302 to 400 swap

[tsmall07]

i have 1980 f150 and i'm thinking about going from a 302 to a 400. are the engine mounts different between these two engines or will i not have problems?

[Fordtrucks]

Originally Posted by tsmall07

i have 1980 f150 and i'm thinking about going from a 302 to a 400. are the engine mounts different between these two engines or will i not have problems?

You will need differenf frame pirches for the 400,and a different transmission.

[Poohbair]

Everything is different between a 302 and a 400...

[Fordtrucks]

Well if you are running a manual tranny then you can simply get the 400 bell housing.If you are runnin an automatic then you will need and older C6 tranny that came from a 351M/400/429/460 and youll be good to go.The different tranny will olt up in place of yours and the motor will also bolt right in,once you get the correct pirches and engine mounts.The frame pirches youll need to get from the JY.Take a grinder,youll need to grind a few rivits and the same on your 80.Then simply bolt the pirches back on.Now I cant remember but it seems to me that the 400 pirches MIGHT work,lol.When I got rid of the 302 I had in the 81 I went to a 460 and had to change pirches,but for some reason I am thinking the 351/400 pirches are close to the 302s but cant remember.Look and see.Find a 351M/400 truck and compare.I think there different though.Why 400 anyways?

[Jrod-13]

amazing, me and a buddy just did that very same swap last night..

-83' bronco, 302, NP-435.
- put in a 400 from a 79' F-250
-the 79's bellhousing bolted onto the 435 that was in the bronco
-the 400 using the stock truck mounts droped right in the 302 slots on the frame mounts.
-the 400' exhuast manifolds and Y pipe fit perfectly in the bronco frame.

100% bolt in, except for mounting up a slave cylinder to the older bell housing.

[braxton357]

Honestly, why would you swap a 400 into anything...?

[randii]

Originally Posted by braxton357

Honestly, why would you swap a 400 into anything...?

Help keep the nose down on climbs?

Randii

[NetBSD]

Originally Posted by braxton357

Honestly, why would you swap a 400 into anything...?

cuz its better then a 302, then you got the 460, im swapping my 400 for a 460 this summer

[bmc69]

Originally Posted by braxton357

Honestly, why would you swap a 400 into anything...?

Because they make the same torque as a 460 and weigh less than a 460..like this one for example, which made me cry when my dyno run did not break 500 ft-lbs..it stopped at 496 ft-lbs. (at just a snick over 3000 RPM..think about that for a moment...).

[braxton357]

Honestly though, how much money have you thrown at it for it to make those numbers? A stroked 351w > any 400

[skipped_Link]

I put togeather a 400M for the G/F's pickup, (79 F150 longbed 4X) I started with a bone stock reman bottom end, cleaned up a set of heads & had them milled to bring up the c/r, good valve springs & minimal portwork, all it had for bolt on stuff was an edelbrock intake 600 cfm carb, heddman headers & a crane cams 272 camshaft, in the pick up with 3.50 gears it would destroy the 36 inch swampers, & when traveling back & forth to school it would avg 14 mpg,
I love the 385 searies engine but I wouldn't be a bit above running a 400M,
(edit) I'm not sure the 272 crane cam is still availible but summit has a cam that is very close,

[bmc69]

Originally Posted by braxton357

Honestly though, how much money have you thrown at it for it to make those numbers? A stroked 351w > any 400

WITH the EFI ..exactly 3200 bucks total build cost. And a 408 Windsor has far less piston stability an hence longevity than the 408 Cleveland which is a stock configuration with .030 overbore. We are working up a a 434 ci multi-port EFI stroker 400 motor now..that one will cost approximately the same as a 427W..but the oil ring still clears the wrist pin and the torque on that one is almost 550 ft-lb..again at around 3000 RPM. Weighs exactly 65 pounds more than the 351W too.

[bmc69]

Oh..and for grins..go search on what the Pantera mafia are all running in their most extreme forms. 400s..ALL of them.

[FordFascist]

You can build a 400 to make some serious torque, but I still think a 351W stroked would make for an easier swap as most of the 302 components would fit with little modification. Also, none of the motor mounts, bellhousing or exhaust would have to be changed (the exhaust might have to be tweaked a little, but it should fit).

The Windsor stroker kits aren't too expensive and aren't that bad for engine life. Mine has 35,000 miles on it and it still feels like new.

[bmc69]

Originally Posted by FordFascist

You can build a 400 to make some serious torque, but I still think a 351W stroked would make for an easier swap as most of the 302 components would fit with little modification. Also, none of the motor mounts, bellhousing or exhaust would have to be changed (the exhaust might have to be tweaked a little, but it should fit).

The Windsor stroker kits aren't too expensive and aren't that bad for engine life. Mine has 35,000 miles on it and it still feels like new.

