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Old 10-30-2008, 11:29 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Cheating at KOH

So in my spare time from handling the wonderful world of DVD order fulfillment, I've been talking to some drivers about next years race. There has been a trend devloping about people worried about the 'No Chase' aspect of the race. More importantly how are we going to police it.


To be clear, so everyone is on the same page. This is a NO CHASE RACE. There will be a minimum of 3 pit stops on course. You can rebuild your entire car in the pits... but on the course you are limited to the resources that you have IN your car (Codriver, tools, spares..etc). If you don't have it... start walking.


What does this mean? If a car breaks down, you cannot except assistance from spectators, volunteers, crew members or rabid mountain goats... nobody.

You and you alone are responsible to get from pit to pit.


So how are we going to know? 100 Volunteers, helocopters, thousands of spectators, your own competition, and in car-online- GPS transponders. It will be quite obvious when something is fishy. And the GPS will refute or validate any claims.


Maybe I'm naive, but the bottom line, this is the DRIVERS repsonsibility. No one is going to hold you at gun point and make you take his spare off his trail rig. You know the rules.


As far as ramifications...this is where is gets really simple. If you cheat, whether you're caught at the time or a week later when that rabid mountain goat posts pics of you swapping in his distributor on Pirate, YOU WILL BE DISQUALIFIED. Not just from this race, but ANY race that we ever hold in the future.


I'm hearing rumors about people storing parts around the course... about people having their buddies be 'spectators' here and there. If you do it, I hope you enjoyed it a whole bunch... because it's the last time.


The whole purpose of this race is to survive this adventure. Not find new and creative ways to cheat. Load up your spares, wire up an onboard welder... Bring IT

Dave
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Old 10-30-2008, 11:35 AM   #2 (permalink)
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It sure sounds liek it would be easier to make it a chase race, like any other desert race.
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Old 10-30-2008, 11:38 AM   #3 (permalink)
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What about roll-overs? Do you get a DQ if you're on your lid and a bunch of people from the crowd, or other racers, run over and push your junk back over?
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Old 10-30-2008, 11:38 AM   #4 (permalink)
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It sure sounds liek it would be easier to make it a chase race, like any other desert race.
Not going to happen.
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Old 10-30-2008, 11:40 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Not going to happen.
I predict this rule will change in the next few years.
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Old 10-30-2008, 11:46 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I'm hearing rumors about people storing parts around the course... about people having their buddies be 'spectators' here and there. If you do it, I hope you enjoyed it a whole bunch... because it's the last time.
Make sense, don't need a bunch of secret parts and gas cans littered around the course.

Also, if rig were to 'push' another rig from behind, would that be cheating? Kinda like MD and the Red Bull Jeep last year. Technically they received assistance!

Also, if a rig breaks down one mile from the finish, can people jog to the finish line and still be considered as a 'finisher'? I hear Shannon Campbell can sprint pretty fast after a few Monster drinks..
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Old 10-30-2008, 11:46 AM   #7 (permalink)
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It sure sounds liek it would be easier to make it a chase race, like any other desert race.

Two points. This only seems to be hard for the mentally challenged teams that are more concerned about finding a way to cheat than go fast.

Second point. It's definitely not hard for me. Bottom line, if you cheat, I will take GREAT PLEASURE in disqualifying you.


And to be clear, not every desert race is a chase race. Best in the Desert is almost invariably a no chase race.

The adventure of having to get the hobbled car from pit to pit in Vegas 2 Reno was the greatest time I've ever had.


The basis of this race was the old school 'banging out 4 trails in an afternoon'. Thing is, if I broke a birfield on that damn undercut rock just below the waterfall on Wrecking Ball, there wasn't a rock gnome jumping out from behind a boulder changing my broken junk. I had to fix it myself... or make the decision to go at it in 3 wheel.
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Old 10-30-2008, 11:47 AM   #8 (permalink)
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I predict this rule will change in the next few years.
Let me know when you want to host a series. I would love to go racing.
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Old 10-30-2008, 11:49 AM   #9 (permalink)
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What about roll-overs? Do you get a DQ if you're on your lid and a bunch of people from the crowd, or other racers, run over and push your junk back over?
This is the ONLY grey area.

