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Old 02-18-2007, 10:56 AM   #1 (permalink)
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ford 460 valve clatter question, HELP!!

This is the 60 over 460 i have in my truck, it doesnt leak or use oil...mtor has always had the oil changed and been kept clean....has less than 20k miles on it

heres som more info....

i got the motor in a 79 f-150 i bought. It was rebuilt and installed in the truck by a shop in montana evidently and had only 13k miles on it... It was a stock rebuild with an edelbrock performer intake, 600 carb and mild cam, stock d3 heads and 72 block with dished pistons

I pulled it out and put it in the current truck....

ran it for awhile...always ran good, made good oil pressure and made no noises!

Then in 2002 i put some ported dove's with 2.19/1.76 valves, crane roller rockers, guideplates and hardened pushrods, cop cams extreme 4x4 cam with 226/234 duration at .050"

straight up timing chain, perf rpm intake etc etc

i never could get it to stop making this valve clacking noise...

It is non existant at startup, but it seems the hotter the oil gets the louder the noise.. Ive adjusted the valves a million times everywhere from 1/4 turn to 1 turn after the lash is taken up.....same thing no matter what

in fall of 05 i pulled the front clip and s3wapped to the 210/218 extreme 4x4 cam, new hyd lifters, new hardened cromoly pushrods and crane cams roller rockers....all new gaskets etc etc...

btw the old cam had no damaged lifters or any damaged lobes on the cam...

properly broke this new cam in with a high zinc content oil....

makes the exact same noises as it did with the old cam, no matter how the valves are adjusted, i havetried everything from 5-30, 10-30, 10-40. 15-40 and 20-50, i run a motorcraft filter...nothing changes it...

oil pressure is 50 psi at idle when cold, 20-25 when hot

at 1500 rpm its 75psi cold, 35-50 depending on degree of load on engine when hot

what i dont understand is why it didnt make these noises before i swapped heads and cam??

that makes me think its not an oil gallery plug problem

could there be trash somewhere in the oil passages???

would this be a geometry problem?(i woudlntthink so since its only when hot)

Could this be a volume and or pressure problem??

ANYONE HAVE ANY IDEAS???

im tired of running it like this because it just dont sound right but im running out of ideas....i know its valve clatter because of the sound

ARGHHH HELP
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Old 02-18-2007, 11:10 AM   #2 (permalink)
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at 1:45-1:48 in this video you can hear the clatter from the slightly hard run over the exhaust

If i woudl have stayed on it it would be much louder

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6nHtpPdp1s
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Old 02-18-2007, 05:09 PM   #3 (permalink)
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chatter

every think it may be the wrist pins making noise, sometimes kind of hard to distinguish from valve noise i had a 390 with similar noise i had most of teh top end new finally after i blew it spun some main bearings upon rebulid i noticed a few of my wrist pin bearings in bad shape after i got it back together never made that noise again. just my 2 cents dont knopw if that helps
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Old 02-18-2007, 05:36 PM   #4 (permalink)
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it just doesnt sound like a lower end knock. i can hear it only at the top end of the motor

it doesnt have a knock to it, its a clatter like you hear in the video
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Old 02-18-2007, 06:33 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I've been chasing a similar problem in my '88 EFI 460 for the past couple years, mine will only start at about 3000+ RPMs under a load(its a clatter like you described from the valvetrian), if I stay in it hard enough for long enough one or more cylinders will go dead, and there will be a constant ticking. My theory is that I'm collapsing lifter(s). I've tried numerous things to stop this and nothing has worked. I've heard of quite a few 385 series engines with these problems, I think its probably oil PSI related, just because you have good PSI at the sending unit doesn't mean its getting it at the lifters.

