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Old 01-31-2008, 11:24 AM   #1 (permalink)
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94-up Dodge D60 Front Tech

I apologize in advance if this is stuff I already should know and post in the newb forum, but I thought this would be a great place to create a collection of Dodge Dana 60 tech.
I've done a lot of searching, but I acknowledge that you guys know your stuff, so please correct me if I'm wrong on any of these.

I'm looking at grabbing a 1999 front 60 for nearly free to replace the hp44 I just built for my Cherokee.







From what I understand they are looked down on compared to other "better" 60's. Because they have the following less desirable attributes.
1: Ball Joint vs. King pin
2: Unit Bearing vs. wheel bearing
3: CAD- central axle disconnect
4: 32 spline inners vs. more desired 35
5: Low pinion vs. high pinion
6: Inverted "Y" style stock steering vs. inverted "T"
7: What spline count on the outers? 30?
8: Flanges vs. Lockout hubs
what else? any width difference, tube thickness (1/2"??), inner "C"s, knuckles

Obviously the 60 is going to be an upgrade in a few aspects from the 44 even in a late model Dodge 44's like:
1: U-joint size
2: Ball Joint size
3: Axle shaft strength/ size
4: Bolt pattern strength
5: Ring and pinion size/ strength
6: Pinion yoke size


Please educate me and add to this. (what can be done to improve the strength or get rid off the weaknesses i.e. one piece shafts... etc. of these 60's)
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Old 01-31-2008, 02:47 PM   #2 (permalink)
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http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billav...ont/index.html

'nuff said.


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Old 01-31-2008, 03:22 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jensenkennels View Post
Really, there is nothing said in your link

From your link:

The undesirable front Dana 60 axles will not be covered by this article, and include:


94+ Dodge drivers side low pinion CAD unit bearing hub 32 spline 1.31” coil sprung Dana 60s


Now for your points..
2: Unit Bearing vs. wheel bearing
This is easily remidied by the kits from Dynatrac, EMS, and now SOLID. Or on the 94-01 models by swapping everything from the Balljoints out from a pre SD Ford D-60.
Or the 3rd option is modifying the Ford spindle to fit the Dodge Knuckle (Turning down the step on the innerside of the spindle, and re-drilling the spindle for the Dodge 4 bolt pattern)
3: CAD- central axle disconnect
Another easy fix, Moser and EMS offer 1 piece inners in 30 32 or 35 spline varieties
4: 32 spline inners vs. more desired 35
See # 3 above
6: Inverted "Y" style stock steering vs. inverted "T"
The 98-99 HD trucks came with a T style steering linkage, or you can swap in the Thuren Fab HD steering
7: What spline count on the outers? 30?
See # 2 Above
8: Flanges vs. Lockout hubs
From an overall strength standpoint, the flange/Hub from the Dodge is stronger than any lockout hub, or see # 2 above
what else? any width difference, tube thickness (1/2"??), inner "C"s, knuckles
AFAIK no one has had any problems with either the 94-01 or 01-03 Inner Cs or knuckles.

As far as
1: Ball Joint vs. King pin
This is the only REAL problem with the Ram 60, That is not easily remidied.
5: Low pinion vs. high pinion
There are MANY High HP/Torque Cummins Rams tractor pulling with the Low Pinion 60 without breaking them. There is the Driveline angle/ Ground Clearance issue, however
what else? any width difference, tube thickness (1/2"??), inner "C"s, knuckles
The CAD casting is another spot that appears to have broken or bent on a few trucks. This area can be strengthened with a weld on truss if it is an issue.

