Double ended cylinder tie rods??? - Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum
 
Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum  

Go Back   Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum > General Tech > General 4x4 Discussion
Notices

Reply
 
Share Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-03-2005, 08:08 PM   #1 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Member # 8815
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 797
Double ended cylinder tie rods???

OK I did a search and I read the steering tech article but it was stated in the article that his tie rod angles were not ideal due to the hole placement in the steering arms.What my question is, is there a hardfast rule on the angles of these tie rods to prevent cylinder bending?WHat i get so far is to get it as high as possible and as far back towards the axle as possible.This would angle the tie rods back at a neutral(straight) steering postion.Is this what you want?Or would you want the tie rods to be inline with the holes in the steering arms?I know you want to use the full travel of the cylinder but what is the best angle to mount them at?One more question,is anyone running a PSC cylinder?How do you like it,any problems?Thanks.
__________________
2009 Single seater rear engine buggy on rockwells.Well thats when I should finish........
mudddog91 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-04-2005, 05:39 AM   #2 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Member # 8815
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 797
Damn nobody has an answer or is this a dumb question............
__________________
2009 Single seater rear engine buggy on rockwells.Well thats when I should finish........
mudddog91 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Old 02-04-2005, 07:27 AM   #3 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Member # 26680
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 141
Send a message via ICQ to elacruze Send a message via AIM to elacruze Send a message via Yahoo to elacruze
Acceptable angle is entirely dependent upon the strength of the components. Some forklifts have nearly 45* angle at the cylinder, but the cylinders may have a 1-1/2 inch rod to push a 3/4" tie rod.
__________________
'85 K3500 6.2diesel th400/203/205 d60 14b locked 4.10s 305/85-16 Coyotes hyd Koenig winch

One ton or none!

http://www.4x4support.com/
elacruze is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-04-2005, 07:42 AM   #4 (permalink)
Zeus of the Sluice
 
Join Date: May 2000
Member # 845
Location: VA
Posts: 2,542
My understanding is that the angle does not matter(assuming everything is strong enough to hold up). The most important piece is getting the holes in your steering arms setup for correct ackerman and stroke for the ram.

CJ
CJ Lagos is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-04-2005, 07:43 AM   #5 (permalink)
#1 BURRITO IN NM!!!!
 
sceep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Member # 10798
Location: Nremuda Mexico
Posts: 10,406
Send a message via AIM to sceep Send a message via MSN to sceep
Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ Lagos
My understanding is that the angle does not matter(assuming everything is strong enough to hold up). The most important piece is getting the holes in your steering arms setup for correct ackerman and stroke for the ram.

CJ
ditto that. get them as close to a straight line as possible and call it good.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by USDA forest service website
It is every American's birthright to use the national forests and grasslands in multiple ways, including outdoor recreation in all its forms.
sceep is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-04-2005, 12:44 PM   #6 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Member # 27312
Location: Norway
Posts: 607
Send a message via ICQ to Amund Send a message via MSN to Amund
Put them all so that the tie rod and cylinder rod are as close to paralell as possible when the steering is full lock... i mean that the tie rod is parallell to the long side of the cyl rod... if you know what I mean. That is where the cyl will be most exposed to bending if the loads are not straigt on it, due to the long rod out of the cyl. That's how I'm planning it, but we'll see how space and practicaities dictates it... as they say the cyl will take a lot. I'm just worried about rolling and landing hard on the tires... would be a bitch to bend a cyl and being stranded w/ fawked steering far away from home.
Amund is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-04-2005, 12:46 PM   #7 (permalink)
#1 BURRITO IN NM!!!!
 
sceep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Member # 10798
Location: Nremuda Mexico
Posts: 10,406
Send a message via AIM to sceep Send a message via MSN to sceep
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amund
. would be a bitch to bend a cyl and being stranded w/ fawked steering far away from home.
yes... yes it is..
Attached Images
 
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by USDA forest service website
It is every American's birthright to use the national forests and grasslands in multiple ways, including outdoor recreation in all its forms.
sceep is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-04-2005, 01:12 PM   #8 (permalink)
Rock God
 
Rock Toy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Member # 28
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,713
Send a message via AIM to Rock Toy
Pics might be big (can anyone resize?) but this is what mine looks like. The tie rod should keep the ram from bending...

edit by camo.... pic was WAY to large keep them 640x480 60k
__________________
'97 Grocery Getter overflowing with bolt-on goodness

