tack tack tack

[JR]

Originally Posted by Engloid

You can attribute that to the welding codes that have been established. Of course there's got to have been deaths you haven't heard about, but not nearly as many as what there could have been otherwise. If it weren't for the codes, you'd have heard of lots.
http://www.asme.org/NewsPublicPolicy...ure_Vessel.cfm

I keep telling people not to wheel with boilers, but they just don't listen.


So where does one get the welding codes and certificates?
I looked in the box the welder came in but only saw the Harbor Freight 90 day warranty.

[Engloid]

Real world experience is what the welding codes are based on...100+ years of it. Your "I've never seen..." arguments are far from meeting up to the same level of experience.

Originally Posted by JR

So where does one get the welding codes and certificates?
I looked in the box the welder came in but only saw the Harbor Freight 90 day warranty.

You may have looked in there for a good quality machine, but didn't find one also. Instead, you found a cheap one.

Look into AWS.ORG. There's a certification link there that has all kinds of info.

[JR]

Thanks, Engloid I book marked it.

Yeah, you're right about the cheap HF welder.
It did come with an assortment of welding rods though.

About the welding schools. They sound like a big hassle to me.
Isn't there a way I can just buy a welding certificate?

[ohfck]

You guys don't know anything, Longfields are the best.

[SeaBass44]

Originally Posted by JR

So where does one get the welding codes and certificates?
I looked in the box the welder came in but only saw the Harbor Freight 90 day warranty..

Originally Posted by Engloid

You may have looked in there for a good quality machine, but didn't find one also. Instead, you found a cheap one.

Look into AWS.ORG. There's a certification link there that has all kinds of info.

that was the best reply I ever read!

remember I always say, just cause you own a welder, don't make you one

[bigblackblur]

Originally Posted by Randy

for all the na sayers, here is a pic of Herman Motor Sports class 1 buggy that has the "tac tac" method of welding used on it.

no pic?

[Randy]

I cant figure out how to format their pics to post them here, so heres a link to their photo gallery.

http://www.hermanmotorsports.com/galleryN.htm

[SeaBass44]

Originally Posted by JR

Thanks, Engloid I book marked it.

Yeah, you're right about the cheap HF welder.
It did come with an assortment of welding rods though.

About the welding schools. They sound like a big hassle to me.
Isn't there a way I can just buy a welding certificate?

I'll make you one, just paypal me $100

[Randy]

heres a pic of a ram mount that I built for my last buggy. It is stich welded and held up great.

[MuddMachine]

Originally Posted by TeenyCAR

not a single weld has visible cracks in craters or along the seams. So lets stop with this pass/no pass inspection because it just doesn't mean anything in the real world of off road abuse. If ya wanna talk tech then demonstrate a technique and defend it through testing but enough with the theory.

Visible being the key word. How do you know it isnt full of hairline fractures?

There's nothing to demonstrate. Continuous is the way to go. Aside from looks, I see no real world benifit to tack tack tack. What is better about the tack tack tack vs continuous ??? Can anyone answer that?

I see it as a way for people to weld cuz they dont really know how.

[Engloid]

Originally Posted by JR

Thanks, Engloid I book marked it.

Yeah, you're right about the cheap HF welder.
It did come with an assortment of welding rods though.

About the welding schools. They sound like a big hassle to me.
Isn't there a way I can just buy a welding certificate?

A lot of the schools are a hassle...since they are often geared towards kids that have all day for training (no day job). Many schools will have night classes where you can have an instructor that will help guide you and advise you.

You probably don't need a welding cert...but I dunno what all you're doing. I would advise all those that weld things like this, and sell them, to go get a cert. It's a liability issue. Of course it doesn't mean that you always perform perfect welds.

For example, I'm now working in a shop where they have not previously had welding certifications. As the company has grown, they now see the logic behind doing it. The company cannot guarantee every weld is perfect, but we do need to have a formalized procedure for testing our welders. In other words, if somebody gets hurt and sues the company, it will be horrible if we can't show any certifications for the welders. We have to be able to prove that we did all that is reasonably possible, to ensure our welders were capable of doing the work. This can be used as a sales tool, and can lower our libility insurance...as well as the amount of liability we'd have in the event of a failure.

[Engloid]

Originally Posted by SeaBass44

I'll make you one, just paypal me $100

Hell, I'll write one up for much less...but I'm not gonna sign or stamp it.

[jasonmt]

Originally Posted by TeenyCAR

not a single weld has visible cracks in craters or along the seams. So lets stop with this pass/no pass inspection because it just doesn't mean anything in the real world of off road abuse. If ya wanna talk tech then demonstrate a technique and defend it through testing but enough with the theory.

