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Old 03-23-2011, 11:04 PM   #1 (permalink)
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4 or 5 speed swap from f150 w/ e40od

Searched around but couldn't find specifically what I wanted. I have a 94 f150 351/e40od/1365 and the trannys on its way out and want to swap in a manual trans. After a little research, sounds like a zf 5 speed is a good swap. what I couldn't find are answers to the following:

1. I'm running 42's with 4.10 tons and it sucks, tranny doesn't know when to shift up hills, gotta wind it up just to get home (i live up a steep hill), haven't wheeled it yet cause I know its gonna suck and that'll probably be the last of the e40od. I know I need to regear, and I plan to in the future, but can't afford anything right now. I know I have to replace the tranny so I'm gonna start with that. which manual trans has lower gearing?

2. What bolts up to my 351 bellhousing and is the easiest/cheapest swap? I've read I'll have to move x member, d shafts, etc. no big deal, but if rather not have to change bellhousing etc

3. In my search I was kind of confused as to the difference in the diesel/gas trannys, explain? Also, diesels are extremely hard to find at the local yards so that wouldn't be ideal

4. what trannys came in what trucks, year, etc? What should I look for at the yard?

Thanks in advance
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Old 03-23-2011, 11:38 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Btw, good info I found in my search:
http://classicbroncos.com/tranny-zf.shtml

http://fullsizebronco.com/forum/show...?threadid=1712

found a lot of good info on fsb.com but nothing that definitively answered my q's
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Old 03-23-2011, 11:49 PM   #3 (permalink)
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good luck finding a small block 4x4 ZF. they are worth their weight in gold and super rare. and you have to battle the early bronco guys for them.

if you dont need OD, run a t18 or np435. way cheaper and easier to find. plus in my opinion they shift better and are more robust. plus with 4.10s and 42's you wouldnt use overdrive anyway
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Old 03-23-2011, 11:54 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by mjlogan88 View Post
good luck finding a small block 4x4 ZF. they are worth their weight in gold and super rare. and you have to battle the early bronco guys for them.

if you dont need OD, run a t18 or np435. way cheaper and easier to find. plus in my opinion they shift better and are more robust. plus with 4.10s and 42's you wouldnt use overdrive anyway
Yeah what got me started on the 5 speed was a buddy found one at the local pick n pull and wants to swap it in his full size bronco. But I think it was behind an inline six, so he'll probably have to swap bellhousing etc id assume.

With the gearing I have I'd want a pretty close ratio between gears and assumed the five soured would correct
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Old 03-24-2011, 08:10 AM   #5 (permalink)
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The 300 I6, 302, and 351 are the same bell. The problem is the small block ZF-5s only came in 351 equipped 3/4 and 1 ton trucks, when most came diesel or 460 powered.

My advice is that of the above, find a cheap 4 speed that will hold up to just about any abuse and offer a better low gear than the ZF. Unless you plan on a gear swap then you will need the better low gear and won't need the overdrive.

Oh, and the diesel trans and the 460 trans are different bellhousings. 460 shares the bottom 4 bolt holes with the small block bell, and the diesel bell shares the top two holes with the 460 bell. Gotta love Ford parts interchange.
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Old 04-30-2011, 11:28 AM   #6 (permalink)
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But I think it was behind an inline six, so he'll probably have to swap bellhousing, etc., I'd assume.

With the gearing I have I'd want a pretty close ratio between gears and assumed the five soured would correct
The bellhousings are part of the transmission, so you have to find the right trans for your application. Also, gas versions are a wider ratio with a 5.72 low gear, but the diesel version has a closer ratio with a 4.14 1st gear....

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The 300 I6, 302, and 351 are the same bell. The problem is the small block ZF-5s only came in 351 equipped 3/4 and 1 ton trucks, when most came diesel or 460 powered.
Actually, there were some F-250's that came with the 4.9 and the ZF-5.... I'm getting ready to buy one as we speak.

