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Old 07-15-2003, 08:51 AM   #1 (permalink)
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uroc payout sucks!

I know that there are a lot of competitors that have enjoyed the uroc season, and most of the stuff they have done. but what about their payouts? have you noticed at the awards ceremony they never announce what the competitors are winning? that's because they pay crap! I asked some of the competitors what their payouts were, and I couldn't believe it.

so whats the deal uroc? how do expect to rule the rock crawling world when your payout is less than HALF what rcaa pays? you guys hype 37 rollovers per event and expect teams to trash their rigs, and then reward them with insulting checks at the end of the weekend. I saw a lot of disgust at the awards ceremony in farmington regarding series checks, etc. Id be willing to bet you wont see some competitors return next year unless you step it up. rock crawling is a expensive sport, and your dancing chickens need to be compensated!!!!

hell I even think bob hazel is paying out a $4500 for first place in each class, regardless of how many show up. Im willing to bet competitor attendance at uroc will suffer next year unless they step things up, at the very least to rcaa standards.

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Old 07-15-2003, 09:14 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Sooo...

to give your claims some substantiation...

What have been the RRCA payouts and what is their formula to arrive at those figures?

Bob is not the best example- his past payouts were meager, he's stepped up this yr to try to grow his events but it doesn't take a math whiz to figure out Bob's "Investing"/losing some significant money. I don't expect any promoter to lose money- at least on average. Bob also has higher entry fees. Don't get me wrong- I enjoy running his events too.

As a UROC competitor the payout seemed to be within reason. With their sideshow opportunities I personally came out pretty well with them despite never cracking top 5 all season. They've also invested in helping promote the sport nationally as well as the teams themselves thru various methods.

Personally I think UROC is running a class show and has brought a lot to the sport in the last two yrs. Perhaps RRCA has succeeded in adding more sponsor money to the pot- I don't know- can you give more info to let us know where you are coming from??

It's not always about money either- UROC has a rep for being a more welcoming body who promptly replies to drivers and hear's their pleas. RRCA suffers from a different reputation which I won't go into.

So go ahead- educate us
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Old 07-15-2003, 09:23 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I don't know how they come up with their payouts, but here's what the ink on the checks we recieved in the last two weeks said:

RCAA Cedar City, 2nd place: $5000
UROC Farmington, 4th place: $900

Like I said, I don't know how they all come up with their numbers, but I figured I'd throw some of the numbers we have recieved lately.
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Old 07-15-2003, 10:03 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Maybe it's not that UROC is paying too little, but that others may be paying too much. Like Ken mentioned, you can't have the promoters LOSING money just to beef up the purse. Pretty soon, you'll wind up like we are in mud. There was a bidding war to draw the best racers, eventually everyone but the top group went belly up. Now, that same group that used to pay $5k to win IN THE 80's pays $1,000 to win in front of 100,000 spectators & a national TV audience. Eventually, BFG & Goodyear are going to move on & put their money elsewhere (they'll never leave the sport completely, but they'll scale back just like they did with desert racing) and where will that leave everyone? With any luck, groups like UROC will still be around thanks to them being fiscally responsible.


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Old 07-15-2003, 10:22 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Just found this on the UROC website. I do know that purse is 110% of entry fees. The numbers seem to add up.
14. Purse Split for Both Classes (or as determined by event promoter)
Sponsor product, contingency money or cash may be issued to any and all finishing positions.
1st 54%
2nd 26%
3rd 15%
4th 10%
5th 5%
6th -10th Sponsorís product or cash may be issued.
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Old 07-15-2003, 10:29 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Oh, forgot to add, there were 41 unlimited entries at the last uroc event, with a $200 entry fee, so lance's check sounds right.
If they would have placed 2nd, the check would have been $2340.

How many entries are they getting at RRCA in unlimited?
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Old 07-15-2003, 10:29 AM   #7 (permalink)
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straight from the UROC rule adendum given out in farmington.


1st 54%
2nd 26%
3rd 15%
4th 10%
5th 5%
6-10th sponsor's product's or cash may be issued.


so if 4th place was $900

and all the percentages add up to they're 110% payout...

so let's see here.... if 10% is 900, the purse must have been 9k..

