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Old 09-09-2005, 08:29 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Ford 400M build up....

ok, im planning on building up my 2 ford 400s in my 2 trucks soon, and i was looking for some feedback.... but before i say anything more, IM NOT CHANGING MY ENGINE SELECTION..... im staying with the 400s and i have great faith in the M series engine...

my plans are i believe typical of the average offroader: torque with a good power band so im planning on running (from the bottom up) new I beam shot peen rods with new bearings, and new higher compression ratio pistons(either dome/ flat top) that will put me in the 9.0-9.3:1 range, how ever im not sure wether i need to go cast or forged. im planning on using a cloyes true roller double rooler timing chain, and a new cam that works in the 2000-5000 power band...... im unsure of what exact int/exh measure i will need though.. i was hoping for some input. also looking to go with a weiand action plus manifold, and use an adapter to run the stock 2bbl motocraft carb so that i can maintain the offroad angles im planning on getting the valves and springs replaced with nice single spring set up and roller rockers, and smoothing out the ports on the heads as much as i can myself. going to use chassis headers and thats basically it aside from the MSD ignition and fuel pump ect..... so how good does this build up look??? im hoping to be in the 350-400 hp range @ the crank and make peak torque and hp before 3000 rpm.... im going to be hooking it up to a reman C6 with some minor work and 39's for my F150
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Mud DriverI: 79 F150 built 400M, 35x14.5x15 boggers, 4" lift, 9"R, D44 F, NP435, NP203 : [url]http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2145548[/url]
Mud DriverII: 77 F250 stock 400M, 36x12.5x16.5 TSL's, highboy, D60 R,D44F HD , NP435, np205 : [url]http://www.cardomain.com/ride/393604[/url]
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Old 09-09-2005, 10:16 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Check for trueness on the block mains and read up on the oiling system. I have a couple of buddies with Fords and they've pounded the bottom ends out of several 351M/400s. Seems like its the mains that always go.
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Old 09-09-2005, 10:18 PM   #3 (permalink)
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ive heard that the bottom end was the weak link (hence the new rods in the plan) what do i have to do to up the ability of the oiling system??? new pump and screen sounds like thats in the plans too....
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Old 09-09-2005, 10:26 PM   #4 (permalink)
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if your serious about this, you should check out FTE's 335 series forum and pjb's 351m/400 forum as well. Many of us are running decently built 400's.

Search on a external oiling line
I would add a oil cooler.

open chamber heads and higher compression can lead to problems if your not careful. There are some aftermarket heads which are aluminum for these engines which offer up closed chambers on the heads. People also are adding EFI to these engines as well now, so thats the next big thing thats happening.
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Old 09-10-2005, 12:42 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NHRedneck
ok, im planning on building up my 2 ford 400s, im planning on using a cloyes true roller double rooler timing chain
LOL
Slap this cam in with the other listed goodies...........

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Old 09-10-2005, 12:47 AM   #6 (permalink)
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http://store.summitracing.com/partde...4&autoview=sku

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Old 09-10-2005, 06:21 AM   #7 (permalink)
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build that 400 up, let me know how it goes, im doing mine soon
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Old 09-10-2005, 08:38 AM   #8 (permalink)
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dont wait for me to finish, get goin on yours now.... are there any ways aside from the external oiling that can help me out as far as the oil system goes??? im not against it im just wondering what options i have... what type of power are some of you guys making with your 400's, and what type of pistons should i run??? Jopes, can you give me the links to those forums you mentioned, id love to do some research there....
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Mud DriverI: 79 F150 built 400M, 35x14.5x15 boggers, 4" lift, 9"R, D44 F, NP435, NP203 : [url]http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2145548[/url]
Mud DriverII: 77 F250 stock 400M, 36x12.5x16.5 TSL's, highboy, D60 R,D44F HD , NP435, np205 : [url]http://www.cardomain.com/ride/393604[/url]

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Old 09-10-2005, 09:11 AM   #9 (permalink)
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the reason the 351/400 drop their pants is because they don't oil the crank first like every other Ford motor(at least thats what a Ford engine builder told me). They are good old work horses if you keep the bottom end together. I did have one that ran for 5 years with basicly no oil pressure until it finally broke the crank. save money and put in 460s...oops you did put that in ALL CAPS huh...LOL
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Old 09-10-2005, 09:38 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Use a Comp Cam 268 and Rhoads lifters with roller rocker arms, Keith Black 351C flat tops and have the rods bushed so you can use the 351C pistons(the wrist pins are smaller on the 351 C), for the oiling system you can put in restrictors that are sold by MPG head service they restrict the amount of oil going to the lifters/rocker armes, etc leaving more for the bottem end. Beefier rods will not help the lack of oiling. Edelbrock is the only manufacturer I know of that is currently producing an aluminum head for these engines. Not sure if they are in your budget or not. They should make a huge improvement, due to the shape of the combustion chamber. On the stock heads when you increase the compression ration you have a big problem with pinging, just depends on where you live and what type of gas you are trying to use.

www.projectbronco.com lots of good buildup ideas on here as well as technical assistance from some damn smart guys.

can't remeber the address for the 385 series website but you should be able to due a search for 351C forums or 385 forums and find it on the web, it is mainly about 351C but they share the same design as the 351M/400.
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Old 09-10-2005, 09:49 AM   #11 (permalink)
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429/460s are 385 series...the M and C stuff is 335 series
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Old 09-10-2005, 10:37 AM   #12 (permalink)
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the oiling system is the same as almost every other manufacturer other then chev. Mopars buicks Olds Caddy all the same.

the external line mod is a myth.
the restrictors are usually only recommended for solid lift cams.

the correct way to 'fix' the oiling is to bush the lifter bores and meter the oil with a restricted feed passage.
for your rpm range there is no reason to change the oiling from stock.
I have a few 351m here that are origonal from 1978/9 and they still run so oil doesnt seem to be a problem.

