Boycott Competition On Public Land

[dumass]

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...hreadid=146032

OK EVERYBODY IT'S TIME TO GET PISSED

Do we want to be responsible for killing offroading? Let's see some top 10 balls by POLITELY insisting on a private venue for ALL future competitions.

You're writing history, do you want it to read


CLOSED DUE TO COMPETITION?


I won't be in Cedar on public land.

[Go2Guy]

That's a long thread and worthy for anyone who has not read it yet.

IMO, there is more to be gained form taking positive action rather than taking the inactive approach of boycotting an event on public land. Positive action can be in many forms

getting active in organizations

getting involved in clubs

giving money is nice, labor is better

help at the comps or any event /trailride

educate the uneducated (people who don't know any better or the few slobs etc that show up and don't respect the resources)

take note of perceived problems and constructively make the promoters aware of issues

I think you get the idea where I'm going here. Boycotting has the same result of closing your eyes and wishing it would go away rather than improving the situations. I/we the fourwheeling community appreciate your help.

Ken

[Go2Guy]

I'm pretty sure Cedar city... if that's what you are referring to is the three peaks area which is private property.

[TEX]

I agree that a boycott is going to be pretty fruitless. Even if it "worked", what exactly have you accomplished? Nothing. I'd rather spend my energy building something up instead of tearing down someone else's work. If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. We have problems, now let's see about some SOLUTIONS.



TEX

[GRIDWNC]

Holly double-posting!!!!!!!!!! One isn't enough?

[Attila]

Three Peaks in Cedar City is an OHV park specifically set aside by the BLM for our type of activities. It's fenced around, improved, easily accessable, plenty of parking. I think it's a great idea and needs to be implemented in other areas around the west.

[RedBullJeep]

PERPETUATING THIS DOUBLE POST as I don't know which will survive!

Ken,
You could not have said it better...Active Action gives far better results than Passive Action in a case like this.
I feel that they are working hard to put on a great event and still be mindful of land issues...yet, the promoters are not as well manned (and womaned) as they would like to be, so policing these events is not as easy as they would like.
On the other hand, everyone always looks at the negatives. Does anyone ever stop to think of the positives? The events bring MILLIONS of dollars every year into our sport, they bring hundreds of thousands of dollars to local communities, they push the manufacturers to get involved, and they provide a great entertainment outlet for wheelers and non-wheelers alike...I am sure people could find tons of other positve things that come from RockCrawling events and to keep those positives coming, you need to SUPPORT the events yet ask for some more care when it comes to putting them on.

I will add one more thing to Ken's list of what you can do:
Write a brief message to the event promoter(s) saying that you are not pleased with the negative stuff you are hearing and ask them to get more in line with keeping our lands open. Don't give them shit about how they are doing things...Give them strategic and logistic suggestions to make things better.


Don't perpetuate the dividing of "our side" as that's exactly what the greens want. The more fighting we do amongst ourselves, the more ammo they have that is more effective.

[withamc]

No - one isn't enough. Even two isn't enough. I'm starting to wonder if dumbass doesn't have some sort of hidden agenda.

[Lance]

dumass - at least your name fits you.

[Dirty Harry]

Originally posted by RedBullJeep
Does anyone ever stop to think of the positives? The events bring MILLIONS of dollars every year into our sport, they bring hundreds of thousands of dollars to local communities, they push the manufacturers to get involved, and they provide a great entertainment outlet for wheelers and non-wheelers alike...

None of that will matter though if the competitions get public land closed off. I would like to see more of those MILLIONS of dollars spent fighting land closures and educating the public.

Not really disagreeing with you Dustin as much as adding to what you are saying. I think that the fact that people within our community are starting to discuss these issues instead of writing promoters a blank check is a good start and I'm confident that with some work the competitions can be improved to everyones' benefit.

[Arizona Zuk]

Originally posted by dumass
I won't be in Cedar on public land.

does that mean Jason Tharp will need a spotter?

Dave

[dumass]

damn straight, pm me if you want the job Jason's a great guy.

lance, you are correct, I must be a dumbass (that's DuMass joke wasted) to think that for $7,000.00 (if you take first place) it isn't worth killing the recreational part of the sport.