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good luck finding a small block 4x4 ZF. If you dont need OD, run a t18 or np435. Way cheaper and easier to find. Plus, in my opinion they shift better and are more robust.
I've driven plenty of old 4 speed trucks, and almost all of them shifted like crap. I'd much rather drive a ZF-5 equipped truck.... plus, it's an easy swap if you get all the parts from the same year truck. I swapped out my C6 for a ZF, there's really no custom fabrication required.
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Old 04-30-2011, 12:35 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by lochenjons View Post
Searched around but couldn't find specifically what I wanted. I have a 94 f150 351/e40od/1365 and the trannys on its way out and want to swap in a manual trans. After a little research, sounds like a zf 5 speed is a good swap. what I couldn't find are answers to the following:

1. I'm running 42's with 4.10 tons and it sucks, tranny doesn't know when to shift up hills, gotta wind it up just to get home (i live up a steep hill), haven't wheeled it yet cause I know its gonna suck and that'll probably be the last of the e40od. I know I need to regear, and I plan to in the future, but can't afford anything right now. I know I have to replace the tranny so I'm gonna start with that. which manual trans has lower gearing?

2. What bolts up to my 351 bellhousing and is the easiest/cheapest swap? I've read I'll have to move x member, d shafts, etc. no big deal, but if rather not have to change bellhousing etc

3. In my search I was kind of confused as to the difference in the diesel/gas trannys, explain? Also, diesels are extremely hard to find at the local yards so that wouldn't be ideal

4. what trannys came in what trucks, year, etc? What should I look for at the yard?

Thanks in advance
1. The Big Block ZF I have now, and the Smallblock ZF that I sold had the 5.72:1 first gear. Gas engines will have the Wide ratio because they have more of an RPM range than diesels. All the ZF trannys have integral bellhousings.
Go here for the gear ratios, years, etc: http://www.mackstrans.com/ZFID.html
and here to figure out gear ratios: www.pitbulltires.com/calculate.php
As far as your hill starts: You are looking at 2000RPM with 4.10s and 42s in 1st gear of a smallblock ZF, and about 10mph.
Cruising? 70mph in 5th gear with the same gear tire combo is ~1745RPM. 4.56 would put you at 1940RPM, and 4.88 would be 2077RPM.

2.You will find that 4.9L Inline 6, 5.0L V8, 5.8L V8 are definitely the same, and I *think* the 3.8L V6 all use the same bell housing (as well as the 4.6L and 5.4L modular engines possibly?). As far as I know, M5OD, ZFs5-42/47, and E4OD are all going to have the crossmember and everything in the same place. The driveshafts will be the same too. I know for sure on the manual stuff, not certain on the auto.

3 and 4: see one and two. Basically, ZF5 can be found in F-250 & F-350 1988 and newer FOR SURE. The 351W was the smallest engine you could get in those trucks (non-special order). I believe the 4.9L was a special order option, but the 5.0L was not (girlie ass car motor ain't durable enough for man-truck). Oh, and just so you know, the BW1356 low range is 2.62:1
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Old 04-30-2011, 02:07 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I believe the 4.9L was a special order option
So you're saying the '91 F-250 that I found, with the 4.9/ZF5 combo, is a rare machine?
Sweet, I bet it's worth way more than a diesel or 460 truck....
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Old 04-30-2011, 02:15 PM   #9 (permalink)
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So you're saying the '91 F-250 that I found, with the 4.9/ZF5 combo, is a rare machine?
Sweet, I bet it's worth way more than a diesel or 460 truck....
From what I have seen, yes. I've seen more carb'd 80-86 F-250s with the 4.9L than I have 87-91 (I've only seen one). I've seen more F-250s with semi-float 10.25"s auto trannys and 302s than I have ZF5/4.9L in the 87-91 body. I've never seen any 92-96 with that combo.
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Old 04-30-2011, 02:16 PM   #10 (permalink)
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So you're saying the '91 F-250 that I found, with the 4.9/ZF5 combo, is a rare machine?
Sweet, I bet it's worth way more than a diesel or 460 truck....
And if you can buy it, I would do so. Meaning, if its available, driveable, an in good shape I personally would purchase it upon inspection to verify it was worth a shit.
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Old 04-30-2011, 02:27 PM   #11 (permalink)
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why not get the right gears so you dont sit and smoke clutches on the manual.
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Old 04-30-2011, 08:47 PM   #12 (permalink)
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And if you can buy it, I would do so. Meaning, if its available, driveable, an in good shape I personally would purchase it upon inspection to verify it was worth a shit.
The guy wants $500 for it, because he can't get it out of low range. I didn't tell him he could buy a used BW1356 for $100 and swap it out in a couple of hours....

