IFS/IRS why so bad off road?

[camo]

Not running a rack would be a poor idea. The rack is one of the huge gains in performance that a ifs has over a sas in the desert.

Fullhydro steering is sketchy at best at desert race speed.

[laproscopic]

Originally Posted by camo

Not running a rack would be a poor idea. The rack is one of the huge gains in performance that a ifs has over a sas in the desert.

Fullhydro steering is sketchy at best at desert race speed.

absolutely. One thing that makes IFS cool is that it allows one to use a rack. cant run the rack on the solid axle.

but the gains to having IFS are still worth it even if you have to use full hydro. IFS with Full hydro is still faster than Solid with full hydro

look at deremos's rig
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...183&highlight=

[BRB]

Originally Posted by laproscopic

And campbell's car is not expensive.

i believe that there is a huge difference on this board on what is considered expensive. 8k for a front end used to be crazy loot. a car like campbells, even just the front end setup, seems kinda expensive to me. definitely can't wait to see all the ifs v2.0 rigs hit the dirt..

[BigWoodyWag]

Originally Posted by laproscopic

absolutely. One thing that makes IFS cool is that it allows one to use a rack. cant run the rack on the solid axle.

but the gains to having IFS are still worth it even if you have to use full hydro. IFS with Full hydro is still faster than Solid with full hydro

look at deremos's rig
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showt...183&highlight=

Looks at TJ Flores LVDC Class1 car..... That is a winning as hell Class1 and no rack.

[camo]

Originally Posted by BigWoodyWag

Looks at TJ Flores LVDC Class1 car..... That is a winning as hell Class1 and no rack.

Link to build thread or detailed construction pics ?

[laproscopic]

and nobody has done a standard saginaw box with IFS. look at all the desert cars doing that. and all the crawlers that are doing it.

[the glassman]

ill say it again as in some other threads on here.....

for some reason the thinking in this "sport" has gone down the same road desert racin did....

THIS SPORT DOESNT HAVE TO BE AS EXPENSIVE AS YALL ARE MAKIN IT

somewhere we have forgotten that there are some cheaper tryed and true methods of doin stuff around here....

the sginaw steerin box for example instead of a stupid unubtainium rack

if u have that coin, so be it......but dont forget.....it can be done for a real world price........
and believe me ....ive seen some 10 and 15 thousand dollar streight axles....

[laproscopic]

amen
good geometry and a strong build goes a long way. But you cant fake HP and there is no such thing as cheap suspension.

They will give a trophy to every child on my kids soccer team this year.

[Pook]

Originally Posted by camo

Link to build thread or detailed construction pics ?

I've looked before and couldn't find any pics.

But sure looks like it gets the job done.

http://youtu.be/1NSg8PZ6Nnw

[camo]

Originally Posted by the glassman

ill say it again as in some other threads on here.....

for some reason the thinking in this "sport" has gone down the same road desert racin did....

THIS SPORT DOESNT HAVE TO BE AS EXPENSIVE AS YALL ARE MAKIN IT

somewhere we have forgotten that there are some cheaper tryed and true methods of doin stuff around here....

the sginaw steerin box for example instead of a stupid unubtainium rack

if u have that coin, so be it......but dont forget.....it can be done for a real world price........
and believe me ....ive seen some 10 and 15 thousand dollar streight axles....

Just because you can't afford it doesn't make it stupid.

There will always be a cheaper way of accomplishing a task, but just because it is cheaper doesn't make it better , like wise being expensive doesn't make it the best.

If the Saginaw box was a better way of steering a go fast desert racer then the majority of racers would still be using them. Back in the day that is what everybody used and guess what , the rack was developed and proved to be a better mousetrap for the task.

Yes you can use a traditional steering box and it will get the job done, but the Howe rack is a superior method of steering a long travel high speed desert racer.

[mosebilt]

Originally Posted by laproscopic

and nobody has done a standard saginaw box with IFS. look at all the desert cars doing that. and all the crawlers that are doing it.

no rack on these..steering box it is.. driving it right now outside!