Edelbrock heads are overpriced junk. the Aussies have a few different aluminum race heads for the same money. way more bang for $$.

a set of Aussie 302C heads would make it easy to get the compression ratio up.
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Old 09-10-2005, 12:06 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I just picked up my set of aussie closed chambers all build to slap on my engine. My EFI manifold should be just about finished as well. CHI and airflow dynamics I belive both make Aluminum aussie style closed chamber heads as well as the edelbrock heads which just hit the market.


www.ford-trucks.com and www.projectbronco.com have 2 very good forums on this stuff.

My cam is not as hot as what buzz posted up but I have seen the tach drop to 350rpms when idling on the trails without stalling. And to me this is more than having a high screamer. But with the stuff I am putting on I am probably going to see at least a 75 hp and 80 ft lb increase over what I have now.
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Old 09-10-2005, 06:52 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
dont wait for me to finish, get goin on yours now
heh, are you crazy, mine has 300K on it and still not burning a drop of oil, im not doing it till i get the extra cash and axels rebuilt with some frame work.
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Old 09-10-2005, 07:11 PM   #15 (permalink)
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there was a great article in hot rod magazine about five years ago with a relatively cheap and easy recipe for a 400+ HP 400. I'll see if i can find it.
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Old 09-10-2005, 07:41 PM   #16 (permalink)
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www.1ton4x4.com/400

Go here and read it.
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Old 09-10-2005, 08:16 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Yeah i'm going the oposite way with my 400, i'm using a set of 4v quench heads, a cam in the .536" lift range (can't reamber the specs off the top of my head), forged pistons (i recomended going this route instead of cast), high volume oil pump and better pan that i can get from a buddy, the external oil line (it does help, same gy i can get that pan from had a 302C in a mud drag truck, and he knows all about this), then balance the bottom end, arp'd bottom end, edlebrock single plane high rise and holley 750 dp, theres a few other little things as well, but after its all said and done with it should be in te 400-450 hp range judging from some desktop dyno results.
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Old 09-10-2005, 08:20 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Ok time for a few corrections here. first off there is no such thing as a 400m or a M series engine for that matter. It's just a 400, and they are 335 series engine which include a 351c, 351m/400.
Next along with the edelbrock, both CHI, and AFD make alum heads that are much better and about the same price as the edeljunk.
next the external oil line is not a myth it does infact help keep oil to the #5 mains, and to the pass side lifter gallery.
and lastly you can use the restrictors even with a hyd cam just don't use the big one that restricts oil to the pass side lifter gallery unless you are infact using the external oil line. the rest of the restrictors will just restrict the oil flow to the cam bearings so more stays to the crankshaft and goes to the rods.
Main problem with the 351m/400 is the huge dia of the mains at 3" so getting enough oil to them is critical do to bearing speeds with that dia of journal.
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Old 09-11-2005, 12:16 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Heh, NO the problem is not 3" mains. The problem with the bottom end is the fact they need better balancing so they dont pound the shit out of the bearings. MAKE SURE YOU HAVE YOUR ROTATING ASSEMBLY BALANCED!!

Make sure your crank oiling holes get champhered if they arent already. You dont want to scrape oil off of your crank.

Would a HV oil pump alleviate any potential oiling problems without getting into fancy schmancy mods?

Heh, can we start the what the "M" really stands for fight? I havent seen one in a while
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Old 09-11-2005, 12:23 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by masterbeavis

Heh, can we start the what the "M" really stands for fight? I havent seen one in a while

It stands for your Mama, and she is going rounds with everyone who walks past her.
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Old 09-11-2005, 12:32 AM   #21 (permalink)
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for stock rpm range you do not need to change anything in the oiling
if you want to turn big RRRs you need to crank up the pressure and bush the lifters
if you are into old school prostock rpm stuff then look at the Hank the Crank mods that everyone is faking with the useless external line mod
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Old 09-11-2005, 12:35 AM   #22 (permalink)
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so whats considered stock rpm's? 2500?
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Old 09-11-2005, 01:27 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by masterbeavis
Would a HV oil pump alleviate any potential oiling problems without getting into fancy schmancy mods?

Heh, can we start the what the "M" really stands for fight? I havent seen one in a while
HV pumps do help some although you have to be careful at high rpms due to the fact that a 335 series engine is capable of emptying the oil pan and putting it all up into the heads in a very short time (like about 3-4 seconds of 6500+rpm with a stock pan)

Naw I don't want to start the M fight just pointing out that it never applied to the 400 in any way. But maybe a little fight, it actually doesn't stand for anything at all, it's just a letter designator to keep it seperated from the C, and W engines of the same 351 displacement.

And MJ you can call it a useless oiling mod if you want and it's an easy thing just don't use it if you think it's a waste of time. Me personally I will continue to run it, first reason show me what it hurts. second I ran a 302C in a mud drag truck with restrictors a HV pump and the external line 10qt pan non bushed lifter bores and a solid roller cam shifting at 7400rpm, and never tore out a bearing. I ran a 351c with all of the above oiling mods except the external line, and after 1 season shifting at 6500rpm the numbers 4 and 8 rod bearings were almost gone, and the number 5 main wasn't looking to good either.
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Old 09-11-2005, 09:48 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Talk is cheap..........Never had an "m" issue........still have plenty out there
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Old 09-11-2005, 12:07 PM   #25 (permalink)
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some Ford literature uses 'M' as 'modified'
motorsports catalogues for instance
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