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Why not get the right gears so you dont sit and smoke clutches on the manual?
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I know I need to regear, and I plan to in the future, but can't afford anything right now. I know I have to replace the tranny so I'm gonna start with that.
I believe if you read his first post you would understand....
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Old 04-30-2011, 09:22 PM   #13 (permalink)
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The guy wants $500 for it, because he can't get it out of low range. I didn't tell him he could buy a used BW1356 for $100 and swap it out in a couple of hours....

I believe if you read his first post you would understand....
Holy mackrel dude. Is it 4x4? if it is, Buy it. Are you in California? I am in IN. I have a PTO BW1356 laying around. I swear to God, if it is a factory 4.9L truck, I would buy it off of you in a heart beat for double what he's asking. I want one of those to swap a D60 into. I already have my BBF V8 5 speed truck. A BBF I6 5 speed truck is another one on my list. Folks think I'm a lil off because I like leaf springs better than coil springs. I almost built a 4.9L/ZF5/PTO1356/60/10.25 truck out of a RCLB F-150 and an CCLB F-350 I had. Instead I traded the F-150 for an 88 F-250 460 truck, sold the ZF, scrapped the body and frame of the CCLB, and stole the axles for my 88. WHEW! Never had an urge to go to California until recently, when I realized you guys don't have rusty vehicles, and trucks sell for CHEAP.
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Old 04-30-2011, 09:47 PM   #14 (permalink)
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The guy wants $500 for it, because he can't get it out of low range.
That is probably from the tranfer balling up the oil pump and slamming the range fork into low range.

42s and 4.10 gears are not the best plan for a 351 in a full size rig.
Yes, he wants to regear but can't afford everything at once.
So a cheap 4-speed saves money but is more gear limited and doesn't shift as nice for a daily driver.
Or find a small block 4x4 ZF and run that (forgetting about using overdrive until he can regear).
Since a daily driver was brought up, I would look for the ZF. Be careful that they don't pull a fast one and present you with the Mazda 5-speed, that is a half ton truck transmission.
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Old 04-30-2011, 10:38 PM   #15 (permalink)
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A ZF is easily recognizable. Other than the fact that it has a big ZF Ford plate on the driver side, it also has opposing diagonal ribs cast into the case that form a latticework of diamonds on both sides. Also, the ZF has PTO ports on both sides. The Mazda M5OD and M5R2 do not. You would have to be one dumb sum bitch to not be able to spot the difference from 25 yards away.

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http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/10...-2-tranny.html
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Old 04-30-2011, 10:42 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Holy mackrel dude. Is it 4x4? if it is, Buy it. Are you in California? I am in IN. I have a PTO BW1356 laying around. I swear to God, if it is a factory 4.9L truck, I would buy it off of you in a heart beat for double what he's asking. I want one of those to swap a D60 into. Never had an urge to go to California until recently, when I realized you guys don't have rusty vehicles, and trucks sell for CHEAP.
The transfer case is stuck in low range, so I assume it's a 4x4!

Yeah, F-150s & F-250s are cheap.... but most F-350s are parted out. People out here think Dana 60s are worth $1500!

The last truck I bought was a '94 CC 4x4, IDI turbo, 5 speed. Paid $500 for it, swapped the 5 speed into my truck, sold the engine without the injection pump for $400 (it was toast), my C6 for $200 (it needed rebuilt), sold the Dana 60/Sterling for $700....

The same guy has another crew cab 4x4, I think it's a '95 w/ a 5.8/5 speed. Last time I saw him he asked me if I wanted to buy it, but I didn't have any money.

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42s and 4.10 gears are not the best plan for a 351 in a full size rig. Find a small block 4x4 ZF and run that (forgetting about using overdrive until he can regear).
I'm running a diesel w/ 37s and 4.10 gears, and it's just right!