My Agenda: being able to wheel AND compete

if I must choose I would prefer to wheel public lands and compete on private land vs. wheel and compete on private land when we get ourselves locked out.

Are you guys blind or in denial, we're handing our asses to the greens for $7 grand IF we get 1st.

what did you make so far this year Dustin, count up the purse money and sponsorship. How about you Lance?

I'm sorry but when the choice comes for me I clearly don't have as much to lose as you "big money" guys and I do want to compete. I'm not looking to win when I drive and neither is Jason, most of us losers are there to have fun (yes we're all sick) and don't care about the money. I am not willing to give up Moab to compete. Zuk I met you on goldbar with 6'10 before i got married on Lion's Back last Sept., what was that view worth?

How many $7000 winners would have to hand you ALL their cash for your favorite trail?

I'm not confused enough to think that at this late date Ranch can find another venue before Cedar City so will we kill the area there too? Mitigating the impact is NOT the answer, eliminating it is the only solution that the greens will accept.

Will it eliminate public land competitions or 4 wheeling?



Sorry for the multi posts I'll pay to fix it if necessary, Lance, this should be sticky everywhere. Yes $

Jim

[dumass]

Originally posted by Attila
Three Peaks in Cedar City is an OHV park specifically set aside by the BLM for our type of activities. It's fenced around, improved, easily accessable, plenty of parking. I think it's a great idea and needs to be implemented in other areas around the west.

Is this true? We were told that some of the courses two seasons ago "didn't exist" before the comp. Specifically I think it was b3 the one through the trees was cut from the existing trail to the rock face, I presume "groomed" is the operative term. And that as a result the greens were not happy. If it's for "our type of activities" thats' great and should be implemented everywhere. My question is what are the limits of our impact and are we behaving ourselves?

We ARE being given enough rope to hang ourselves.

[Big Rich]

First I'm one of those who tries to find private land first, but has had to settle for public lands. Now public lands are not used for free and we are under guidelines when we use these lands. As for MoonRocks, I opened it up with the first competition last year, and that was a test, as was RCAA's event there this year. BLM's biggest reason for closing it down has more to do them than what we have done. It is not closed for the daily wheeler, or weekend runs, only to organized competitions, and NO one is more unhappy about this than myself. I invested alot to get it open and did not get a chance to recover that cost. I do not hold RCAA or anyone to blame for the closure, except BLM, for not allowing us to work thru their perceived problems. I have been looking for new areas in northern Nevada with BLM blessings (I'll just need to make the major investments all over again) as long as we find those areas out of the counties with the most populations (another story).

As far as Cedar City, It will not be closed down. I was the local Cedar City club president when the first comp was held there. It is county land that has been planned out as a multi use area, with the 4x4er's in mind. The city and county welcome the events because of the amount of $$$$ the events bring to the area.

I might if need be go into more depth on the issues that I addressed here, but all the finger pointing, as far as RCAA and MoonROcks is concerned it B.S...... find something else to bitch about, unless you have first hand knowledge of the facts.

Yes, I getting tired of all the crap, and I sure someone will tell me to stop defending someone else or contentrate on other things, but this is about what I trying to do as much as anyone else here.

Thanks
Rich

[withamc]

Originally posted by dumass
damn straight, pm me if you want the job Jason's a great guy.

lance, you are correct, I must be a dumbass (that's DuMass joke wasted) to think that for $7,000.00 (if you take first place) it isn't worth killing the recreational part of the sport.

My Agenda: being able to wheel AND compete

if I must choose I would prefer to wheel public lands and compete on private land vs. wheel and compete on private land when we get ourselves locked out.

Are you guys blind or in denial, we're handing our asses to the greens for $7 grand IF we get 1st.

what did you make so far this year Dustin, count up the purse money and sponsorship. How about you Lance?

I'm sorry but when the choice comes for me I clearly don't have as much to lose as you "big money" guys and I do want to compete. I'm not looking to win when I drive and neither is Jason, most of us losers are there to have fun (yes we're all sick) and don't care about the money. I am not willing to give up Moab to compete. Zuk I met you on goldbar with 6'10 before i got married on Lion's Back last Sept., what was that view worth?