1) Getting assistance from other competitors...isn't outside assistance. They can bump, pull, winch, whatever necessary to help you if they choose to do so. Including giving you parts and/or tools.


2) If you flop and spectators or course officials roll you over... you are good to go. Now if you flop and one of those spectators spare tires magically falls onto your car... you're out
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Old 10-30-2008, 11:56 AM   #10 (permalink)
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So if these rules had been in force last year, Shannon campbell most likely would not have pulled off the amazing win that he did......Just an interesting observation is all
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Old 10-30-2008, 11:58 AM   #11 (permalink)
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so the video we saw of JR getting link mounts welded back on, that wasn't in the pits was it? So your posterboy is DQ'd? or is this just for future races?

Just stirrin the pot! I like the rule - makes it an old school trail ride!

Just might be a bit overboard to completely ban people from future racing, maybe they're just trying to finish - to me it wouldn't be cheating then. Heck it might be harder to stop a nice volunteer from changing your tire than it would be to change it yourself.
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Old 10-30-2008, 11:59 AM   #12 (permalink)
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So if these rules had been in force last year, Shannon campbell most likely would not have pulled off the amazing win that he did......Just an interesting observation is all
I disagree... if the rules were in place last year, Shannon would have planned for those cirumstances. Plus he changed his tire about 1000 yards from a pit
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Old 10-30-2008, 12:04 PM   #13 (permalink)
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so the video we saw of JR getting link mounts welded back on, that wasn't in the pits was it? So your posterboy is DQ'd? or is this just for future races?

Just stirrin the pot! I like the rule - makes it an old school trail ride!

Just might be a bit overboard to completely ban people from future racing, maybe they're just trying to finish - to me it wouldn't be cheating then. Heck it might be harder to stop a nice volunteer from changing your tire than it would be to change it yourself.
A) I don't have a poster boy. If you're referring to the movie... it was just that, a movie.

B) Last year we didn't have these rules. It never came up.

C) Old school trail ride --- Exactly. This is an endurance/survival race. Not who can have the most support sitting around the desert. No one cheated last year. Not even close. But the race was evolving in a direction that neither Jeff or I intended. We may be making a bad decision. But I'm sticking with it.

D) As far as the 'harshness' of it, I don't really have any other way to enforce it. It would get sticky if Jeff or were making judgement calls about who got help and when. This way it's black and white. If you can't finish, try again next year.
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Old 10-30-2008, 12:10 PM   #14 (permalink)
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1) Getting assistance from other competitors...isn't outside assistance. They can bump, pull, winch, whatever necessary to help you if they choose to do so. Including giving you parts and/or tools.

I envision some teams carrying 'extra' parts for 'other rigs' and being competitor 'chase' rigs...
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Old 10-30-2008, 12:16 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I envision some teams carrying 'extra' parts for 'other rigs' and being competitor 'chase' rigs...
That gives an advantage to the bigger teams with more rigs and money.


Dave, maybe you should not allow ANY assistance so there is no grey area.
If a rig is upside down and broke down in the middle of the trail: drive over them or winch over them.
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Old 10-30-2008, 12:19 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I envision some teams carrying 'extra' parts for 'other rigs' and being competitor 'chase' rigs...