My only advice is to put in a good set of lifters (not auto store cheapo's) and find a high pressure (not high volume) oil pump. So far none of the engine builders I have talked to have given me a definitive answer on what is causing this or how to fix it.
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Old 02-18-2007, 07:08 PM   #6 (permalink)
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grab a timing light and make the engine tick. check the ticks to flashes from the light it will help you find out if it is bottom end or top.

it is really hard to hear in that video.

just hammer on it some more till it gets louder.
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Old 02-18-2007, 07:34 PM   #7 (permalink)
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When you change the heads I'll bet you put some ballsy ass valve springs in there, right? They may be too tight and not allowing the lifters to pump up at all. Vert, maybe yours are just a little too tight and they hold up too 3G. I can't take credit for this, it just came up on another board recently and somebody who knows gobs more about engines suggested it. It makes sense b/c both of these guys have went over the valve trains thoroughly multiple times, changed cams, changed blocks, yada, yad, yada. The only constant seems to be the springs stregnth as they've never been changed.
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Old 02-18-2007, 07:42 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Not piston clatter is it? Solid lifters and be done with it
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Old 02-18-2007, 08:22 PM   #9 (permalink)
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yes i do have some ballsy ass valve springs in it....maybe it is time for a solid roller cam and lifters

mine seems to make the noise morer the hotter the oil temp gets...no matter if its idle or at 5k rpm...doesnt change except with the temp of the oil


definitly not anything lower end, its valtrain noise...im surprised yall cant hear it int he video, from 1:45-148 i can hear it loud and clear


yall think solid roller lifters would solve the problem??


how often do you normally have to adjust the valves in a soli lifter motor??? are they and more noisy than hyd lifter motors when properly adjusted???
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Old 02-18-2007, 08:46 PM   #10 (permalink)
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can you run regular solid lifters with any cam or does the cam have to be specifically made for solid lifters???

i dont see why you couldnt run solid lifters on a fairly mild cam???

what about solid rollers??? they could be run on any flat tappet designed cam right??? you woudl just be loosing part of the advantage of roller lifters due to the steep ramps that can be run with roller lifters...correct or no???
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Old 02-18-2007, 08:54 PM   #11 (permalink)
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what oil you running?
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Old 02-18-2007, 08:57 PM   #12 (permalink)
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ive been running rotella 15-40 for awhile now....

but i have tried 5w20, 5w30, 10w30, 10w40, and 20w50 in hot and cold conditions....none of them make any noticable difference...all with a motorcraft fl1a filter
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Old 02-18-2007, 10:16 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Doesnt the D0's take a shorter pushrod than the D3's? Or is it the block that determines the pushrod legnth? I know there is a different legnth from a 68-71 to a 73 and later, I just dont remember the specifics.
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Old 02-18-2007, 11:01 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeviGarrett76 View Post
can you run regular solid lifters with any cam or does the cam have to be specifically made for solid lifters???

i dont see why you couldnt run solid lifters on a fairly mild cam???

what about solid rollers??? they could be run on any flat tappet designed cam right??? you woudl just be loosing part of the advantage of roller lifters due to the steep ramps that can be run with roller lifters...correct or no???
It has to be a solid cam. Believe its got something to do with the ramp angle or something. Not really sure, but I am pretty sure you cant do it . I am pretty happy with my cam in my 390. Its pretty pumped up. 10.8:1, .530 lift 296 duration. I traded some dude factory adjustables for my comp cams roller rockers and polylocks. its worth it. You dont have to adjust them life everyone says. Pretty much set it once and be done with it for a good while.
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Old 02-19-2007, 06:43 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeviGarrett76 View Post
yes i do have some ballsy ass valve springs in it....maybe it is time for a solid roller cam and lifters

mine seems to make the noise morer the hotter the oil temp gets...no matter if its idle or at 5k rpm...doesnt change except with the temp of the oil
Oil viscosity drops sharply when the oil heats up, as I'm sure you know. This further reduces the lifters ability to seal and hold, so that plays along with the symptoms I believe. That's why I suggested it. When I heard it, it seemed to be the logical point of focus with all of the ordinary stuff checked over and over again.
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Old 02-19-2007, 07:08 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Just for shits and giggles try running SAE 30 in it, I bet it would help.
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Old 02-19-2007, 08:58 AM   #17 (permalink)
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If the springs are indeed too strong for the lifters, changing the viscosity of the oil will not help. You have to adress the root problem.
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Old 02-19-2007, 04:37 PM   #18 (permalink)
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can you run regular solid lifters with any cam or does the cam have to be specifically made for solid lifters???

i dont see why you couldnt run solid lifters on a fairly mild cam???

what about solid rollers??? they could be run on any flat tappet designed cam right??? you woudl just be loosing part of the advantage of roller lifters due to the steep ramps that can be run with roller lifters...correct or no???
The cam has to be designed for the type of lifter. A roller cam is made of Billet steel and a hydraulic or solid lifter cam is forged. You can not interchange lifters. Also a hydraulic cam has a different lobe profile than a solid so swapping lifters between them is not recommended. If tiy go roller you will also have to replace your driven gear on your distributor to a bronze gear to keep from eating gears.