How many $7000 winners would have to hand you ALL their cash for your favorite trail?

I'm not confused enough to think that at this late date Ranch can find another venue before Cedar City so will we kill the area there too? Mitigating the impact is NOT the answer, eliminating it is the only solution that the greens will accept.

Will it eliminate public land competitions or 4 wheeling?



Sorry for the multi posts I'll pay to fix it if necessary, Lance, this should be sticky everywhere. Yes $

Jim

You're in denial if you think that the greens will be satisfied if they drive competitions off of public lands. That only gets rid of a small portion of the problem in their eyes.
Instead, we need to hold those promoters accountable if they screw up. You're unhappy with RCAA? Don't compete with RCAA, go with CalRocs instead. If enough people refuse to patronize the ones doing the damage (if indeed it's their fault) they'll either get the message or fade away.

[dumass]

Originally posted by withamc
Instead, we need to hold those promoters accountable if they screw up.

Forgive my ignorance, but I believe that is exactly what I'm suggesting. If I don't show, and you dont show and Lance and John and Tracy and.......talk to your sponsors, I bet they'll back your play. How long does a 4wheel drive business stay in business with only boulevard cruisers for customers who don't even have the dream of seeing the wilderness in their rig anymore? All you guys building rock buggies start designing patio furniture if you want to use your bender.

And no not just RCAA, Ranch is no better or worse than anyone else. Rich, Bob, Craig etc. EROCC is the exception. All events on private land (I believe?). Rich just did one at Avalanche Ranch, Bob has one coming up and Ranch has the ladies event scheduled there. I've never been to an offroad park and I really don't want that to be my only choice.

Isn't Fernly private? What private land is available?

Me, I'm just one of the people needed so the big guys have someone to beat (can't win without a loser), I'm good with that. I have a blast and it doesnt cost much.

Anyway, as a loser I won't be missed if replaced by another loser and the beat goes on.

If however the top ten speak(or the sponsors) all promoters listen. This is true of all things motorsport. Money talks and no champions=no sponsors and revenue.

Trail runs will still be a target for the greens, but for sheer carnage competition rules....for better or worse. If your trail rides look like competition, I want to comeI hope you don't roll someone on every obstacle sober.

[GRIDWNC]

Originally posted by dumass


How long does a 4wheel drive business stay in business with only boulevard cruisers for customers who don't even have the dream of seeing the wilderness in their rig anymore?
Isn't

Actually, pavement queens are what keep the shops in business. By ratio there are far more of them spending their $$ on googles over and over, than there are of hardcore wheelers. When I first got my Rig (though I don't compete) I spent far more on it in a year than I do now. Initially I wanted it to look good and function. Now I go for function and figure I make it look good!! But I digress, go to any mainstream shop at any given time of the day and the line will be primarily weekend warriors who don't frequent competitions or curb queens. The specialty shops are smaller and will always have the extremists as customers because they KNOW the product and it's application and that makes for good customer relations.

[Lance]

Bottom line, you don't ban all recreational four wheelers from public land because one doofus dumps gear oil on the ground - the same should go for comp organizations. Just as there are responsible wheelers out there using public land, there are responsible promoters. Sure, the irresponsible ones need to be held accountable, but an all out boycott of all orgs on public land is asinine.

[Go2Guy]

Aside from what Lance, Redbull and others have so clearly stated, if you read the entire threads and responses it shows that there is room for improvement with manpower etc but that the whole moonrocks thing got blown out of proportion relative to what actually happened.

No promotor has done anything blatantly stupid or reckless (at least in this thread) Bottom line- it was closed to huge comps only because huge comps were deemed (subjectively, too) that the big event was too much for this particular area.

Big Rich gets Kudo's for developing the moonrocks site, it's still there for the rec. guys and now he needs to look to the next site in the area for comps- in concert with the BLM. I think Fernley has excellent potential and really like the existing courses.

Read the whole deal again- take time to digest it- there is no boycott warranted or justified. Lets spend our energies getting involved in a positive way

[TEX]

Originally posted by dumass
talk to your sponsors, I bet they'll back your play.

