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Old 02-23-2009, 08:36 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Shinneyboo thread!

I feel the need to voice my opinion regarding the Shinneyboo thread. I think it was wrong to lock it down.
Mr. Shinneyboo was doing a great job of showing his true colors. Every time someone said anything even close to negative or questioning his approach to this problem he would completely fly off the handle. Overreacting seams to be his MO. All of the stories that came from various peoples interactions with him have a common thread. He is rude to anyone in the area of his property ( legally or not ); he makes false accusations, and feels it is his responsibility to inform everyone of their wrong doing. The cops don't seam to think much of him either. FWIW I have never met this guy either. I base my opinions on what I have read here.

It is my opinion that this guy has no interest at all in cooperating with OHV users. He really wants us all to go away. And I think it is dangerous to be all kiss ass'n this guy trying to make nice.

The reality is that he chose a poor place to have his business. It's no one's fault but his own. He would be better off with that location catering to the inexperienced OHV crowd. Something like the Jeep tours in Moab Ut or Sedona Az. Or doing ATV tours on the lesser trails in the area.

He has a great habit of mishandling these "confrontations". ( I say confrontations but I don't think the word truly fits, until he gets involved of course).

If you were the owner of the local Wal-Mart and people were steeling your shopping carts or illegally parking in your parking lot what would you do? Go out their everyday and yell at them, get on the internet and threaten them? Or would you consider it an unfortunate part of business and post the proper signs, install surveillance cameras, hire security, lock up your carts, or install those annoying cart wheel lock/up things? And when something did go wrong or someone illegally parked, or a cart was stolen do you think you would have the cars towed or call the cops to catch the thieves or maybe your security guard would catch them in the act? The fact is that business deal with this type of thing every day.

Just because some people are misusing the ELR dose not excuse Mr. Shinneyboo from the same rules that the rest of society lives up to every day. By his own admission the cops are not getting called very often, but he makes it sound like this is a daily problem if not more often.

I think it is great that even when we are being accused of wrong doing, there are some cooler heads that speak up and take a reserved approach to resolving an issue. But that is also what pisses me off. Here we are just trying to get along, offering free signs and free labor but that isn't good enough for this guy. He wants us to support him in closing OHV access that was setup by our own OHV funds.

So that is all I will say at this time. Again I think the thread was going in the same direction that most conversations Mr. Shinneyboo is involved in go. And it is by his own doing.

The thread should have stayed open!
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Old 02-23-2009, 09:56 PM   #2 (permalink)
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After reading your post I am still unable to see what was to be gained by keeping the thread open.
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Old 02-23-2009, 10:32 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I feel the world is not a perfect place and none of us who are here are perfect either. The thing that surprises me is that none of you say you knew of the existence of Mikes place until now. I found out a few years ago when I came up the road and met him. He was cordial and kind and didn’t throw any punches, so I have had a different experience then those shared by 2-5 people in the thread.

The question that comes into my mind first is TONE. The tone in which some of the posts had was a red flag in my eyes. I would have felt cornered and singled out if I had been confronted in the same way. The tone that you (PEPE) and a few other people used was condescending and IMO confrontational. Understand I am not talking about Mike at this point. These folks I respected were sort of the minor and new leaders of the direction I have been running in for a while, they no longer hold my respect and therefore I will look to the major leaders for my marching orders from here on out. The world is a place of perspective and unfortunately my perspective has changed.

The internet is an evil place and email is the same, it is very important to sensor your emotion and true feelings out of comments and reactions until you have a level head. I am a great example of this over the years. I am not perfect but I am learning. And I am sure along the way I have managed to lose lots of respect and credibility I may have had.

All I know for sure is when pushed into a corner the first reaction is to defend yourself. IMHO some of you pushed Mike into that corner and you got what came naturally. By the same token he pushed back and cornered some of you and you came out in the same manner. I am not questioning any of your meetings or how they happened except for one, after all I wasn’t there. The one I question is one which I know didn’t go the way it was portrayed as the guy involved who I know, is a pathological liar.

