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Old 03-05-2012, 02:45 PM   #26 (permalink)
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from my observations at the hammers there is no "racing" taking place in the rocks. you just got to get through the boulders and not loose too much time due to the guys holding you up in the rocks. the race is always in the desert. if the SA guys dont qualify early, they are at a considerable disadvantage.
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Old 03-05-2012, 05:05 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tech Tim View Post
Will IFS replace all SA cars for the "hard core" rock crawling in the future? Probably not.

Will IFS become the dual-sport suspension on the future? More than likely.
I still think TTB has a lot going for it. Kinda the best of both without a lot of the travel headaches and limiting factors like 'true' IFS. Possibly cheaper to put together as well. Thousands of desert racing trucks cant be wrong
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Old 03-05-2012, 05:32 PM   #28 (permalink)
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The TTB car won the Stampede but was that due to TTB or just JT's bad ass driving that day? Seems to me that engine would limit him being too much faster than a well tuned SA car anyway. Erik Miller had serious cooling issues that race or he could have been in contention for 1st (yes I realize any team on any day can say that and I'm not taking away from JT's win).
That was the first race for the TTF cars, and Rick and Scott knew there was still lots more tuning to be done. Not slighting JT skilz, but the competition was not in top form.
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Old 03-05-2012, 05:44 PM   #29 (permalink)
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That was the first race for the TTF cars, and Rick and Scott knew there was still lots more tuning to be done. Not slighting JT skilz, but the competition was not in top form.
Rick's nuts must be really sore from all the swinging you do on them
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Old 03-05-2012, 06:18 PM   #30 (permalink)
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I still think TTB has a lot going for it. Kinda the best of both without a lot of the travel headaches and limiting factors like 'true' IFS. Possibly cheaper to put together as well. Thousands of desert racing trucks cant be wrong
I'd say TTB has more headaches and durability issues than A-Arm IFS set-ups. Ford engineers saw the light and went away from TTB to an IFS. Not many 4x4 desert racing trucks with TTB out there. Now 2WD with Twin I-Beams...YES! Getting I-Beams to last in a 2WD desert racing truck is a whole lot different than a TTB Racer with 4WD.

The TTB works it just has some limiting factors; drastic changes in contact patch of the tire in the suspension travel, increased side loads on spindle/hubs, and different weight distributions on driver vs. passenger sides of the suspension.
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Old 03-05-2012, 08:13 PM   #31 (permalink)
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That was the first race for the TTF cars, and Rick and Scott knew there was still lots more tuning to be done. Not slighting JT skilz, but the competition was not in top form.
Really? That's funny cause I seem to remember Rick doing very well in his car at the Stampede last year. Meh, it must have been an illusion
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Old 03-05-2012, 08:57 PM   #32 (permalink)
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The UFO moves right along in the rocks. It didn't get much attention because it was never out in front. Not the cars fault.
It was the car's debut. Jeff drove a conservative race and didn't take a lot of chances and was IMO, way too polite about passing. We had two flats and some issues with the e-clips on the t-case coming off. We were also right in the middle of the CT fiasco. Because of the dust on the first lap, I don't think we passed anybody. It's just the way he decided to drive.
We started about 70-80th and finished 13th, ahead of 124 (or something like that) others.
Not bad for Jeff's first race.

Maybe I'm biased, but I bet people would change their tune if they got a shot to drive it. I keep hearing all this talk about how IFSers are rock challenged. Maybe some are, but not this one. I'd be curios to see
how well it would do with Krawler reds. It was my thought that if the car sucked in the rocks, like many said it would, then we would chance running flat prone Krawlers. It just doesn't need them. In fact the car has the old, KRT B compound tires (not the stickies) and grips better than my donkey does with the same tires.

I'm not even going to compare it to S/A in the desert. It's not even a fair comparison. IMO.