Why not talk to YOUR sponsors about what they can do to help the situation? Maybe your sponsor could BUY some land & lease it out to the sanctioning bodies. Then, they'd be able to get top billing as the primary sponsor of every event, and you wouldn't have to compete on public ground


TEX

[Ed A. Stevens]

Originally posted by Go2Guy
Aside from what Lance, Redbull and others have so clearly stated, if you read the entire threads and responses it shows that there is room for improvement with manpower etc but that the whole moonrocks thing got blown out of proportion relative to what actually happened.

An accurate summary of the witch hunt, "there is room for improvement with manpower, etc.".


Thanks for reading through all the B.S.

If a fabricator builds you something for the buggy, and you break it, do you give up on all fabricators?

Do you boycott all fabricators? No?

You redefine the needs of the project, and let the fabricator try again, or you take the project to another fabricator. Failure is an underrated learning tool, but the lesson is effective only if you go back and try again.

I recommend the same learning process be applied to competition promoters (I dislike the "one strike" rule). The BLM ruling regarding Moonrocks looks like a "one strike" rule. Any chance for a promoter to "try again" (maybe on a smaller scale)?

I think it's great to read this discussed where it needs to be considered, by folks who can help the promoters keep public land wheeling opportunity legal (for casual and competition recreation).

There is no better practice (for confidance or humiliation) than wheeling the same rock course used in a competition, a week or two after watching the pro's. One attraction of rockcrawling is the ability of the casual wheeler to tackle the same challenge as the competitor.

Even the most ardent motorized enthusiast may never drive on Daytona Raceway, or Indy or LeMans, but the rockcrawler can drive the JV competition courses a week after the event. Millions of enthusiasts watch the Indy 500, and none are swamping BBS websites with questions on how to build Indy Car replicas in their garage.

If you lose the public course access appeal you risk losing the enthusiast who chooses to be more than a spectator (more than simply sucking suds in a grandstand), you risk losing the enthusiast who spends money trying to emulate the competition challenge. You risk losing the enthusiast who rewards your sponsors by purchasing their products (to better their own performance) to challenge the same trails as the competitor. It may be in the best interest of sponsors to keep public lands legally open for competition and causal wheeling (something else to think about)?

Happy Trails!

[dumass]

Thanks for the "cooler heads prevailing"

Boycott, I guess not. Private land? Why not buy it? I'm game(this IS how I make money) but return on investment means clubs etc. not investors, like me.

Insist on private land you should.[yoda]

It's getting greener everyday, private land in AZ still has to deal with pygmy owl problems etc.
But if you noticed on the way to Moab, you can buy condos at Wilson Arch now. Which do you think will make me more money?

Long story short,
IT'S NOT THE PROMOTERS FAULT THAT BLM IS RUN BY ASSHOLES

IT IS THE PROMOTERS FAULT THAT THEY ARE BEING PLAYED BY BLM AND THE GREENS

Am I the only one not surprised that these assholes are setting us up to screw ourselves?
Will we never learn?
Is it really necessary to hold our "big dick" contests on public land?

[bob91yj]

What about us little dick guys that like a little competition, but have been priced out of/outgrown private land?

[dumass]

Originally posted by bob91yj
What about us little dick guys that like a little competition, but have been priced out of/outgrown private land?

How about this
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...hreadid=150148

non-profits always get a discount on venues and it's less likely that tree-huggers are going to alienate their supporters by targeting an event like this.

No, I'm not suggesting that Ranch and Rich sponsor a kid in india or whatever to "legitimize" their events.

[bob91yj]

That looks like fun. I'd probably give something like that a shot.

I have more fun at the "feel good events". Muscular Dystrophy used to have a run in SoCal, got cancelled last year due to insurance (or so I've heard). It sure looked like the kids had a good time at the event, first/only trip to the desert for most of them.]

Looks like the Disabled Vets are going to have a run this October, similar format to the MDA run.

I think it is the organizers job reponsibility to insure the area is cleaned up following any event, be it on public or private land. Slobs come with the territory of hosting an event, unfortunate, but still to be expected.