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Old 03-02-2008, 10:20 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Exclamation Low power 1986 F250 w/460. Trouble shooting ideas?

I don't seem to have much power with this pig. Running Ford Holley 750CFM vac sec.

Here is what I have done so far:

Replaced carb with reman'd
Replaced plug wires with Accel 8.5 set
Replaced cap and rotor
Replaced plugs
Replaced coil
Set timing to factory specs 8* BTC (was 15* BTC and ran much better)
Checked Vaccum adv. and was working when adjusted timing
Replaced throttle cable (it broke so I had too, not included in t/s process)
Checked vaccum (sits at 18 and holds steady at 22 with higher RPMs)
Had a friend that owns a shop do an exhaust gas test and tune A/F mixer (was origninally running at 8000 HC then tune down to 300 at idle).

Later today i will check if I am getting full throttle through pedal (need extra leg).

I do only have 3.55 gears (according to tag which I believe is accurate) and C6, but I can only get 65-70 MPH at full throttle up small grade and I'm having hard time getting the kick down and secondaries to open from 45 MPH and up. I don't think I am getting secondaries to open at all.

All connections are factory location. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 03-02-2008, 05:54 PM   #2 (permalink)
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What are the compression readings?
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Old 03-02-2008, 07:09 PM   #3 (permalink)
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What are the compression readings?
That is one thing that I have not checked yet. I do know that it doesn't smoke, at all. It only has 84K original miles and was mostly driven by an older couple from Oregon to hall their boat and fifth wheel trailer. I bought it from the original owner.
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Old 03-02-2008, 07:23 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Put a fuel pressure guage on there at the carb, after the orafice valve. I wouldn't be suprised if the in-tank pumps are getting weak. Mine would fall flat on it's face with WOT past 2500 rpm in 4th gear before I switched it to an external pump.
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Old 03-02-2008, 10:49 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Put a fuel pressure guage on there at the carb, after the orafice valve. I wouldn't be suprised if the in-tank pumps are getting weak. Mine would fall flat on it's face with WOT past 2500 rpm in 4th gear before I switched it to an external pump.
if its an 86 and has a carb, i would imagine it has a mechanical fuel pump.

if you've got the carb dialed in and a strong ignition, i would suspect clogged exhaust, dirty or obstructed air filter or just a worn out high mileage motor in need of a rebuild. if whats all you've said is true.
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Old 03-03-2008, 06:46 AM   #6 (permalink)
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if its an 86 and has a carb, i would imagine it has a mechanical fuel pump.

if you've got the carb dialed in and a strong ignition, i would suspect clogged exhaust, dirty or obstructed air filter or just a worn out high mileage motor in need of a rebuild. if whats all you've said is true.
Yes it is a mechanical pump and has dual tanks. Everything functions fine on that end. I have replaced the air filter (forgot to mention that one). The motor only has 84K original miles, as stated earlier.

I did notice, after getting the extra leg to check the throttle opening at full pedal, that there is about another 1/2" I can throw the throttle at the carb. The factory cable maybe the limiting factor here.

I think I will crimp a stop further up the throttle cable to take up some of the slack. Then again I could just trim the carpet back a little where the gas pedal hits.
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Old 03-04-2008, 10:32 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Hmm, I forgot about this.
If it has a mechanical pump, that is NOT stock. These trucks(83-87) came from the factory with electric in tank pumps(low pressure ones from the 2 pump efi system), an orifice valve at the carb, and a return line. Ford called it the "hot fuel handling system." Another of Ford's bright ideas, it does prevent vapor locking though, it's just totally oddball. If you note my signature, I've got two of these pigs.
My wheeler, when I got it, the guts of the stock muffler had all broken loose and were plugging things off. The factory exhaust on these trucks(which is non-cat) is all stainless, except for the guts of the muffler it seems... LOL
But, if you have that much free play at the pedal, take it up and go from there.
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Old 03-05-2008, 12:28 AM   #8 (permalink)
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The factory exhaust on these trucks(which is non-cat) is all stainless, except for the guts of the muffler it seems... LOL
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stainless?

are you for real

try aluminized
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Old 03-05-2008, 05:00 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Hmm, I forgot about this.
If it has a mechanical pump, that is NOT stock. These trucks(83-87) came from the factory with electric in tank pumps(low pressure ones from the 2 pump efi system), an orifice valve at the carb, and a return line. Ford called it the "hot fuel handling system." Another of Ford's bright ideas, it does prevent vapor locking though, it's just totally oddball. If you note my signature, I've got two of these pigs.
I will take a look at it this morning. I thought it was mech, but now that you mentioned an "orifice valve at the carb," sounds more like the setup I saw. I wondered what that was. It has all hard lines in and out. One to the carb and two going back under the motor. One of them coming off the top of the valve.