Sounds like you are over powering your lifters with spring pressure. You may want to check your exhaust guides also. They will make a noise as you described and the sound will seem to move around if they are a little too loose.
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Old 02-19-2007, 08:10 PM   #19 (permalink)
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so if the lifters are being over powered...should i go to a solid cam and lifters or install lighter valve springs???

I have had 3-4 sets of lifters in it since these heads have been on


I dont know where to start, it seems like theres too many possiblities...

would pushrods at the incorrect length do this?
it could be too stiff of valve springs?
For all i know they are the wrong springs....when i had these heads ported and built i gave them the cam specs and what comp reccomended and trsuted them to install the right springs???

I know its not bent pushrods because these pushrods are the fat daddy chromo rods....i dont see how they could be bent......

Ive tried every viscocity of oil....it doesnt really make a difference


FANG:.. Would the exhaust guide noise vary with the oil tempurature/thickness???? OR do they tend to just loosen up as the engine warms?

How would i got about checking the exhaust guides???? remove the rocker arm and wiggle the valve?? or do i have to pull the heads and drop the valves???
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Old 02-19-2007, 08:26 PM   #20 (permalink)
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i would go with the lifters being over powered by the valve springs - its hard to hear in the vid - i would try putting a factor set of springs on ( aka used ) and run her and listen - i have had 2 460 that had this problem - one was a shop truck that thad the heads replaced / rebuilt that i installed - turns out that the shop i got the heads from put hd valve springs on ( i told them it had a cam - a very mild rv cam ) put on stockers and the noise went away -the other engine had been rebuilt / installed by a customer in his car and it turned out to be the wrong push rods - too long - the valves would bottom out and make a clicking like loose lifters - ( fun to see - ran with no v- covers at 2500 - 4000 rpm reving - oil every where ) they wouldnt bottom out when adj all the way out - but not enough threads to hold the lifter on - just when hot
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Old 02-19-2007, 08:30 PM   #21 (permalink)
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as for checking the valves - pull the rockers and the springs and open slightly - and wiggle - a dial indicator helps - sorry dont knoe the specs off hand - would have to be pretty bad to make the noise your talking about
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Old 02-19-2007, 09:24 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Did you go with the cj valves when you had the doves done? If you did they almost always go with the heavy double springs and I think the gang is on the right track with the hydro lifters being overpowered. A solid roller cam is the way to go, or at least a solid cam. I had the same problem you did when I put on the hipo doves with a hydraulic cam.......solid cam and lifters.....no more problem.
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Old 02-20-2007, 05:18 PM   #23 (permalink)
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they aint the 2.24 cj valves....they are 2.19 valves of uunknown origin....thats wha ti told them to use....Im beginning to think the springs may be too tight

What are the disadvantages to a solid cam motor that will see maybe 1k miles a year and is never driven on the street except maybe to the gas station? I just need to check the lash once or twice a year correct??

What are the advantages of a solid cam/ lifter setup?

For my 400 or so horepower theres no reason to go to solid roller is there? I wouldnt think i could take advantage of the roller lifter's benifits when keeping my my bottom end torque power level







Seth was your problem identical to mine?? only when hot and the harder you ran it the worse the noise got until the motor colled back down some???

Were you able to hear the clatter noise in the video around 1:45???
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Old 02-20-2007, 06:16 PM   #24 (permalink)
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if you drive less than 1k a year - you should only have to adjust them once a year at best - my 428cj had solid lifters and i did it when i noticed the clatter- around 15k i think -
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Old 02-20-2007, 06:29 PM   #25 (permalink)
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With good roller rockers, you shouldnt lose any adjusrtment if you only drive it that amount. Roller is un needed, I would spend money else where.
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