[Tech Tim]

Originally Posted by the glassman

now TTB is poping up.........how many of the sheeple on here condemed that...untill torchemate stepped up ....now everyone is in love with that idea....

TTB will be a bandwagon for a little while and then slowly die off when IFS really becomes mainstream. Sure it works, but it doesn't work as well as IFS, nor will it ever. TTB has poor travel geometry and it only gets worse as you gain travel; but it can work better at speed than a solid axle car.

With each "NEW" thing, there is a learning curve that this sport needs to go through and as it does, it will become old hat. For anyone who has been in this sport for the last 15 years, we only need to think of the early days of link suspension (those were the beginning of the end days for leaf spring suspension). We've already seen live axle cars go faster than we thought was possible and we'll probably see them go even faster. More TTB cars will come and they will probably win more races too. But due to the superior geometry of a well set-up IFS, IFS will become the dual sport suspension of the future.

The Torchmate car is an absolute work of art in it's construction and once they got the bugs worked out it was no surprise that it is capable of winning. They've got good solid fabrication, a good driver and good team support.

Look at Rick Dermo's old IFS car, it worked well for geometry that was equal length A-arms. Like TTB you can't dial it in for perfect geometry. However, he was a consistent top 5 finisher at the XRRA races and even won one.

[Buckon37s]

Originally Posted by the glassman

ill say it again as in some other threads on here.....

for some reason the thinking in this "sport" has gone down the same road desert racin did....

THIS SPORT DOESNT HAVE TO BE AS EXPENSIVE AS YALL ARE MAKIN IT

somewhere we have forgotten that there are some cheaper tryed and true methods of doin stuff around here....

the sginaw steerin box for example instead of a stupid unubtainium rack

if u have that coin, so be it......but dont forget.....it can be done for a real world price........
and believe me ....ive seen some 10 and 15 thousand dollar streight axles....

You are only right to a point, and then you drop off pretty fast. You could probably build a me too racer for a reasonable price. Podium racers cost bank and there is not all that much you can do about it.

As to the IFS / solid topic. It all depends on what you are looking to do with the truck. Top of the line to top of the line right now, a solid is still a much better rock crawler. IFS is a much better desert racer.

The best have been able to make an IFS do pretty well in the rocks, but not really if you want to be honest. They still struggle and take a lot more momentum to get through. The same is true of solid axles in the desert. They can go pretty fast, but ultimately not as fast as a badass IFS.

Pick your poison. I still want to weekend crawl so I am building a solid axle front. Cost has nothing to do with it (ahembullsh*tahem).

[camo]

^ well said and to the point.

[BigWoodyWag]

Originally Posted by camo

Link to build thread or detailed construction pics ?

those do not exist

Originally Posted by Pook

I've looked before and couldn't find any pics.

But sure looks like it gets the job done.

http://youtu.be/1NSg8PZ6Nnw

Chris great vid, you dont get to wear 1501 if you're the slow guy in BITD, just saying'

[mosebilt]

..leavin tomorrow!..need to update my thread!

[jimmysc13]

Originally Posted by camo

Cost and strength are tied together. You can't have the needed strength with out a very high cost at this point in time.

Let's say I am building a full tube buggy and the cost of an ifs front or a 4 link 60 front.

ifs = $20-25k ?

4 link 60 = $8k ?

I don't know the price of the IF|S stuff but that $8k front axle seems cheap to be doing a fair apple to apple comparison.

you're $25k price is for a top notch no excuses |KOH shannon camble front |IF|S

while you're 4 link 60 is probably just what most trail guys use.

compare apples to apples.

Custom housing, big splined custom chromo shafts, Reid racing Knuckles, Wilwood brakes, custom 3rd, PSC/howe hydro, ARB/spool, links/brackets/joints.

[commandoNate]

Nice buggy. Flexin that bitch in a handicapped spot. I like your style dude.

