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Old 05-19-2017, 05:52 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Are there standard torque numbers that apply to most situations and are based on the bolt size? for our purposes... Link bolt, coil over bolt, seat belt bolt, etc..
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Old 05-19-2017, 06:00 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by DirtyComanche View Post

And you're wrong on everything else. If you can't fab to the point that your washers/fasteners are seating on flush and flat surfaces with holes that are the correct diameter, just give up.
I've been involved in trying to get folks to understand how bolts work for years and I've come to the conclusion that it is pretty much a waste of time to get folks to understand what you and Frank are preaching. It would seem that such a simple concept that escapes even some smart folks wouldn't be that hard to understand, but it is.
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Old 05-19-2017, 06:03 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Are there standard torque numbers that apply to most situations and are based on the bolt size? for our purposes... Link bolt, coil over bolt, seat belt bolt, etc..
When I was working we had a chart we used as a baseline, based on diameter and unf/unc. It was great. Wish I had a copy now.
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Old 05-19-2017, 06:10 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by DirtyComanche View Post

Plain nuts or nylocks also peg the meter. Stovers are the commonly available preferable nut, the price is not much higher and they work considerably better.
I've converted to the high strength thread locking compounds and plain high quality properly graded nuts and moved away from the upset style locknuts simply due to having too many issues with them tearing up threads even with a light application of anti-sieze and I'm not buying cheap stuff.

My preference would be a dependable supply of Stover or similar but I've not found the correct ones that I don't have issues with yet.

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Cheap washers... Don't even bother. They will do more harm than good. 90% of washers I run into are cheap garbage that isn't suitable for use on disposable furniture.
That can NOT be stressed enough. Good quality hardened washers are worth what ever it takes to find them. If you aren't using them, you're pretty much wasting your time and effort putting together anything with fasteners.

Never assembly anything dry. Always use a torque wrench on a critical component and use the correct torque.

Many fastener failures would be prevented if people actually purchased fine thread fasteners, used properly sized high quality hardened washers, and torqued said fasteners correctly. A loose bolt is a soon to be broken bolt. Shit washers will not shoulder the bolt/nut correctly, and will either cause a point overload on the fastener, or will extrude and lead to the loosening of the fastener. Coarse threads with plain nuts or nylocks will not maintain torque in environments of high stress cycles. A bolt that was never torqued correctly is not even given a chance.

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But, that's just me.
No, it's not just you. But hey, you can't be a race car god if you aren't buying fasteners that are too long and cutting them down to keep the threads out of the joint.
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Old 05-19-2017, 06:14 AM   #30 (permalink)
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When I was working we had a chart we used as a baseline, based on diameter and unf/unc. It was great. Wish I had a copy now.
That would be a nice poster for the shop and trailer wall.
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Old 05-19-2017, 06:18 AM   #31 (permalink)
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This, and those of you hammering bolts in so hard that you're fucking up the threads, are idiots. If your suspension is so bound up you can't get the bolt in you have bigger issues. Hell buy a prybar, something.
I wouldn't say "idiot" but it's trail fix situation. Winch pulling an axle back in place while someone is prying on a heim or link on a trail.

If you are hammering a bolt in while in the shop... then I agree.
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Old 05-19-2017, 06:20 AM   #32 (permalink)
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oh looky more engineer shit that doesnt compute to the real world of 4x4 backyard fab the vast majority of bolts on our rigs are seeing shear forces, bray d brings up another great point of diameter. the forces seen in what we do most people either dont have a large enough diameter bolt to get enough tension to remove any shear forces or they are not tightening the bolts to the proper torque, which once again the fine thread comes into play with its greater shear strength of the threaded section.

youre right bray d we could run around in circles arguing about this subject for a long time love me my fine threads
If more people did "engineer shit" backyard guys wouldn't be breaking bolts.
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Old 05-19-2017, 10:24 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Shear application =/= pure shear loading, and I did not intend to imply that.

