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Old 02-06-2005, 04:15 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Until people realize...WAKE UP!

Taking an example as far fetched as possible...a Corvette rockcrawler...One of the two following cars will help the sport, the other will not...






RECOGNITION is what the Modified class is all about and the class will never see its potential if people do not begin to grasp this concept...especially the promoters. I've seen four new modified crawlers in the last few days and EVERY ONE was IMPOSSIBLE to tell what is was supposed to be as all it had was a somewhat front hood and a little fender of some sort and then JUST ANOTHER BUGGY from there back. Where does the line get drawn?

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Old 02-06-2005, 04:32 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Already done it, but will it be competitive this year?

btw is this supposed to be a hint at the new RockIt???
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Old 02-06-2005, 04:34 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I'm not sure I get your point, but if what you are after is having the rigs in Modified class look more like the street vehicles that the spectators would be driving, then I am all for it, but to be honest, this sport has become so expensive that in order to compete in Mod class, someone has to have a sponsor and push the envelope to the point that they can get every advantage possible. That usually means buggys that don't start off as anything close to a street-driven vehicle.
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Old 02-06-2005, 05:07 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Ohh I reread, and my buggy doesn't meet the requirments. I honestly tossed around the idea of having a C-pillar built and given my WJ buggy a more WJ-esque look all around, but at some point you have to find the balance point between looks and style and functionality. With moon buggies being on one side, and a Stock-Mod rig or even one of The RockIt/Rockher rigs...

Anyway I have "plans" to make my WJ have a more WJ-esque show/trail run only body, so we'll see how that turns out...
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Old 02-06-2005, 05:08 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Nope, the new RockIt will not be a Vette. Plus, I'm competing in the SuperMods anyway so this doesn't have much to do with that anyway. Still, my rig will look a TON more mod than 95% of mod crawlers out there as I understand the value.

As for being expensive...this is not a cheap sport to begin with but there are ways to make it recognisable AND not cost a million bucks. A perfect example is the Lovell's Ranger. With a simple pillar on the cab, that is a Ford Truck. Something so simple as adding pillars and door tops does so much for a rig. Now, we will start to see SUV's entering the picture. An SUV has a full length top with side pillars all the way from the windshield to the tailgate...That is what makes that SUV look like what it is. If you're going to build an SUV, then it should LOOK something like that SUV. If you are going to build a crawler that is supposed to be a vette, then it should LOOK like a Vette.

Truely, this issue can be thrown on the shoulders of the promoters as they say one thing and then allow something completely different. This is a tough one to call as WHERE do you draw that line? Still, a line needs to be drawn and soon. Maybe a good way for the promoters to nip this is to say that if it came with a hardtop, it must have something that resembles a hardtop in a similar configuration...all rigs should have pillars/3 dimensional sides/tailgate and all...I don't know...something/anything to seperate these Modifieds in appearance from the many traditional buggies we see in the SuperMod class.

The reason for this thread is there are many higher dollar Mod rigs in the works and the teams are NOT paying any attention to the purpose of the class...the same goes for the promoters as they are not setting any standards for bodies. Just stirring the pot a little as the sport is at the crossroads...someone's gotta speak up.

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Old 02-06-2005, 07:10 PM   #6 (permalink)
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We tried hard to keep the stock lines and make the body panels fit really well. I don't think that it cost any more than doing a "front clip only" buggy but it did take more time. I built a homemade brake out of scrap angle and bent all my panels other than the front clip. It takes more time and planning but not a whole lot more money if you pick the right platform.

Personally, I care a whole lot for a Vette Crawler but I think there are some really awesome SUV platforms out there. I think 2005 will be good, the supermad class should be mostly moon buggies and the mod class should all resemble something.

