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Old 07-12-2012, 12:42 PM   #176 (permalink)
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I hope Wayne sells a ton of springs and ups attendance at his tuning days for all his time in this thread
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Old 07-12-2012, 12:47 PM   #177 (permalink)
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Do you really thing one setup is going to work when your adding 600lbs to the rear of your rig? That's a ton weight to be adding.
Welcome to camping weekends

On a typical Rubicon weekend, I have two 60+ qt coolers, chairs, a grill, sleeping bags, a tent, clothes, a pack n play, and fishing gear either on my roof, or hanging off the back of the buggy. Maybe not 600lbs, but I'd say at least 400 more than normal.
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Old 07-12-2012, 12:48 PM   #178 (permalink)
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Do you really thing one setup is going to work when your adding 600lbs to the rear of your rig? That's a ton weight to be adding.
I can't believe I am the only one that will speak up on actual spring choice besides Wayne. Oh well...

This is again why IMO you can't apply the exact same spring choice strategy to every customer. An Ultra 4 car should be sprung differently than a daily driven TJ/CJ/YJ etc. that is going to be loaded up with a metric shit ton of gear and driven over the rubicon once a year. Many of these Jeeps are running 4-5" of up-travel. They would be sitting on the bump stops pulling out of the garage when loaded up with Wayne's spring strategy.

When it comes to go-fast and Ultra 4- Wayne and I are on the same page.
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Old 07-12-2012, 01:10 PM   #179 (permalink)
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Add 600 pounds, retune for that condition. Take it off, go back to previous tune. Or split the difference and deal with that it won't be ideal anywhere. That's the life of a jack of all trades, you can tune to the nth for one thing and really kick ass at it (and probably suck at a lot of other stuff), or you can tune to the compromise and have a compromise at everything.

Personally, I'd tune for the go-fast condition, and just deal with the suck on the go-camping setup; I don't race to campsites, I just poke along and enjoy the scenery away from the city where my cell phone doesn't work, so the car working well at 60mph is irrelevant at 4mph.
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Old 07-12-2012, 01:32 PM   #180 (permalink)
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Its no different than having air shocks. My old sami ran 200# in the rear normally for Rubicon and such I had to run up to 350 psi. Not really any harder to add nitrogen as it is to add preload. Just remember where you started.
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Old 07-12-2012, 01:40 PM   #181 (permalink)
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If you are running 100/150 on TJ with a combined spring rate of 60#s and you add 600# of crap on the rear. Let's just say you added 300# corner weight. You just compressed your shock 5". Are you going to adjust the collar down and add 5" of pre-load and run it? Is that what you are suggesting?
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Old 07-12-2012, 01:48 PM   #182 (permalink)
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If you are running 100/150 on TJ with a combined spring rate of 60#s and you add 600# of crap on the rear. Let's just say you added 300# corner weight. You just compressed your shock 5". Are you going to adjust the collar down and add 5" of pre-load and run it? Is that what you are suggesting?
When I was running 100/150 on the back of the buggy, thats what I did. Didn't have to go own 5 inches, but probably 3. Then on the way off the trail, I loosened then up, cause there were 100 less beers in the coolers, and a lot less ice, water, food, etc.

But I agree, if I had a street driven TJ, thats not what I would want to do.
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Old 07-13-2012, 01:42 PM   #183 (permalink)
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For me, I will be doing more camping/hauling 600 extra lbs then I will be hauling ass through the desert so I don't really want to have to set my shocks up with 6 inches of preload. I'd prefer to set them up and then when I go light for the dez I can back off the top adjuster nut to lower my height. So for me, it seems to make sense to use shorter upper springs and let my triple rates take up some of the last few inches on extension. I do understand what is generally being suggested however.....
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Old 07-13-2012, 02:00 PM   #184 (permalink)
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This is just an awesome thread. No tech to add, but i'm suscribed. This has helped out a ton tuning my coilovers on the JK. I have been working on tuning for the past two months almost every weekend, but now with this thread I should be done in another week or so. This has been very helpful and very interesting information!

