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Old 03-11-2006, 05:42 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Linking 2 recovery straps together

Say you need a recovery strap thats 40 ft in length but you only have a 30 ft strap and a 20 ft strap. Whats the safest way to link these two straps together?

I know you aren't supposed to link them using a shackle or tie them together using a knot (not sure why anyone would want to tie them together (strength factor aside) because after jerking on the straps you would probably have a hell of a time un-doing the knot, afterwards).

The only 2 ways I can think of doing it is:

1) to take 20 ft strap and thread it through the eye of the 30 ft strap and double up the 20 footer so both eye ends are together and even and you now have 10 ft of doubled up strap + 30 ft of the other single line strap.

2) as above except thread the one eye of the 20 ft strap thru the other eye so you end up with a choker (although I believe by doing this the rating of the strap is lower than it is if used as a straight (verticle) strap). If I did this would the choker strap be difficult to release because of the tightening of the choke section once it was put under load from the jerk force?

Am I missing any other option?
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Old 03-11-2006, 05:48 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Option 1 would work, or option 2 but do the opposite...double the 20' still, the use the 30', thread one loop through the other and you have your "choker", it won't be too difficult to get back apart.
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Old 03-11-2006, 07:37 AM   #3 (permalink)
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What is wrong with linking them together with a shackle?
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Old 03-11-2006, 07:43 AM   #4 (permalink)
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If I link two straps together, I always use a 1" x 6" piece of wooden dowel in the loop. Makes it much easier to take apart after pressure is put on it.

Adding a shackle is just adding a couple pounds of "missle" if one of the straps should break.
http://www.southernhighrollers.com/t..._miss_from.htm
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Old 03-11-2006, 07:54 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Linking the two straps with a shackle creates a head removing projectile if one strap breaks. Had one take the rear window frame off my old scout once. I use the "choker" and have not had a problem with it so far.
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Old 03-11-2006, 08:16 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scope
What is wrong with linking them together with a shackle?
Other than the projectile it would be the wrong length.......he needs 40 and has 50
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Old 03-11-2006, 08:50 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Linking them with a shackle got someone killed last year at a mud bog back east.Dont do it!!!I know we all have, but after reading the thread about it on this board I think twice about how I tow someone out!!!
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Old 03-11-2006, 09:12 AM   #8 (permalink)
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So then using a shackle on a tree saver is a bad idea too????

Use a fawking jacket over the strap like a winch cable and b safe.
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Old 03-11-2006, 10:17 AM   #9 (permalink)
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what are you attaching it too?
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Old 03-11-2006, 10:22 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason M
So then using a shackle on a tree saver is a bad idea too????

Use a fawking jacket over the strap like a winch cable and b safe.

I would like to know the better way of doing this also...how else do you hook to a tree saver?
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Old 03-11-2006, 10:44 AM   #11 (permalink)
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That's like apples and oranges though
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Old 03-11-2006, 10:45 AM   #12 (permalink)
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What about linking them by threading the 30 foot through the eye of the 20 footer and the tag end of the 20 footer through the eye of the 30 footer. It endsup looking a lot like a square knot.
Like this.
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Old 03-11-2006, 10:49 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Also Someone with more time than I have can search through Billavista's Recovery Bible and see what the Physics of the situation call for.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billav...ery/index.html
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Old 03-11-2006, 11:05 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason M
So then using a shackle on a tree saver is a bad idea too????

Use a fawking jacket over the strap like a winch cable and b safe.
I wouldn't think so. A tree saver would be hooked up in a "basket" which would double the strength of it.
From Billa's recovery article in the tech section:
Quote:
Any good tree-saver strap (sling) will be marked with Safe Working Loads (or Working Load Limits) listed for Vertical (or straight), basket, and choker. Be sure you are using a sufficiently rated piece of gear for the way on which you rig it. Choker ratings are significantly less that straight or basket. For example, on my own professionally made (hoisting industry) web slings (tree savers) 3" wide, 2 ply nylon are marked:

Vertical 8,400 lbs

Basket 16,800 lbs

Choker 6,300 lbs

As you can see, with my 8000lb Warn 8274, it is perfectly safe as a basket hitch, marginal as a straight sling, and not a good idea to use it in a choker hitch configuration.
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Old 03-11-2006, 01:10 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trkklr77
put a stick or something throught the center so they dont bind them selfs together
Good Call

I use an old broken saltwater fishing rod for this type of thing.
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Old 03-11-2006, 01:12 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trkklr77
put a stick or something throught the center so they dont bind them selfs together
Yep... both of those ideas are damn good. Maybe I'll start carrying a 6" x 1" wooden dowel in my tool box just for that purpose.
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Old 03-11-2006, 01:20 PM   #17 (permalink)
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dont use wood get 6x2 alluminum bar, its light strong enough and you a can use it more then once or twice
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Old 03-11-2006, 02:25 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Comparing a tree saver with a shackle to a couple snatch straps joined with a shackle really is apples and oranges, completely different materials and loads. Treesavers are constructed more like lifting slings, with little to no elongation, where a snatch strap can have as much as 25% elongation when under load. The loads applied to a tree saver with a winch are slowly elevated where a snatch strap, the loads spike due to the yank. Same as standing on a bathroom scale, step onto it and it will move smoothly up to your weight, now while on it, if you jump, the needle jumps to a much larger number than your total weight due to the spike as you land.

As for joining the two snatch straps, using a piece of wood works great to keep them from becoming permanently one strap.
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Old 03-11-2006, 03:39 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Urban Wheeler
I wouldn't think so. A tree saver would be hooked up in a "basket" which would double the strength of it.
From Billa's recovery article in the tech section:
So using the correct equipment that is in good condition is the answer.

Comparing a tree saver with a clevis to dual snatch straps mated with a clevis is the same thing. If the first strap breaks (again, make sure that your equipment is rated properly and is in good condition) OR if the tree saver breaks then you have the kinetic energy stored in the second strap to pull the shackle towards you.

It is not apples to oranges, it is oranges to oranges. Both involve a "spring" of sorts on one side.

A shackle is perfectly safe, as long as your equipment is in good condition and is built to handle the job...

that being said, I do like the concept of looping the two pieces together the best.
I would think that a piece of PVC (small gauge schedule 80) would be the best "pin"
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Old 03-11-2006, 04:11 PM   #20 (permalink)
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straps

IMHO a tree saver is only 6 ft or so and does not strech by design. Used properly as a anchor should it break it stores little energy, and if you have your cable weighted like you should it would stop the tree saver. Onthe other hand a snatch strap stores energy by design to help a lighter vehicle recover a larger vehicle through the storage of energy and the mometum of the tug vehicle.Just my thoughts on the subject.
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Old 03-11-2006, 04:30 PM   #21 (permalink)
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oh i get it.....it's a brain teaser........i need a 40'er but i only have a 20 and a 30.

double-up the 20 to make a 10.....add the 30 and you got your 40
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Old 03-11-2006, 04:55 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason M

Comparing a tree saver with a clevis to dual snatch straps mated with a clevis is the same thing. If the first strap breaks (again, make sure that your equipment is rated properly and is in good condition) OR if the tree saver breaks then you have the kinetic energy stored in the second strap to pull the shackle towards you.

It is not apples to oranges, it is oranges to oranges. Both involve a "spring" of sorts on one side.

A shackle is perfectly safe, as long as your equipment is in good condition and is built to handle the job...

that being said, I do like the concept of looping the two pieces together the best.
I would think that a piece of PVC (small gauge schedule 80) would be the best "pin"
No, because how you use the strap affects it's capacity. Look at the figures again.
Quote:
For example, on my own professionally made (hoisting industry) web slings (tree savers) 3" wide, 2 ply nylon are marked:

Vertical 8,400 lbs

Basket 16,800 lbs

Choker 6,300 lbs
Wrapping it around the tree or other anchor doubles it's working capacity. It's not going to break before the strap in a "vertical" application.

