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Old 07-21-2007, 12:00 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Pic @ ENF Ranger station...

So here's the official fire danger sign at the Georgetown El Dorado Nat'l forest Ranger station as of yesterday (been the same all month).

Yesterday I went riding on my dirt bike (in the forest up by the Rubicon) and I got stuck in some MUD (not a creek, or pond nearby).
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Old 07-21-2007, 03:36 PM   #2 (permalink)
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It's BS some see it and others are blind to it and think the FS really is looking out for them.
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Old 07-21-2007, 05:57 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I forgot to list the possible levels for reference:

http://www.fs.fed.us/r2/fire/gpc/currentfiredanger.htm

Extreme
Fires start quickly, spread furiously, and burn intensely. All fires are potentially serious. Development into high intensity burning will usually be faster and occur from smaller fires than in the very high fire danger class. Direct attack is rarely possible and may be dangerous except immediately after ignition. Fires that develop headway in heavy slash or in conifer strands may be unmanageable while the extreme burning condition lasts. Under these conditions the only effective and safe control action is on the flanks until the weather changes or the fuel supply lessens.

Very High
Fires start easily from all caused and , immediately after ignition, spread rapidly and increase quickly in intensity. Spot fires are a constant danger. Fires burning in light fuels may quickly develop high intensity characteristics such as long-distance spotting and fire whirlwinds when they burn into heavier fuels.

High
All fine dead fuels ignite readily and fires start easily from most causes. Unattended brush and campfires are likely to escape. Fires spread rapidly and short-distance spotting is common. High-intensity burning may develop on slopes or in concentrations of fine fuels. Fires may become serious and their control difficult unless they are attacked successfully while small. Extra precautions are required on outdoor burning. Fires in heavy and continuous fuels such as CRP fields or logging slash will be difficult to control under windy conditions.

Moderate
Fires can start from most accidental causes, but with the exception of lightning fires in some areas, the number of starts is generally low. Fires in open cured grasslands will burn briskly and spread rapidly on windy days. Timber fires spread slowly to moderately fast. The average fire is of moderate intensity although heavy concentrations of fuel, especially draped fuel, may burn hot. Short-distance spotting may occur, but is not persistent. Fires are not likely to become serious and control is relatively easy.

Low
Fuels do not ignite readily from small firebrands although a more intense heat source, such as lightning, may start fires in duff or punky wood. Fires in open cured grasslands may burn freely a few hours after rain, but woods fires spread slowly by creeping or smoldering, and burn in irregular fingers. There is little danger of spotting.
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Old 07-22-2007, 07:55 AM   #4 (permalink)
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smokey the bear says "let them back in" nice to see the forest level low we are heading to Cisco Grove on friday but I doubt it will change by then
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Old 07-22-2007, 12:14 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I'm no expert on climate zones, but I could easily see how each district would have very different characteristics, so that High Lakes, Fordyce, and Georgetown could have different (but related) Fire Danger ratings. One side of the Divide should be wetter than the other, right?

This *SHOULD* be based on good science... but I'm not sure where to look to substantiate it, and the Forest Service is not being forthcoming.

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Old 07-22-2007, 04:34 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
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One side of the Divide should be wetter than the other, right? This *SHOULD* be based on good science... but I'm not sure where to look to substantiate it, and the Forest Service is not being forthcoming.
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It's referred to as orographic rain which is frontal based in the California Sierra Nevada. It's the main reason why the Eastern slope is a high desert. If you were to do some digging and cross referencing in the reference area of this article you could probably find something specific to TNF/ENF but be forewarned that scientific journals are pretty dry (pun intended) reading.
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Old 07-22-2007, 05:07 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randii View Post
I'm no expert on climate zones, but I could easily see how each district would have very different characteristics, so that High Lakes, Fordyce, and Georgetown could have different (but related) Fire Danger ratings. One side of the Divide should be wetter than the other, right?

This *SHOULD* be based on good science... but I'm not sure where to look to substantiate it, and the Forest Service is not being forthcoming.

Randii
Check this out:



http://www.fs.fed.us/land/wfas/fd_cls_f.gif
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Old 07-22-2007, 08:03 PM   #8 (permalink)
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i just assumed that i can't go up in the eldorado nf and cut firewood but i guess i can. i need to get my wood shed filled on time this year instead of waiting till the snow starts falling like last year
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Old 07-22-2007, 11:39 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Cool link -- thanks, Lance.

I back-tracked from there to: http://www.wfas.us/index.php?option=...ask=view&id=16
No time to check into these data streams right now, tho.

