Call for Eagle Lakes Road Peace Conference

[Shinneyboo]

My name is Michael and I am the owner of Shinneyboo Creek at the end of Eagle Lakes Rd and I am the one responsible for plowing the road in the Winter. I now seem to be in a State of War with the 4x4 community and I am calling for a Peace Conference to see if we can come to some sort of truce.

There is a growing belligerence on the part of Fordyce Trail users and I am getting read to go postal if we don't come to some sort of arrangement (I fully support the right to bear arms, by the way). I have been physically threatened twice this year. My guests have been harassed as they tried to get past you to come into their cabins. I don't know exactly what is going, but I suspect that some of you may think that I have something to do with the thefts and vandalism going on at the trail head, but I can assure you that I am as much a victim as the rest of you.

I believe that it is 4x4 users who broke into my storage boxes (FYI the boxes cost more than the crap my sisters are storing in them), threw rocks through my crane truck windows, started the two fires on my property, and generally leave their trail trash all over my property and shit and piss where they please (generally the people fucking on my property don't appear to be 4x4ers. However, reading this forum has made me think that perhaps we have common enemies and some sort of peaceful co-existence might be possible with the majority of you all.

I don't believe that there is any concern on your part (with very few exceptions) about what the impacts of your activities are on my family, my business, and myself, so I am going to ask you to articulate the problems you are having with me as a starting point.

I am willing to hold this Peace Conference online, however I suspect that the nature of email communications will lead to greater animosity, or meet with representatives in person to work this out.

If not, I will work my political connections, my relationships with the Forest Service, CHP, Nevada and Placer Sheriffs to shut this road down and get enforcement of existing regulations implemented and enhanced -- the law is on my side. If you noticed the Sacramento media announcements about not parking on roadways on the summit this past weekend that was a direct result of the coalition I am building to deal with roadway issues from Drum Forebay to Boreal.

I say this only to let you know that I will defend the survival of my business and that you have a lot to lose if you chose to continue this current course of action. Please don't let it go down this path any further. I am willing to be reasonable and listen to your complaints against me and try and articulate my complaints against you and to even work on helping solve our common problems. So lets talk.

[Bebe]

Thank you for coming to the forum. We're glad you are here.

I'm sure there will be a good amount of interest in meeting with you to discuss your concerns.

Bret Preble of Friends of Fordyce, should be in contact with you shortly.

Thank you again for coming to the board.

Bebe

[Tinman]

Hi Michael,

My name is Bret Preble and I am the President of the Friends of Fordyce. We are incoporated and non profit. The FOF is a coalition of trail users and our aim is to maintain the Fordyce trail and educate users to help insure our continued access to the trail. Please keep in mind though that I and the FOF do not represent all of the 4x4 community. It does sound like we, and any sane people, are all on the same page as far as our base goal which is mutual respect for all and responsible use of the forest. I think getting a dialog going is a great idea. It's obvious this has been affecting you for a while from your comments here.

Most of us using the forest and the Fordyce Trail are responsible and respectful. I am not going to say 4x4 users because some of us, speaking for myself at least, do more than drive a rig in the Tahoe National Forest. We all need to work together to make it a safe fun place to be. Limiting access is never the answer. It does not solve any problems. In fact the very people causing the problems will still be there because they have no regard for any laws. Sad to say any dialog will not include them either. They are not usually the kind to particiate in discussions such as this.

I am going to open the discussion by again saying all us responsible users that are respectful want to resolve your concerns. We share a lot of them in fact. Next I am going to be honest and hope you understand where I am coming from when I take exception to the following statements you made in you opening post. I will try not to take them out of context when I quote you.

1. "I now seem to be in a State of War with the 4x4 community..."

I respectfully disagree. You might be in a state of war with individual users but not with us all. You should not lump all people in a 4x4 all together. I for one have never even heard of you and your property before today.

2. "There is a growing belligerence on the part of Fordyce Trail users and I am getting read to go postal if we don't come to some sort of arrangement (I fully support the right to bear arms, by the way)."

This sounds an awful lot like a threat to shoot someone. If this is the kind of person you are I think we can stop right now and get the authorities involved as I have no desire to be a target.

3. We never use the word "fuck" of any of its derivitives in the Fordyce Forum. I used it this once and I will leave it in your post to show what I mean. This is the one and only thread to contain it. If you use it or any other expletive I will edit it out and possible delete the entire post. Thanks for understanding on language. This rule is in a thread on top of the forum by the way that outlines the rules for posting in the Fordyce Forum.