I think we are moving in the right direction.
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Old 02-06-2005, 07:34 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Dustin the big difference between your rig, and the Ranger rig, and an SUV buggy is size. There's a lot of stuff that can hang on a C-pillar and D-Pillar. Plus it's added weight, and it's added high. I honestly thought long and hard about whether ot not to put them in, and in the end it was decided that in a competitive setting they'll be a hinderence (of course with more nad more courses being point and shoot sort of things ala Supercrawl I guess they wouldn't have been so bad) It just kinda bugs me cause I really did want my buggy to completly resemble a WJ and I didn't do it regardless of commericalism I wanted one and didn't do it
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Old 02-06-2005, 07:44 PM   #8 (permalink)
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and the mod class should all resemble something.
This is the statement I just don't see happening. Teams are basically throwing a hood on the car and calling it something even though the lines and body look nothing like the original car.

The new crawler I am building goes a little like this. Put the engine/tranny/t-case and seat on a table about where I would LIKE them to go. Stand about 50 feet back with a picture of the rig it should look like in my hand. Looking at the picture and where things are sitting on the table, can I make a rollcage fit around all of that and it STILL look like the car I am building? NO? Well then move a few things around and look again. Once I have the acceptable placement of things, start bending tubes and every time step back and look with that pic in hand. The "A" pillar...does it match the intended car's angle approximately? NO? Well then tip it up or back until it does. The B Hoop...is it in the right place to look correct? If not, move it until it does. The hood line versus the dorr panel, are they correct? What about the trunk/tail areas...are they going to resemble the original car's lines and support the bodywork properly? This takes time to do but in the end, the result will be a Crawler that looks like something.
The reason I posted those two pics at the top was not to start a discussion about allowing a Vette Crawler, it was to show that many teams would call the second picture down a Vette because it has a somewhat Vette Hood and front fender, when it actually looks like just another rock buggy with a somewhat front end stitched on. Sure, Tracy has a hood/headlight section fashioned somewhat like a Toyota Matrix but if you held a gun to someone's head and told them you'll pull a trigger if they cannot identify what it is supposed to be, they say shoot them cause they have no clue. Not a bag on Tracy or the buggy, I was just trying to use a non-modified competitor as an example. Many Modifieds are now taking the direction of Tracy's buggy though and that will NOT help the class to get to where it could be. RECOGNISABILITY = Modifed Class...

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Old 02-06-2005, 07:47 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Dustin the big difference between your rig, and the Ranger rig, and an SUV buggy is size. There's a lot of stuff that can hang on a C-pillar and D-Pillar. Plus it's added weight, and it's added high. I honestly thought long and hard about whether ot not to put them in, and in the end it was decided that in a competitive setting they'll be a hinderence (of course with more nad more courses being point and shoot sort of things ala Supercrawl I guess they wouldn't have been so bad) It just kinda bugs me cause I really did want my buggy to completly resemble a WJ and I didn't do it regardless of commericalism I wanted one and didn't do it
Hal, that is why there are two different classes...the modifieds have to deal with the weight and visability issues so they are all on an even playing field if they all run pillars and bodies...those that don't want to run that stuff can play in the Super Mod.
Your rig is BADASS and I don't take anything away from it as I think it's one of the best in the country..the point is that it doesn't fit into the ideals of recognisability, so it doesn't fit the Mod class.
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Old 02-06-2005, 08:13 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by RedBullJeep
Hal, that is why there are two different classes...the modifieds have to deal with the weight and visability issues so they are all on an even playing field if they all run pillars and bodies...those that don't want to run that stuff can play in the Super Mod.
Your rig is BADASS and I don't take anything away from it as I think it's one of the best in the country..the point is that it doesn't fit into the ideals of recognisability, so it doesn't fit the Mod class.
Regardless of class recognizable bodies do matter, and I guess your thread just struck home because I did want my rig to be something special. After all when you look at Nascar what do you see? Recognizable vehicles. When you think of Baja what do you think of? Recogniazble vehicles. IMO The vehicles that would be most marketable in this sport would fit the same guidelines.