Originally Posted by MuddMachine

Visible being the key word. How do you know it isnt full of hairline fractures?

There's nothing to demonstrate. Continuous is the way to go. Aside from looks, I see no real world benifit to tack tack tack. What is better about the tack tack tack vs continuous ??? Can anyone answer that?

I see it as a way for people to weld cuz they dont really know how.

Visual inspection on welds will only OBVIOUS surface defects, like MuddMachine said how do you know what other faults might not be visible?

I challenge all of you guys arguing "real world experience" etc. that have no training, experience or certification to give me their PCE opinion on the below weld, 316L GTAW root/316L SMAW fill and cap on 316L parent material (welded by myself):

[SeaBass44]

Originally Posted by Engloid

Hell, I'll write one up for much less...but I'm not gonna sign or stamp it.

I was going to use crayon & sign an X with P.C.E. next to the name

[SOR4X4.COM]

Awesome Thread!!!

[TeenyCAR]

I think the guys yelling real world experience would like to see it in action in order to form an opinion on it. It doesn't make much sense to me how people can say a weld is weak or strong just by looking at it once it is all said and done. How does one know by looking at the weld if proper penetration was achieved? Can one see if a root gap existed or the thickness of material welded or setting of the welder? Can a weld look good and still not perform? I think so, but the people who are using this style also have the proof to show the performance. If a weld does indeed show micoscopic or "hairline" fractures, does that mean the weld will fail? Somehow all these people who weld this way with all the fractures that you infer must be present still continue to do so because the weld has not failed. Somehow there is a discrepancy between the 100+ years of testing and the welding used for the usage it sees in this application. How many of you guys preaching code and certification have had every weld you ever did inspected? How many of your welds when they were inspected at the microscopic level failed? My friend in Colorado welds for a living and few and far between are welds inspected to this level of testing and there have also been times when the welds did not pass inspection and had to be reperformed. This was explained to me as common in the weld testing industry by the examiner himself. I have no doubt my welds wouldn't pass inspection, but I bet most of yours wouldn't either when viewed on such a detailed basis. The point of the inspection is a standard to reach for, but I'd bet that for every weld out there in the industry performed by "certified, professional welders" few would pass this detailed of inspection. Most of the inspectors that I saw while working in this industry only visually inspected the weld to make sure there was no undercutting or obvious problems. As mentioned early when a certified inspector comes out to look at a cage for racing he doesn't go through this highly detailed inspection you guys speak of, but he probably still passes the cage as safe for racing. I'm just saying this detailed standard preached is good for a standard and shows flaws on the microscopic level, but must not mean all that much since it is rarely used in the big picture of welding that occurs every day.

[Engloid]

Originally Posted by TeenyCAR

Somehow there is a discrepancy between the 100+ years of testing and the welding used for the usage it sees in this application.

As mentioned above, many people "over engineer" or add in twice as many reinforcements they they'd need. If they would only do the welds better, they may not use as many. In other words, you can put 4 poor welds down and achieve the strength of 2 that are done correctly.

Originally Posted by TeenyCAR

How many of you guys preaching code and certification have had every weld you ever did inspected?

I have worked places where EVERY weld was inspected...at fitup, and after each weld pass.

Originally Posted by TeenyCAR

How many of your welds when they were inspected at the microscopic level failed?

Typically, microscopic testing is done to qualify the procedure... because if you destroy the part in testing, you typically no longer have the part to use.

Originally Posted by TeenyCAR

My friend in Colorado welds for a living and few and far between are welds inspected to this level of testing and there have also been times when the welds did not pass inspection and had to be reperformed.

THe point is that not everything gets inspected. Ok. I agree with you. Does that mean that those welds are unimportant?

Originally Posted by TeenyCAR

I'd bet that for every weld out there in the industry performed by "certified, professional welders" few would pass this detailed of inspection. Most of the inspectors that I saw while working in this industry only visually inspected the weld to make sure there was no undercutting or obvious problems.

They just can't cut a pipeline apart and take samples out of it for every weld. Then how would you use the pipe with holes in it? That's why we have xray magnetic partical, ultrasound, eddy current and visual inspection.

Originally Posted by TeenyCAR

As mentioned early when a certified inspector comes out to look at a cage for racing he doesn't go through this highly detailed inspection you guys speak of, but he probably still passes the cage as safe for racing.

and as I mentioned...how many are Certified Welding Inspectors? I'd bet that very few are. A guy that's inspecting the chassis is also there inspecting all the rest of the car, right? If he knows little about welding, does he really want to focus on it and fight an argument against somebody that may know it better than he does? It's like that in every industry. I worked in one plant doing pressure vessel work. One customer inspector may know material traceability, and wear us out nitpicking it. The next guy may do the same with paperwork and weld maps. The next guy may do the same with welding procedures and qualifications.