To me the bottom line is the Ram 60s are cheap enough that they are worth looking at to upgrade. If you start with a KP Ford HP 60 for 1000.00 and a Dodge for near free, you can make the Ram as strong or stronger for much less money. The Solid Hub kit is ~1800.00 and includes Forged ChroMo Spindles/Hubs, ChroMo 35 Spline Outers, and Warn Premium Lockouts, add 35 Spline Inners for ~450.00, along with a 35 Spline Locker and truss the housing, the Only sore spot is the BJs. The Ram 60 can be done with gears and a locker for ~3000.00 The Ford if compared Apple to Apple would be ~4000.00 (Price of the axle, HD Knuckles, 35 Spline ChroMo Inners/Outers, HD Hubs, Locker and Gears) Sure you may not NEED the HD spindles and Hubs, but do you NEED the KingPins?

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Old 01-31-2008, 05:37 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murfman1967 View Post
but do you NEED the KingPins?
Yes, I believe I do. After replacing god knows(and my buddy's credit card company) how many balljoints per year, a 25 year old kingpin is usually in better shape and doesn't always have to be replaced when you tear down an axle to re-gear it. Hmm...

94+ dodge dana 60's. FAIL
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Old 01-31-2008, 06:05 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Hmmmmm...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murfman1967 View Post
Really, there is nothing said in your link

The undesirable front Dana 60 axles will not be covered by this article, and include:


94+ Dodge drivers side low pinion CAD unit bearing hub 32 spline 1.31 coil sprung Dana 60s
THAT is saying something. But then again, what does Billvista know.
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Old 01-31-2008, 06:32 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I've wheeled a 99 dodge dana 60 front axle for 2 years straight with 42'' tsl's and a healthy motor and covered alot of ground with it and the axle had 160k on it before I got it. 1 drivers side inner was all I have broken ! I broke it after I jumped over 1 car at a show and landed in another car and had the tire wedged in between the roof and driversside seat. All of the rock climbing and mudding and nothin but good luck!
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Old 01-31-2008, 07:46 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Not to mention RamV is running one of these "junk" axles.
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Old 02-01-2008, 12:39 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Im not saying it cant be done. In fact, I bet they work great. Id take one over a d44 and day.

If you get one for free, as posted above, you can build them to adress trhe weaknesses that were put upon this cursed axle. No problem with that. But around here, they sell for a couple hundred less then an "old" d60. So when upgrading, its not cost effective. But if the axle was damn near or is free... game on.
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Old 02-01-2008, 01:04 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Some good tech here guys. Thanks.
Sounds like there are a lot of good options with these axles.
It may be worth my time to just run it stock with a truss for the time being. It certainly is an upgrade from the 44.
I imagine that there some type of cable actuator set up to get around the CAD like the CAD D30's.
Sorry I didn't get a definite answer, the stock outers are 30 spline then, right?

94Dodge Truggy what's WMS to WMS of your axle?
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Old 02-01-2008, 01:57 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jarvisjeep View Post
Yes, I believe I do. After replacing god knows(and my buddy's credit card company) how many balljoints per year, a 25 year old kingpin is usually in better shape and doesn't always have to be replaced when you tear down an axle to re-gear it. Hmm...

94+ dodge dana 60's. FAIL
Hmm I've owned 4 different 94 up Ram 4x4s. The first I bought from my neighbor w/360,000 Miles. It was a Farm Truck, and I'd bet 100K miles were in the dirt. Still had the original Ball joints in it, sure they were worn, but a Saturday afternoon later they were replaced. (This truck ran 35 x 12.50 tires from about 60K miles on. I'm not saying Kingpins are not better, I am saying Ball Joints have a bad rap that is not all deserved. At least Ball Joints are easier to replace
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Old 02-01-2008, 02:04 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Hmmmmm...
THAT is saying something. But then again, what does Billvista know.
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I'm NOT saying Billvista doesen't know anything, I'm saying he did not cover the Ram 60 in his post


