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Old 06-19-2007, 05:54 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Betcha can't solve my problem!

Here's the lowdown,

97 TJ
Ford HP 60 Skyy Histeer, Clayton Longarms, completely rebuilt.
Just aligned it, balanced and rotated tires, tightened steering arms studs, tightened control arms, tightened track bar, checked bushings, etc.
Posted on this before.......

When hitting certain bumps the steering will jump back and forth out of control, the preverbial "death wobble."

I've posted before on this subject without much response. Anyways I need a definative answer this time, I'm sick of it, sick of it to the point I wanna sell it or take the plasma to it. I know that a jeep on 37" tires and 1ton axles isn't gonna be a Cadillac but I know people just like me DD these rigs on even larger tires just fine.


Here's a pick of the catastrophe, will start here and see what you guys think. Appreciate the help in advance.

Nic


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Old 06-19-2007, 06:02 PM   #2 (permalink)
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put some BBs or airsoft pellets in your tires. re-balance your tires. wobble is caused by tires shaking. thats all there is to it. problem solved.
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Old 06-19-2007, 06:06 PM   #3 (permalink)
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don't think it's that easy but i'll look into it, does anyone has the link for the Airsoft volumes per tire size, thanks, Nic-
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Old 06-19-2007, 06:09 PM   #4 (permalink)
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balance (as said above)
caster/camber (I dont' remember which)
bent rim
flat drag link + panhard bar at angle

possible reasons
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Old 06-19-2007, 06:09 PM   #5 (permalink)
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My wifes 97 TJ with stock D30 and 33" radials has the same problem.

Cause as of yet is unknown but getting worse. All suspension components are solid, tires balanced, etc.

EDIT: I'll have to check the drag link to panhard/track bar. Can't recall if they are parallel or not now.

Last edited by Travis Waldher; 06-19-2007 at 06:12 PM.
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Old 06-19-2007, 06:13 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Ok let me add, this, I have checked rims, balance etc. I'm thinking it's in the design, because it'll run 70Mph down the high way no problem, hit and huge pot hole, still fine, find the right combination of rough road and there I am again locking the brakes trying to control the jeep without wrecking.
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Old 06-19-2007, 06:13 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Caster Problem.
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Old 06-19-2007, 06:15 PM   #8 (permalink)
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I am seeing these angles correctly? Drag link and panhard don't look anywhere near aligned. But I might not be seeing it right.
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Old 06-19-2007, 06:15 PM   #9 (permalink)
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I did min. caster and max toe-in on my XJ and that took are of it. I did front SUA leafs on my TJ and it is the best handling, no death wobble havin' TJ around.

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Old 06-19-2007, 06:16 PM   #10 (permalink)
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My guess, and this is a guess. Your panhard and your draplink are nowhere close to parrallel or near the same length.
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Old 06-19-2007, 06:16 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
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I am seeing these angles correctly? Drag link and panhard don't look anywhere near aligned. But I might not be seeing it right.
that's why I mentioned that in my post. The difference looks pretty extreme there.
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Old 06-19-2007, 06:18 PM   #12 (permalink)
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here is a chart. its not the one i usually find, but it looks like its got the same data. i noticed a difference in my tires when i put pellets in them a few years back. FYI, since going to full hydro, i have no more wobble issues.

http://www.imiproducts.com/lib/pdf/e...tity-chart.pdf

remember, too much weight inside the tire is OK, not enough weight, is not OK.
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Old 06-19-2007, 06:21 PM   #13 (permalink)
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do you have any type of steering stabilizer on there? would that help?
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Old 06-19-2007, 06:23 PM   #14 (permalink)
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steering stabilizer(s) or hydro assist. Also it should be attatched to the tie rod and not the drag link, IMHO.

Good luck bro,
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Old 06-19-2007, 06:24 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Try getting new kingpin springs and/or putting a fender washer between the springs and the caps/arms. Simple, cheap, and often effective.
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Old 06-19-2007, 06:25 PM   #16 (permalink)
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OK I totally agree and looked at the myself, it was the same problem with the Tera LCG kit when it came out and pretty much a rule of geometry. With that being said would it be causing bumpsteer, and how come it only does it sometimes in the exact same spots of the road. Would a hydro assist ram correct this or should I do something else, I could either go back to lower on the knuckle with the tierod or, move the axle end of the track bar up and the chassis end down. I'm so low I need to anyways to give myself some more oil pan clearance. On another note, can loose kingpins cause this?