True enough. I'm running the entire Np435/NP205 drivetrain behind my 408C..if you want the easier swap and still serious torque, the stroked Windsor is the way to go..not to mention that going EFI is far easier with the W engines. We use both..but stick with the Clevelands for the really serious builds in our case. They are all good...

[skipped_Link]

Just wondering, why do you keep refering to them as "cleveland series engines? I know that there are a few parts that are interchangable between the 351/400M & the 351C but the C is a small block bell housing,
Are you running the 351C (small bell housing) with a 4" stroke?

[bmc69]

Originally Posted by skipped_Link

Just wondering, why do you keep refering to them as "cleveland series engines? I know that there are a few parts that are interchangable between the 351/400M & the 351C but the C is a small block bell housing,
Are you running the 351C (small bell housing) with a 4" stroke?

Because the 351C and 400 (and 351m POS) are all the 335-series ( or 'Cleveland') engines. The Aussies have a 302C as well. No fundamental differences in 'family differences' compared to the Windsor family, except for being designed a decade later with a vastly superior head casting geometry:

351C: block deck height similar to the 351W but with small crank journals like the 302

400: tall deck Cleveland block with 351W main journal size on the 4.00" stroke crank. Last, and most advanced, push-rod V8 ever designed and built by all automotive manufacturers.

351m: crudely destroked 400..lousy short-cut made by Ford to fill in gap in engine families and meet production reqts.

Aussie 302C: Destroked 351C

Oh..and I call them all Clevelands because that is what Ford called them all,,though 335-series is the corect engineering designation.

[tsmall07]

Honestly, why would you swap a 400 into anything...?

i want to do it cause i found a 400 block for $50. i'm panning on building it while i'm still running the stock 302 for a while.

[Jrod-13]

Originally Posted by braxton357

Honestly, why would you swap a 400 into anything...?

words spoken by someone who has obviously never seen what a 400 can do with a couple hundred bucks in it.. the low end they make makes more than a few 460's look silly..

take a stock 400, put flat top pistons in it, a straight up timming set, and a good exhuast, then watch what they do..

[ImNotRight]

Well just somewhat recently the aftermarket really woke up for these.

When I build my 400, there wasn't shit out there that wasn't full on custom machine work and all that.

Now you can get great brand new heads, pistons in almost any flavor you want, i think you can even get aftermarket rods decently priced too.

my 400 ended up being a wet dog, but I don't think I ended up higher than 8.5:1 if even that. I think it would turn out much better this time around with a set of real heads and pistons.. I think I would try it again if I had one to rebuild.

[u2slow]

From a design standpoint, I like the Clevelands.

So what the heck is up with the oiling in the mains? Every used one I've encountered is either thumping already, or has gone south in just a few weeks.

[mj]

the oiling system is the same as any Mopar or Olds or Buick or Caddy...
could be that they are just really old. got any pictures of the mains that you claim are dead?
chevys love to spin main bearings, never seen it in a Ford

[FordFascist]

They used too large of oiling holes on the camshaft on the Cleveland series vs. their RPM potential. It's pretty easy to fix though, as all it takes is a tap and a thread-in oil flow restrictor.

[boggking]

Originally Posted by Jrod-13

words spoken by someone who has obviously never seen what a 400 can do with a couple hundred bucks in it.. the low end they make makes more than a few 460's look silly..

take a stock 400, put flat top pistons in it, a straight up timming set, and a good exhuast, then watch what they do..

This is a good start. Bush the rods float the pins and you have your choice of 351 Cleveland pistons. Flat tops with zero" compression height netted a 10.11 compression ratio with 76cc open chamber Cleveland 4V heads. Add an intake spacer kit and tall shaft MSD dist to make it all fit together. Hotrod the oil system to take care of the oiling woes. Throw in the normal proformance upgrades and you're good to go.

I ran this combo for thirteen years trouble free untill I swamped it and hydrauliced the rods. This thing rocked. It would rev 6 grand all day, everyday(rev limiter). Fuel economy was a pleasant surprise. Better than twice the mileage of the 460 I'm running now. Most people would call "BULLSHIT" when I told them it was a 400 after seeing it perform. This motor sounded like it belonged on a high banks of Daytona Speedway in the spring time.

[bmc69]

It's even easier than that now. The new Keith Black 400 hyper pistons just came out and they are specifically designed to wake up the 400 from a compression standpoint, including 'fixing' the large deck clearance issue (previously dealt with as noted above..among other tricks) and providing the correct quench to work well with the Aussie 2V Cleveland closed-chamber heads...which are themselves becoming more plentiful - and hence cheaper - as time passes.

And then there is the new 4.25" 400 stroker kit out with KB forged pistons, H-beam rods..for building a 434 ci torque monster. The first dyno runs on a 434 exceed 530 ft-lbs and the curve was unbelievably flat from 2000 to 5000 RPM, never dropping below 400 ft-lbs. On 91-octane pump gas. Life in the world of the 'Super Clevelands' is good.