gonna happen with 42" rubber...

[BRORSAM]

Originally Posted by Twinturbo496

Like most engineers, Sam responds well to negative feedback. Since I don't own a 4x4 he doesn't take my suggestions seriously. You are all fucking up by telling him how nice this build is going, and how great it looks.

So:

Can't anyone on this site do something to convince him that this K20 has no chance at getting voted into TTC without real tires?

He has several local's who would buy the damn near new 42's and the 75% 39.5's He also has several chevy D60's and rockwells that he will never use, and detroit lockers, arb's, blah blah... if he would just SELL some of the crap he will NEVER use, he can justify buying the right tires for this vehicle.

Someone well respected (or hated) on this site needs to provoke Sam enough to get him off his ass and order the right tires for the truck NOW, so he doesn't have to change everything later to make them work.

Let's see....first the camshaft was too small. Now the tires are too small. What's next...crankshaft stroke too small? (Wait...I kinda agree there....)

And the Rockwells need to stay put for awhile, if only to keep the threat alive.