Mike is IMO new to the whole BB thing let alone the cruel and unforgiving nature of PBB. He started out with this thread and almost immediately was sacked by the PBB no holds barred culture. I am not saying he was right but I will say that when I first came here it was an eye opener and a revelation on how much could go wrong so quick. Needless to say I see someone cornered and quickly trying to perform massive damage control. It may not have gone well but I must say he stuck longer then I would have with the tone of things and the way it all went down. Give him credit he didn’t pull any of my beginner tricks such as deleting posts. He just kept at it.

I don’t know if there are any viable solutions to the problem but in my eyes there is one that I think is fair and I am willing to share it even though I will be punched and ridiculed for it from here to high heaven. I think we should make an agreement in good faith like we did over on the Rubicon till the ski Nazis screwed us. Yeah I know we got screwed on that but this is a different situation with an individual rather than a group of green granola eaters who were out to stab us in the back before we even agreed. I think we should give him the section of road closest to his cabins for his sleds and shoes and such. And use the one further for access in the winter. I also think that if we want to enter at the first entrance i.e. Signal peak we should make a point to air down back by the freeway if possible, who knows if we agree to work with him maybe he will work with us by plowing an area for tow rigs or something. Good faith is sometimes the beginning of great things or it can lead to a screwing, you never know till you try it which is a calculated risk. I believe I have been up and down both of the roads crossing his property at one time or the other and neither provide any different challenge and both lead to the same place. Why not give a little and see if we get a little?

Anyway that is what I have to say, flame away because I just don’t care how yall feel about what I had to say. It is what I felt and what I was thinking so damned be me for trying to put one foot forward and do the hokey pokey.

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Old 02-23-2009, 10:51 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I forgot to add the part about Mikes Tone. It was wrong in many instances but he is new here. And I am going to go out on a limb and say he is new to this kind of communication and interaction.

On the other hand he is reaching out to us and trying to make something happen that could benefit all parties involved and also by taking a huge risk. I personally think that is plenty of excuse for his behavior and I also think that may be reason enough to give him some sort of break.

I am also sure that this take on my part will receive large amounts of ridicule for me but I just don't care, yall will deal with me how you see fit.
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Old 02-23-2009, 10:56 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I am also thinking that what would be reasonable is if via a cooperative agreement, we voluntarily allow him to use one of those roads (of his choosing of course) during the winter for his customers. And assist in education and enforcement. (Much like we do now with the Loon Lake access to the Rubicon in the winter for Monte and his crew)
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Old 02-24-2009, 09:33 AM   #6 (permalink)
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After reading your post I am still unable to see what was to be gained by keeping the thread open.



In short he was digging his own grave, and Mr. Shinneyboo was doing a great job of showing his true colors. The man is not really looking for a compromise with us! Had you left it open I believe he would of continued to follow the same pattern and show what he really wants.
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Old 02-24-2009, 09:57 AM   #7 (permalink)
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In short he was digging his own grave, and Mr. Shinneyboo was doing a great job of showing his true colors. The man is not really looking for a compromise with us! Had you left it open I believe he would of continued to follow the same pattern and show what he really wants.

No one has been banned and can start a new threatů like you did. I made the decision to close that thread because it was not productive to solving the problem. In fact it had become counter productive. Do you think you can help the situation?
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Old 02-24-2009, 10:06 AM   #8 (permalink)
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I only have one suggestion -

Get all the parties of interest together for a sit down, to include Mike, representative(s) from the OHV community, Nevada County Sheriff, CHP and USFS. Let's get all the cards on the table, what's legal, what's not and then come up with a plan that will make everyone happy.

I understand Mike's frustration, and it really isn't so much with us, but we are much more reachable via forums like this. I believe with our help, proper signage and enforcement, he would eventually get to a point where he would be satisified.

I don't believe him trying to 'enforce' anything on his own is the correct approach. People respect someone in a uniform much more than some private citizen schooling them on what's legal and what's not.

That being said, and not really knowing what the next step is, perhaps someone with a bit more experience can chime in and and offer up some suggestions/advice.

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Old 02-24-2009, 10:10 AM   #9 (permalink)
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No one has been banned and can start a new threatů like you did. I made the decision to close that thread because it was not productive to solving the problem. In fact it had become counter productive. Do you think you can help the situation?



