4340, 300M, 1541H, why?

[another Lance]

so I was shopping for rear axle shafts and not many companies make the rears in 4340, or 300m. just 1541H, why is this? there are plenty of 4340 front setups.

[Gunmetalcruz]

just call Jack and quit screwing around. If I would of skipped past the first steps and went right to the "drivehomes" I would have saved so much time,$ and effort.

[BLUE VEIN THROBBER]

Originally Posted by Gunmetalcruz

just call Jack and quit screwing around. If I would of skipped past the first steps and went right to the "drivehomes" I would have saved so much time,$ and effort.

your running Jack's axles front & Rear, how much did you pay for them..


i want to get them i just cant afford them right now but i will be getting them for sure i think get his axles will be strong enough for my rig the way i drive, Plus much cheaper then rebuilding a set of Rock Wells

[BLUE VEIN THROBBER]

Originally Posted by another Lance

so I was shopping for rear axle shafts and not many companies make the rears in 4340, or 300m. just 1541H, why is this? there are plenty of 4340 front setups.

well what axle are you running in the rear, i runn the 14 bolt, from what Yukon told me there 4340 axles were like only 35% stronger than stockers, Plus they cost way to much IMO.... i was better off going to the junk yard getting the axles for like $25 Each on one of there 1/2 days, then when you break who the fawk cares, 20 - 30min. repair & drink another COLD BEER

[Weasel]

Try Poly Performance, Sandy Cone, Strange...they all make high alloy axle shafts.

[beyer05]

Originally Posted by BLUE VEIN THROBBER

well what axle are you running in the rear, i runn the 14 bolt, from what Yukon told me there 4340 axles were like only 35% stronger than stockers, Plus they cost way to much IMO.... i was better off going to the junk yard getting the axles for like $25 Each on one of there 1/2 days, then when you break who the fawk cares, 20 - 30min. repair & drink another COLD BEER

Don't forget it could very well destroy your detroit locker when the axle breaks!

That would take 2 or 3 beers!

[fifesjeep]

Originally Posted by another Lance

so I was shopping for rear axle shafts and not many companies make the rears in 4340, or 300m. just 1541H, why is this?

1541H is a High Alloy steel... Which in most cases is slightly better than OEM shafts... 4340 shafts are about 35 to 40% stronger than OEM shafts... Depending on the treatment. Anything that deals with high torque you should always use the 4140, 4340 and 8620 series... But with those Alloys you're gonna pay some serious green due to the additives that have been introduced into the material for the added strength and wear resistance... I think a lot of shafts are also made from 1040? Don't qoute me for sure... I'm scratching my head... but that's what runs across my mind at the moment... I'll have a few more beers and I should be able to remember
To answer why they use the 1541H is that it's a high alloy steel.. that has better qualities than the oem shafts... Machinability of this material is good as-well.

[MC]

Also not all 4340 material is created equal. Alot of import axle shafts arent made from good material. What this means is that they are sometimes advertised as 4340 but what you end up with is closer to 4130 and sometimes the hardness and tensile strength from one shaft can vary alot to another from the same order. Their are alo9t of good axle shafts out there and most are a better choice than stock but not all are created equal....depends if you want a budget wanna be 4340 or a serious axle.

[fifesjeep]

Yup, that's why I mentioned it depends on the heat-treatment etc... Some company's will coat their shafts will a ceramic coating... some shafts get nitrided etc... It all depends on the purpose... company... and foremost important the material used etc..

[tjmark]

just call jack and B done with it. In the long run you will Be money ahead.

Like stated what will your detriot cost when you snap another shaft and it takes the locker with it.. Then the time to break it all down and start over...

I'd save up the coin till you can do it right the first time.... And make it your last..

[Gunmetalcruz]

After some mixed batch's of cromo shafts in the rear that had differant levels of heat treat or quality and after also taking out the side of my new 70 arb I was over it. 1541 doesn't last for hopping and throttle hounds. Superior well I'll be collecting social security before they ship. Everyone talks about the ultimate front set up. I break more rear shafts going for wall climbs. IMO it's a package deal. It's a complete package build for abuse. Don't forget about the 300m drive slugs. This fall I ran two of the hardest trails in the country. From being bound up I stalled my 400hp 383/th400/3.8 atlas at least six times. That amount of torque that 44 tsl's filled with 30 gallons of water put on axle shafts is not pretty to stall the motor. The shafts laughed at it. Call him solution solved; one of the nicest people you will ever deal with.