I apprecaite the time that everyone is putting into this.
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Old 07-13-2012, 02:25 PM   #185 (permalink)
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For me, I will be doing more camping/hauling 600 extra lbs then I will be hauling ass through the desert so I don't really want to have to set my shocks up with 6 inches of preload. I'd prefer to set them up and then when I go light for the dez I can back off the top adjuster nut to lower my height. So for me, it seems to make sense to use shorter upper springs and let my triple rates take up some of the last few inches on extension. I do understand what is generally being suggested however.....
It seems from what I've gathered, if there's little enough spring pressure at full extension to actually allow the tender coil to extend, you're running less preload than ideal. That is, if that tender coil is one of the lightweight ones I see. It seems that these guys like 2-3" preload with a spring rate in the low 100 range, which means a preload pressure of somewhere around 400lbs (this is an EXTREMELY vague for instance, not trying to give a real example . My spring tuning knowledge is only what pirate has told me). It seems like being anywhere in that range might have a tender spring fully compressed anyways.

How much weight does it take to fully compress your average tender spring to block height?
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Old 07-13-2012, 02:51 PM   #186 (permalink)
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The flat coil tenders take almost nothing to compress.
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Old 07-13-2012, 03:27 PM   #187 (permalink)
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The flat coil tenders take almost nothing to compress.
Yes, they're referred to as "zero rate".
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Old 07-13-2012, 03:38 PM   #188 (permalink)
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It seems from what I've gathered, if there's little enough spring pressure at full extension to actually allow the tender coil to extend, you're running less preload than ideal. That is, if that tender coil is one of the lightweight ones I see. It seems that these guys like 2-3" preload with a spring rate in the low 100 range, which means a preload pressure of somewhere around 400lbs (this is an EXTREMELY vague for instance, not trying to give a real example . My spring tuning knowledge is only what pirate has told me). It seems like being anywhere in that range might have a tender spring fully compressed anyways.

How much weight does it take to fully compress your average tender spring to block height?
The tenders on my FOAs take ~10lbs...
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Old 07-13-2012, 04:28 PM   #189 (permalink)
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Using Wayne's system you wouldn't run a zero rate or tender coil to begin with. That is only to keep the springs from coming loose when they are too heavy a rate and you have to run no preload. Or the spring combo is way to short. By running the "light" springs Wayne is suggesting and adding preload to achieve the right ride height and other benefits you eliminate the zero rates. That in conjunction with the lower being shock travel plus 2" and the right length upper.

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Old 07-13-2012, 06:07 PM   #190 (permalink)
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Again, I get where Wayne is coming from- especially on an Ultra 4 rig with good up vs. down-travel, a shock package to compensate for the soft springs, and a racer willing to put in the time to tune etc. My point is that you need to consider shock package, vehicle use, customer expectations etc. when choosing springs.

Let's say you have a TJ w/750# rear corner weight and they want 4" of up-travel on a 14" travel shock. (Not uncommon) That means you need the shock to compress 10" plus another 2-3" of pre-load if you follow Wayne's 100% spring choice strategy. You would need to run a 100# x 14" over a 150# 16" with a combined spring rate of 60#. At ride height with normal weight, the top spring would compress 7.5". An Eibach 14" x 100# coil has 9.61" of travel before blocking out. (Eibach's are typically higher travel for the same length and rate vs. other manufactures.) This leaves you just over 2" left of travel in the top coil. Now you load up the Jeep with bitches, beer, & steak. Another 210# or rear corner weight and you just blocked out the top coil.
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Old 07-13-2012, 08:24 PM   #191 (permalink)
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Softest spring that will do The job.... If you add 600# the softest spring is not the same any more.

Plus a jack of all trades is a master of none. Just another compromise we make when building a rig. Consider all tasks or as many as you can!
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Old 07-13-2012, 09:10 PM   #192 (permalink)
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Softest spring that will do The job.... If you add 600# the softest spring is not the same any more.

Plus a jack of all trades is a master of none. Just another compromise we make when building a rig. Consider all tasks or as many as you can!
I think you just agreed with me You have to make compromises based on planned use of the vehicle.