Last edited by camo; 02-06-2005 at 10:58 AM.
Rock Toy is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-04-2005, 08:31 PM   #9 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Member # 8815
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 797
OK this is what Ive got so far.This thing looks pretty beefy som in hoping I can get away with some angle.Any suggestions?
<a href="http://img217.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img217&image=10098060tt.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img217.exs.cx/img217/9526/10098060tt.th.jpg" border="0" alt="Free Image Hosting at www.ImageShack.us" /></a>
__________________
2009 Single seater rear engine buggy on rockwells.Well thats when I should finish........
mudddog91 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-04-2005, 08:33 PM   #10 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Member # 8815
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 797
<a href="http://img237.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img237&image=10098076ew.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img237.exs.cx/img237/6246/10098076ew.th.jpg" border="0" alt="Free Image Hosting at www.ImageShack.us" /></a>
__________________
2009 Single seater rear engine buggy on rockwells.Well thats when I should finish........
mudddog91 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-04-2005, 08:34 PM   #11 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Member # 8815
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 797
Click on the above images to see them much bigger......
__________________
2009 Single seater rear engine buggy on rockwells.Well thats when I should finish........
mudddog91 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-04-2005, 08:40 PM   #12 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Member # 26680
Location: Detroit, MI
Posts: 141
Send a message via ICQ to elacruze Send a message via AIM to elacruze Send a message via Yahoo to elacruze
Give a pic where we can see the cylinder and both steering arms, if you can.
__________________
'85 K3500 6.2diesel th400/203/205 d60 14b locked 4.10s 305/85-16 Coyotes hyd Koenig winch

One ton or none!

http://www.4x4support.com/
elacruze is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-04-2005, 08:57 PM   #13 (permalink)
Zeus of the Sluice
 
Bushwhacker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Member # 9138
Location: Godfrey, IL
Posts: 2,532
Send a message via ICQ to Bushwhacker
Wasnt there a discussion on here about not running a tie rod with full hydro?
__________________
WEROCK Judge
RROCK Legends Competitor

97 TJ buggy,4.0,727,Atlas,D60,14B

Facebook

myspace
Bushwhacker is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-04-2005, 09:16 PM   #14 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Member # 8815
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 797
<a href="http://img217.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img217&image=10098108zd.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img217.exs.cx/img217/7377/10098108zd.th.jpg" border="0" alt="Free Image Hosting at www.ImageShack.us" /></a>
__________________
2009 Single seater rear engine buggy on rockwells.Well thats when I should finish........
mudddog91 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-04-2005, 09:18 PM   #15 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Member # 8815
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 797
<a href="http://img217.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img217&image=10098157xw.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://img217.exs.cx/img217/92/10098157xw.th.jpg" border="0" alt="Free Image Hosting at www.ImageShack.us" /></a>
__________________
2009 Single seater rear engine buggy on rockwells.Well thats when I should finish........
mudddog91 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-04-2005, 09:51 PM   #16 (permalink)
Rock God
 
Rock Toy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Member # 28
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,713
Send a message via AIM to Rock Toy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushwhacker
Wasnt there a discussion on here about not running a tie rod with full hydro?

Yep, and the conclusion was that if you are a dumbass and can't draw two parallel lines, dont' do it Otherwise, its a good idea and will work just fine...
__________________
'97 Grocery Getter overflowing with bolt-on goodness
Rock Toy is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-04-2005, 09:54 PM   #17 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Supergper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Member # 2159
Location: SLC, Utah
Posts: 2,199
Send a message via ICQ to Supergper Send a message via AIM to Supergper Send a message via MSN to Supergper Send a message via Yahoo to Supergper
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushwhacker
Wasnt there a discussion on here about not running a tie rod with full hydro?
I think you are confused, no you dont run a full length tie rod with double ended cylinder BUT you need to attach the cylinder to your knuckle some how, the two small pieces that are on either side are refered to as tie rods...
__________________
-Caleb Call
Supergper is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-04-2005, 10:33 PM   #18 (permalink)
Zeus of the Sluice
 
Bushwhacker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Member # 9138
Location: Godfrey, IL
Posts: 2,532
Send a message via ICQ to Bushwhacker
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supergper
I think you are confused, no you dont run a full length tie rod with double ended cylinder BUT you need to attach the cylinder to your knuckle some how, the two small pieces that are on either side are refered to as tie rods...