[Gordon]

what's the scoop on the front CTN shaft in the middle picture. It looks like there is a weld in the Yoke? Is the shaft splined into the yoke and then welded on the inside to retain it? and is it really a CTM shaft that just says CTN or what?

[Gunmetalcruz]

It's the angle of the pic, on the engraving.
Here's the post on the shafts.
/forum/general-4x4-discussion/519779-ctm-axles-drive-home-shafts.html

[GOAT1]

To answer your direct question the advantage if the 4340 and 300M front shafts is that you can heat treat or harden the yokes or ears. Stock or 1541 axles are only case hardened on the shaft and the yokes are not hardened. A 35 spline rear axle is pretty strong just by it's size and shape, upgrading to an alloy steel is not always necessary.

To clear up some other questions and responses in this tread:

Most OEM shafts are 1040-1050 but some may also be 1541. Most aftermarket stock replacement shaft are 1541 and most of the custom rear flanged axles like all the Currie, Dynatrac, Dutchman, and Moser rear shafts are 1541. 1541 is a plain high carbon steel similar to 1040 but with added manganese for better hardenability, but there is not enough alloying elements in it to be classified as an "alloy" steel. 1040 & 1541 are used because it is cheap and good enough for what is required by stock axles, they heat treat 1040 & 1541 by induction hardening which is a production form of case hardening, it is fast, cheap and works very well, 1541 is able be be hardened to a greater depth (better hardenability) than 1040/1050 and therefore stronger. 1541 is not much more expensive than 1040/1050, it probably equates to only a dollar or two more per axle, when your dealing with the scale of OEM axle production numbers that is a lot of money, but with aftermarket axle production numbers that is not that big of a deal and the consumers would pay that extra amount without question for the increased strength.

4140, 4340 and 300M are true alloy steels. 4140 is alloyed with chromium, molydenum and 4340 with chromiun, molydenum and nickel. 300M is also called 4340 modified because it basically 4340 with silicon added. The strength of steel is generally directly related to the hardness, the harder you can get the steel, the stronger it is (tensile strength) but you generally loose toughness. These alloys give the steel increased hardenability and good toughness at higher hardness/strength levels, they can be induction hardened but their purpose and advantage is that they can be thru hardened because of their better hardenability. 4340 has better hardenability than 4140 so is can be heat treated harder and thus stronger than 4140. 300M has a similar hardenability to 4340 but the added silicon gives it more toughness at higher hardness levels. The 4140 and 4340 raw material is available in commercial and aircraft quality and 300M is generally only available in aircraft quality. Aircraft quality means it is vacuum melted to minimize the impurities but costs more. Most 4140 and 4340 axles are made of commercial quality steel. The material cost differrences between 1541 and commercial 4140/4340 is not that great, again it probably only equates to only a few dollars more per axle, the big cost difference is from the increased heat treating costs and the smaller production runs of 4340 axles. 4140 and 4340 axles have to be thru hardened in an oven which costs more than induction hardening of a 1541 or 1040 axle. 300M should be heat treated in a vacuum furnace and other expensive process to make it correctly plus the added material costs for aircraft quality materal make the end product more expensive. 300M axles are usually custom made, a few sets at a time which adds to the production costs.

[another Lance]

thank you for that explanation, thats what I wanted.

[paulevans76]

this is why I cough up $20 a year.

[tjmark]

Man those shafts are just plain SEXY..

[another Lance]

hell yeah they are, if I evar break the Yukons I ordered, I will be getting the CTMs. or some rockwells.

[roundeye]

Originally Posted by GOAT1

To answer your direct question the advantage if the 4340 and 300M front shafts is that you can heat treat or harden the yokes or ears. Stock or 1541 axles are only case hardened on the shaft and the yokes are not hardened. A 35 spline rear axle is pretty strong just by it's size and shape, upgrading to an alloy steel is not always necessary.