I expect most customers do not want to re-valve and change springs depending upon that day's use of the vehicle.
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Old 07-13-2012, 11:12 PM   #193 (permalink)
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I am just setting up my coil overs to your advice but it has a good amount of body roll. some of my buddies say i need to just go with a higher spring rate. so should body roll not neccessarilly be controlled by the springs? mainly by sway bars and slider stops and valving?
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Old 07-13-2012, 11:26 PM   #194 (permalink)
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I think you just agreed with me You have to make compromises based on planned use of the vehicle.

I expect most customers do not want to re-valve and change springs depending upon that day's use of the vehicle.
That's why you put "clicker" shocks on a trail rig
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Old 07-13-2012, 11:35 PM   #195 (permalink)
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I am just setting up my coil overs to your advice but it has a good amount of body roll. some of my buddies say i need to just go with a higher spring rate. so should body roll not neccessarilly be controlled by the springs? mainly by sway bars and slider stops and valving?
Sway bars... Heavier springs are a bandaid and compromise... But I've been wrong before
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Old 07-13-2012, 11:59 PM   #196 (permalink)
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Wayne thanks for all the good info!

if you run a softer spring setup (how you would set something up) and have the right valving/weep hole adjustment are you able to have a 'street-able' rig without needing sway bars?
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Old 07-14-2012, 04:51 AM   #197 (permalink)
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Not much time this morning but yes springs help with sway, that's thats dual rates job.

I have never disagreed with you dirt-fab just want people to look at a different way to do it. Softest spring for the job and re read the very first line in the very first post. Theory works on go slow/streetable too but you have to consider more or different info.

Springs won't fix a tall poorly designed floopy jaloopy and most all coil sprung cars come stock with a bent bar sway bar so I would say a sway bar is a good idea for the street if you go tall and all that. Sway bars are not a band aid but an aid to be used appropriately. We do have several cars that are drivavle on the street with no sway bar but are better with a small one.
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Old 07-14-2012, 09:42 AM   #198 (permalink)
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Great Thread. And I don't think it was intended for multiple use rigs, but:

My Flatfender has a IRS, similar to a older Corvette with swing arms. Built many years ago (40+) and wayyy before by-passes. To solve the "go-fast"/ Rubicon load problem, there are two shocks with coil overs on each arm. One is sprung for go-fast, and the other is nothing more than a BIG helper spring that I can crank up into play when loading it up. The second coil-over shock could have been an air shock, or even an air bag, but they wouldn't fit...or look cool.

Is an "elegant solution" to multiple use, a coil overed, stop nut, ORI? King makes a top bagged shock for a dune buggy manufacturer and pressure changed depending on # of passengers.

Thanks for helping us with ideas for go-fast with minimal body roll. I think many are not realizing the value of the slider stop nut.

I am thinking that the sway bar would still be necessary or very helpful to prevent roll near the top of the stroke (like after a unweighted jump) and if the stop nuts had to be adjusted so "tight" near ride height preventing good soft compression. Is that on the right track?

How you guys feel all of that, and to know what to do...is awesome!
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Old 07-16-2012, 12:35 PM   #199 (permalink)
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so here is a ? I know you are setting up to go fast but when u get in the rocks or dirt here on the east cost for a short steep climb are most of the guys using the winch to suck the front down? I know my buggy (not u4) doesn't like to go up hills with no suck down, or is that taking out in the valving. I see a lot of u4 cars with suck down hooked up just want to know if it is a trade off for going fast with this set up. Thanks for the great info.
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Old 07-16-2012, 12:59 PM   #200 (permalink)
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so here is a ? I know you are setting up to go fast but when u get in the rocks or dirt here on the east cost for a short steep climb are most of the guys using the winch to suck the front down? I know my buggy (not u4) doesn't like to go up hills with no suck down, or is that taking out in the valving. I see a lot of u4 cars with suck down hooked up just want to know if it is a trade off for going fast with this set up. Thanks for the great info.
Not sure what you are asking but I have not had anyone complain about worse rock performance after tuning for go fast. In fact most believe the more controlled susp movment helps in the rocks. however the suck down winch does help with the climbs no matter how well the susp is tuned but it is more of a weight change traction thing.
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