I overlapped this with a Google map of roads and regions... it ain't pretty, but it does show sorta why Tahoe is sweating fire so badly. It also shows that this is an isolated problem area...

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Old 07-23-2007, 07:12 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randii View Post
Cool link -- thanks, Lance.

I back-tracked from there to: http://www.wfas.us/index.php?option=...ask=view&id=16
No time to check into these data streams right now, tho.

I overlapped this with a Google map of roads and regions... it ain't pretty, but it does show sorta why Tahoe is sweating fire so badly. It also shows that this is an isolated problem area...

Randii
Interesting, the map I posted is a dynamic map - it gets updated daily by the FS (notice the date on it today). The map DID NOT look like that yesterday morning! It was much greener.

BUT, at any rate, the fire danger for both ENF and 95% of TNF, according to the above map, is only "High"... Not "Very High" or "Extreme"... Earlier yesterday ENF was all "Moderate" and 50% of TNF was "Moderate" and 50% was "High".

edit - I have seen many times in years past, "High" and "Very High" listed on the signs in ENF.
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Old 07-23-2007, 10:22 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Hmm... dynamic. I wish I would have caught that with my snapshot (not so dynamic).

Agreed that ENF is pretty mild for fire danger, which I'm sure is a relief to the bears, bugs, and bunnies that will be well-protected by the thousands of miles of upcoming Route Designation closures.

I definitely remember much higher fire conditions on those signs, as well.

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Old 07-23-2007, 10:25 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Hmm... dynamic. I wish I would have caught that with my snapshot (not so dynamic).
I know... I kicked myself in the butt for not saving the image.
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Old 07-23-2007, 01:38 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I was in the Plumas NF yesterday and the sign said moderate, I went go an hour away into the Tahoe NF and the sign says extreme, you in the Eldorado's NF and it is moderate. WTF? The NF in the middle has extreme fire dangers and the other two don't? The rain and snow must have missed that particular forest this year.
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Old 07-23-2007, 01:54 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
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I was in the Plumas NF yesterday and the sign said moderate, I went go an hour away into the Tahoe NF and the sign says extreme, you in the Eldorado's NF and it is moderate. WTF? The NF in the middle has extreme fire dangers and the other two don't? The rain and snow must have missed that particular forest this year.
belive it or not... a winter of heavy rain and snow can elevate the fire danger for a given area by increasing the fuel load.

each area or zone will have a diffrent fire danger status dictated by the local conditions.

if you really want to try and understand the topic try googling ' national fire danger rating system " and you will get a decent idea of what goes into assigning an area a daily status.
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Old 07-23-2007, 02:12 PM   #15 (permalink)
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this explains it http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/sew/fire/olm/nfdrs.htm
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Old 07-24-2007, 10:29 AM   #16 (permalink)
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belive it or not... a winter of heavy rain and snow can elevate the fire danger for a given area by increasing the fuel load.

each area or zone will have a diffrent fire danger status dictated by the local conditions.

if you really want to try and understand the topic try googling ' national fire danger rating system " and you will get a decent idea of what goes into assigning an area a daily status.
I would think that TNF determination of fire danger should be in some agreement with the map Lance posted. If you look at it today, the map shows most of TNF as moderate, not extreme.

I wish we could hold TNF accountable for the "science" they use in their decision making.
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Old 07-24-2007, 10:45 AM   #17 (permalink)
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the map Lance posted is a daily forcast map. The USFS also has a weekly, monthly and seasonal forcast. you can't just look at a 24 hour period and expect to see the big picture.
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Old 07-30-2007, 01:11 AM   #18 (permalink)
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I like the pics, mabey they'll be usefull at the F.S. meeting gona print them out and take them w/me. THANX
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Old 07-30-2007, 08:50 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Sign now is posted as "Very High"....
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Old 07-30-2007, 09:05 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Iron Mountain Road sign is listed as "Very High" as of yesterday
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Old 07-30-2007, 08:20 PM   #21 (permalink)
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The relative humidity is taken into account too and that is not the same in any one area and changes constantly. RH's in the single digits and in the teens are considered no good.
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Old 08-02-2007, 11:25 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Strange stuff, Im headed up to Loon Lake tomorrow for some family camping and dirt bike riding. Called up to the camp host and they told us campfires are ok in the camp ground in the fire rings. I guess we will see... my kids may be getting BBQ smores instead.
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Old 08-03-2007, 05:55 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Old 08-03-2007, 09:48 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Please keep it PG at least in this forum.

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