To clear up some other questions and responses in this tread:

Most OEM shafts are 1040-1050 but some may also be 1541. Most aftermarket stock replacement shaft are 1541 and most of the custom rear flanged axles like all the Currie, Dynatrac, Dutchman, and Moser rear shafts are 1541. 1541 is a plain high carbon steel similar to 1040 but with added manganese for better hardenability, but there is not enough alloying elements in it to be classified as an "alloy" steel. 1040 & 1541 are used because it is cheap and good enough for what is required by stock axles, they heat treat 1040 & 1541 by induction hardening which is a production form of case hardening, it is fast, cheap and works very well, 1541 is able be be hardened to a greater depth (better hardenability) than 1040/1050 and therefore stronger. 1541 is not much more expensive than 1040/1050, it probably equates to only a dollar or two more per axle, when your dealing with the scale of OEM axle production numbers that is a lot of money, but with aftermarket axle production numbers that is not that big of a deal and the consumers would pay that extra amount without question for the increased strength.

4140, 4340 and 300M are true alloy steels. 4140 is alloyed with chromium, molydenum and 4340 with chromiun, molydenum and nickel. 300M is also called 4340 modified because it basically 4340 with silicon added. The strength of steel is generally directly related to the hardness, the harder you can get the steel, the stronger it is (tensile strength) but you generally loose toughness. These alloys give the steel increased hardenability and good toughness at higher hardness/strength levels, they can be induction hardened but their purpose and advantage is that they can be thru hardened because of their better hardenability. 4340 has better hardenability than 4140 so is can be heat treated harder and thus stronger than 4140. 300M has a similar hardenability to 4340 but the added silicon gives it more toughness at higher hardness levels. The 4140 and 4340 raw material is available in commercial and aircraft quality and 300M is generally only available in aircraft quality. Aircraft quality means it is vacuum melted to minimize the impurities but costs more. Most 4140 and 4340 axles are made of commercial quality steel. The material cost differrences between 1541 and commercial 4140/4340 is not that great, again it probably only equates to only a few dollars more per axle, the big cost difference is from the increased heat treating costs and the smaller production runs of 4340 axles. 4140 and 4340 axles have to be thru hardened in an oven which costs more than induction hardening of a 1541 or 1040 axle. 300M should be heat treated in a vacuum furnace and other expensive process to make it correctly plus the added material costs for aircraft quality materal make the end product more expensive. 300M axles are usually custom made, a few sets at a time which adds to the production costs.

Now that's an explanation! Nice work Drew!

[300sniper]

Originally Posted by GOAT1

To answer your direct question...

great answer to the question.

i am sure ctm makes some of, if not the best shafts but that does not answer the original question.

[BLUE VEIN THROBBER]

Originally Posted by Gunmetalcruz

It's the angle of the pic, on the engraving.
Here's the post on the shafts.
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=519779

what is the splin count? 40?

[Gunmetalcruz]

Front's are 35 spline. Rears are 37 at the side gears ,40 at the hub. As far as the metal vrs. metal question, The poly guys handled that nicely. I don't know alot about the in's and out of metalurgy. I know how to peel out and what breaks and what doensn't. Seems like Lance broke his 70 and needs justification for the hard earned money he about to spend. It's nice when someone already paved the way and you aren't guineau pigging everything.

[Big Jake]

Blue Vein Throbber had asked earlier, I may have missed it, Gunmetalcruz, how much were the axles, joints, and endcaps?

Thanks
Jake

[Gunmetalcruz]

retail prices are 3500.00 front including joints,1500.00 rear with bolt on hub, 225.00 for the drive flanges.

[fifesjeep]

Originally Posted by Gunmetalcruz

retail prices are 3500.00 front including joints,1500.00 rear with bolt on hub, 225.00 for the drive flanges.

Holy sheep shit batman! Why the fuck don't you just find some fucking rockwells... Military auctions etc... you can purchased a troop transport truck with the 2.5 ton rockwells etc.. for less than what you payed for those shafts..