I was pushing Jeff to get in a desert race but he has decided to wait. It was an expensive push to get the UFO to it's first race with all the safety gear, spare parts and tech paraphernalia. The fact that he still hasn't paid the cc bill on the red head dry breaks and dump cans that got stolen has made him regroup.
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Old 03-05-2012, 08:59 PM   #33 (permalink)
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TTB should be able to get more turning angle. For the stock or mod classes you can get more travel out of a shock. Since the TTB arm allows you to mount a shock with a leverage ratio in the "stock" position Plus you can more easily run a steering box instead of those ifs racks that cost more than my buggy!

That said... I still think TTB is a quirky and akward POS! don't know if I could ever run it again.
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Old 03-05-2012, 09:15 PM   #34 (permalink)
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TTB should be able to get more turning angle. For the stock or mod classes you can get more travel out of a shock. Since the TTB arm allows you to mount a shock with a leverage ratio in the "stock" position Plus you can more easily run a steering box instead of those ifs racks that cost more than my buggy!
Just gonna throw this out there. Sand bag mod-stock car: Shannon's(now Bill's) IFS car with some Tacoma/Chevy/something IFS frame, with body skins and the rear shocks on the axle.
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Old 03-06-2012, 07:33 AM   #35 (permalink)
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I still think TTB has a lot going for it. Kinda the best of both without a lot of the travel headaches and limiting factors like 'true' IFS. Possibly cheaper to put together as well. Thousands of desert racing trucks cant be wrong

Please give us your thoughts on the travel headaches and limiting factors of A-arm IFS vs TTB?

There may be a lot of TTB style cars in desert racing, but not at the upper levels. TTB cannot run with a properly set-up IFS period.


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I'd say TTB has more headaches and durability issues than A-Arm IFS set-ups. Ford engineers saw the light and went away from TTB to an IFS. Not many 4x4 desert racing trucks with TTB out there. Now 2WD with Twin I-Beams...YES! Getting I-Beams to last in a 2WD desert racing truck is a whole lot different than a TTB Racer with 4WD.

The TTB works it just has some limiting factors; drastic changes in contact patch of the tire in the suspension travel, increased side loads on spindle/hubs, and different weight distributions on driver vs. passenger sides of the suspension.

Fuggy has it right, TTB will not let you control the suspension like an A-arm IFS.



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The UFO moves right along in the rocks. It didn't get much attention because it was never out in front. Not the cars fault.
It was the car's debut. Jeff drove a conservative race and didn't take a lot of chances and was IMO, way too polite about passing. ....snip....
We started about 70-80th and finished 13th, ahead of 124 (or something like that) others.
Not bad for Jeff's first race.

You guys did great JR! For not having any race experience, especially in that car, Jeff drove a great race and to place 13th is just icing.
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Old 03-06-2012, 07:37 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Just gonna throw this out there. Sand bag mod-stock car: Shannon's(now Bill's) IFS car with some Tacoma/Chevy/something IFS frame, with body skins and the rear shocks on the axle.
There's a small dimensional issue with the engine placement...
I do think there is room for an its EMC racer, the rules are relatively kind and the course was good for it this year too.
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Old 03-06-2012, 09:41 AM   #37 (permalink)
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That would totally suck if he backs off racing due to some tweaker thieving fawk sticks.

It also sucks there is no reasonable way to insure this stuff. I hope it all works out for Jeff and for you for that matter. Seems like shitty luck and racing sometimes go hand in hand

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I was pushing Jeff to get in a desert race but he has decided to wait. It was an expensive push to get the UFO to it's first race with all the safety gear, spare parts and tech paraphernalia. The fact that he still hasn't paid the cc bill on the red head dry breaks and dump cans that got stolen has made him regroup.
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Old 03-06-2012, 11:37 AM   #38 (permalink)
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We started about 70-80th and finished 13th, ahead of 124 (or something like that) others.
Not bad for Jeff's first race.
That is a 100% win. At least Jeff did not wad up a car that has a serious future in rock sports. Hopefully he can get things together and get that machine racing.
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Old 03-06-2012, 11:45 AM   #39 (permalink)
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It also sucks there is no reasonable way to insure this stuff. I hope it all works out for Jeff and for you for that matter. Seems like shitty luck and racing sometimes go hand in hand
This isnt the thread for this, but seems there should be some solution. Running and enclosed and keeping everything guarded and under lock and key isnt always feasible....
And pretty much mention "race", "race car" "race equip" and ins. runs or throws you a "f*%^ you" number.
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Old 03-06-2012, 01:08 PM   #40 (permalink)
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I had an IFS Mystique at KoH 3 years ago and it did awesome...much better than the LeBaron i drove this year.
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Old 03-06-2012, 01:57 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Too bad you are not closer I know the guy who tuned for Rick.

