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Old 01-08-2013, 09:49 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Budget IFS/IRS

So since I have a bunch of time on my hands, I'm toying with the idea of a 4 wheel IFS rear engine buggy.

So I'm trying to figure out where to go with the design and parts. Control arms are easy. But the "balljoint" joints. I see some mounted verticle, some mounted horizontal. Bolt horizontal makes sense to me, the weight of the vehicle is loaded against the body of the joint, as long as steering angle doesnt overtravel the missalignment, all is good, but a good forward hit would stress the joint in the wrong direction. With the bolt verticle, steering and forward pressures would be good, but suspension travel may max the joint and the weight of thee vehicle is always side loading it. Which way is better?
7/8" heims enough for the uppers? 1" for the lowers? Figuring 3500-3800lb rig.
I know theres no calculator that tells me, or hard and fast rules, but any pointers on geometry?

What about budget parts? I'm toying with the idea of flipped D50 TTB chunks. Allready have seals, mounting locations, they're cheap, can be outfitted to take 35 spline shafts, and high pinion, so when flipped they'd be low and no oiling issues.

Unit Bearings? 1 ton truck stuff? Knuckles can be fabbed to whatever, Honestly considering using TTB 50 spindle out, fabbed knuckles, big brakes and proper bearings are a bonus.

Shafts? Do they have to be CVs? I know they're smoother, but for a budget, if I ran equal length arms with no (or at least minimal) camber change, could I not get away with U-joints? The rear is easy, but up front I guess steering would play a huge issue, then again, TTB did it for years, and it seemed to work. Branik machined shafts even if the travel and steering got past the max combined angles? What about plunge? Slip in the shaft just like a driveshaft?

This is what I'm playing with. Less belly than the last one, and the one we're starting, and a little lower roof line. 110" WB, 19" of belly. 40s.




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Old 01-08-2013, 09:56 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I'd look into hummer portals for the outers. Will allow more travel while keeping the diff high.
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Old 01-08-2013, 10:01 AM   #3 (permalink)
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I thought about Hummer portals, I've actually got some 2:1 IFS chunks from a 3 ton or something that I could use.....But then its exotic parts, which I'm trying to stay away from.
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Old 01-08-2013, 10:05 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Don't you have a yota buggy to be building.
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Old 01-08-2013, 10:08 AM   #5 (permalink)
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But the "balljoint" joints. I see some mounted verticle, some mounted horizontal. Bolt horizontal makes sense to me, the weight of the vehicle is loaded against the body of the joint, as long as steering angle doesnt overtravel the missalignment, all is good, but a good forward hit would stress the joint in the wrong direction. With the bolt verticle, steering and forward pressures would be good, but suspension travel may max the joint and the weight of thee vehicle is always side loading it. Which way is better?
I'd use a normal ball joint for the load carrying one, then if you want to use a heim, put it in the upper with the bolt going vertical.
If you're dead set on heims on both, vertical bolt upper, horiz lower makes the most sense to me with how the forces are put on the parts. Well, provided that the lower ball joint is the load carrying one.

On the geometry part, I really want to further my understanding of that too, but almost nobody has info they're willing to give out. I'm thinking of building something using the knuckles off of one of the dana 50s I've wrecked. It'd be 2wd/lowCOG though, so nothing that most here would be interested in seeing. If it comes to fruition, it'll be in my 'idi into 90 ranger' thread.
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Old 01-08-2013, 10:08 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I'm in the hospital. Got a lot of time on my hands, Its all ready to go, I'm planning the next one.
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Old 01-08-2013, 10:20 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Finding Your Center – Finding Your Front and Rear Roll Center | OneDirt

This goes into mounting points and angles of the A arms a bit, I haven't found anything better than it so far.
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Old 01-08-2013, 10:20 AM   #8 (permalink)
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I'm in the hospital. Got a lot of time on my hands, Its all ready to go, I'm planning the next one.
Happy reading:

Dual Sport 4runner - TTORA Forum

The portal outers would allow you to run a smaller, lighter inboard diff as well (ford 8.8, supra/ Lexus IRS) all ready to go from the factory.
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Old 01-08-2013, 10:32 AM   #9 (permalink)
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we have an IFS/IRS "ultra4 esque" buggy competing over here in the King of the valleys events