If I were building a Buggy, Jeep, or any non Ram truck, I'd look elsewhere, but for the 94-02 Ram The Stock D-60 has many pluses, mainly it bolts in, and is the correct width. All the Ford HP swaps I've seen in Rams have been Ball Joint axles anyway, because the Kingpin and the stock Coil Spring want to occupy the same real estate. As a side note, my 02 Housing showed up today 450.00 Shipped to my door. I plan on posting the build, I am gong to try the Ford D50 Spindle/Hub swap, seems there has been a lot of speculation, but no proof that it does or does not fit, maybe I can put an end to that.
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Old 02-01-2008, 02:05 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Some good tech here guys. Thanks.
Sounds like there are a lot of good options with these axles.
It may be worth my time to just run it stock with a truss for the time being. It certainly is an upgrade from the 44.
I imagine that there some type of cable actuator set up to get around the CAD like the CAD D30's.
Sorry I didn't get a definite answer, the stock outers are 30 spline then, right?

94Dodge Truggy what's WMS to WMS of your axle?

There is a cable operated kit available, and I found a post with a home made one too, I'll try to find it.
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Old 02-01-2008, 02:44 PM   #13 (permalink)
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The cable actuated kit is from posi-lok:

http://www.4x4posi-lok.com/
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Old 02-01-2008, 05:52 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Hmm I've owned 4 different 94 up Ram 4x4s. The first I bought from my neighbor w/360,000 Miles. It was a Farm Truck, and I'd bet 100K miles were in the dirt. Still had the original Ball joints in it, sure they were worn, but a Saturday afternoon later they were replaced. (This truck ran 35 x 12.50 tires from about 60K miles on. I'm not saying Kingpins are not better, I am saying Ball Joints have a bad rap that is not all deserved. At least Ball Joints are easier to replace
I have to agree with this. My V10 Ram has been on oversized tires for some time, to include the past 3 years on 37's and 40's. I don't wheel like many people here do, but it still has the factory ball joints that have yet to even wear out at ~ 180k.
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Old 02-02-2008, 07:36 AM   #15 (permalink)
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I have to agree with this. My V10 Ram has been on oversized tires for some time, to include the past 3 years on 37's and 40's. I don't wheel like many people here do, but it still has the factory ball joints that have yet to even wear out at ~ 180k.
Wow. Well I don't think, with 37's and a rig that weighs a couple thou less, that I'll have trouble with them...

now I've heard the biggest reason for disliking the ball joint style 60's is with full hydro or hydro assist they are more prone to failure than kingpin style knuckles. Myth? True? Why

On that same note do the knuckles have rear turn stops? Has anyone added them or other provisions to keep steering angles in check especially with hydrolic steering?
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Old 02-02-2008, 04:56 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I plan on posting the build, I am gong to try the Ford D50 Spindle/Hub swap, seems there has been a lot of speculation, but no proof that it does or does not fit, maybe I can put an end to that.
I speculated too, and we (me & a buddy) were successful with D50 spindles and hubs. The increased overall width claims seem a bit extreme. I'd say ~2" total and nothing to worry about (285/75R16 tires on 8" wheels).

Somebody else on PBB did the swap too, but I think the axle was in a FSBronco.
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Old 02-02-2008, 10:39 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I speculated too, and we (me & a buddy) were successful with D50 spindles and hubs. The increased overall width claims seem a bit extreme. I'd say ~2" total and nothing to worry about (285/75R16 tires on 8" wheels).

Somebody else on PBB did the swap too, but I think the axle was in a FSBronco.
Thanks for the info, I want to try this, but that Damn SOLID kit is really calling to me, I like the Idea of the forged Chro Mo Spindles AND Hubs for less than 2K with 35 spline outers.
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Old 02-03-2008, 07:15 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Search on ball joints vs. King pins, it seems not everyone agrees king pins are better....

The '99+ axles have 32 spline inners and 33 spline outers, big ball joints and 5-806X u joints from the factory. I have broke two inners, both from having a bent tie rod and the steering stops allowing binding on the wheel in an extreme situation. Both u joints were fine and I broke the shafts at the yoke where they are over 1.5" in diameter. In other words, any axle would have broke.....