And you're wrong on everything else. If you can't fab to the point that your washers/fasteners are seating on flush and flat surfaces with holes that are the correct diameter, just give up.
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I've been involved in trying to get folks to understand how bolts work for years and I've come to the conclusion that it is pretty much a waste of time to get folks to understand what you and Frank are preaching. It would seem that such a simple concept that escapes even some smart folks wouldn't be that hard to understand, but it is.
We're going to have to agree to disagree, gents. A properly designed joint will perform as expected with a coarse thread bolt if it's assembled properly and bolt tension is maintained. If Loctite isn't sufficient, I would use Nordlocks.

You have success with fine threads and Stovers. I have success with coarse threads and Loctite. Neither of us have issues.

If you guys' shit is designed to the point that you absolutely need the advantages of fine thread bolts to prevent failure, perhaps you should reconsider who's the hack.

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If more people did "engineer shit" backyard guys wouldn't be breaking bolts.
Quoted for truth.
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Old 05-19-2017, 11:52 AM   #34 (permalink)
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If you guys' shit is designed to the point that you absolutely need the advantages of fine thread bolts to prevent failure, perhaps you should reconsider who's the hack.
Yeah because you see course thread bolts on high end race cars.

I've never had issues with fine thread bolts. But also always cut, shoulder, and chase every bolt that goes on the car. I also fit tabs and brackets that the bolts slide into without the need for a hammer.. I'm sure most would never have issues with coarse bolts. But for those that are looking for every advantage. Quality fine thread bolts are the answer.
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Old 05-19-2017, 12:43 PM   #35 (permalink)
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We're going to have to agree to disagree, gents. A properly designed joint will perform as expected with a coarse thread bolt if it's assembled properly and bolt tension is maintained. If Loctite isn't sufficient, I would use Nordlocks.

You have success with fine threads and Stovers. I have success with coarse threads and Loctite. Neither of us have issues.

If you guys' shit is designed to the point that you absolutely need the advantages of fine thread bolts to prevent failure, perhaps you should reconsider who's the hack.

And if you're as good at designing and implementing joints as you say you are, you won't have the problems with them the hacks do, now will you?
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Old 05-19-2017, 01:35 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Yeah because you see course thread bolts on high end race cars.

I've never had issues with fine thread bolts. But also always cut, shoulder, and chase every bolt that goes on the car. I also fit tabs and brackets that the bolts slide into without the need for a hammer.. I'm sure most would never have issues with coarse bolts. But for those that are looking for every advantage. Quality fine thread bolts are the answer.
High end race cars vs garage fab rock buggies. Application is everything.

I never said fine thread bolts don't have their place. An environment where they're subject to contamination, damage, and improper installation is not one of them.

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And if you're as good at designing and implementing joints as you say you are, you won't have the problems with them the hacks do, now will you?
So far so good.
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Old 05-19-2017, 01:50 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Yeah because you see course thread bolts on high end race cars.
The F1 guys will still think its a tractor. I'm thinking BSF Whitworth and that way you've the distinct aura of pedigree.
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Old 05-19-2017, 01:54 PM   #38 (permalink)
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High end race cars vs garage fab rock buggies. Application is everything.

I never said fine thread bolts don't have their place. An environment where they're subject to contamination, damage, and improper installation is not one of them.
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Sums it up pretty well.
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Old 05-19-2017, 03:10 PM   #39 (permalink)
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I never said fine thread bolts don't have their place. An environment where they're subject to contamination, damage, and improper installation is not one of them.


Just so we have our descriptions correct, is KOH considered the non fine thread environment?
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Old 05-19-2017, 03:30 PM   #40 (permalink)
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High end race cars vs garage fab rock buggies. Application is everything.

I never said fine thread bolts don't have their place. An environment where they're subject to contamination, damage, and improper installation is not one of them.
When I say race car. I'm talking off-road racing. You're not going to find coarse thread on any quality build.
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Old 05-19-2017, 03:31 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Just so we have our descriptions correct, is KOH considered the non fine thread environment?
Since that's where Hurley races his garage fab rock buggy I say yes. Hell, he should use all thread...