Also do the drag link and trac bar need to be the same length or in the same plane? or both? Thanks
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Old 06-19-2007, 06:28 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Sorry some of you posted while I was, you can see if you look close at the tab where I had my stabilizer mounted, no dice, also I have been thinking the kingpins didn't get tightened all the way on the rebuild, everything in the axle is new, although I don't think I got the kingpins tightened to the 600 ft.lbs spec.
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Old 06-19-2007, 06:29 PM   #18 (permalink)
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yes you def have an issue w/ the track bar (needs to be same angle as the drag link) but that is not causing the death wobble. That will cause it to steer toward the pass side under HARD braking when the front dives.

the issue you have is wiht the tension on the king pin spring.

pull the arms and shim the springs to put more tension on the knuckles.

u had a similar issue briefly om my 97 powerstroke after swappin in a king pin D60. shimmed it problem solved.

my .02
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Old 06-19-2007, 06:31 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blt2Krawl View Post
With that being said would it be causing bumpsteer
Yes, as your axle moves left to right, the distance between your pitman arm and knuckle is changing due to the drag link and panhard moving through different arcs.

edit: ^^^^^ says I am wrong on this

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and how come it only does it sometimes in the exact same spots of the road.
just luck I guess
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Would a hydro assist ram correct this or should I do something else,
no, but it would probably mask the problem.

Quote:
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I could either go back to lower on the knuckle with the tierod or, move the axle end of the track bar up and the chassis end down.
wouldn't hurt
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On another note, can loose kingpins cause this?
yes
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Also do the drag link and trac bar need to be the same length or in the same plane? or both? Thanks
as close as possible
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Last edited by apeters89; 06-19-2007 at 06:32 PM.
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Old 06-19-2007, 06:42 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Here's the lowdown,

97 TJ
Ford HP 60 Skyy Histeer, Clayton Longarms, completely rebuilt.
Just aligned it, balanced and rotated tires, tightened steering arms studs, tightened control arms, tightened track bar, checked bushings, etc.
Posted on this before.......

When hitting certain bumps the steering will jump back and forth out of control, the preverbial "death wobble."

I've posted before on this subject without much response. Anyways I need a definative answer this time, I'm sick of it, sick of it to the point I wanna sell it or take the plasma to it. I know that a jeep on 37" tires and 1ton axles isn't gonna be a Cadillac but I know people just like me DD these rigs on even larger tires just fine.


Here's a pick of the catastrophe, will start here and see what you guys think. Appreciate the help in advance.

Nic


what i have to write you will not believe it. Here in so. cali. call that the death wobbles. I have seen it with leaf spring front ends, ifs front ends, coilover, 3 link and four link front ends It usually happens when you hit a bumb or at about 25-35 mph. if you speed up as it wobbles it will go away but what a ride you will have. im i right???? I have seen it shake sooo hard that it brakes the wheel studs off . In the old school day it only happened to 38 inch tires and bigger.. Now i see it at the shop with tires as small as 31'S the problem isnt in your steering or suspension or balancing (guarrenteed) its the tires believe it or not! try rototating tires back to front,left to right and chriscross,if that dont work double steering shocks, if that dont work hydraulic assist will take it away. or change out tires......
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Old 06-19-2007, 06:48 PM   #21 (permalink)
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DW is either worn parts, bad geometery or both.
Since everything looks new it's got to be geometery.
5 degrees caster, .125"- .1875" toe-in.
That should work right


BUT

I'm not getting the gist of your componenets. Let me see if I'm getting this right.

Tie rod is set maybe 7" most infront of the kingpin (KP)
Drag link maybe 4.5" infront of the KP
How long is your pitman, center to center?

If the swing ratio of the pitman arm is not the same as the drag link point on your hi-steer arm you ultimately change your steering ratio and sensitivity.

It looks like the pitman reaches over the tierod and has barely enough room to turn.
Will the pitman side drag link nut hit the tie rod while turning?
Will a driver's side bump smack the tie rod into the pitman arm?

You might consider an inverted-t steering, move the box forward and get a longer intermediate shaft.

Check your angles.
Check for witness marks (rubbing) on your components.
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Old 06-19-2007, 06:54 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Caster.
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Old 06-19-2007, 07:08 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Another vote for shimming the kingpin springs.

Betcha this solves your problem!
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Old 06-19-2007, 07:30 PM   #24 (permalink)
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shim the kp's and then set your toe in a little bit more. you can balance again, but I would rotate first. the toe and the right amound of caster are the biggest in keeping you pointed straight when everything is new. the drag/panhard angles cause bump steer. most aren't perfect from teh factory, or even close and they still don't have death wobble, just bump steer.
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Old 06-19-2007, 07:33 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by f0cker View Post
I am seeing these angles correctly? Drag link and panhard don't look anywhere near aligned. But I might not be seeing it right.
The first 3 things I thought of was: 1) the trac-bar angle looks out of line with the angle of the draglink, 2) the king pins could use a rebuild (two people that I know really well had this shimmy problem, one was a Dodge 60 and the other was a Chevy 60, and after much troubleshooting, the kingpin rebuilds solved the problem, 3) you might have an incorrect caster angle.

Mine is setup to -5 degrees caster and thats just a rough measurement of the inner c of a 79 Ford HP 60. I measured the toe-in and toe-out on the tires and the jeep tracks straight down the road.
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