1st 54% = 4860
2nd 26% = 2340
3rd 15% = 1350
4th 10% = 900
5th 5% = 450



*EDIT*

now what do you think those of us who keep coming back, event after event, and never win shit are saying? do you really think we're crying because we got "too small" of a check for doing somethign we love? yea, i'm bitching because i didn't get paid to do something i chose to do...

hell i'll probably spend money out of my own pocket again all next year, putting huge ammounts of miles on my tow rig... and i still won't bitch if i don't win!!!
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Old 07-15-2003, 10:44 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by ROCKSFORBRAINS
Just found this on the UROC website. I do know that purse is 110% of entry fees. The numbers seem to add up.
14. Purse Split for Both Classes (or as determined by event promoter)
Sponsor product, contingency money or cash may be issued to any and all finishing positions.
1st 54%
2nd 26%
3rd 15%
4th 10%
5th 5%
6th -10th Sponsorís product or cash may be issued.

looks like we're literally on the same page here peter
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Old 07-15-2003, 10:51 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by DSI



looks like we're literally on the same page here peter
Ya I see we posted at the same time
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Old 07-15-2003, 11:05 AM   #10 (permalink)
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As for payouts...a lot of teams do not yet realise that prize money in "professional sports" is just the icing on the cake. There are not too many pro sports that actually consider prize money as a way of making a living or even to pay for the season. If you want to pay for these things, don't bitch for more prize money...bitch at yourself for not taking more time to chase sponsors...that's where the money is.
Walker summer it up in his gold medal acceptance speech this weekend in Cedar when he said something like..."I won a ton of desert races including the Baja 1000 and never got a paycheck this big"...
I think for the times and the sport, the current payouts are fair. Like TEX noted, the promoters have to survive in order for that bonus money (the prize payout) to continue...

As for the value of the prize money versus the carnage PROMISED and DELIVERED by UROC...that is another story...
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Old 07-15-2003, 11:23 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by RedBullJeep


As for the value of the prize money versus the carnage PROMISED and DELIVERED by UROC...that is another story...
Dustin I agree with you here. I would also add that if a competitor chooses to run UROC with the carnage risks that they admit they strive for, then the competitor shouldn't complain. The risk is there, but the decision to take that risk lies entirely on the competitors shoulders.
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Old 07-15-2003, 11:25 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Just a note about carnage...

IMO... and I could be wrong, but suspect I am not, RRCA and UROC deliver comparable opportunities and actual carnage at their events.

I think UROC is more visible/vulnerable in regards to perception as they are using what already exists in their promotions to attract gate attendance. I have spoken with some people who felt slighted by these tactics. I do not, I see it as promotion and nothing else, and welcome promotion that helps the growth of our sport.

That said, the latest UROC event (and Perhaps RRCA too) were much more technical IMO with less carnage while remaining very challenging. Just thought I'd share another point of view
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Old 07-15-2003, 12:06 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Yes...but

The problerm with PROMISING carnage is that you will have to continue DELIVERING it through the years in bigger and bigger ways...Right now, I do not think it is affordable to most teams to play at that level. Knowing that UROC wishes to live up to a strong balance ot technical and carnage at least gives the teams enough of a heads-up to not go if they cannot afford to get bashed.
As for a similarity between UROC and RCAA...I havent done enough UROC to know. I do know that Cedar RCAA was super low on the carnage scale, yet you can still see a big difference in scores showing the technical side. All I heard this last weekend from teams was that UROC Farmington was the most brutal ever...Craig and the Patey's lived up to their promise. Is that a bad thing? Maybe, maybe not...but the money currently in this sport cannot support too much more of that.
For our team, we are right now deciding what to do for next season. Red Bull has to make the decision on whether they want to pay for us to continually beat the truck (which is good for promotion) or whether they want us to focus on the technical side and not attend events like UROC that are taking the WWF approach (which I say with total respect as the WWF is a $ maker).
Somehow, I think Red Bull will choose carnage and that's cool with me as it is fun...I just have to be able to afford it.
What most people do not realise is that you cannot count drivers like Schaffer, Bundrant, Blume, Paulie into the "carnage quotient" as there is a big difference in the skill of those guys versus the rest of us. It is obvious when you see the standings who can handle the high-risk courses without too much damage. Unfortunatly, those that end up with the carnage are most often the guys that cannot afford it. Thnk about it...carnage is promotion...the problem is that that many of the little guys are used as the beating post for this promotion.

So that is my direction in posting these comments. The top guys are going to go as of course, they can handle it with the skill and quality of vehicles. The question is..."Is the value of what MOST teams get out of a high carnage event currently offset by the financial rewards available in this sport? For teams like yours and mine, the answer might be completely different than the other 60% of the field.
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Old 07-15-2003, 12:16 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Re: Yes...but

Quote:
Originally posted by RedBullJeep
events like UROC that are taking the WWF approach
It's funny that you would say this as WWF & Pace Motorsports were two things that came to mind as I was reading your post & a couple above. One other downside of carnage is the "clown" aspect of the sport. A lot of people don't want to be promoted as clowns or sideshow acts. That's what has become of monster truck "racing", tough trucks, etc. Right now, rock crawling is seen as a serious competitive sport as opposed to an exhibition in destruction. And while the latter may be fun & profitable, I'm sure there are those who are uncomfortable with that image.