40" trep stickies, LS rear mounted, hydraulic winches driven from a chain driven hydro pump of the engine
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it will never work because "pirate" said so
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Shannon has the skills he could wheel a sofa and kick ass.
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Old 01-08-2013, 10:37 AM   #10 (permalink)
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we have an IFS/IRS "ultra4 esque" buggy competing over here in the King of the valleys events





40" trep stickies, LS rear mounted, hydraulic winches driven from a chain driven hydro pump of the engine
What differentials, what outer knuckles, what shafts/ cv's?
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Old 01-08-2013, 10:55 AM   #11 (permalink)
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we have an IFS/IRS "ultra4 esque" buggy competing over here in the King of the valleys events





40" trep stickies, LS rear mounted, hydraulic winches driven from a chain driven hydro pump of the engine
Is it a law or something over there to run huge mud flaps/fenders like that?

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Old 01-08-2013, 11:02 AM   #12 (permalink)
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have you seen clippa's build thread? not really the same size as your going for, but it may have similar ideas.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/gener...t-fireant.html
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Old 01-08-2013, 11:03 AM   #13 (permalink)
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The diff's are ford 8.8" with grizzly lockers fitted to custom billet housings

i believe the knuckles are custom cnc billet items,

not sure on shafts & cv's as i know he has been suffering teething problems since its build with the cv's
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it will never work because "pirate" said so
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Shannon has the skills he could wheel a sofa and kick ass.

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Old 01-08-2013, 11:05 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Is it a law or something over there to run huge mud flaps/fenders like that?

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for our speed events yes,

its a pain but thats what our governing body ( who also provides our insurance cover) says we need to have, i believe we have had the rules relaxed slightly to allow us to run less wheel arch
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Old 01-08-2013, 11:35 AM   #15 (permalink)
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have you seen clippa's build thread? not really the same size as your going for, but it may have similar ideas.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/gener...t-fireant.html
Of course. Much smaller scale than I'm thinking though. I'm thinking 20-24" of wheel travel, 84" ish outside of tires, control arms in the 32-34" range? v8 and 40s.
I want something I can bomb access roads at 90mph and jump.
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Old 01-08-2013, 11:59 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Spidr;

Hope your doing well, I was in \ out of hospital a week ago.

Do you need a rig that heavy? If you can shed a few pounds I might have a suggestion for you.
I am currently in prototype\mockup build of a IFS \ IRS buggy. I have 2 full size front clips fabbed up to check geometries and test parts fitment; and steering. (Which is a challenge with IFS)
I am using production Diffs, Production knuckles and hubs, and simple custom CV's.
Tube frame and tube upper \ lower control arms using production balljoint mounting and bracketry.

This will be 4 or V6 powered, turboed and I have no doubt the diffs will take the stress. (ARB's add a bit of rigidity to a chunk)

PM me if you want to talk. I'm not ready to post up the design and cookbook, but this has been quite affordable so far.

take care
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Old 01-08-2013, 12:33 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Of course. Much smaller scale than I'm thinking though. I'm thinking 20-24" of wheel travel, 84" ish outside of tires, control arms in the 32-34" range? v8 and 40s.
I want something I can bomb access roads at 90mph and jump.
I'm not sure if the top current U4 cars are getting 20-24" of wheel travel. May be far fetched on a budget setup unless you plan to be much wider than a U4 car?
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Old 01-08-2013, 01:09 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Search my godzilla ifs post on here..ive been building almost exactly what you described...works bitchen!
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Old 01-08-2013, 01:12 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Was just re-reading your build actually.
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Old 01-08-2013, 03:30 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I'd look into hummer portals for the outers. Will allow more travel while keeping the diff high.

How so?
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Old 01-08-2013, 03:59 PM   #21 (permalink)
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So I'm trying to figure out where to go with the design and parts. Control arms are easy. But the "balljoint" joints. I see some mounted verticle, some mounted horizontal. Bolt horizontal makes sense to me, the weight of the vehicle is loaded against the body of the joint, as long as steering angle doesnt overtravel the missalignment, all is good, but a good forward hit would stress the joint in the wrong direction. With the bolt verticle, steering and forward pressures would be good, but suspension travel may max the joint and the weight of thee vehicle is always side loading it. Which way is better?