I don't think that it is my responsibility to resolve the situation, hence my comparison to Wal Mart. And for that matter the system has worked in this case. OHV funds were used to guarantee our access.

I am for getting along and with others as much as the next guy but getting along is exactly what this guy isn't looking for. He wants us gone!




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If you were the owner of the local Wal-Mart and people were steeling your shopping carts or illegally parking in your parking lot what would you do? Go out their everyday and yell at them, get on the internet and threaten them? Or would you consider it an unfortunate part of business and post the proper signs, install surveillance cameras, hire security, lock up your carts, or install those annoying cart wheel lock/up things? And when something did go wrong or someone illegally parked, or a cart was stolen do you think you would have the cars towed or call the cops to catch the thieves or maybe your security guard would catch them in the act? The fact is that business deal with this type of thing every day. :
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Old 02-24-2009, 10:58 AM   #10 (permalink)
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I'm not sure why people need to be an ass online. I some people are being asses on PBB for the sake of being asses. Most of us understand skinnys frustration even if we don't fully agree with him. Most of us will bend over backward to help him.
I don't think the OHV community has anything to do with snow parks and sledders. But if you post where you don't want people to park, or clearly mark parking areas I'm sure the OHV community will help you.

That being said don't be stupid on the internet. I was laughing at this with a friend of mine who is a prosecutor. California does not have a castle law. You can't just shoot someone for trespassing. You have to be threatened with life threatening violence. Cali is so damn liberal that they better have shot you first or you will likely lose the self defense argument. What skinny posted would be considered premeditation by a prosecutor in Cali. If he hits a car plowing, a good civil attorney would argue he was reckless driven by anger and would have a good shot a winning a civil suit. Just a reminder don't be stupid on the internet it never goes away.
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Old 02-24-2009, 12:22 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Old 02-24-2009, 12:34 PM   #12 (permalink)
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I think it was great that Shinneyboo came out and tried to make something happen. I commend him for that. So much for being productive on that thread though. It did take some ass hats to be dicks and thus leading to a non productive thread. This is an important subject in working together to keep our trails open. A lot of people should see what's going on here. I think it will have to be resolved legally to actually make something happen. A scenario that I can invision happening would be that he gets access only to his area. A gate can be put up if he choses, but this would be in cooperation with the FS, and the FS would have to create an alternate route into the OHV area. Although this is a huge hassle, it could be a solution. It was done once up near the entrance to the High Lakes OHV area on the north side, but this was only a temporary fix, until the owners allowed entrance through the easement again. Until something can happen, we need to encourage each other to be respectful of his private property, and treat him with respect. Forget about what has happened in the past. Learn from what does not work, and lets be part of the solution and quit creating more problems.
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Old 02-24-2009, 01:49 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Uhmm its a couple of months old, but getting into an online flame war was really stupid thing to do on his part. I really don't think there is that much of an issue, but I don't live there so I don't know. I do know that now anyone who does a google search is going to know the owner thinks there are issues.

Current climate skinnyboo could have easily cost himself hundreds of thousands of dollars. I can just see a potential buyer saying I don't want to be threatend by those damn 4wheels or burned by the ELF in the area.

Damn stupid people make the world go round

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Old 02-24-2009, 02:22 PM   #14 (permalink)
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I think we now have a motive for his wanting to close access through his property.
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Old 02-24-2009, 03:25 PM   #15 (permalink)
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I think we now have a motive for his wanting to close access through his property.

I'm sure he has wanted it closed for 10 years, its hard to deal with the public at large driving through your place 24/7. He not selling for the money as the market is low, most likely because his wife has seen how it has changed him over the last few years.
It's more like controlling speeders on hwy 80, then patrolling the Wal-mart parking lot.
The CHP can hand out a 1,000 tickets and next week new speeders/sleders/nission campers/ ATV riders/ 4x4 will be driving that section of the road.

Bebe and Randi posted great ideas.
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Old 02-24-2009, 03:30 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Ya know, when all this started I held back from posting that in the other thread. I didn't want to be accused of starting anything else.

I think there are SEVERAL reasons why he came here to "make peace" and the straw was probably his physical encounter with a couple of other board members.