OK? so? read what Dave said... that is legal... as he said BITD is a no chace race, BUT! if your pit crew can get a team behind you to carry part's from a pit to your location and drop them off, that's legal. Some teams even enter a second racer in sportsman class, a slower 4wd vehicle, just in case they get stuck, break etc. but the letter of the rule, it's not outside assistance, it's racer helping racer, which is legal.
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Old 10-30-2008, 12:19 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Any of these rules apply to the LCQ?
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Old 10-30-2008, 12:19 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Dave, don't sweat Blaze..all he ever does in stir shit in events he doesn't even compete in anyway...he was even working on taking over the world in Formula Toy just a few weeks ago, and doesn't even have an F-Toy. Mustard Dog, DToy, and the gang love him now...but W.E.ROCK is happy because he finally shut up about us after realising we won't put up with his shit...he's just moved on to F-Toy and KOH.
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Old 10-30-2008, 12:21 PM   #19 (permalink)
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So... help from the peaple your wheelin with is ok( competitors)... hiding a spare trans under a rock, bad !! I got it !! This is gonna kick ass !!
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Old 10-30-2008, 12:27 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Dave, don't sweat Blaze..all he ever does in stir shit in events he doesn't even compete in anyway...he was even working on taking over the world in Formula Toy just a few weeks ago, and doesn't even have an F-Toy. Mustard Dog, DToy, and the gang love him now...but W.E.ROCK is happy because he finally shut up about us after realising we won't put up with his shit...he's just moved on to F-Toy and KOH.

dustin just shut the fuck up I tired of you holy than thou attitude

Dave knows seems to have taken my comments the right way - explaining thoroughly his point and making it clear - thanks dave!
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Old 10-30-2008, 12:27 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Dave the other "area" that we should clarify now is the tech rules and inspection process for each of the vehicles in the race. This isn't a "cheating" issue more than a look the various safety items etc that ALL of the rigs should be equipped with. I know we are roughly following the WeRock rule book, but there are a few items that are not included that should be addressed.

The one item that I believe needs to be discussed is foam inserts in fuel tanks/cells. With nearly a hundred vehicles in the race there is a chance of a collision and a greater chance of fire without the foam. BITD, MORE, MDR, SCORE etc all require foam inserts, but WeRock is silent. Lets finalize the rulebook for tech so that we are all on the same page. If somone decides to "cheat" the safety rules or fluid containment requirements etc, we all loose.

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Old 10-30-2008, 12:30 PM   #22 (permalink)
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D) As far as the 'harshness' of it, I don't really have any other way to enforce it. It would get sticky if Jeff or were making judgement calls about who got help and when. This way it's black and white. If you can't finish, try again next year.

I thought you were saying that if caught cheating they couldn't ever be a part of KOH in the future. So if your broke and just want to finish the course for the experience your DQ'd but can try again next year? That's much more reasonable but not what your first post says
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Old 10-30-2008, 12:35 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Any of these rules apply to the LCQ?
They all do.


The LCQ is going to be more time trialish. We won't start the next car inline until the preceeding car clears the waterfall. So that eliminates help from competitors. The spectators will be over 30 feet away from the spot that you could or would roll and we will have recovery crews EVERYWHERE.

The LCQ is a sprint. If you are stopping to fix your car, you've already lost.
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Old 10-30-2008, 12:35 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Dave I thought part of the reason for this new rule was safety as well? now that there are 90 racers with potentially 90 or more "chase vehicles" what happens when someone doing 80mph backwards on the course comes upon people racing. Bad things can happen. I'm sure this is an issue with desert racing too but its also probably why Baja is in Mexico not in the US I know zilch about BITD and V2R but safety seems like it should be very important for KOH especially in working with the BLM.

I think its a very cool rule because it makes it more of a thinking race. Shannon said himself in Crawl from last years race he plans to be more prepared for 09 and that includes a spare.
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Old 10-30-2008, 12:38 PM   #25 (permalink)
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I thought you were saying that if caught cheating they couldn't ever be a part of KOH in the future. So if your broke and just want to finish the course for the experience your DQ'd but can try again next year? That's much more reasonable but not what your first post says
To your point... if you get help and finish the course... yes you have some personal edification... but you didn't finish the race.

Allowing that to count cheapens the success of those that finished on their own.

Finishing this race is a win.

Me and you are on the same page though.
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