Now if I wanted to rant some more I'd go on about how the Mod class or legends or whatever is dumb. There's practically no difference from one of their rigs than my own. Oooh I have rear stear, ohhhh I have full hydro, ohh I have a tube frame. Come on when regular people look at my rig or the Twisted customs FJ40 they don't see the FJ40 as being any closer to what they drive, and IMO thats what the class should be. Something that regular people can look at and have an inkling that they could be driving the same thing wheras my class should be like "Damn that's a top notch competition vehicle", but I guess that rant has another time and another place...

Hal
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Old 02-06-2005, 08:20 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Regardless of class recognizable bodies do matter, and I guess your thread just struck home because I did want my rig to be something special. After all when you look at Nascar what do you see? Recognizable vehicles. When you think of Baja what do you think of? Recogniazble vehicles. IMO The vehicles that would be most marketable in this sport would fit the same guidelines.

Now if I wanted to rant some more I'd go on about how the Mod class or legends or whatever is dumb. There's practically no difference from one of their rigs than my own. Oooh I have rear stear, ohhhh I have full hydro, ohh I have a tube frame. Come on when regular people look at my rig or the Twisted customs FJ40 they don't see the FJ40 as being any closer to what they drive, and IMO thats what the class should be. Something that regular people can look at and have an inkling that they could be driving the same thing wheras my class should be like "Damn that's a top notch competition vehicle", but I guess that rant has another time and another place...

Hal
But imagine if that Twisted FJ 40 looked more like an FJ 40??? All of the mod crawlers for that matter...There are only a few 3-d bodied rigs out there with panels all the way around. We need more.
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Old 02-06-2005, 08:38 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
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between the name of the file and the rig you used for that pic i don't know if i should laugh or be offended...
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Old 02-06-2005, 09:03 PM   #13 (permalink)
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LOL...sorry Dave, you're was the first side view of a buggy I found...

Didn't mean anything by that name...ROFL....BUSTED!!!!
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Old 02-06-2005, 09:07 PM   #14 (permalink)
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And If it makes you feel better, those are my wheels, the buggy color is wrong, I painted out the SN...FAWKING FUNNY...
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Old 02-06-2005, 09:15 PM   #15 (permalink)
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You Didn't Put A Vette Front Clip On It Did You?????























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Old 02-06-2005, 09:40 PM   #16 (permalink)
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These days, you could make the argument that form is following function... bare tube is cheaper to build, repair, and race. Moon buggies are the current extreme of this trend -- heck, the scoop on Schaefer's latest effort just about doubled the available sticker space! fft:

Dustin, you're asking folks to spend more to build and repair recognizable body panels -- still more, you're asking them to compromise their designs toward the same goal. To your credit, you're modeling what you advise, but sacrificing function is a big leap for most.

You're paying the bills with your sponsorship (that's pretty compelling!) but I think you're gonna have to take home some trophies to change the trend toward tube. Should be a blast to watch you turn up the heat!

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Old 02-06-2005, 09:47 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Dave, changed the URL for ya...

Randii...again, the cost doesn't need to go up as I gave a great example with the Lovell's rig. Their rig was FAR cheaper than Becca's yet beat her handilly...they both have full bodies. Form over function IS the ideal of the Mod class and is the handicap that is supposed to help level the field...as the promoters are not enforcing the body rule, the field is not level. Sit in Becca's car, then sit in one of the other mod buggies...you'll see what I mean. Her's was built to have the lines of a truck and she suffers BIGTIME in the visibility department. If the other cars were designed as they should be, they would suffer similarly but have something the sponsors are more interested in. Understand, this is not a complaint that we're following the rules and others are not...it is a simple heads up that there was supposedly a direction for that class but it is being quickly forgotten in exchange for full on competition buggies. Want to play fully, then step sideways to the SuperMod class.