TroyM your right. I wish it was stainless. Probably would have cost another $3K off the lot with stainless exhaust. Ford has "great" ideas.
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Old 03-05-2008, 05:58 AM   #10 (permalink)
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It's not aluminized, that stuff doesn't last 20+ years in the rust belt, I just took the factory pipes off of the wheeling rig last spring, and the backup tow pig still has the factory stuff on it... I'm not talking good aftermarket stainless, it's the crappy factory stainless that Dodge was famous for for a while...

As for your fuel line setup, you've got electric pumps on there for sure.
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Old 03-05-2008, 06:14 AM   #11 (permalink)
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As for your fuel line setup, you've got electric pumps on there for sure.
So will these types of pumps, if running low on PSI, effect the performance? I don't have any stalling/studdering issues, just doesn't seem to be performing the way I remember a 460 running.

Maybe it is my gearing that is the issue. That coupled with the fact that it is 5560 lbs. on the scale. I will address the throttle slack and see where I end up.

thanks!
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Old 03-05-2008, 09:14 AM   #12 (permalink)
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What happens when you hit speed?
Does it buck?
Cut out?
RPMS raise but truck goes no where?

Those trucks were not power houses, I think Ford only rated them around 175 HP.
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Old 03-05-2008, 09:43 AM   #13 (permalink)
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What happens when you hit speed?
Does it buck?
Cut out?
RPMS raise but truck goes no where?

Those trucks were not power houses, I think Ford only rated them around 175 HP.
By speed I am assuming you would mean the posted hwy speed. Annything above 55 MPH when I stab it to the floor, it slowly pics up when on flat ground. Uphill is even slower and downhill is better but still not a screamer. I can not get it to kick down above 50 MPH. I don't think I have ever heard the secondaries open.

NO bucking, NO cutting out, RPMs raise but doesn't jump to attention. Maybe I just have a case of wishful thinking.
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Old 03-05-2008, 12:12 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Does that year still have a Cat?
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Old 03-05-2008, 07:09 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Sounds like you have a throttle travel issue, or a secondary operation issue. I'm not well schooled in Holley carbs, and both of mine have Edelbrocks on them, I've never run a factory carb on one of these trucks ever... LOL...
BUT, the factory carb on these is 600 CFM IIRC, maybe 650, but, it's definatley not a 750.
No cats on the 460 until it went fuellie, carbed are the holdout dinosaurs, with dual air pumps and all kinds of good things.
IIRC, the power ratings for 86 were 245 hp/385 ft/lb, stock, it's not a hell of alot of power for a 460, but, standing on it at 50 should give a good kick in the pants.

Does it accelerate decentley before it hits third, or if you manually downshift it to second? You could also be in need of a kickdown linkage adjustment.
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Old 03-05-2008, 07:55 PM   #16 (permalink)
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That missing throttle travel shouldn't make that much difference. You'd be able to meaure the difference if you were running at a drag strip, but the vast majority of your power comes in the first 2/3 of the throttle opening. The last 1/3 is just a touch of icing for the cake.

When you measure the fuel pressure, be sure to do it with a load on the engine by power-braking. If it's a little low, it wouldn't hurt to blow out the lines with compressed air and put another new fuel filter in it. You could also pull that bypass orifice unit out and give it a good cleaning to see if maybe a bit of gunk is restricting the fuel flow.

It's also possible that you've got a badly worn camshaft or other valvetrain issues. I've had that happen before and it caused the engine to run very smooth and get surprisingly good gas mileage, but it just didn't have any pep... How's your gas mileage? And where are those compression readings?
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Old 03-05-2008, 09:28 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Sounds like you have a throttle travel issue, or a secondary operation issue. I'm not well schooled in Holley carbs, and both of mine have Edelbrocks on them, I've never run a factory carb on one of these trucks ever... LOL...
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BUT, the factory carb on these is 600 CFM IIRC, maybe 650, but, it's definatley not a 750. Does it accelerate decentley before it hits third, or if you manually downshift it to second? You could also be in need of a kickdown linkage adjustment.
I didn't think it was a 750CFM either. But that's what the book called for, either of them actually. Maybe I should take is back to the parts store and get the 600.

Yes it does excellerate decently off idle to 50 ish, on flat ground. Haven't tried the manual shift down at freeway speed. At 3000 RPM I am traveling 69 MPH. with a C6 I'm not sure I want to try that. I will around 55 though and get back info.



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When you measure the fuel pressure, be sure to do it with a load on the engine by power-braking. If it's a little low, it wouldn't hurt to blow out the lines with compressed air and put another new fuel filter in it. You could also pull that bypass orifice unit out and give it a good cleaning to see if maybe a bit of gunk is restricting the fuel flow.
I will try to clean those out this weekend.

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It's also possible that you've got a badly worn camshaft or other valvetrain issues. I've had that happen before and it caused the engine to run very smooth and get surprisingly good gas mileage, but it just didn't have any pep... How's your gas mileage? And where are those compression readings?
Wouldn't I have shitty vaccum then. Everything else seems to perform well. Gas mileage is a shitty 8 MPG, loaded, empty, uphill, downhill, tailwind, sitting in the driveway not running. Doesn't seem to matter.