4. "I don't believe that there is any concern on your part .."

Totally untrue. I am extremely concerned about this problem and will do everthing I can to help resolve it.

5. "If not, I will work my political connections, my relationships with the Forest Service, CHP, Nevada and Placer Sheriffs to shut this road down and get enforcement of existing regulations implemented and enhanced -- the law is on my side. If you noticed the Sacramento media announcements about not parking on roadways on the summit this past weekend that was a direct result of the coalition I am building to deal with roadway issues from Drum Forebay to Boreal.

I say this only to let you know that I will defend the survival of my business and that you have a lot to lose if you chose to continue this current course of action. Please don't let it go down this path any further. I am willing to be reasonable and listen to your complaints against me and try and articulate my complaints against you and to even work on helping solve our common problems. So lets talk."

I just quoted the entire last part of your post and I will say this. All us law abiding forest users do not respond well to threats. The people you are reaching here are most likely not the ones you are having the problem with. I am pretty sure I can safely say all of us want your business to be safe and profitable and support your right to your livelyhood. We will do whatever we can do to help you as this can ony help us as well.

Let's get going on solving this problem!

Bret

[Tinman]

If you would like we can talk in person. You can PM me and we can exchange phone numbers and can arrange a time to talk. As you point out sometimes internet conversations can get out of hand.

[randii]

I hope this can be worked out, as well, since I've stayed at Shinneyboo Creek and hope to do so again. I respect the signs and patrons there, as do my friends... one thing, though, I won't patronize an establishment that I know opposes responsible OHV use. I hope you work with OHVers, so that I can return.

I don't think it is appropriate for OHV users to harass or threaten you, nor do I support threats in the other direction, which I see in your words, when you threaten 'going postal' and parenthetically reference your second amendment rights. FWIW, I doubt that it is 4x4 users trashing your property, and suspect that it is area youth. Though these may seem to be the same users to you, stop and consider that responsible OHV users are trying to get to Fordyce, and have little interest in your property -- we're there to go 'wheeling!

Open communications makes sense... thanks for starting the dialogue. Please try to continue it with fewer overt threats. The Friends of Fordyce are good folks who work hard to resolve issues on/near Fordyce -- if you engage in open dialogue with them, it can benefit both your business and responsible motorized access.

Randii

[Shinneyboo]

Bebe, I appreciate the restraint you have shown in replying to my response. I thought of starting this tread with a Rodney King like "Gee, can't we all get alone" and the problem is I have a lot of anger and frustration and I decided to give you a (what I thought was somewhat restrained) version of how I am feeling. I have now gotten it out, and I feel slightly embarrassed and that may be a more humble starting point for going forward.

The problem is that I have been actually physically threatened (I called 911 this weekend). After reading the posts on this forum with pictures of guy in front of signs expressing their love of "guns and alcohol" and the postings on what your plans are to do to the people breaking into your vehicles I felt it was important for this community to know that my customers might be Volvo driving, Obamamaniacs, who eat organic, I am not. I am a guy out in the middle of the woods surrounded each weekend with hundreds of guys in big jeeps who seem to love the combination of alcohol and firearms and don't always respect my property rights, or the rule of law and I am threatened. Both physically and financially because my struggling business is hanging by a tread and the last thing I need is guests having confrontations on the road.

Sometimes cornered threatened people snarl and rant. I apologize and will try to be more civil. I would like to talk in person, however I do feel a public discussion is necessary.

"(We) have little interest in your property" is not quite accurate. Everyday I have 10 or more 4x4 vehicles drive into my front yard. My property goes all the way down and over the river to past the bottom gate and you seem to all want to come back up my property in the Winter and drive over (and ruin) my sled hill. In the Summer you park your rigs all over my property and leave your vehicles parked under no parking private property signs. I understand that this is not all of you, however to me it is a distinction without a difference.

The real tense issue is Winter road blockage. And it is not just jeepers, I turned away 200 cars over New Years weekend who were looking to use the road as a free snowpark. I have no problem with the jeepers who drive in down Eagle Lake Road and take off into the Forest Service (except for the illegal firearm use and irresponsible fires), but that is not what is happening. Because the Forest Service does not provide you with any staging area, Eagle Lakes Road is being used to load rigs, tell trail stories, party, etc. This is a County roadway that the County abandons in the Winter and I have to plow two miles of roadway in the High Sierra to access my home and business. I have a hard enough time keeping up with it and usually during big storms get little sleep for long stretches of time, my equipment always breaks, and then I come around the corner and 10 vehicles are parked all over the road (you guys don't seem to travel in small groups), or I work all night to plow the road only to find that a jeep has been playing in the berm and all the snow has been pushed back into the road and then hardens and creates a sheet of ice that I can't ever get up because I don't own a motor grader.