I am still running stock everything. (except a 4340 DS inner that I put in since I broke the stocker, don't think its required but I had it) The CAD is ginormous, (like 2"), I have a 4x4 posilok cable activated deal to actuate it,. Its crap, so I just leave it engaged all the time. However I will some day do one of the eliminator kits ($300 from EMS including an alloy inner) just for piece of mind.

For as much bad as I read on these axles, I have no problems. You don't have hubs sticking out, you don't need to buy 35 spline outers, you don't need to buy a flange kit, and there is no maintenance.

I would do aftermarket steering but since you are swapping into an XJ you will be doign custom steering anyway.

I honestly have no reason to care if you run the axle or not, but the best thing I did to my truck was swap in this front axle. In 3 years I have had only two issues, (not counting melting an ARB line on the exhaust manifold), and I am fairly hard on my truck.

Here is a comparison on the left inner



Top is 32 spline 1.41" (notice the weird relief, never broke one there)
middle is 32 spline Yukon inner (custom cut)
bottom is 30 spline (pre '98) inner. Note it necks down at both ends. Most stock 60 shafts look like this, so the stock 32 spline Dodges actually have more meet then most KP 60s.

Here is mine:

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Old 02-04-2008, 07:22 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Thanks for the pics ramv looks like a good solution for me, and thanks for the tech guys. Looks like I'll try to grab that axle.
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Old 02-07-2008, 06:27 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I'm NOT saying Billvista doesen't know anything, I'm saying he did not cover the Ram 60 in his post


If I were building a Buggy, Jeep, or any non Ram truck, I'd look elsewhere, but for the 94-02 Ram The Stock D-60 has many pluses, mainly it bolts in, and is the correct width. All the Ford HP swaps I've seen in Rams have been Ball Joint axles anyway, because the Kingpin and the stock Coil Spring want to occupy the same real estate. As a side note, my 02 Housing showed up today 450.00 Shipped to my door. I plan on posting the build, I am gong to try the Ford D50 Spindle/Hub swap, seems there has been a lot of speculation, but no proof that it does or does not fit, maybe I can put an end to that.
They fit... here's the pics of em installed with no machining other than re-drilling the flanges:





Quote:
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I speculated too, and we (me & a buddy) were successful with D50 spindles and hubs. The increased overall width claims seem a bit extreme. I'd say ~2" total and nothing to worry about (285/75R16 tires on 8" wheels).
Somebody else on PBB did the swap too, but I think the axle was in a FSBronco.
I did the swap in the 78 Bronco. There were a couple of measurements I posted that may have caused confusion, since I replaced a 78 Ford D44 with this axle.
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Old 02-08-2008, 01:12 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Awesome man, but just to clarify. THat is a second gen dodge d60 with ford TTB D50 spindles and hubs, correct?

Edit Or better yet, can I get a link to your build, and I will digg through it for the info, thanks.
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Old 02-08-2008, 12:34 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Awesome man, but just to clarify. THat is a second gen dodge d60 with ford TTB D50 spindles and hubs, correct?

Edit Or better yet, can I get a link to your build, and I will digg through it for the info, thanks.
X2, I am very interested in this being a more economical way to eliminate the unit bearings.

What about the ABS sensor? What stub shafts were used?
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Old 02-08-2008, 12:38 PM   #23 (permalink)
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X2, I am very interested in this being a more economical way to eliminate the unit bearings.

What about the ABS sensor? What stub shafts were used?
ABS delete. ...actually, the 94 and 96 I helped convert did not have front ABS.

Ford D60 stubs.
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Old 02-08-2008, 01:08 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Will the Ford D50 rotors work or do the Dodge rotors have to be used. It seems I read that there is an issue with the spacing of the rotor.

Also, will this conversion work with pre98 Dodge D60's or all years?
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Old 02-08-2008, 03:32 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Also, will this conversion work with pre98 Dodge D60's or all years?
Worked for a 94 and a 96. Not sure if it works on the 98+? 01+? since they used a dual piston caliper, different knuckle, etc.
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