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ZF S5-42
This picture just gave me a flashback.... of me and a buddy hoisting one of those heavy bastards into my truck!
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Old 04-30-2011, 10:47 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Also, regarding internal VS external slave cylinder: My 88 ZF in my F-250 w/ EFI 460 has external. My 1990 ZF in my F-350 w/ 5.8L was internal. My buddy had a ZF 5 in a 1995 F-350 behind a Power Stroke that had an external slave cylinder. I prefer external.
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Old 04-30-2011, 10:52 PM   #18 (permalink)
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The transfer case is stuck in low range, so I assume it's a 4x4!

Yeah, F-150s & F-250s are cheap.... but most F-350s are parted out. People out here think Dana 60s are worth $1500!

The last truck I bought was a '94 CC 4x4, IDI turbo, 5 speed. Paid $500 for it, swapped the 5 speed into my truck, sold the engine without the injection pump for $400 (it was toast), my C6 for $200 (it needed rebuilt), sold the Dana 60/Sterling for $700....

The same guy has another crew cab 4x4, I think it's a '95 w/ a 5.8/5 speed. Last time I saw him he asked me if I wanted to buy it, but I didn't have any money.

I'm running a diesel w/ 37s and 4.10 gears, and it's just right!
Its been a LOONG day. I actually edited to add that I was thinking low range as in the 5.72 first gear I guess. Seriously. If you wanted to buy it just to sell it, I am totally interested. I wouldn't mind finding a 96-97 RCLB 460/ZF5 4x4 truck either. 250 or 350, doesn't matter to me.
I am running 4.10s, and will be running 37s with a 460. According to the calculator, the numbers are just right. Too many of these guys are trying to build crawlers that won't ever see anything over 45 or 50mph. My truck goes on the road too, so I'm not skeert of higher axle gears. Thats why they make 2 speed transfer cases!
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Old 04-30-2011, 10:56 PM   #19 (permalink)
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This picture just gave me a flashback.... of me and a buddy hoisting one of those heavy bastards into my truck!
I can carry one by myself, between my legs, with a 2" wide log sling around the bell and tail. It was awkward, but I moved it 300 feet from one end of the yard to the other with no breaks. Just ran the straps over my shoulders. They are rather heavy.
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[COLOR="Blue"][QUOTE=Texas97;13281566]dont know why... unless its some new hippie tree hugger brady campaign sissy ass bedwetter gun control nanny state facist orwellian barbara streisand law that just passed....[/QUOTE][/COLOR]

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Old 04-30-2011, 11:35 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Seriously. If you wanted to buy it just to sell it, I am totally interested. I wouldn't mind finding a 96-97 RCLB 460/ZF5 4x4 truck either. 250 or 350, doesn't matter to me.
You know that I'm 2200 miles from Indiana, right?

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I can carry one by myself, between my legs, with a 2" wide log sling around the bell and tail. It was awkward, but I moved it 300 feet from one end of the yard to the other with no breaks. Just ran the straps over my shoulders. They are rather heavy.
I probably shouldn't be whining, I have a backhoe to carry heavy stuff around with!
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Old 04-30-2011, 11:52 PM   #21 (permalink)
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You know that I'm 2200 miles from Indiana, right?

I probably shouldn't be whining, I have a backhoe to carry heavy stuff around with!
Thats only $2500 in gas.
If I got it for $1000 it would be worth it! At some point I see myself going out there to get a few trucks. You gotta realize, trucks you guys would send to the crusher look mint to rust belt folks. My 88, I am picking rust flakes that are 3"x1"x1/4" off of the frame. Understand that in all reality I am not loosing that much frame or anything, because rust actually bubbles and gets thicker, but still, starting out with a rust free frame and rust free dent free cab and bed (or entire body) would be amazing. At this point on my truck, I am going to have to remove the bed, wiring harness, fuel tanks, fuel lines, and brake lines from the frame so I can wire wheel it, rust treat it, and paint it. I've kind of decided to just do a full restoration on it, and its a 1988!!!! I am willing to bet that the '91 you are talking about still has the paint on the frame and axles, especially if you are in the southern half of the state where it doesn't snow 15 feet.
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Old 05-01-2011, 12:39 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Location: Redding, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redpitbull44 View Post
especially if you are in the southern half of the state where it doesn't snow 15 feet.
I'm 130 miles from the Oregon border and 100 miles from the Pacific Ocean, so I've seen some very rusty vehicles.... but it's not hard to find rust free trucks around here.
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