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Old 05-19-2017, 03:33 PM   #42 (permalink)
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When I say race car. I'm talking off-road racing. You're not going to find coarse thread on any quality build.
Most of my friends wouldn't put them on homebuilt crawlers.
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Old 05-19-2017, 04:49 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Since that's where Hurley races his garage fab rock buggy I say yes. Hell, he should use all thread...

mount all your brackets with sleeves to take the load, stuff them with all thread and double nut with a nor-lock in between on both ends.

no more loose bolts
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Old 05-19-2017, 06:00 PM   #44 (permalink)
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We're going to have to agree to disagree, gents. A properly designed joint will perform as expected with a coarse thread bolt if it's assembled properly and bolt tension is maintained. If Loctite isn't sufficient, I would use Nordlocks.

You have success with fine threads and Stovers. I have success with coarse threads and Loctite. Neither of us have issues.

If you guys' shit is designed to the point that you absolutely need the advantages of fine thread bolts to prevent failure, perhaps you should reconsider who's the hack.
Agree. Just looking at CAT's bolt selection the amount of coarse thread fasteners is far greater than fine. Seems they are okay with 80% coarse.

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The F1 guys will still think its a tractor. I'm thinking BSF Whitworth and that way you've the distinct aura of pedigree.
Yep, so I buy CAT bolts see above.

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When I say race car. I'm talking off-road racing. You're not going to find coarse thread on any quality build.
Twisted uses as much coarse as they can. They don't have issue with bolts breaking. Oh course they run bolts in single shear as well which many seem to think will trigger the spontaneous explosion of the universe.

You guys want to get really uppity then any quality builds should only use gun drilled bolts and that is the ideal way to make bolts with the optimal strength/weight ratio for racing. So that leaves only 2 quality build rigs ever.
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Old 05-19-2017, 07:44 PM   #45 (permalink)
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When I was working we had a chart we used as a baseline, based on diameter and unf/unc. It was great. Wish I had a copy now.
Years ago I printed out and laminated the charts from Portland bolt. Gives the grades and wet/lubed torque values.
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Old 05-19-2017, 08:11 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Years ago I printed out and laminated the charts from Portland bolt. Gives the grades and wet/lubed torque values.

Its always advisable to use the charts from the specific manufacturer you are using.

I only pointed it out because of the various choices of hardware and the massive degrees of variation between specs. Especially when considering alot of our domestic goods come from regions that don't really much care if it meets the certificate they provide or not.

This rolls back to another point someone else wrote about using good washers. I think something that should be taken into consideration before pitch should be quality of fasteners. What we hope we are purchasing when we purchase a good fastener is a quality alloy with an engineered, and consistent, heat treat throughout the batches.
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Old 05-20-2017, 09:15 PM   #47 (permalink)
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I will say I always use coarse thread bolts on all my suspension. We work on and drive a race car, it has coarse thread bolts. However, we use grade 8 washers and always torque to the rated bolt torque. Except on heims, if you do that it'll squash the misalignment spacers, so we under torque and use a stove nut. I'm sure if we raced every month maybe we would find something wrong with coarse threads, but I can't say I've ever had one come loose that I've torqued.

If you are breaking bolts, you aren't torquing it properly, using shitty washers, and the nut got loose, no matter the thread pitch.
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Old 05-21-2017, 08:09 AM   #48 (permalink)
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So what are the preferred nuts to use with fine thread link/shock bolts properly shouldered and cut down with hardened washers?

Best of Luck,

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Old 05-21-2017, 10:49 AM   #49 (permalink)
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So what does everybody think about cut vs rolled threads?

Does anyone carry one spare bolt with a long shank and a die to thread it as needed?

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Originally Posted by '05TJLWBRUBY View Post
So what are the preferred nuts to use with fine thread link/shock bolts properly shouldered and cut down with hardened washers?

Best of Luck,

Mike
Depends on the application

Last edited by arse_sidewards; 05-21-2017 at 10:54 AM.
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Old 05-21-2017, 12:41 PM   #50 (permalink)
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So what does everybody think about cut vs rolled threads?

Does anyone carry one spare bolt with a long shank and a die to thread it as needed?



Depends on the application
Rolled threads hands down.
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