I'm not sure who it was that suggested it, but I like the idea of combining a cabin retreat/OHV experience. Pierce OHV is at his backdoor and Fordyce is just a little past that. Arranging ATV tours or Jeep tours of the area could be a real financial benefit to the current or future owner of Shinneyboo. It works on the 'con, mutual respect and cooperation goes a long way.
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Old 02-24-2009, 04:25 PM   #17 (permalink)
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So the idea of locking the other thread was to stop the endless accusations and start some true problem solving. Any good ideas from the other thread should be cut and pasted here.

The fact of the matter is that no matter who owns the business, the same issues will likely exist. Unless a new owner simply buys it for personal use.

OHVers can see that we have some responsibilities for use of Eagle Lakes Road and Mike can see that his ownership only goes so far. Both sides can see that neither will just roll over and some sort of working arrangement must be reached. That's what this thread is all about.
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Old 02-24-2009, 10:13 PM   #18 (permalink)
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The Tahoe DEIS is not finalized and it is disputes like this that could sway the winter closure of this trail instead of keeping it open.
What are you people thinking?
You would rather loose it all rather than compromise a little.
Yes, the comment period is closed but the decision is not on paper yet and all eyes and ears are still open to any problem that arise.
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Old 02-24-2009, 10:41 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I took the time to re read the original thread and this is what I found. There were 56 offers of support. There were 22 posts by Mr Shinneyboo that were negative and not in the spirit of working towards a solution. And there were 8 posts that could be or were probably perceived as negative by Mr Shinneyboo. Now I find it interesting when you look at what these 8 negative posts really are.

Quotes in yellow

Post 64 reads
well I see the guys point and all, it's a fustrating issue.
I had taken my son new years weekend up to Fordyce and witnessed this guy blocking the road in a white truck with plow, screaming at people who had turned up the road looking for a place to play with there children.
I was a few cars back and could hear him screaming in the face of a father and car load of kids calling them deadbeats and freeloaders. The father turned around and stoped next to me and said forget going that way, he said if he didn't have his family with him he would have dropped that dude. so at that point I told my son we had to go somewhere else this guy is about to snap.. I felt really bad for both partys. I pray you don't scream in the face of someone more pissed off then you life is short my friend. Have you ever thought of making a secure staging area on your land for the 4X4's and charge a fee? I have checked out your place and would love to stay there and hit the trails in the day. Maybe cater to the 4x4 people since the staging area for fordyce in tough to get a trailer into.. Maybe offer your guest a 4x4 trip package like they do in tahoe..
Maybe a little store with supplys Oil duct tape u joints???? Good luck..


So this is the now famous "Dropping" incident. Notice that the person making the post wasn't threatening anyone but simply recounting what some unknown person said. Furthermore the OP was even offering support.


Post 89 reads
You know...we were there in December...snow hit. It was actually too much for the quads to handle.

We tried to get to Pierce OHV the back way....and before Shineyboo...we ran into the infamous White truck stuck in the snow. We stayed there for 10 minutes...hoping the owner was around. We were willing to help get out the truck. It was clear a lot of shoveling had gone on.

Anyway...we decide to forge on...and run into the guy in the tractor...apparently coming for the truck. We stopped and offered to help....and he has totally rude. All we got was yelled at for riding up and down a snow covered road.

Let's face it....it's the granola crowd. Pretending to be in the "woods" (100 yards from I80). We are all stereotypically mean, rude, drive over everything.

God forbid.....he takes 10 seconds to evaluate people on a person by person basis.

And he could INCREASE business, if he used a portion of 160 acres to cater to us...instead of threats of violence. It's a resort NEXT TO AN OHV RIDING AREA!! It was an OHV area before it was bought. Do any homework???

This is the same mentality of the people who buy a house in the path of an airport...then bitch about the noise.



This is simply a story of a recent encounter with Mr Shinneyboo (edit)by Ken Hower Mr ATV Obsession, who by the way I believe entirely. This, in my opinion, was not posted to take a jab at Mr Shinneyboo but more to give everyone a perspective as to what is really going on up there. And again the OP offers his help and support to Mr Shinneyboo.

Post #92, 93, 132, 145, & 152 are really just conformations of what happened that day. Not really negative but definitely relative only to Post #89.