As far as compression readings. I will try and get to that. I am working as much as possible and taking care of my g/f that has what they think is a 23cm hemangioma/carcinoma in her liver and a 1.2cm adnoma or hemangioma in her L4 vertebrae.

I will get info back as soon as I can. Thanks for all the help thus far.
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Old 03-06-2008, 05:11 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Hmm, I forgot about this.
If it has a mechanical pump, that is NOT stock. These trucks(83-87) came from the factory with electric in tank pumps(low pressure ones from the 2 pump efi system), an orifice valve at the carb, and a return line. Ford called it the "hot fuel handling system." Another of Ford's bright ideas, it does prevent vapor locking though, it's just totally oddball. If you note my signature, I've got two of these pigs.
Was that just on 83-87 F250/350s with the 460?

Because I had an 84 F250 4x4 with a 351W and it had a mech. fuel pump. When I got it, both fuel pickup/sending units had to be cleaned up as there was a thick gel encasing the shotgun shell looking filters and so much varnish that the float handle was stuck.
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Old 03-06-2008, 10:03 AM   #19 (permalink)
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As far as I know, it was 460 only, the 351W's I have seen in over 8500 GVWR trucks did run a return line, but, with a mechanical pump at the engine.
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Old 03-06-2008, 10:17 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Does it accelerate decentley before it hits third, or if you manually downshift it to second? You could also be in need of a kickdown linkage adjustment.
my slut has no kickdown and I just put a stock VB back in it. If the vac "thing" that controls the shifting is all good it shouldn't matter that much.
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Old 03-06-2008, 02:53 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Wish I could get 8 MPG out of my 89 fuel injected 460! Best I've done yet is 6.2...
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Old 03-06-2008, 03:38 PM   #22 (permalink)
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my slut has no kickdown and I just put a stock VB back in it. If the vac "thing" that controls the shifting is all good it shouldn't matter that much.
I have a mechanical kickdown/bent thing. Vaccum controls the secondaries.


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Wish I could get 8 MPG out of my 89 fuel injected 460! Best I've done yet is 6.2...
Maybe you just have a heavier go pedal and it's harder to hold up for so long. I guess I am just lucky and should STFU, huh? The question is, are the fun miles?
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Old 03-06-2008, 04:26 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I have a mechanical kickdown/bent thing. Vaccum controls the secondaries.




Maybe you just have a heavier go pedal and it's harder to hold up for so long. I guess I am just lucky and should STFU, huh? The question is, are the fun miles?
The vaccum controls when the tranny shifts. If it is set up correctly it would also make the tranny downshift.
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Old 03-06-2008, 04:32 PM   #24 (permalink)
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You're thinking of the Vacuum Modulator Mikey... It is more in control of upshifts than downshifts. I know I used to have a 300/C6 setup that had no kickdown, and no way in hell would it kick down out of third on it's own under acceleration. Same trans behind a 351W with the kickdown hooked up worked flawlessly.
Automagics are greek to me tho....
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Old 03-06-2008, 05:08 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by 82F100SWB View Post
You're thinking of the Vacuum Modulator Mikey... It is more in control of upshifts than downshifts. I know I used to have a 300/C6 setup that had no kickdown, and no way in hell would it kick down out of third on it's own under acceleration. Same trans behind a 351W with the kickdown hooked up worked flawlessly.
Automagics are greek to me tho....
Hrm. Mine has no kick down on it at all. If you kick it it will downshift. Its a stock VB out of a JY tranny too. Not like it's anything special.

EDIT
Quote:
Originally Posted by JGVABronco78 View Post

The vacuum modulator, when hooked up, leak-free, and adjusted properly, will dictate proper upshifts and down shifts in any gear based on speed(governor valve position) and engine load(governor body position) w/o any input from the throttle valve. A minor delay in full-throttle downshifts may be noticeable w/o the TV input, but in most driving situations that is not of great consequence. When utilized and adjusted properly, in a like manner, the TV can delay the upshift or hasten the downshift of any gear in the exact same manner as the modulator, but done soley by throttle position alone. In case you didn't catch this already, the TV and VM manipulate the exact same device, the governor body, as it is related to the governor valve(which is positioned by the flyweights on the governor by speed of output). The modulator does this by means of a vacuum diaphram, and the TV does this by means of a physical rod connected to the governor body internally. You can operate the tranny almost normally w/o the TV being actuated as its function is rather limited, but you cannot operate the tranny in auto w/o a good VM or it will not shift properly. The activity through the governor valve and body are then routed back to the valve body to effect shifts accordingly.
/forum/newbie-general-4x4-discussion/660954-ford-c6-shifting-valve-bodies.html#post7930554
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Last edited by 94stepsideford; 03-06-2008 at 05:13 PM.
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