I ask you to think about what would happen to me if I parked in the middle of the main street in your hometown and got out and worked on my rig. If any of you are from the High Sierras you know the Mountain Winter rules -- if you block the road in Winter and the plow takes out your vehicle, you have to pay to fix the plow. Turnouts are not parking spots. You don't park on roads Nov 1 to May 1 and only flatlanders park in the middle of the road to put on chains or clear their windshield.

The starting point of what I want to express is that Eagle Lakes Road is not your staging area. It is a public roadway that it is illegal to stop or park on at anytime and even parking on the shoulder is illegal in the Winter. That said, there is illegal use that I can live with -- Pulling up to under the power lines (by the rock climbing wall) where the sun helps widen the road. Courtesy to the people who's money has paid for the plowing of the road that you are illegally parked on. Smile and wave at my guests, instead of glaring at them and refusing to move. Limiting the blocking of the road to one lane so people can get in and out without having to ask your permission. Limit the snow that you knock back into the road especially at the trail head because it is a blind curve that gets little sun and can become an ice skating rink. Staying off the road entirely during storms and 24 hours after so that I can plow unimpeded.

If all of this could be accomplished, then I would be very supportive of the jeeping community and would be a lot less stressed out every time I come across you on the road.

[Shinneyboo]

Bret, sorry for calling you Bebe.

[Shinneyboo]

Originally Posted by randii

I hope this can be worked out, as well, since I've stayed at Shinneyboo Creek and hope to do so again. I respect the signs and patrons there, as do my friends... one thing, though, I won't patronize an establishment that I know opposes responsible OHV use. I hope you work with OHVers, so that I can return.

Randii

To understand me better, threats of not patronizing my business will not effect me. Jeepers are not my customers (I have had maybe five in five years). My guests are rich bay area families who don't know how to put on chains by themselves, not outdoor 4x4 campers who weld their axles out on the trail.

[Rock Zombie]

Mike, Brenden from the Zombies will most likely be calling you today, regarding another request and now this. Count us in also, if we can help to spread the word and assist.

RZ

To add: Mike is one hell of a nice guy and we owe him a huge one from a few years back, he saved some of our asses in a blizzard (another story). Please nobody jump to conclusions and be quick to judge. He does have a valid point here. Also, check out his web page, and go patranize his business. The cabins are great. You would not be dissapointed.

[Bebe]

Mike,

Again, thanks for opening up the lines of communication. Sounds like we all need to get together and work this through, it seems simple enough.

I have one question though: Pierce Creek OHV shows a loop, I was under the impression this was a FS Rd., not a private one. If it is Private, then we should only use it with permission, but I think this may be where the confusion lies in respects to your sled hill.

[VERTIGO]

Mike,
I am enthusiastic that you've reached out to all of us. Although Pirate4x4.com is a great tool to inform the uninformed, we still don't have everyone on our side, there will always be a few bad people in the bunch, our job is to seek out those people and educate them. Much like people have done to educate me. There is TONS more we can do to help you out.

I am real hesitant to suspect the thievery, and vandalism is coming from the average 4x4 user, especially from anyone on this website. With all the landuse issues we have encountered, the threats we have endured from the sierra club, and the earth first agenda, we have held several meetings in regards to responsible land use and recreation. I feel that the word has gotten out to most people with whom we all surround ourselves. Clearly, It is some scumbag that has a routine of ripping people off. I camped at the trailhead last year with a few others and when just sitting in the staging area, 30-40 cars/suvs came in, turned around, got stuck in the snow, glared at us and the whole deal. Not one looked like they had anything to do in that area other than something bad!

We want and need your help!

After reading your part in what you want us to do, we now need to think of some ways to be proactive. Can we all think of some more examples that would help you and your business. And can we think of ways to secure our right to the public forest! We want you to be successful! we want your business to survive, and we want you to be profitable.



Do we need more signage in and around the road? maybe telling people what they can do?

We do need sufficient parking, and that would be the staging area, It needs to be cleared and maintained.

Maybe we can set up a fund to help you with the extra costs and time that it takes to maintain that area.
Maybe we can help prepare that area this summer for easier legitimate access?



We Don't want you to fight against us! We want to work with you. In my mind, Fordyce is the best trail out there and we are willing to help secure our future!


Mike Please give us some more examples on projects that we can help you with to better accommodate the parking needs, the user issues, and the vandalism!