Last but not least
Post # 56 read
Originally Posted by madjeeper622 View Post
This guy is a nut case! About a month ago he called the CHP on a bunch of us and told the cop that I said i was going to kick his A@@s. He lied! When the CHP showed up and talked to us he told me that the guy is a PITA and to try to get where we are heading to ASAP. He told me the only thing we were doing wrong was IF we block the road. We were not! I didn't even take the time to air down because of this nut so all i did is get stuck . He thinks he owns the road. And he is a unreasonable person! I will avoid this guy as much as i can. I am a law abiding citizen, never been in any kind of trouble and i have no intention of letting this guy tell me when i can run this trail! He pointed out in his starting post that he "(I fully support the right to bear arms, by the way)" I take as a warning and a THREAT! Dont stop or park on Eagle Lakes Road and he can go himself!


This is obviously negative in nature but isnt it interesting how the OP's story relates to the other personal recounts. The glove definitely fits.



So there are stories of 3 separate incidents that essentially come to the same conclusion. All three stories are believable and only one could be construed as negative. But is that one person really doing anything different than what Mr Shinneyboo keeps doing? He is venting his frustration after his confrontation with Mr Shinneyboo. And isnt that exactly what almost everyone on here is defending Mr Shinneyboo for doing! Everyone keep saying "I'd be pissed if I was in Shinneyboo's shoes too" and simular things. Well I would be pissed if I was madjeeper622!

So I disagree that the original thread was going any where bad unless your Mr Shinneyboo. And with 1 negative post, really it wasn't going that bad! The overwhelming majority was supportive and positive.
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Old 02-25-2009, 02:13 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Well I hate to add fuel to a fire but I guess I had a run in with him a few years ago as well. Sounds a lot like what some other people have said here. We drove into the staging area for Fordyce to play in the snow for a while. Just snow sled and play around. The "white truck" showed up and asked us to give him money since he plowed the road and asked us to leave if we didn't telling us it wasn't a "snow park". I was a little confused seeing how it was the campground staging area for Fordyce and Singal peak and I just kind of said no that OK and we left because I didn't want any trouble. He was very rude about it and I just blew it off at the time becuase it wasn't that big of deal and we found somewhere else to play. Now that he's threating to try to close OHV trails it's a little bigger deal to me.
If he really wanted to solve anything he wouldn't be making threats to close land. I hope he is just not expressing himself well on this forum and it isn't the case that he really just wants OHVs gone.
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Old 02-25-2009, 08:02 AM   #21 (permalink)
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First, it seems like all the problems need to be identified, then we can work on solutions.

1) Shinneyboo/Mike has trouble trying to keep the ELR clear during snow storms. It seems his equipment is lacking.

Solutions: Mike needs a bigger tractor or grader that can handle the large snow banks. OR, maybe he/we can convince the county to use their equipment to clear the county's portion of the road for public access to Fordyce and snow play so that he only has to worry about the part that is on his property, or maybe the part from the Fordyce turnoff down to his property.



2) People parking/blocking/playing on ELR when Shinneyboo is trying to clear the road and/or when he or his visitors are trying to get in or out of Shinneyboo Cabins.

Solutions: Lots of signage (even temporary seasonal signs stuck in the snow banks) and education.
Plowing the road wider so that even if people do park where they aren't supposed to, they aren't completely blocking the road.
Larger plowed parking areas near I-80 and maybe additionally at the Fordyce trailhead/staging area may help as well.



3) Vandalism and tresspassing on the Shinneyboo property (mainly in the non-snow seasons?).

Solutions: More signage and education as to what areas are public/national forest and what all is private, and better signage and education as to which roads and trails are legal for public use.



4) Vandalism is also prevalent on ELR and at the Fordyce staging area (may or may not be related to the vandalism at Shinneyboo).

Solutions: More patrols, filing more reports, signage to tell people who to call to file reports.



5) Illegal trespassing/snow play on the Shinneyboo property in the winter.
Solutions: More signage/education.



6) I'm sure I missed a few? Please add more problems and possible solutions...

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Old 02-25-2009, 03:26 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Honestly I am not trying to "stir it up" or intentionally piss any of you guys off. But I really am interested in hearing Tinman's & jethrodeg's response to my previous post.