[kwrangln]

How about some perspective here.

Every now and then someone will post up a build thread for their new buggy/heep/toy/whatever. Someone will notice that they have the frame mounts for their suspension links mounted in single shear.

The masses will pile in telling them that the mounts will fail, they aren't designed right, and that single shear is weaker.

Suggestions will be made on how to change them easily to a much better double shear mount.

The origional poster will argue that his last ride had the link mounts in single shear and never had a problem, his buddy ran this setup without problem, and how strong he made the mounts to make up for what must be an inferior design.

More folks will join in the arguement stating past experiences, basic engineering practices, common sense, and may even throw some numbers out there for shear strength of the fasteners.

The origional poster gives in, redesignes his mounts to be a double shear setup, and posts up the pics.

Everyone involved in the thread tells him what a good decision he made, and pats themselves on the back from saving the poor guy from disaster.

I'm sure we've all seen threads exactly like what I just wrote, they aren't that uncommon on the board.














Now replace single shear with "tack tack tack" and double shear with "continuous weld", its the same arguement, different topic, but it fits the outline to a T. You're arguing to support a practice that goes against what every professional welder is taught because it works for you/your buddy/whatever, so it must be right and the entire welding industry is wrong.

[Ian from Xtreme]

Hey Engloid,

The pipeline pic on your website.....is that using a Surface Tension Transfer machine?

[Engloid]

Originally Posted by Ian from Xtreme

Hey Engloid,

The pipeline pic on your website.....is that using a Surface Tension Transfer machine?

Nope.


Ian from Xtreme? THe guy on the tv show right? haha!

[mustange70]

Somewhere in this thread the mig vs. tig question cam up, this is a bit of topic, but there is a variation of the tig process call high amp tig (used for tig root passes), and although i am not to familar with that particular process, i do know (watched a guy put a root in with it too) that you can put roots in dang near as quick, if not quicker than mig, but thats a whole nurther thread (jasonmt, wasn't it ludwigs in calgary that developed it?)

Also there's the whole debate of a good looking weld means a good weld and there's no way to tell otherwise, well not true. If you are watching when putting the weld down (example, downhand mig or stick, mig the puddle gets ahead of the electrode, or slag gets trapped ahead of the electrode when doing stick resulting in slag inclusions among other things, and the mid issues results in a big lack of fusion/cold lapping-which is something that is difficult to pick up on x-ray) you can learn and see what happens when some issues arise.

A good example of this just happened with a buddy of mine doing a welding procedure, it was with the metalcore process (spray transfer, high depostion rates) and welded in the flat, but the entire weld failed do to improper techique resulting in lack of fusion along the entire plate, but the weld looked really good and even passed x-ray but failed every other test, tensile, guided bend, and charpy testing.

I think it would be very interesting for some of the professionals in this post who are qualified inspectors and weld process/procedure writers to write a "non legally binding purely hypothetical to cover their asses" weld procedure and inspection process for a typical roll cage welded joint connection. this wouldn't be for the purpose of proving anyone wrong, but more to illustrate what would be deemed "sufficient" if this were in an industry that required such documentation and inspection. based on a sound structural design from the engineers, the process and inspection would dictate what is good or good enough, and what is bad...

That is not a bad idea, however i am not sure if a cage or something similar would fall under the structure classification or if there is a vehicle code it would fall under, but the structural code seems the most reasonable, however i personally do not deal the aws code for structural welding, but i do deal with the csa codes (47.1/w59), and i could write something up but i don't have access to the proper machine (only a miller arc machine and a little 110 hobart mig set up on self shielding flux core wire).

[JR]

Originally Posted by SeaBass44

remember I always say, just cause you own a welder, don't make you one

First of all, I read the four page instruction manual...twice!!

Second, I got a B+ in metal shop back in high school. The teacher said he had never seen welds that look quite like mine before

Third, well, there is no third thing accept that my mom likes the way my welds look and at the end of the day, that's all that really matters.

BTW SeaBass, $100 is too much for a welding certificate. I don't need to be that well certified. What can I get for 25 bucks?

Hey Mr Engloid, what do you think about 7018? I've always heard it's the best welding rod.

[mustange70]

7018:depends on the application.

[kwrangln]

Originally Posted by mustange70

7018:depends on the application.

Me thinks ya might want to recalibrate your sarcasm meter, its reading a little off.

What year of engineering school do they reach up your ass, grab your sense of humor by the neck and rip it out?

[TeenyCAR]

I've heard you can weld anything with 7018! That is, as long as you can see what you're doing.