I dont think i'm confused, look at Rock toys pics. He's using both.
__________________
WEROCK Judge
RROCK Legends Competitor

97 TJ buggy,4.0,727,Atlas,D60,14B

Facebook

myspace
Bushwhacker is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-04-2005, 11:02 PM   #19 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Supergper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Member # 2159
Location: SLC, Utah
Posts: 2,199
Send a message via ICQ to Supergper Send a message via AIM to Supergper Send a message via MSN to Supergper Send a message via Yahoo to Supergper
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushwhacker
I dont think i'm confused, look at Rock toys pics. He's using both.
My bad, I just skipped those pics cause they are so fawkin huge ...IMO its a waste and not needed...
__________________
-Caleb Call
Supergper is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-05-2005, 01:54 AM   #20 (permalink)
Rock God
 
Rock Toy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Member # 28
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,713
Send a message via AIM to Rock Toy
So what are you saying SuperG ??? Am I making a mistake? I personally think you have no idea what you are talking about....what do you consider to be the negative of running a tie rod with a balanced ram when set up properly?
__________________
'97 Grocery Getter overflowing with bolt-on goodness
Rock Toy is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-05-2005, 09:07 AM   #21 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Supergper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Member # 2159
Location: SLC, Utah
Posts: 2,199
Send a message via ICQ to Supergper Send a message via AIM to Supergper Send a message via MSN to Supergper Send a message via Yahoo to Supergper
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Toy
So what are you saying SuperG ??? Am I making a mistake? I personally think you have no idea what you are talking about....what do you consider to be the negative of running a tie rod with a balanced ram when set up properly?
I'm saying exactly what I said, its a waste and not needed. There's nothing wrong with doing it, its just simply not needed. So calm down a little...
__________________
-Caleb Call
Supergper is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-05-2005, 10:11 AM   #22 (permalink)
mj
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Member # 1919
Location: BC Canada
Posts: 7,478
it will bind
basic math proves it
if you can prove otherwise then fly at it
I like the testing idea that iirc Station suggested in the other thread
- assemble the steering with redundant tierod at center
-then turn steering to full lock and see if you can remove and replace the redundant tierod
mj is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-05-2005, 10:29 AM   #23 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Member # 5544
Location: Durham, NC
Posts: 642
Send a message via AIM to Beast40
Quote:
Originally Posted by mj
it will bind
basic math proves it
if you can prove otherwise then fly at it
I like the testing idea that iirc Station suggested in the other thread
- assemble the steering with redundant tierod at center
-then turn steering to full lock and see if you can remove and replace the redundant tierod


Wouldn't that mean that any knuckle to knuckle tie rid would bind then?

What is the difference between the "redundant" tie rod and a standard knuckle to knuckle tie rod?
__________________
99TJ 350>700r4>Atlas3.8>60s
[url]www.BEAST40.com[/url]
Beast40 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-05-2005, 12:37 PM   #24 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Member # 5110
Location: SoCal
Posts: 4,685
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beast40
Wouldn't that mean that any knuckle to knuckle tie rid would bind then?

What is the difference between the "redundant" tie rod and a standard knuckle to knuckle tie rod?
On a stock front end there is only 1 link connecting the knuckles (the
tietod). When you put on a double ended ram (with both ends attached
to the knuckles) it controls the toe. If you kept the tietod on there
(which also controls the toe) you now have 2 thing fighting each other
to control the toe.

Now add Ackermann into the mix. Ackermann is basically "change in toe
with change in steering angle". With a standard tierod you will have
almost no toe change when steering. With a double ended ram you
could have almost any toe change you want when steering. Now if you
have one link that wants to change the toe .020" and one that wants to
change the link .050" you will now have .030" worth of bind.

All that being said if you are going to use a tie rod you should only use
one end of the double ended ram.

If you want to find out how much Ackermann you have take a look at
this spreadsheet that RaceTech Mag. (road race stuff) put out a few years ago.
http://home.earthlink.net/~triaged/Files/Ackermann.zip
Edit:
This spreadsheet was made for R&P steering so it will work with a double
ended ram but won't work with a normal tierod
__________________
Link to thread on my calculator http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=204893

Last edited by Triaged; 02-05-2005 at 12:42 PM.
Triaged is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-05-2005, 02:17 PM   #25 (permalink)
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Member # 8815
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 797
OK now that everybody has jacked this thread about wether or not to run 1 tie rod with a double ended ram does anyone have any input about my original post?
__________________
2009 Single seater rear engine buggy on rockwells.Well thats when I should finish........
mudddog91 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Pirate4x4.Com : 4x4 and Off-Road Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

** A VERIFICATION EMAIL IS SENT TO THIS ADDRESS TO COMPLETE REGISTRATION!! **

Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:29 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.