On a side note, doesn't carnage sort of stop the action? I know some of the casual fans think it's kinda cool, but the LAST thing I want at one of my mud races is a rollover. Aside from the potential for injury, you're looking at an automatic delay in the "show" that I would just as soon live without.


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Old 07-15-2003, 12:31 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I believe that RCAA gets a large amount of it's purse from it's event sponsors Goodyear and Skyjacker. I would think it's safe to say that Bob Hazel is doing the same thing. I highly doubt Bob is paying $4500 out of his own pocket to first place when there are only 9 competitors.

I enjoy all of the different events, but it isn't a cheap sport. And the prize money is a huge factor for Mike and I in deciding what events we are going to run. We are currently planning our 2004 season, and I can assure you that prize money will be one of the larger factors in deciding what events we will attend.

Last year RCAA paid out $23,000 for winning first place in the series. That's very respectable money, and with prizes like that, they will continue to attract the top names in the sport. I agree somewhat with rockin that UROC needs to step it up - They have the ability and backing to get some big name sponsors (they have Toyo tires?) to up the payouts to make it more lucrative.

Yes, Walker did say that he had never won a check that big in his career of desert racing... But he also said he LOVED getting a check that big!
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Old 07-15-2003, 01:13 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Yes, Walker did say that he had never won a check that big in his career of desert racing... But he also said he LOVED getting a check that big!
Point noted

Still, there can only be a couple of teams making prize money...that's a tough bet so in the long run, you need sponsors to really guarantee a living.,,that's why I thing most teams should consider prize money just "icing" on the cool cake we're eating.
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Old 07-15-2003, 01:18 PM   #17 (permalink)
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The money issue should only be a problem for about 10 guys. Heck if they would all quit it might give us bottom guys a chance for a little. I picked UROC because they are a top notch series and have made huge strides in a short time. I would like to see more payouts farther down the line but until then I'm just having fun. The Farmington event was great. I didn't even scrath it if you can believe it. I had a lot of fun doing RRCA too but chose to not run it this year because of lack of response when needed. You just can't ever get ahold of Ranch. So Lance if ya guys want to quit that will get me one more spot closer to some type of money!HA!HA!HA!
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Old 07-15-2003, 01:26 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by RedBullJeep


Point noted

Still, there can only be a couple of teams making prize money...that's a tough bet so in the long run, you need sponsors to really guarantee a living.,,that's why I thing most teams should consider prize money just "icing" on the cool cake we're eating.
I totally agree... We would love to have enough sponsorship to make a living rock crawling. But I don't know if the sport has matured enough to allow that yet. Hopefully someday!
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Old 07-15-2003, 01:27 PM   #19 (permalink)
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So Lance if ya guys want to quit that will get me one more spot closer to some type of money!HA!HA!HA!
We aren't goin' anywhere!
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Old 07-15-2003, 01:35 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Ahhhhhhh! Come on Lance!
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Old 07-15-2003, 02:56 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Old 07-15-2003, 03:06 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
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We aren't goin' anywhere but back to the top!
Fixed it for you.
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Old 07-15-2003, 11:15 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I'd like to add a bit to what a few of you said but dont know how to do that "quote thing ".
Dustin mentioned that if you promote carnage and crashing you have to offer more of every time to keep 'em comming back...true and very expensive. yet circle trackers have been doing the same thing, the same direction, on the same surface, with a few crashes per event for years and have had a steadily growing audience . why? because they engage more of the fans brains than just the visual aspect.
Tex brought up "clowns, tough trucks, exhibition and WWF" reminding me of the last 6 years that Julie and I have Pro- Arena (tough truck) raced. While we had alot of fun and met some great friends it never was treated as real racing. We were fairly successful (51 wins in about 175 starts) and we did shows with up to 62000 in attendance, 3 and 5 shows per weekend sometimes but had very little success getting sponsorships partially due to the fact that the whole thing was promoted as a circus not a sport. My point is this sport is young and offers alot to the inteligent fan if we can steer it clear of promoters looking to turn a quick buck by making it into an exhibition.
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Old 07-16-2003, 08:32 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Old 07-16-2003, 03:50 PM   #25 (permalink)
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I think you ALL have made some very good and valid comments. We will work harder in every aspect to find the right balance as we grow this sport. There is no book or roadmap on how exactly to build the sport of rockcrawling so for now we will continue with our formula thus far which is...

Driver feedback + Spectator feedback + Sponsor feedback + Calculated financial Risks + Educated Guess = our best shot, then massage as we go.

We appreciate all everyone has done to help us keep this headed in the right direction.

As far as marketing and course building? They don't even belong in the same sentence. Our courses are built for the drivers based off of their feedback. The marketing is created from our spectator's feedback. It is literally that simple and that separate.

Thanks for the feedback, we are listening.

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