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Old 11-21-2004, 08:08 AM   #1 (permalink)
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cc's of chevy 441x heads?

does anyone know the cc size of chevy's 441x head? maybe a good link that describes the head? done a google and misc. searches and have come up with nothing on cc's... I'm really after the chamber size for compression factor...Thanks
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Old 11-21-2004, 08:43 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harkinoff
does anyone know the cc size of chevy's 441x head?
Paraphrased from the "Chevrolet Small-block V8 Interchange Manual" by David Lewis: The 441 cylinder heads of '69 to '72 have a combustion chamber of about 74cc and have a chamber like the 1968 290 casting. The 441 has 1.94 intakes and 1.50 exhaust valves and was/is considered an intermediate performance head. It uses the large 13/16ths socket flat-seat spark plugs and makes a great street performance head.

For off-road use it should give good throttle response with its small valves. What are you planning on using for pistons? Will you deck the block? I'd suggest that you try to keep the compression ratio to about 9.5:1 to run on pump gas. Check to make sure your heads have steam holes if you are planning on running a 400 inch engine.

Good luck,
Lonn
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Old 11-21-2004, 08:55 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEVROVR
Paraphrased from the "Chevrolet Small-block V8 Interchange Manual" by David Lewis: The 441 cylinder heads of '69 to '72 have a combustion chamber of about 74cc and have a chamber like the 1968 290 casting. The 441 has 1.94 intakes and 1.50 exhaust valves and was/is considered an intermediate performance head. It uses the large 13/16ths socket flat-seat spark plugs and makes a great street performance head.

For off-road use it should give good throttle response with its small valves. What are you planning on using for pistons? Will you deck the block? I'd suggest that you try to keep the compression ratio to about 9.5:1 to run on pump gas. Check to make sure your heads have steam holes if you are planning on running a 400 inch engine.

Good luck,
Lonn
Thanks...

its running keith black flattop pistons with a .030 over bore.. the compression is running 120 psi in all cylinders with the 441 heads. I'm wondering what size cc heads I will need to get the 9:5:1 ratio. The engine is real fresh and hasn't been hammered. The speed shop I had build the motor I think was a little off on what they determined on compression. Shouldn't a 9:5:1 motor be around 150psi on compression?
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Old 11-21-2004, 09:25 AM   #4 (permalink)
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the cam effects that, no easy way to determine compression ratio with cranking compression
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Old 11-21-2004, 09:25 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Is there any info online about this?

I have a '88 350 from a suburban that I want to make a 383 but do not want super high compression, so I need to know what my heads are or what heads I should be looking for.

Serious newbie to chevy stuff here.
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Old 11-21-2004, 09:55 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harkinoff
Thanks...

its running keith black flattop pistons with a .030 over bore.. the compression is running 120 psi in all cylinders with the 441 heads. I'm wondering what size cc heads I will need to get the 9:5:1 ratio. The engine is real fresh and hasn't been hammered. The speed shop I had build the motor I think was a little off on what they determined on compression. Shouldn't a 9:5:1 motor be around 150psi on compression?
My 9.59:1 has 185 psi of cranking compression with a 277/285 duration cam, but it has a 4.185 bore and 4.125 stroke.

You must be running one hell of a camshaft or your compression ratio is WAY low to have that little cranking compression, I assume this is a .030 over 350 chevy with 4 valve relief pistons?

My chart shows the 441x at 80cc and the 441 at 76 cc so say yours is 79cc to allow for a resurface, 5 cc for the valve reliefs, say .020 down bore at TDC and a .040/4.080 head gasket you should be at 8.5:1 (ah ha, there is the reason for the low cranking compresion) so to get to 9.5:1 you need a 67 cc head.

Now one thing to remember when you get up near 9.5:1 your getting close to pinging with premium gas and iron heads so you may want to think about closing up your quench gap. I would deck the block to around .005" in the hole and run a .040 head gasket to keep your quench gap at .045".
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Old 11-21-2004, 11:41 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Since your engine is already in the rig you probably won't be decking the block, but you can still measure the deck height with the heads off. You may be able to use a shim gasket to increase the quench factor and some small chamber heads would definitely add some kick to your mill. So much depends on what the TOTAL package presents. Cam duration and lift and deck height will effect your choices.

Are you unhappy with the engine's performance? I'm curious as to what sparked your initial interest in determining the 441x specs.

Lonn
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Old 11-21-2004, 12:47 PM   #8 (permalink)
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if you need cylinder head info check out this site

http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tablehdc.htm
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Old 11-21-2004, 05:59 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NEVROVR
Since your engine is already in the rig you probably won't be decking the block, but you can still measure the deck height with the heads off. You may be able to use a shim gasket to increase the quench factor and some small chamber heads would definitely add some kick to your mill. So much depends on what the TOTAL package presents. Cam duration and lift and deck height will effect your choices.

Are you unhappy with the engine's performance? I'm curious as to what sparked your initial interest in determining the 441x specs.