I will agree that clevis' are safe to use if they are used correctly. there was a thread sometime ago on that. Too bad search is down again.
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Last edited by Urban Wheeler; 03-11-2006 at 04:56 PM.
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Old 03-11-2006, 06:20 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Comparing connecting two straps together with a D-Ring and a strap around a tree for the purposes of a winch anchor with a D-ring are apples and oranges.

The shock load (from vehicle A yanking on vehicle B) those two straps will see will most likely be far greater than that same strap and D-ring used around a tree for the purposes of winching.

Using an appropriately sized D-Ring on a strap around a tree (or other object) is perfectly safe. At least as safe as winching can be.

Personally, I use D-Rings rated for 8-10 tons. Most of the shackles sold with Warn winches, etc. are 5/8", only rated for 4.5 tons/9,000lbs. Which is ok I guess, until you attach a snatch block to it. btw - an 8.5 ton shackle is 7/8" and a 10 ton one is 1" in diamter.
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Old 03-11-2006, 06:29 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason M
So using the correct equipment that is in good condition is the answer.

Comparing a tree saver with a clevis to dual snatch straps mated with a clevis is the same thing. If the first strap breaks (again, make sure that your equipment is rated properly and is in good condition) OR if the tree saver breaks then you have the kinetic energy stored in the second strap to pull the shackle towards you.

It is not apples to oranges, it is oranges to oranges. Both involve a "spring" of sorts on one side.

A shackle is perfectly safe, as long as your equipment is in good condition and is built to handle the job...

that being said, I do like the concept of looping the two pieces together the best.
I would think that a piece of PVC (small gauge schedule 80) would be the best "pin"
Please turn off your selective reading ability for a minute and read what I typed earlier. You can not compare a snatch strap to a tree saver as they are constructed differently, loaded differently, and serve different purposes. A snatch strap uses kinetic energy, through elongation to multiply pulling force to free a stuck vehicle. A tree-saver does not elongate, and when it is loaded it is through a steady progression of force application. If something in a winch recovery breaks, you'll not only have the shackle in question to worry about, but the cable whipping around like a guiotine to worry about. In a snatch strap recovery, the strap itself can do damage, but add a 5 lb shackle and its deadly.

Here's an example of why not to use a shackle with snatch straps, 37 year old husband and father now dead.
http://michiganjeepers.com/eve/ubb.x...7753#501107753

And here's an example of forces present in a snatch strap recovery. 10K lb rated hook bent by a 20K rated strap while recovering a heep that weighs less than 4K lbs. What would have happened to a shackle connecting straps if one had been in use?



Go steal the scales from your ole lady, and try stepping on them slowly vs jumping on them and see how much more the landing is, maybe then you'll understand.
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Old 03-11-2006, 06:45 PM   #25 (permalink)
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I have read what you wrote and where you went fundamentally wrong is where you believe that a tree saver is ONLY used when winching.

I am considering when it is used as an anchor point as well.

Like I said, The proper equipment that is in good condition is the answer. Period...

If your equipment is not up to task then you are going to run into the trouble that your friend had, the jeep with a failed hook, and my friend that had a hook pass clean through his head cause he was using his winch to extract a buddy that was stuck (winch was hooked to a tree with a tree saver, the snatch strap was anchored to his reciever hitch and to the recovery hook on the jeep he was trying to extract.) The nicely painted grade 3 bolts that held the hook down failed and managed to put the hook and the strap right through the back of his head cause he was paying attention to the winch line ahead of him instead of the snatch strap....


So, even if he was using the tree saver as a anchor and running the winch to the bozo that was stuck, the potential for one section of the tree saver to fail (or both if it was in extreme disrepair) and do the exact same thing (the same amount of energy was stored in the strap wether it was attatched to the stuck jeep or to the tree) is plausiable.



I think if you remove your head out of you ass for long enough you will see that most "tree straps" are nothing more than snatch straps that are shorter.. Additionally, MOST lifting straps are not loaded correctly when used...


Again, My point was that you ALWAYS make sure that your equipment is up to par (load limits and how it is used) and that it is loaded correctly.



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