[Buckon37s]

Originally Posted by jimmysc13

I don't know the price of the IF|S stuff but that $8k front axle seems cheap to be doing a fair apple to apple comparison.

you're $25k price is for a top notch no excuses |KOH shannon camble front |IF|S

while you're 4 link 60 is probably just what most trail guys use.

compare apples to apples.

Custom housing, big splined custom chromo shafts, Reid racing Knuckles, Wilwood brakes, custom 3rd, PSC/howe hydro, ARB/spool, links/brackets/joints.

You can pretty much do that for 8k if you build it yourself but use the "best" components. At least you can build a 9in for that. I don't know about a super14 or whatever else could be used.

[JESSE_at_TLT]

Saginaw-type steering box with an idler-arm, swing set linkage and hydro-assist is the way to go. Not only is it a hell of a lot cheaper, but bump steer can be reduced further than possible with a rack. Mostly talking about bump steer while turning, and how it's possible to design the steering linkage to move with the suspension linkage.

[Tech Tim]

Originally Posted by JESSE_at_TLT

Mostly talking about bump steer while turning, and how it's possible to design the steering linkage to move with the suspension linkage.

Jesse,

To my reckoning, the best way to do that would be to run the swingset arms in the same arc as the spindles, yes?

Any change in frame mounted steering arm to spindle steering arm would cause bump steer. So take a '86-95 Toyota IFS set-up for instance, you would need to move the steering box and the idler back to the same plane as the spindle steering arms, BUT with the drag link and idler arm pointed forward on the same plane as the spindle steer arms and the arms are the same length.

Now it would all travel in the same arc in the same plane throughout the travel with little to no bumpsteer.

What are you thoughts Jesse?

[JESSE_at_TLT]

Yup. You can mount the steering box and/or idler-arms to complement the spindle inclination and make the geometry such that the steering linkage will move with the spindles in a manner that reduces bumpsteer as the suspension cycles while steering. That's the biggest potential advantage as I see it. Additionally, there's the relatively low cost associated with building a steering system that has the potential to be strong/durable and easy-to-service using readily available off-the-shelf parts. But this isn't anything new. Think I first saw or heard about it on an SPD truck? Been a while though, don't remember. Know there was some discussion about this type of steering in a thread on RDC about Camburg's new trophy truck a while ago if you want to dig for some tech on the subject. Think they've ended up using racks in the trucks they've built, but remember asking some questions about how to design/model that type of steering linkage. Remember thinking it would be an interesting design exercise, but haven't had an opportunity to apply it to anything yet.

[JESSE_at_TLT]

Found that thread on RDC that I was looking for. Here's a link.

[Tech Tim]

The Camburg Kinetic thread was the first place I saw it and it made sense, though as you mentioned, they ended up going with a steering rack for simplicity

Both the Kinetic thread and the Roll Center thread had good info on it:

Originally Posted by Outcast

Well for one thing it appears that the idler arms are placed at the same angle as the respective king pin axis for that side. This would help the Inner TRE follow a more similar three dimensional path as the outer TRE, as the tires were turned. Consequently, this would reduce bump steer in turn. The orientation of the arms about their respective axis plays a part here too. Basically, the more similar the movement of each arm, the better the ends of the "links" follow each other. In any case, it's nice to see this level of detail being considered. As always thanks for sharing.

Originally Posted by PBP

Draw up the suspension in 3 different spots, drooped, ride height and full bump. I then draw circles with the tie rod end on the spindle as the center at all three locations. Adjust the length of the radius till they make a nice intersection. That is a good point to put your inner pivot.......

If you have camber gain, there will be a little more work involved.

Originally Posted by Dump

You want to mimic with the steering swing what the spindle (steering arm) is doing.

So an expensive rack can be gotten around low-buck by doing some planning with a steering box and idler arm placement.

[Tech Tim]

Originally Posted by mosebilt

..leavin tomorrow!..need to update my thread!

How did your trip go Mosebilt?