I the reason I started this thread was because I disagreed with the closing of the other thread. It had been said that the reason it was closed was because of all of the negative post. My previous post addresses that. Thats why I am interested in hearing what your reaction is.


Also I want it to be said that although I havent seen it first hand I totally believe what a cluster f**k it probably is on ELR on a snow weekend. And I to understand what that must feel like to Mr Shinneyboo given his circumstances. But that in no way excuses the way he has acted towards us in general. Nor does it change my opinion of why he is really here. It seams that truly his main problem is the people looking for a quick and easy place to play in the snow for the day and their blocking of ELR. So as I have eluded to before fix that problem, it really has very little to do with us.




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Old 02-25-2009, 05:59 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Honestly I am not trying to "stir it up" or intentionally piss any of you guys off. But I really am interested in hearing Tinman's & jethrodeg's response to my previous post.



I the reason I started this thread was because I disagreed with the closing of the other thread. It had been said that the reason it was closed was because of all of the negative post. My previous post addresses that. Thats why I am interested in hearing what your reaction is.


Also I want it to be said that although I havent seen it first hand I totally believe what a cluster f**k it probably is on ELR on a snow weekend. And I to understand what that must feel like to Mr Shinneyboo given his circumstances. But that in no way excuses the way he has acted towards us in general. Nor does it change my opinion of why he is really here. It seams that truly his main problem is the people looking for a quick and easy place to play in the snow for the day and their blocking of ELR. So as I have eluded to before fix that problem, it really has very little to do with us.




Peace and love, Peace and love!

Man, I hate being called out.

Here's what Jeff posted as a reason for closing the thread:

"While I understand people are passionate about land use and private property it seems we are getting nowhere. We have taken a few steps forward and now have taken a few backward. I would suggest leaving this thread and start a new one if you truly want to post constructive comments."

And:

"Round and round we go. Locked

Start a new thread if you truly want to post constructive comments."



I posted:


"I talked to Jeff earlier today and fully agree with his call to lock this thread. It's just going 'round and 'round. The end result seems to be that Michael has certain rights and so does the general public. Hopefully we can agree on a way to come to a consensus on the situation without involving courts or law enforcement.

As Jeff said, if someone wants to start a thread with some constructive conversation or scheduling a face to face BBQ/get together/problem solving event that would be great. I think the online conversation has pretty much been exhausted but if a thread starts with some good coming out of it that would be great too."


I don't see where the "negative posts" reason is. THe thread was locked because it was getting no where. Many times a thread becomes stagnant and degenerates into what we had in the other thread. In that case we lock it and call for a fresh start. The call was made for constructive posts and a thread that might help create a solution. We seem to know that Mike has some issues. So do some OHVers. Mike has said a few good things and so have the OHVers. This is not going to go away simply by slamming Mike however much he may or may not deserve it. If that looks like the moderators of this forum, in some viewers perception, are biased toward him well there's nothing we can do about it.

The fact of the matter is that these trail specific forums have a higher standard than other forums on the PB. They are in many ways much more important because they relate directly to problems on the trails and issues of access to those trails. I personally want to see solutions presented instead of continuous bickering. That goes for both sides of the Shinneyboo issue.
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Old 02-25-2009, 06:20 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Man, I hate being called out.



I really wasn't trying to "call you out". I respect your opinion and I really wanted to here it. Thank you.

Maybe my mind is more stuck in the normal Pirate mentality. To me the fact that it was being discussed was the good part. I like it when people are speaking true fully and engaged in a passionate discussion.
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Old 02-25-2009, 06:23 PM   #25 (permalink)
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So as I have eluded to before fix that problem, it really has very little to do with us.
Just to make two other points.

First:

Any question of trespassing and access has everthing to do with US. The OHV community has to aggressivly defend ourselves anytime this question arrises. Constant blame is put on us for all sorts of things. ELR directly affects access to the Fordyce trail and behavior and events there directly affects how the public perceives off roaders. We HAVE to answer questions brought forth about these kinds of comments.

Second:

I am more than willing to work with Mike where our interests are common and where his legal rights are being infringes upon but not where any actions take away any of the legal access we now have.
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