And to add to the above thread, While IFS is faster in the big rough stuff for sure I think the gap can be narrowed significantly. It won't happen with the mass cattle call tuning sessions though. It takes hours to get that last 20% out of any car.
Serious question.. Don't know much about this type of suspension but...


How close can the gap get do you think?

I'm just imagining trying to control 1,000lbs of unsprung weight (i don't know the exact weight of the axle), it can't be easy.

Especially versus an IFS rig with what.. Half the unsprung weight...?? (again not sure on the exact weights).


The world i come from (road racing), it's kinda backwards. Lots and lots of guys preferred a SRA, to IRS. They made it work, and work really well. But as of recently, IRS has started to shine.

It wasn't so much that the SRA was "better", just that engineers/setup guys/teams all had years and years of data to work with. It took a lot of time, testing to get the IRS up to, and to surpass the SRA vehicles, but they did it, and now almost all top teams run IRS, when allowed to.
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Old 03-06-2012, 02:17 PM   #42 (permalink)
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All this talk really has me wondering now what changes Shannon will be making to the car, he's had 4 years to learn it's quirks and now he get's to build another one. It's going to be interesting to see everything he learned from the car and apply it to the new one!
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Old 03-06-2012, 02:21 PM   #43 (permalink)
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That's why some smart racers should hire you to come out for the RCQ and tune before the race

I think Erik in his 4 year old car and EZ Rick would say you don't need IFS for KOH. And weren't Glen Helen and Miller Motorsports park also won by SA rigs? The TTB car won the Stampede but was that due to TTB or just JT's bad ass driving that day? Seems to me that engine would limit him being too much faster than a well tuned SA car anyway. Erik Miller had serious cooling issues that race or he could have been in contention for 1st (yes I realize any team on any day can say that and I'm not taking away from JT's win).
JT lucked out and was in front of the traffic jam in the main rock canyon, when EVERYONE got stuck in it. he was racing the second half of the race on his own.

IFS is money, plain and simple. more moving parts to prep and the current selection of parts are made buy dezert racer guys, who like the stuff they sell. when brian kirby is selling his IFS front bulk head for 25k, im guessing pro-am (shannons front end) is closer to 35k. that half of what most have into their cars.
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Old 03-06-2012, 02:55 PM   #44 (permalink)
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It takes hours to get that last 20% out of any car.
20% is HUGE!

What do people spend to get 20% more horsepower???

...and big HP only helps you get going fast, not stay going fast.

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Running and enclosed and keeping everything guarded and under lock and key isnt always feasible.....
Guarded isn't always feasible, but an enclosed under lock and key certainly is.

Not saying that thievery is OK, but look at all the Baja chase trucks. EVERYTHING is lock-able. Even if you're in the pits--or on your way--or in camp where guarding the parts isn't feasible, SECURING them is.

Sad that this discussion has to happen, but I'd rather see ten people add $200 in locks and bolts and lose nothing than a single guy lose $2000 in parts.

Sorry....OT for this IFS topic.
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Old 03-06-2012, 05:53 PM   #45 (permalink)
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IFS is money, plain and simple. more moving parts to prep and the current selection of parts are made buy dezert racer guys, who like the stuff they sell. when brian kirby is selling his IFS front bulk head for 25k, im guessing pro-am (shannons front end) is closer to 35k. that half of what most have into their cars.

However, as with everything, as more people start developing IFS parts, the prices will be dropping. Once we have Scherer's car dialed in, we'll be able to offer a suspension similar to his around the $15K mark and it will only get better. We should be able to get a kit for under $10K depending on pieces chosen.