Having the through bolt horiozontal will limit your steering angle, but will 4WD you'd never get close to running out of suspension travel.

Running the bolt vertical will give you max steering angle and 4WD suspension travel as long as you have designed it properly.


Quote:
What about budget parts? I'm toying with the idea of flipped D50 TTB chunks. Allready have seals, mounting locations, they're cheap, can be outfitted to take 35 spline shafts, and high pinion, so when flipped they'd be low and no oiling issues.

Unit Bearings? 1 ton truck stuff? Knuckles can be fabbed to whatever, Honestly considering using TTB 50 spindle out, fabbed knuckles, big brakes and proper bearings are a bonus.
Tire size, engine and overall weight will all be part of this. IFS will load and break the same parts as a live axle, so build strength-wise like you would a live axle.


Quote:
Shafts? Do they have to be CVs? I know they're smoother, but for a budget, if I ran equal length arms with no (or at least minimal) camber change, could I not get away with U-joints? The rear is easy, but up front I guess steering would play a huge issue, then again, TTB did it for years, and it seemed to work. Branik machined shafts even if the travel and steering got past the max combined angles? What about plunge? Slip in the shaft just like a driveshaft?
For a steer axle, use CVs. If you want to experiment with u-joints at all try a double cardan joint. Don't know if it would work, but it's worth a shot.


[/QUOTE]

Looks cool, hope you try it!



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Of course. Much smaller scale than I'm thinking though. I'm thinking 20-24" of wheel travel, 84" ish outside of tires, control arms in the 32-34" range? v8 and 40s.
I want something I can bomb access roads at 90mph and jump.
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I'm not sure if the top current U4 cars are getting 20-24" of wheel travel. May be far fetched on a budget setup unless you plan to be much wider than a U4 car?
Wilson is right, you're going to have to go real wide to get in the 20" travel range. The only U4 car supposedly in the 20" travel range is Nick Nelson's rig and he is 90"+ wide to do that. (Napier's new car has a second set of longer a-arms for desert courses and that will get him into the 20" travel range at 90+ wide.

Farravonti's new suspension is 88-ish wide and 19" of travel and that is at the ragged edge of what can be done with currently available parts with 35*+ steering and proper geometry.

The trick to big travel with 4WD and proper geometry is long arms; so it is a combination of the diff width flange to flange, the width from outer pivot to wheel mounting flange and the length of the a-arms.

20"s is huge and unless you have huge motor, you probably wouldn't be able to take advantage of all the travel. Anything in the 15" to 17" range would be mind boggling to most people who have never driven long travel IFS fast; Scherer's car is blistering fast and only running 18" travel and it is questionable whether he has gotten to the edge on the car yet. He keeps saying he thinks he gets close, but the car keeps giving him more.

The design of an IFS is like the design of a 4link; anyone can do it if they keep a few basics in mind, but there is a big difference between between one that works and one that works great.
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Old 01-08-2013, 05:03 PM   #22 (permalink)
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How so?
Isn't cv angle ultimately the limiting factor in an ifs/IRS design? Using a portal hub allows the axle shaft to come in almost 6" higher than the wheel enter, reducing the static cv angle and/ or allowing for a higher differential placement due to the decreased angle; depends on where the builder wants to compromise?
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Old 01-08-2013, 05:09 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Isn't cv angle ultimately the limiting factor in an ifs/IRS design? Using a portal hub allows the axle shaft to come in almost 6" higher than the wheel enter, reducing the static cv angle and/ or allowing for a higher differential placement due to the decreased angle; depends on where the builder wants to compromise?
Would also depend on how much ground clearance you where building it for. The CV isnt going to care, it travels XX degrees. Portals just allow for more droop, where as a standard hub would have more up travel available.
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Old 01-08-2013, 05:38 PM   #24 (permalink)
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This was pretty cheap to build and works really well. You've probably already seen it...

H3 Long Travel Build

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Old 01-08-2013, 05:47 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Would also depend on how much ground clearance you where building it for. The CV isnt going to care, it travels XX degrees. Portals just allow for more droop, where as a standard hub would have more up travel available.
Yes, depending on how everything was set up. Droop could be strapped and more steering gained, just depends. I assume you'd looked at tjmark's new portal ifs build?
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