Lonn
The performance is the main issue. I'm regearing as well, going from 343's to 392's then going with a 700r4 trannie with around a 2500 stall. One reason for the interest in change was deciding whether to pull this engine out of the camaro and put in the scout or just install the 441 heads on a 383 I'm building for the scout and then put a set of Darts or something equal on the camaro 355. The camaro is the wifes so That is why I deciding on putting the 383 in the Scout. The cam is a comp cam with a 286 duration and 480 something lift if my memory is right... The other issue is the scout is burning propane, so the compression has to be up around 9:5:1 so I can still run pump gas. I'm currently running a multi-fuel system on the scout 350. I'm probably going to have to get rid of the flattops that are in the 383 right now and go with a popup piston to get the 9:5:1 compression I was seeking on the camaro engine with these 441x heads?..
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Old 11-21-2004, 06:22 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TPIJeep
My 9.59:1 has 185 psi of cranking compression with a 277/285 duration cam, but it has a 4.185 bore and 4.125 stroke.

You must be running one hell of a camshaft or your compression ratio is WAY low to have that little cranking compression, I assume this is a .030 over 350 chevy with 4 valve relief pistons?

My chart shows the 441x at 80cc and the 441 at 76 cc so say yours is 79cc to allow for a resurface, 5 cc for the valve reliefs, say .020 down bore at TDC and a .040/4.080 head gasket you should be at 8.5:1 (ah ha, there is the reason for the low cranking compresion) so to get to 9.5:1 you need a 67 cc head.

Now one thing to remember when you get up near 9.5:1 your getting close to pinging with premium gas and iron heads so you may want to think about closing up your quench gap. I would deck the block to around .005" in the hole and run a .040 head gasket to keep your quench gap at .045".
The pistons in this 350 are the keith black silv-o-lites/ .030 bore...
So if I go with a set of Trick flows, Summit compares them against the 441's on page 134 of the new book, should I go with the 64cc or the 72cc to keep the compression around 9:5:1? The cam this 350 has is 286 duration and around 480 something lift...Another thing is the pinging issue with aluminum heads, with a 64cc chamber it will be pinging on premium pump gas, so do I just retard the timing so it don't ping? or go with the 72cc heads..I am after some performance out of this camaro for the wife, it might end up with a giggle gas setup for some extra giggy up needed for some of the imports running around...

Thanks for the input you all
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Old 11-21-2004, 06:24 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by masonmachines
if you need cylinder head info check out this site

http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tablehdc.htm
Great link, Thanks...........
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Old 11-21-2004, 06:38 PM   #12 (permalink)
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With the 72cc head your looking at 9.10:1 and with the 64cc head your looking at 9.9:1 assuming a 5cc valve relief allowance. While a 67cc head would be your best bet for all out run the crap out of it I would go with the 72cc, now if you want to run on the edge go with the 64cc. I have had so many pinging issues I am gun shy above 9.5:1 on pump gas. The cam is small so that won't help much with bleeding off cylinder pressure, it will be a hit or miss thing with the 64cc.

My old motor pinged everywhere from 1800-3500 with the timing as low as 20 and as high as 36, that was at 10:1 with alum heads.

I wouldn't spray much giggle gas on those pistons, watch yourself there!
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Old 11-21-2004, 08:03 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TPIJeep
With the 72cc head your looking at 9.10:1 and with the 64cc head your looking at 9.9:1 assuming a 5cc valve relief allowance. While a 67cc head would be your best bet for all out run the crap out of it I would go with the 72cc, now if you want to run on the edge go with the 64cc. I have had so many pinging issues I am gun shy above 9.5:1 on pump gas. The cam is small so that won't help much with bleeding off cylinder pressure, it will be a hit or miss thing with the 64cc.

My old motor pinged everywhere from 1800-3500 with the timing as low as 20 and as high as 36, that was at 10:1 with alum heads.

I wouldn't spray much giggle gas on those pistons, watch yourself there!

Thanks again for the info.. What would be your choice on after market heads for this 355 in the camaro and how would you run the 441X heads on the 383 on both pump gas and propane? piston choices?
Also do these keith black pistons melt down real easy with the giggle gas? If I did hit it with the giggle gas, just use a cheater system?
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Old 11-21-2004, 08:07 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Found another great reference for Chevy specs. The 441x is listed as an 80cc head.

http://www.mortec.com/castnum.htm
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Old 11-21-2004, 09:17 PM   #15 (permalink)
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When you get serious with nitrous you really need to have a piston engineered for Nitrous with a thicker top and what not, not taking anything away from the KB's but nitrous is violant.

I really like the AFR heads, there are many options I would look for one with a 180-200cc runner size, they come CNC'd ...

As far as the 441X on the 383 I would run a SRP Forged piston, 2 valve relief and leave the heads like they are, that will put you in the 9.5:1 range which should work for gas or pane.
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