The big expensive parts are:
Series 30 CVs - RCV is working on them and are trying to do it less than the others on the market.

HD steering rack- If PSC builds a rack like they are talking, then no more $5K racks.....

Some of the parts shouldn't be as expensive as they are, but the big name companies that offer them are banking it and will for as long as they can.


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Sad that this discussion has to happen, but I'd rather see ten people add $200 in locks and bolts and lose nothing than a single guy lose $2000 in parts.

Sorry....OT for this IFS topic.

Don't be sorry for saying it Chris, that is good advice. KOH is getting so big it is attracting a lot of slime balls.

I knew the family atmosphere was over last year at the big after-race raffle. I caught some guy grabbing raffle stuff off the table; right in front of the crowd and the camera. I should've called him out over the loud speaker and let the crowd go at him, but I was feeling too nice.
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Old 03-06-2012, 07:06 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Serious question.. Don't know much about this type of suspension but...


How close can the gap get do you think?

I'm just imagining trying to control 1,000lbs of unsprung weight (i don't know the exact weight of the axle), it can't be easy.

Especially versus an IFS rig with what.. Half the unsprung weight...?? (again not sure on the exact weights).

I depends on the driver but would guess over a 100 miles all other being equal, the IFS driver better not have a flat. IT will be interesting to compare some splits if we ever get them from Hammer King.

Now the SA will transmit a lot more shock to the driver so over a long race the gap will increase as fatigue sets in. I have ridden in the UFO, and Dave Cole's car as well as several IFS desert rigs, they are faster but mostly they are more comfortable at a race finishing 80%. Consistency is what wins not fastest between crashes.

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Old 03-07-2012, 07:37 AM   #47 (permalink)
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I don't think the price gap is quite as big as most think, the comparable solid axles are not from the junkyard, and when you can spend 10k on an axle, 2k on steering and still have to do links, shocks, bumps, swaybar, power steering pump relocation, etc, the price of IFS isn't so bad.
In fact, I kind of like the fact that that a lot of the major components can be easily fabricated, as long as you know the dimensions.
At KOH, there's still a lot of room for a guy with a lot of time in any car to have a good day.
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Old 03-07-2012, 11:26 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Consistency is what wins not fastest between crashes.

Wayne
Completely understand and agree with this.

Every time i see a "such and such won this race, and he has SA so its faster". My mind immediately goes into "well what are the other factors that went into the finishing results of the this race."
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Old 03-07-2012, 12:23 PM   #49 (permalink)
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However, as with everything, as more people start developing IFS parts, the prices will be dropping. Once we have Scherer's car dialed in, we'll be able to offer a suspension similar to his around the $15K mark and it will only get better. We should be able to get a kit for under $10K depending on pieces chosen.
agreed, IFS is following the same trend fabbed housing did. elusive and expensive to start, now there's a multitude to choose from. the front bulkhead is only the beginning of the IFS puzzle though. im curious to see where it goes, not on the band wagon just yet.
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Old 03-08-2012, 09:36 AM   #50 (permalink)
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As shared above, i think the ifs "builder Kit" can be "reasonably" priced. But, unlike Solid axle parts, the IFS parts require more engineering and a stronger commitment to fabrication detail. Right now, a large part of the price is covering this detailed engineering and fabrication. Once the parts are dialed in their production can be automated. Then the masses can afford them.

But, as shared above, we dont have a cheap rack and the cvs are not cheap. 935 cvs for the inners are 500$ each x 2 (series 30 are 750$ plus). Must have series 30 cvs or rcv d60 cvs for the outers. those approach $2000 for the pair. so just the rack and the cvs are going to cost $3500 + 2000 + 1000= $6500. 9" 3rd is $3500 w arb. 9" center is 1500-$2000 with drive plates and bearings.

And then still need outer assemblies (hubs, uprights, bearings). And you need to pay someone to do the work.

A $15000 front ifs will be hard to obtain.
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