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Old 02-06-2005, 10:03 PM   #18 (permalink)
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So how would those guys make their Twisted Customs FJ-40 look more like the real thing?? I thought FJ's and CJ's both had flat sheet metal sides with no body lines or moldings. I suppose they could cut out a door opening, but FJ's and CJ's came with hard doors.
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Old 02-06-2005, 10:25 PM   #19 (permalink)
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If 40" wide body kits were available, I think more teams would run them. But at this point all bodies are custom one-off's and that's not practical for most.

I love the idea of eveeryone running a body style. Do you have any ideas on who can do them and what the cost would likely be?
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Old 02-06-2005, 10:39 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Brian, their FJ from the hood back looks like everyone else's buggy, not an FJ. FJ's do not have a perfectly flat body side, they actually have a couple of lines in there that make them look like an FJ and not a CJ. Can you tell the difference from a CJ and an FJ from the side or back without seeing the hood? I can. But the buggy sides people are using take away from that. A good example is Rob Stapleton's CJ or the Brown's Jeep versus Bob Standage's Jeep...Rob's and RJ's look like a Jeep, Bob's looks like a buggy with a Jeep hood.
I'm not asking for perfection as I know what it takes to go full out...still, I am asking for people to make an effort at something more than just a hood.
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Old 02-06-2005, 10:44 PM   #21 (permalink)
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If 40" wide body kits were available, I think more teams would run them. But at this point all bodies are custom one-off's and that's not practical for most.

I love the idea of eveeryone running a body style. Do you have any ideas on who can do them and what the cost would likely be?
There are tons of fiberglass bodies available if poeple just look. FJ, CJ, all kinds of trucks from Pre-Runner's to Desert racers, and also many cars too. Heck, the Lovell's just used factory sheet metal and then made their own simple bedsides...

If someone is building a competition crawler, they'll take all the time needed to find the right axles, t-case, engine, steering, etc. AND they'll spend TOP DOLLAR for that stuff...why don't they do the same for the bodies...at least in the research/effort department as $ doesn't have to be big if you are creative. Heck, cut down a set of sheet metal panels to look like something and ask the local junior college/ROP/high school body shop if they want to teach the class how to make molds and parts. You can get them done for pennies on the dollar that way and the school gets something out of it too.
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Old 02-06-2005, 10:45 PM   #22 (permalink)
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And Brian...with the most talented fabricator I've ever seen working in that shop, I'm surprised you actually asked that question. The Twisted FJ does look great, but it could still look more like an FJ with a little time and creativity. Still, I know George's answer would be something like, "Hey, the promoters have not enforced this, and probably will not, so why should we worry..." That would be a valid argument and is the exact reason for this post in the first place...to find out just where the line is going to be drawn on WHAT is an acceptable Mod body and what is not...

I know what the answer should be for the media, crowds, and sponsors...but the real answer might be something different entirely.

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Old 02-06-2005, 10:45 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I think You make a good point about being able to recognize a vehicle. Look i have been in the sport for 10 years, I have spotted for my father-in-law in the past and i am building a rig so i can compete. I myself have designed my rig out of what use to be a Toyota 4 runner, but i will say it is not one, i have designed it to be different in ways no one could duplicate it. Hey that is what i like to be different. I have seen it all and have been around long enough to say why is everyone so maticulas on what everyone else is doing instead of just having fun doing what they love.
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Old 02-06-2005, 11:07 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Cost DOES go up, especially when you consider time. Lovell racing did an excellent time *managing* that cost to keep it down, but surely time/dollar cost increased (well worth it, IMHO!)

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Old 02-06-2005, 11:20 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Dustin, I was just harrasing you. Joachim and I would like to do a few more things to make the cruiser more recognizable. We have always wanted to somehow add the crusier toe kick vents to the side, and the chrome mldg. on the hood. We tried to cut the rear fender openings square similar to the real thing. I have always wanted to use a stock horn button, and glove box door. If Trailready offered a steel beadlock with hub cap nubs, we would be the first to run them. Maybe we should get some decals printed similar to the original badges.
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