We are all on your side.


The RockZombies and the pirate4x4 community are willing to help in any means necessary!



Brenden

[Billy Nitecrawler]

Dear Mike,
We go to Fordyce many times every year and enjoy the trail. Rarely do we venture to the Eagle Lakes side due to theft as you mentioned. But we are concerned with any problems that cause land use issues.

I would be willing to bring a smaller excavator up for a day to make impasses and or clearing for parking. Also dig a few holes to post up some signs. All I ask is that you cover fuel. If this would be of service do not hesitate to contact me.



Bill
Nor Cal Night Crawlers

[tunaman]

i think it's good that you came to the forum with these issues. the major problem is these disrespectful 4x4 users are people that we also have a major problem with. they are called 'yahoos', they get beligerent when you ever approach them pointing out anything they are doing wrong; such as driving off trail, litering, or driving extremely drunk. infact, responsible users get threatned by these same people on the trail.

i for one am a user that regularly goes in through eagle lakes rd. before this post i had never heard of you or your business. i simply get to the staging area, air down and continue into the trail. the 'yahoos' will probably never respect anything so we have a problem that will probably have to involve law enforcement just like the rubicon got to the point where it needed extensive involvement of the el dorado county sheriffs dept. i hope this situation can be resolved, but some of your statements seemed like direct threats and we dont respond well to threats. however, i believe you conveyed your anger as genuine to a real problem and again it's good that you came to the forum first.

[Sillyneck]

Hey Mike,

You obviously remember digging my rockzombie buddies out of the snow a couple years back and you'll likely recall a group of us coming and staying for a bachelor party in May of 07. I had a great time talking with you that whole night and much of the next day. You have a great place there and I can't wait to visit again.

This is definitely the place to get folks on your side to help battle the issues. The community here (based on the locals) has been tuned up to act correctly and attempt to keep open the land we're still allowed access to. The people you're angry with may be reading but they are not active members of this bulletin board. Around New Years 07-08 a few friends and I camped at the Eagle Lakes Trailhead and observed, first hand, a number of shitty individuals trolling for god only knows. People would drive to the staging area in sketchy vehicles, but no crimes would be committed as we were there to thwart any attempts. When we were asleep a number of people still came up the staging area, then left quickly. This happens all hours of the night and I'm sure if they did it in blizzard conditions it has to be much worse during the summer months.

If you want to send me a private message with decent descriptions and names of the individuals who have hastled you..... I'll be glad to do what I can to source them... and then get the situation remedied. This is the right place to reach out... the angle is a little off since most of us are the embassadors of the 4x4 community.

Hopefully we can help you out and I look forward to visiting in the near future!

Sincerely,
Phil Licciardi

[Shinneyboo]

Originally Posted by Bebe

I have one question though: Pierce Creek OHV shows a loop, I was under the impression this was a FS Rd., not a private one. If it is Private, then we should only use it with permission, but I think this may be where the confusion lies in respects to your sled hill.

That map shows my entire 1/4 section parcel. From the red marks on the triangle of land above my parcel, to the blue I-80 on the bottom center of the map -- the lower right quarter of section 14.

However, the Federal Government paid $250 for the perpetual right to a public easement through my property (it is the backwards "S" right through the center of my parcel).

By the way, contrary to what some of you have indicated to me that you think, I am not rich. I am a life-long Truckee boy who bought this land with $60k down, cashed in my retirement account, and racked up $160k in credit card debt to get where I am now -- a break even business and having to be supported by my Dental Hygienist wife.

[Bebe]

So is this the road you are referring to in regards to the sled hill?

I believe the black and green Rd.'s going through your property are public easements?

[Shinneyboo]

Originally Posted by Rock Zombie

Mike is one hell of a nice guy and we owe him a huge one from a few years back, he saved some of our asses in a blizzard (another story). Please nobody jump to conclusions and be quick to judge.

Thanks for vouching for my character. If everyone was like the Rock Zombies, I would be plowing the entrance to the trail head instead of thinking of berming it in.

I misjudged you guys at first too, and you were my lesson to take each guy as an individual and not stereotype Jeepers as one indistinct group.

[Shinneyboo]

Originally Posted by Bebe

So is this the road you are referring to in regards to the sled hill?

I believe the black and green Rd.'s going through your property are public easements?

The black is the easement and the green is the road I built, with collaboration with the Forest Service, out of an old skid road to bypass my lower section of the property and stop non 4x4s from accessing the river because the FS is attempting to limit access to OHV vehicles, since the other three quarter sections of section 14 were bought with green sticker funds.

[Bebe]

So do we tell people not to use the Green Rd. I guess is my point.

[Shinneyboo]

Originally Posted by VERTIGO

We Don't want you to fight against us! We want to work with you. In my mind, Fordyce is the best trail out there and we are willing to help secure our future!


Mike Please give us some more examples on projects that we can help you with to better accommodate the parking needs, the user issues, and the vandalism!

We are all on your side.

The RockZombies and the pirate4x4 community are willing to help in any means necessary!

Brenden

Brenden,

I know you are coming up this weekend so lets plan to get together and talk a bit. I am sure we can come up with ideas to work together. The big thing is that everything needs to be reported, and you need to ask for a copy of the report, so it gets logged. We are in danger of losing law enforcement resources because of budget constraints and the Sheriffs have said that the call volume indicated the Summit is not a problem area (0.6 calls per week).

Some long term staging area solution is part of the answer (budget in every jurisdiction are tight however) and stepped up enforcement (with teeth). I am going to be doing a tour of the Summit with Lt. Petitt, Commander of the Gold Run CHP (he has said open roadways in Winter is his number one issue) to determine where better signage is needed before ticketing and towing is implemented. He now has an overtime officer assigned on weekends just to keeping the side roads from Gold Run to Boreal open on Winter weekends.

I welcome working with the responsible members of the Jeeper community and maybe together we can mitigate the effects of the Yahoos.

[Shinneyboo]

Originally Posted by tunaman

some of your statements seemed like direct threats and we dont respond well to threats.

As I said I do feel threatened physically and financially and I was attempting to encourage dialogue by expressing my full willingness to pursue a path of "Mutually Assured Destruction" if we could not work things out.

I regret now that I came on so strong, because it appears that I am dialoguing with the "good guys" -- but the "bad guys" could ruin things for your entire community (like on the Rubicon) and adversely effect your access.

However, with no malice intended (see I am smiling) I will protect my personal safety and property.

[Shinneyboo]

Originally Posted by Bebe

So do we tell people not to use the Green Rd. I guess is my point.

All of the proposed OHV Road Use options the USFS is considering, recommend closing the green (unofficial easement) and black (recorded easement) to Winter use, so yes in the Winter I would prefer you didn't use the road so that I can use my road for Snowshoeing, XC Skiing and Sledding.

In the Summer, but I am thinking you guys are not the ones I am having problems with. I don't have any problem with quiet, minimal dust, reasonable speed, sticking to the trail and not driving up areas I am trying to revegetate, no parking, no camping, no fire building, travel through my property. It is your legal right. Just remember it is my home and I ask you to be so kind as to show some respect and maybe go the extra mile to communicate support for me to the Yahoos.

I ask that you don't stop when you get to the pavement in front of my green gate. That is not public land and it is the entrance to my business. Continue on to where the county road ends (you can tell because there is a sign "End of County Maintained Road", pull off to the side, air up, tell trail stories, and smile at my nervous guests, who might be inclined to be afraid of you because you drive big trucks and they are prejudiced.

If you are going to go down through the green gate to check out my home, please get out and say "Hi" and don't just do a "drive by" and speed away when I walk up to your vehicles. This is my home after all and think about how you would like me to act if I drove into your driveway to check out your house. Part of my frustration is that people act like I am a crazy homeless man with a dirty squeegee when I come up to see why you are in my driveway. It is my home, it is my right to come up to your vehicle. Just be friendly and a little humble and we will be fine.

[2000TJDude]

I work for a national construction supply company and we actually have a facility that makes signs at our Reno location. If there is anything I can do to help from a signage perspective I would be happy to donate my company discount to help get anything you need from the signage standpoint.

[Bebe]

Originally Posted by Shinneyboo

All of the proposed OHV Road Use options the USFS is considering, recommend closing the green (unofficial easement) and black (recorded easement) to Winter use, so yes in the Winter I would prefer you didn't use the road so that I can use my road for Snowshoeing, XC Skiing and Sledding.

Ok, with that in mind, the DEIS and potential closure of the area, I should tell you that we did write in during the comment period to ask that the area stay open (oops), because we do use it in the winter for snow wheeling.

We were unaware that you had made it into a private sno-park for your guests.

Apparently, because it is on the FS map as a legal OHV recreation area and legal FS trail... we assumed it was open.

[Billy Nitecrawler]

Ya know a annual friends of Fordyce rally held at Shinneyboo would be good for all of us. Huh Bret and Mike?